Deep squats and femur degeneration

[TommyEurope]

Hi Mark,

I had a discussion with my friend who is a human kinetics major, about squats. Basically, he said that that deep squats (we'll define deep as your definition of deep ie the hip crease dips below the knee) will grind and degenerate the femur which will lead to problems in the future. He said he had a discussion with a physio about it.

Can you comment on the merit of what he said?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Sure. Ask him to show you his data.

[Polynomial]

Groundbreaking research suggests that all toilets be built so that our thighs hit at most parallel when we sit down to shit.

[TomC]

To misappropriate one of my favorite lines from Starting Strength v1, I also think you should explore with this gentleman whether squatting may injure the souls of those perform them. The data in support of that hypothesis are likely to be equally compelling.

[Mark Rippetoe]

TE has a history of stupid questions on this board. I'm guessing he does the same elsewhere.

[kziwarrior]

Sounds to me like the same BS that keeps so many people from squatting (i.e. "it's bad for your knees" "it will hurt your back").

People that are really dedicated to science or any other discipline take everything with a grain of salt. They, well the good ones also don't rely on just one or two studies, theories or ideas. They take evidence from numerous studies and observations mixed with common sense (when available) over time to reasonably deduce a sound foundation. Sadly, however many of these people are subdued by their own ideas and are too eager to believe early, or worse yet poorly developed studies and research data.

That said if common sense is used most things in lifting as in life are safe if not incredibly useful in moderation but may become dangerous in excess or with improper guidance.

[TommyEurope]

Hi Mark,

I apologize for giving the impression that I'm trolling. I was actually asking a serious question because my friend is very much against deep squats. When he had the discussion, he said something about elite athletes being injured over time because they do deep squats (I think he was referring to the femur).

Anyways, aside from the data comment which I will ask him to provide, can you please using biomechanics, explain how deep squats won't screw up your femur/hips.

Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

No, I can't, because it would be answering a question that is not valid, and I don't have time since there are about 60 questions in line. Just because some jackass asserts a thing does not mean that it is worthy of refutation. If the same guy tells you that every space shuttle launch perturbs the Earth's orbit, and that the cumulative effects are just about to start the process of the loss of the atmosphere into space, thus creating a vacuum that will destroy all life on the planet in approximately 36 hours, would you deem this necessary to refute? How much time would you spend explaining to him why this cannot happen? Would not your time be spent better doing other things? And if you devise a concise explanation, why would you assume he would understand?

[kziwarrior]

Hi Mark,

I apologize for giving the impression that I'm trolling. I was actually asking a serious question because my friend is very much against deep squats. When he had the discussion, he said something about elite athletes being injured over time because they do deep squats (I think he was referring to the femur).

Anyways, aside from the data comment which I will ask him to provide, can you please using biomechanics, explain how deep squats won't screw up your femur/hips.

Thanks.

It's essentially the same BS as people saying the full ROM bench-press screws up your shoulders. ALL lifts are capable of causing injury and long-term damage if not done proper and/or with high loads that have not been built to correctly (which, IMHO is normally the case with the bench and should injuries). Get SS if you haven't already, the relations between the anatomy and proper form are explained in very high detail. This allows you (or anyone with common sense) to see how the body functions under a load and how proper form is handled in a manner that will reduce or eliminate wear/damage to the body compared to an improper movement even at a lower weight or restricted ROM. Particularly with the squat and knees, the knee is NOT at its strongest (structurally speaking) until a squat is deep enough for all the forces to be balanced by all the surrounding muscles (i.e depth to engage the hamstrings). But of course, as mentioned in the book and here, you can go to deep and through everything out of alignment.

[spur]

Hi Mark,

I apologize for giving the impression that I'm trolling. I was actually asking a serious question because my friend is very much against deep squats. When he had the discussion, he said something about elite athletes being injured over time because they do deep squats (I think he was referring to the femur).

Anyways, aside from the data comment which I will ask him to provide, can you please using biomechanics, explain how deep squats won't screw up your femur/hips.

Thanks.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2007/03/popular-biomechanics-by-mark-r.tpl

Maybe you need to subscribe to crossfit journal for answers.

[di1an]

I used to hear similar 'arguments' from friends over the years. I don't anymore. Why? Because I stopped fucking hanging out with those pussies. Isn't it funny how people who deplore proper squatting have never actually TRIED it with a weight above 60lbs? Same with DL's. Might I suggest you simply tell your friend he's entitled to his opinion, ignore it, do your squats, get huge, then see what he has to say. Studying for a Msc, PhD, etc, on a subject doesn't automatically make an opinion correct.
Actually doing the thing does, because it's no longer just an opinion. Now go squat deep and enjoy being a real man.