Starting Strength for Bouldering?

[mipegg]

Hey.

Im a 17 year old male. 5 ft 11, 70 kilos. I decided that I wanted to get serious about my training for bouldering at the start of the summer and after research decided that starting strength was the best program for a noob in my position to build a decent base to work off later on down the line.

Now 2 1/2-3 months on and only 2 months until the competition season begins I'm beginning to think about how to actually help my sport, I am still seeing gains from SS (albeit smaller gains than before) but it seems that now the strength gains seem to not be feeding into my bouldering. You're only as strong as your weakest point and that's gone from being the power in my legs/strength of my core (2 things SS improved massively) to my pulling strength and general static strength (somethings which are not really being worked by it so much)

So here is my question, am I better seeing SS through until I truly stall then move onto something else or is there a way to modify the program* to better suit my needs

Greatly appreciate any time taken over this.
Thanks


*Yes, I know if it gets modified its no longer SS

[Mark Rippetoe]

You need to be skinny to do competitive bouldering? Perhaps I don't understand the sport.

[ZenMonkey]

I used to be a competitive speed climber so perhaps I can be of assistance. I think SS would be fine but you need to consider that something like Yoga a few days a week and climbing a few days a week should be how you train. You could organize SS on Monday and Friday (A/B) and then choose a couple days for a combined climbing and yoga session. Maybe even doing Squat, OH Press, DL one day a week and choosing 2 days to climb and 1 day for yoga. Youre really going to have to gauge how your body responds to different variables. When I was at the top of my climbing game I was organizing my climbing like Texas Method (Volume, Recovery, Intensity) and doing yoga on Recovery day and the day after intensity day.

My 2 cents

[JLascek]

Not to disparage ZenMonkey, but I'd have to hear a pretty compelling argument to accept that yoga provides a valid performance gain in any physical quality.

mipegg, how long does a bout of bouldering last? How many bouts are typically in a competition? How much would conditioning factor into this? I wouldn't imagine it's a whole lot (especially when you are stronger), and I would assume you would just need to have specific practice in the activity of bouldering in addition to your strength training. In such a case, you'd figure out if adding in x number of bouldering sessions would require you to remove a strength workout. I wouldn't think this would be necessary, but I suppose this would depend on your skill in bouldering. But, I'm assuming a lot of shit.

Don't be afraid to eat though.

[mipegg]

For climbing adding additional unneeded mass is a little bit counter productive, means your having to put extra pressure on the holds which results in more of a tax on the forearms and losing grip strength quicker. Im just interested to see if there's any way of actually altering SS to be more functional for my sport as currently its not contributing much to my main weaknesses.

As for Zen monkey, that does sound like a pretty good idea. At the moment Im like this:

Monday: workout A
Tue:light boulder for fun
Wed: workout B
Thur:off
Fri:Workout A
Sat:heavy boulder session
Sun: off.

[tikuane]

Interesting. I would have assumed that weighted chins/pulls would have been meat and potatoes for you? Did your skill training provided sufficient strength by itself?

[Mark Rippetoe]

For climbing adding additional unneeded mass is a little bit counter productive, means your having to put extra pressure on the holds which results in more of a tax on the forearms and losing grip strength quicker.

This assumes that the added mass is fat, that you haven't increased your upper-body pulling strength, and that you would have no control over the amount of weight you gain. In general, you're thinking like an endurance athlete: you think a bigger motor slows down the car.

[jgrube]

Just add 3 sets of 5 reps of weighted pullups to workout b. Adding weight 2.5 lbs at a time to a dip belt when you can get the 5 reps for all 3 sets. Your pulling problems are fixed.

And I also agree with mark's above post.

[ZenMonkey]

Not to disparage ZenMonkey, but I'd have to hear a pretty compelling argument to accept that yoga provides a valid performance gain in any physical quality.

mipegg, how long does a bout of bouldering last? How many bouts are typically in a competition? How much would conditioning factor into this? I wouldn't imagine it's a whole lot (especially when you are stronger), and I would assume you would just need to have specific practice in the activity of bouldering in addition to your strength training. In such a case, you'd figure out if adding in x number of bouldering sessions would require you to remove a strength workout. I wouldn't think this would be necessary, but I suppose this would depend on your skill in bouldering. But, I'm assuming a lot of shit.

Don't be afraid to eat though.


Yoga is highly beneficial. You need to be able to have serious body control and be able to hold positions for an extended period of time. What do I know though, I only got paid to do it and won most of the SE speed climbing meets from 2004-2006.

[mipegg]

This assumes that the added mass is fat, that you haven't increased your upper-body pulling strength, and that you would have no control over the amount of weight you gain. In general, you're thinking like an endurance athlete: you think a bigger motor slows down the car.

Isnt adding unused muscle just as bad as fat? Triceps etc.

I am aware that I do need to add mass and extra muscle isnt anything to complain about. I am extremely interested in trying to improve my upper body strength but more over power, is there any way to increase training for these attributes whilst on starting strength or, would the volume just be too great?

[Christopher]

As someone who has climbed a couple days a week consistently while also lifting, I can identify with your weight gain issues. As I've put on weight climbing has gotten harder and harder despite the general strength gains being great, including pulling, since my grip has such a hard time keeping up. You'd think to up the grip training maybe, but I'm having a hard time not over training that as it is.

In the end I've just come to terms with the slipping performance in climbing since I'm looking to make lifting my main sport and that's that. Sure my new strength gets me through a few more big tough spots on the boulders, but I have more trouble on longer problems with smaller holds. I wish I had a better answer for you but I just wanted to chime in with my experience. ZenMonkey sounds like he's on the right track.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, I agree that yoga may be the most beneficial thing in the whole world. Look, you boneheads, no one is suggesting that a lean body mass gain of 40% wouldn't affect a sport like climbing. But this irrational fear of weight gain must be overcome, perhaps through more patient, diligent explanation. Can yoga help with that too?

[Ryan Wooley]

I am not competitive by any means, but I do climb a lot, work at a climbing gym, and lift as well. I have bouldered up to V7 and I have done the Novice progression + GOMAD a couple times and seen some nice gains. However, my climbing definitly got worse as I gained weight. Climbing is a strange sport. Having big strong legs can actually hold you back as a climber. I have actually seen a few people at my gym lose weight to the point of bein anorexic and weak overall, yet they become stronger climbers. I don't want to be weak, so I try to balance lifting with climbing. Depending on your goals, barbell lifts may not be of much value to your climbing. Deadlifts might be. Pressing provides a good balance to all the pulling you do. Look into some gymnastics training. That has helped me. Most important way to train is to just climb hard and don't get injured. Works for Chris Sharma. Good luck.

[mipegg]

Well, a bout of bouldering in the climbing gym lasts ~2-3 hours. Though only 1-2 of actual on the wall. Routes are anywhere from 10 seconds to 2 minuets. Competitions are often 5-7 routes with you getting 3 consecutive attempts at it, then a huge break until the next problem. As for climbers, most of them tend to be super afraid of the gym and go with the myth of 'climbing is the only training you need for climbing' which is why the injury rate is so high. Specific muscles get used whilst others are entirely neglected

So, if we take the weight factor out of this and pretend it isnt a problem (I cant imagine for 5-10 kg it will hinder that much) what form of training would you recommend? I seem to have the strength to hold myself but not the power to pull through to the next holds. My grip strength is rarely a problem. I have had the idea of oly lifts mentioned, would this be a good thing to do?

[AidenBloodaxe]

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/relativestrengthmyth.html

[Benny1981]

I hear this bad logic all the time in boxing. It's the man's version of the girls who think they'll get bulky if they touch a weight.

It's true that at some point lean muscle gain will tax an endurance athlete. You will not "accidentally" develop this kind of muscle. That level of muscle is the result of 5+ years of advanced weight training.

The light heavies and cruiserweights who have gradually added lean mass with full-body coordinated strength training have successfully made the jump up in weight to better performance. Look at Holyfield when he trained with Hatfield.

This is also only a problem if you're at a competitive bodyweight where you can't improve your body composition without adding pounds.

Then I might also add if one has the body type that easily packs on huge quantities of muscle, one probably does not have the body type well suited for bouldering...or being a horse jockey.

It's also unlikely to get significant "spot" muscle/strength increases. One will find they plateau rapidly if they are not doing the full body lifts which produce hormonal responses.

[ZenMonkey]

Yes, I agree that yoga may be the most beneficial thing in the whole world. Look, you boneheads, no one is suggesting that a lean body mass gain of 40% wouldn't affect a sport like climbing. But this irrational fear of weight gain must be overcome, perhaps through more patient, diligent explanation. Can yoga help with that too?

The body weight is something interesting. The climbing world in general is underweight. I know when I was climbing (5' 10'' 145lbs @ 8% bf) I could climb much more efficiently than after putting on an additional 40lbs of LBM. After the weight gain my squat was at 315x5 and clean at 225x2. But, for the life of me, I could not climb like I used to. I couldnt hold myself up on boulder problems for very long at all whereas in the past I could. I was still practicing climbing but not yoga as well. So, Im only basing my justification off of personal evidence and the general consensus in the climbing community. I realize I cant derive an ought from an is, but I am sure convinced it was a benefit to practice yoga and be somewhat underweight.

I did, however, see a dramatic increase in my mountaineering ability once I was on SS for a while. I had done about 6 months of SS, plateaued, did 6 weeks of 20rep program, then back to SS for another 3 months and then took a trip to Mt. Rainier then Shasta then Whitney all in one trip. The difference in mountaineering at 145 vs about 185 was incredible, but my climbing ability went way down.

Im sure its possible to develop a heavier climber but I simply found my strength/weight ratio just did not cut it as I got heavier even though there was a dramatic increase in my squat and clean #s.

[JustExactlyRight]

At a certain point the added benefit of core and leg strength will be negated by the weight of your thighs. When I was bouldering and doing SS I had huge weight and strength gains, kept my core strength up (could still do front levers etc), could dyno farther easier and my overall grip strength went way up (could close tougher grippers, pinch more weight, etc).

But after awhile my climbing stagnated since now I weighed 40 pounds more and I hadn't spent the time developing bouldering specific hand strength. I focused on bouldering, pullups from my hangboard, and intense grip training and the problems started going down again. I also switched to doing more O lifts and CF metcon type workouts. Crushed the rocks.

Of course my harness doesn't fit anymore, I can just barely get it past my knees, haha.

[tikuane]

How much muscle in lbs did you gain Christopher? Did your body fat change?

[JLascek]

Yoga is highly beneficial. You need to be able to have serious body control and be able to hold positions for an extended period of time. What do I know though, I only got paid to do it and won most of the SE speed climbing meets from 2004-2006.

I guess increased body and trunk strength along with enhanced neuromuscular efficiency has nothing to do with "holding positions for a long time".

But I agree, do the yoga. After all, it's what has always been done.

[David_S]

Yoga is highly beneficial. You need to be able to have serious body control and be able to hold positions for an extended period of time. What do I know though, I only got paid to do it and won most of the SE speed climbing meets from 2004-2006.

Bruce Lee kicked some serious ass, too, but 1000 sit ups a day and dumbbell punches aren't the best way to develop strength and conditioning for a fight, either.

Similarly, I'm sure that the best way to train for climbing can't possibly be to devote equal time to something that is mostly stretching as you do to the actual climbing. I understand yoga requires balance, but you know what's going to be better for developing climbing-specific balance? CLIMBING.

[Antigen]

If you strength train for strength and size with 5's or 8's and eat a surplus to grow, initially both relative strength and absolute strength improve for undermuscled individuals. But it's only a few months before relative strength slows (and eventually stops) even though absolute strength and bodyweight keep improving.

My example is my weighted chinups improved over 20lbs, while my bench:weight and press:weight ratios improved as I gained weight on SS but my progress on bodyweight tricks like Front Levers or Planches stagnated or decreased even though I still worked on them once a week. For such things, thick legs are dead weight with the worst possible leverage.

The bottom line is hypertrophy must be specific to the sport. And for bodyweight focused activities excessive hypertrophy of the non-essential muscles is as bad as bodyfat gain. And even more hypertrophy of muscles that need it is a diminishing returns game after some point.

[Christopher]

How much muscle in lbs did you gain Christopher? Did your body fat change?

When I started climbing I was probably around 185lbs with barely single-digit bodyfat(I'm 6'3"), my performance in climbing was at its best when I was around 200lbs, but now I'm pushing 215 and it's getting harder. Like I said though, I knew what I was getting into when I started SS, I made a choice and it was bound to happen. Plus I was never really a great climber anyway. :)

[ZenMonkey]

I guess increased body and trunk strength along with enhanced neuromuscular efficiency has nothing to do with "holding positions for a long time".

But I agree, do the yoga. After all, it's what has always been done.

Yep, you pretty much nailed it.