Soybean pervasiveness

[coreJack]

This article (http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/708661--where-they-grow-our-junk-food), which discusses, among other things, how deeply entrenched soybeans are in food production, got me wondering about the downstream effects on men. For the fathers on this board, this is likely a bigger issue for your sons than adult males.

Question to the coach and all forum members - how far do you go to avoid consuming soy products?

Obviously no one here is eating soy burgers. But do you skip the edamame at Japanese restaurants (tastes so damn good!)? Does anyone know if the soy being fed to cattle, and presumably chickens, leads to higher estrogen levels in the beef and eggs we eat?

[Mark Rippetoe]

You like edamame? I have no trouble staying away from the shit. In fact, I'd have trouble finding it here. But really, I have no idea how far down the food chain these soy components persist. We'll axe the board for input.

[matclone]

What does soy have to with someone's manhood, and how is your question related to the article which doesn't make any claim along that line (that I noticed anyway)? What is Edamame? If it's a Japanese food, it's probably not anything like the junk food decried in the article.

[stronger]

Obviously no one here is eating soy burgers. But do you skip the edamame at Japanese restaurants (tastes so damn good!)?

I mean how often is someone going to be going to a Japanese restaurant anyway? A few beans here or there are probably not much to be concerned over.

[fullpen]

You like edamame? I have no trouble staying away from the shit. In fact, I'd have trouble finding it here. But really, I have no idea how far down the food chain these soy components persist. We'll axe the board for input.

fershizzle.

just read the labels on everything you buy. i, for one, haven't encountered any soy in milk, peanut butter, eggs, beef, green veggies, etc...

[dawson]

Why edamame when Nippon restos make other great and much more edible stuff?

Soy and soy by products are in literally everything we eat. You can't know for sure it isn't there unless you grow your own crops and raise your own livestock. I guess you can buy grass fed beef and such to get away from it in your protein supply. But, anything you buy in a package is suspect right out of the gate. About all you can do, if you shop at the usual grocery stores, is stay on the outside aisles of the store to buy your grub. Very hard to do though, those damn snacks and other goodies are hard to resist! Where did I put that bag of Oreos now?:D

[coreJack]

What does soy have to with someone's manhood, and how is your question related to the article which doesn't make any claim along that line (that I noticed anyway)? What is Edamame? If it's a Japanese food, it's probably not anything like the junk food decried in the article.
Re-read my post. Nevermind, I'll break it down for you.
1. Soybeans contain a chemical that has an estrogen-like effect in humans.
2. I never said the article made any claims about soy products and the impact on men. In fact, I describe what the article discusses, which is what got me thinking if we are all being exposed to estrogen via our diets.
3. Edamame is soybeans boiled in their pods and served salted. Delicious, even if Rip doesn't think so.

I mean how often is someone going to be going to a Japanese restaurant anyway? A few beans here or there are probably not much to be concerned over.
Edamame is just one example. Tofu would be another, though I doubt anyone here eats that crap. The bigger concern I have is whether that estrogen-like compound makes its way into beef, poultry, milk, and eggs - which I presume most of us here consume is copious quantities.

[TPrewittMD]

What does soy have to with someone's manhood, and how is your question related to the article which doesn't make any claim along that line (that I noticed anyway)? What is Edamame? If it's a Japanese food, it's probably not anything like the junk food decried in the article.

Soy is thought to be a phytoestrogen, which is a plant-based compound that has properties similar to estrogen. Estrogen is a steroid hormone and therefore can only be produced by mammals.

Women will try phytoestrogens (e.g. soy, black cohosh) for menopausal symptoms when they don't want to take estrogen due to fear of breast cancer (a much exaggerated phenomenon) or because they have a proclivity towards "natural" stuff.

The issue here has to do with the possibility that eating soy will be like taking estrogen, thereby causing feminizing effects in males, an effect generally not desired amongst those who train with weights.

Soy has generally been a bust when used for medical purposes despite a ton of hype. Probably not a bad source of protein, but I would prefer whey (milk protein) if I was going to supplement.

As an aside, I love raw fish but really don't like edamame at all.

TP

[quadancer]

There are some guys who lift on soy and haven't gotten mastitis yet. The veggieheads HAVE to use soy, or lack proteins. But as far as their subscriptions to Ladies Home Journal, I can't say.
I thought the debate over estrogen was still raging. Has anyone seen it to it's conclusion?

[JesseJJ]

Everything in moderation, spake some Greek guy or Thoreau or somebody.

1.3 gazillion Chinese men have eaten soy for 5 bazillion years and don't appear to have developed manboobs or have any issues with function of their procreative systems. I'll worry about other things, like my kid getting her driver's license.

[TChase76]

Here's a funny article about soy milk someone sent to me.

http://www.seattlepi.com/tvguide/411850_tvgif4.html

[Mark Rippetoe]

This is a pretty funny thread. Pointless, but amusing.

[coreJack]

Women will try phytoestrogens (e.g. soy, black cohosh) for menopausal symptoms when they don't want to take estrogen due to fear of breast cancer (a much exaggerated phenomenon) or because they have a proclivity towards "natural" stuff.
Another example is monks consuming soy foods to keep their libidos in check.

http://environmentalcommons.org/cetos/articles/soystory.html

While the Food and Drug Administration's policy arm concerning food, the Center for Food Safety and Nutrition, is not regulating soy's phytoestrogens and has not conducted any safety studies of ingestion of soy, there is at least one person in the FDA concerned about the aggressive marketing of soy and its concentrated isolates. Dr. Daniel Sheehan of FDA's National Center for Toxicological Research says "there is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolite of daidzein, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid." He goes onto to say, "genistein is clearly estrogenic, and it induces estrogenic responses in developing and adult animals and in adult humans."
. . .
Soy is permeating our food chain. Soybean oil constitutes 80% of the vegetable oil consumed in the United States. Soy lecithin permeates candies, cookies, and chocolates as an emulsifier. Soy protein isolates are used in infant formulas and sport protein drinks and bars.

[Blairbob]

If I see soy on the label, I don't eat it. No soy flour or TVG. This really sucks because all the bread crumbs at the store use soy flour, so I have to buy Panko as I don't have a food processor to just make bread crumbs. Buying the panko makes the cost of making meatballs go up as most frozen meatballs have some sort of soy/TVG.

Making 5-10 pounds of meatballs at a time means I go through quite a bit of Panko. What's worse is I can eat a frozen bag of meatballs for snacks in a week.

It also means I have to read a lot of the labels on anything in the frozen section. Yes, sometimes I'm still a lazy bastard and just want to throw something in the oven after a workout instead of some fastfood like tacos, cheeseburgers, burritos, etc (cha-ching).

However, I have heard the Japanese store in downtown sells Panko for a 1/3rd of what it costs as the store. Works good for chicken,steak, and pork fried chicken or chicken or pork katsu.

When it comes to frozen pizza, only the pepperoni only pizzas don't use TVG. Any with sausage or hamburger tend to use TVG. It's also in the cheapo burritos, though the bean and cheese don't use any. Those mini burritos are awesome for quick food.

Traditionally, the asian peoples ate a lot of fermented soy, not just simple soy foods. In fact, soy was often grown as a soil replenisher more than anything else. Then the buddhists came in and decided that eating animals was bad and voila, let's eat soy!

It also tastes disgusting. Some years back I tried soy protein and wasn't even aware of some of it's downfalls other than it was cheaper than whey or milk&egg. Seeing that it tasted disgusting stopped that quickly as it also did in many of the protein bars since it's very difficult to hide that shitty taste.

[matclone]

1. Soybeans contain a chemical that has an estrogen-like effect in humans.

Therein lies the rub. Your first post was premised on the idea that everyone knows this and accepts it as fact. I didn't, and don't, even with Dr. Prewitt's explanation.

Have you ever wondered how the Japanese, with their traditional soy-based diet continue to have children and send athletes to the Olympics?



Edamame is just one example. Tofu would be another, though I doubt anyone here eats that crap.

I just happened have some miso soup at lunch, which included floating pieces of tofu. Nonetheless, I will work out tonight.

[knkavo]

Don't forget the estrogen-in-plastics scare:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090326100714.htm

All those handy meals that we have been storing in tupperware have been making us into GIRLS!

Now I have a new excuse for my personal failures... I am a happy 21st Century boy.

[BIGGUY6FT6]

Wonder if the soy consumption has anything to do with the Chinese small stature?
When my son was born we found he had a milk allergy. He was 70% in birth wt and ht at birth. After breast feeding was done we went soy. He then went down in rates to 5% and stayed that way. After a year we tested his blood levels for milk allergies and they were gone put him on whole milke and he shot up the charts like crazy and is now in the 80% area after 2 years.

Coincidence? Maybe.

Now if he can grow out of egg allergy he will be good.

[coreJack]

Have you ever wondered how the Japanese, with their traditional soy-based diet continue to have children and send athletes to the Olympics?
Have you considered the correlation between the soy in a country's diet and penis size?

On a more serious note, perhaps there is something else in their diet (fish?) that counteracts the soy to some extent? Also, those traditional Eastern diets may contain less soy than the modern American diet. As dawson points out, soy and soy derivatives are widespread in processed foods (even in things like canned tuna). And traditional Eastern diets didn't include soy milk (a relatively modern invention), which has far more soy protein than traditional soy foods.

Look, no one knows for sure if soy's phytoestrogens have a material adverse impact on humans, and given the monied interests behind soy, it may be a long time before we see definitive research that soy is feminizing (if in fact that is the case). In lieu of definitive research one way or the other, the following have persuaded me to minimize my exposure to soy and soy derivatives:
1. the fact that soy consumption lengthens the human female menstrual cycle
2. that some menopausal women consume soy products instead of taking estrogen
3. that monks consume tofu to restrain their libido
4. that Japanese couples traditionally have the men consume more tofu when they want to decrease pregnancy risks

[Kate]

Question to the coach and all forum members - how far do you go to avoid consuming soy products?

I don't avoid them.


Obviously no one here is eating soy burgers. Uh, yeah, some of us are. Tofu and tempeh, too. I have both cow's milk and soy milk in my fridge.

The groupthink that sometimes sets in here gets a little tedious. Just because I picked up a barbell and SS:BBT doesn't mean that I've suddenly acquired a taste for beef.

~Kate

[TPrewittMD]

Therein lies the rub. Your first post was premised on the idea that everyone knows this and accepts it as fact. I didn't, and don't, even with Dr. Prewitt's explanation.


Yep, Mat, I agree.

The implied point of my post, however awkwardly expressed, was that whatever people say about soy and estrogen, the effect seems to be greatly exaggerated.

If soy was an effective alternative to estrogen, many, many women would be using it. And as you suggest, we should see overt feminization in men who consume high levels of soy.

Maybe these data exist, and I don't know it.

TP

[Blairbob]

A lot of soy eaten in asian cultures is fermented. Tofu is not typically though some of the phytoestrogen and trypsin inhibitors are decreased. As well, some tofu is fermented. Tofu is made from soy milk.

Matclone, miso is a fermented soy product. It has been reported that soy consumption in the Asian countries is nowhere near compared to how it has been adapted to in the US with soy protein and TVG.

Asian small stature probably has more to do with the rice consumption as rice includes phytates which negate absorption of key minerals. Soybeans also contain high amounts of phytates.

Soymilk also is relatively low in fat.

"Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk, high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets tend to be thin and scrawny."

from [URL="http://rheumatic.org/soy.htm"]http://rheumatic.org/soy.htm[/
URL]

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/06doses.htm

Also note the side effects in Testosterone besides how much estrogen can be absorbed. Do you want to be on the f'n pill?!

It seems the fat in whole milk is better suited for protein synthesis. This also may be possible because VitD absorption requires fat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?orig_db=PubMed&db=pubmed&cmd=Search&TransSchema=title&term=Milk%20Ingestion%20Stimulates%20Net%20Muscle% 20Protein%20Synthesis%20following%20Resistance%20E xercise

[gordonrumble]

From what I understand, while soy does have estrogen-like properties, the quantity that you would have to consume daily to see a noticeable effect is enormous. Entire cultures base much of their diet around soy products, and they aren't suffering for it.

That being said, I don't tend to choose soy products when I have the option, though I don't actively avoid them.

A little science:

Genistein and Daidzein are two notable estrogenic compounds in soy, which do bind to estrogen receptors. Genistein is specific does cause some transcription, so it works like estrogen in that way. This can cause a slight decrease in testosterone levels if consumed in quantity. It's not the ideal food to eat if you're looking to pack on some muscle and increase testosterone levels.

[coreJack]

Entire cultures base much of their diet around soy products, and they aren't suffering for it.
This is the standard response to concerns about soy consumption.

What a few of the responses here are suggesting is that the typical American who consumes soy (drinks soy milk, eats soy burgers, tofu, etc., not to mention the exposure to soy in just about every processed food, even those where you wouldn't expect it, like canned tuna) is consuming far more soy and phytoestrogens than the average person in Japan or China.

[Patrick L.]

I don't avoid them.

Uh, yeah, some of us are. Tofu and tempeh, too. I have both cow's milk and soy milk in my fridge.

The groupthink that sometimes sets in here gets a little tedious. Just because I picked up a barbell and SS:BBT doesn't mean that I've suddenly acquired a taste for beef.

~Kate

I have to agree with Kate here...Although I usually eat things that once had a face, on occasion I eat tofu or edamame. IMO it has anything to do with the ability, commitment or necessary toughness to gain strength through Rip's program.

[coreJack]

I don't avoid them.

Uh, yeah, some of us are. Tofu and tempeh, too. I have both cow's milk and soy milk in my fridge.

The groupthink that sometimes sets in here gets a little tedious. Just because I picked up a barbell and SS:BBT doesn't mean that I've suddenly acquired a taste for beef.

~Kate
My apologies. Sometimes I forget that this forum isn't comprised of just two groups:
1. guys striving to not be skinny; and
2. guys striving to be 70s Big

[matclone]

Look, no one knows for sure if soy's phytoestrogens have a material adverse impact on humans, and given the monied interests behind soy, it may be a long time before we see definitive research that soy is feminizing (if in fact that is the case). In lieu of definitive research one way or the other, the following have persuaded me to minimize my exposure to soy and soy derivatives:
1. the fact that soy consumption lengthens the human female menstrual cycle
2. that some menopausal women consume soy products instead of taking estrogen
3. that monks consume tofu to restrain their libido
4. that Japanese couples traditionally have the men consume more tofu when they want to decrease pregnancy risks

Fair enough. As you say, (although I'm going to re-phrase it), no adverse effect from soy has been identified with any certainty. This, as well as the general knowledge that soy has been eaten for a long time, suggests to me, and evidently to others, that there is nothing to be concerned about. In any case, it looks like you have a sample of answers to your original question.

[Blairbob]

Matclone, go read some of the data on soy based infant formula.

Babies are supposed to gain weight and soy doesn't help them do that. No adverse effect!


Disruption of the Menstrual Cycle ( a harbinger of potential fertility problems) was caused by 45 mg/day for only 30 days. That is less than the quantity of isoflavones in two glasses of soy milk.

2 glasses of soy milk. Now, I've never drank 2 glasses, much less 1 glass of soy milk but that is alarming news. However, men who drink Soy milk probably deserve the estrogen and I'm pretty sure I don't want them breeding. The women who are attracted to them are not the ones I want to breed with anyways. It may be humorous to see what those women would think of them after getting off the pill. Look into the difference of mate selection on and off the pill of females.

The whole point is the soy that is consumed in the East is of a far different nature because a lot of it is fermented versus the soy in the West is not fermented at all besides highly processed with chemicals.


soy was an effective alternative to estrogen, many, many women would be using it.

Haven't you heard that soy is often used for post menopausal women?

[RandallH1989]

I don't understand how this thread got on the Starting Strength forum. Eating more soy means eating less meat. And if you would rather have a burger made from a plant than from a cow, I don't know what the hell you are doing with your life.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Oh, I keep approving the posts just to see what Matclone is going to say.

[coreJack]

The whole point is the soy that is consumed in the East is of a far different nature because a lot of it is fermented versus the soy in the West is not fermented at all besides highly processed with chemicals.
I was focusing on the volume of soy products in the modern western diet of your typical American tofu eater vs. the traditional Eastern diet (which involves LESS soy proteins). But you make a good point - it's not even the same shit, and we're getting more of it than ancient Chinese or Japanese ever ate. But yeah, soy has been in Eastern diets for a long time, so it's definitely safe. :rolleyes:

Haven't you heard that soy is often used for post menopausal women?
He did, if he read my earlier post in this thread, but maybe he chose to ignore it. And I agree with you, if that shit is strong enough that post menopausal women can substitute it for estrogen, I don't want to be consuming it.

No doubt, dosage matters, but can anyone who's eating this stuff whether they know it or not, figure out their dosage? Can Kate tell us how many mg of phytoestrogens she's consuming between the obvious soy products and the hidden soy products (sports bars, canned tuna, and all sorts of other processed foods)? No, she cannot. And does she know that she's not consuming 10x as many mg of phytoestrogens as the average Eastern woman? No, she does not. [Kate, not picking on you, just using your diet as an example.]

I don't understand how this thread got on the Starting Strength forum. Eating more soy means eating less meat. And if you would rather have a burger made from a plant than from a cow, I don't know what the hell you are doing with your life.
Haha, well I started this thread, and between the posts here, and the research they have prompted me to do, I've learned a lot more about soy. None of it particularly favorable. But, by far, the most interesting thing I learned has implications far beyond whether a woman I'm dating is consuming lots of soy:

It may be humorous to see what those women would think of them after getting off the pill. Look into the difference of mate selection on and off the pill of females.
I looked it up. Holy shit.

[Kate]

...if that shit is strong enough that post menopausal women can substitute it for estrogen, I don't want to be consuming it.

I think you missed something that TPrewittMD said (and I hope I understood his point correctly): "If soy were an effective alternative to estrogen, many, many women would be using it." But it isn't, and they're not.

In other words: Some women try eating soy to relieve menopause symptoms, but if that approach were really successful, there would not have been such a huge market for HRT (hormone replacement therapy). So, my guess is that soy doesn't actually work very well in that area. But I don't know -- haven't seen data, and haven't hit menopause yet.



No doubt, dosage matters, but can anyone who's eating this stuff whether they know it or not, figure out their dosage? Can Kate tell us how many mg of phytoestrogens she's consuming between the obvious soy products and the hidden soy products (sports bars, canned tuna, and all sorts of other processed foods)? No, she cannot. And does she know that she's not consuming 10x as many mg of phytoestrogens as the average Eastern woman? No, she does not. [Kate, not picking on you, just using your diet as an example.] That's fine, but I'm actually a poor example, for various reasons.

(a) I'm not a complete vegetarian* and don't consume all that much soy, processed or otherwise. It's part of my diet, and I'm not terrified of it the way some of you guys seem to be, but it's just Not A Big Deal, one way or the other.

*Haven't had dead cow or pig for 30 years and don't miss it, but I do eat fish, and as of a few years ago, chicken & turkey. (I did miss the birdies, I'm afraid, and frankly, I am just too lazy to be a good vegetarian. And I like ice cream far too much to be a vegan.)

(b) I read food labels and pay attention to what's in my food. So I know, for instance, that my canned tuna (Wegman's brand) is just tuna & water, and nuthin' else.

To get back to what I think your point was there: If someone were really motivated, and read labels obsessively, and measured all her food, she probably could figure out many mg of phytoestrogens she was consuming. (Me, I'd rather channel my OCD-ish-ness in other directions.)

Someone else here said it earlier: Everything in moderation. (Or, as my 8th grade science teacher used to say: "Everything in moderation... including moderation." Heh.)


Randall said:

And if you would rather have a burger made from a plant than from a cow, I don't know what the hell you are doing with your life. That's quite all right -- don't worry your pretty little head about it. Save your strength for lifting. :D :D :D

(Sorry; that comment was just so inane, I couldn't resist.)

~Kate

[RandallH1989]

You really think my head is pretty? Sweet.

I just can't fathom why anybody would be against eating meat, or even restrict intake of it. There is just far too much to suggest that it's more natural and healthy.

Growing up as a kid, I was never big on sweets, unlike my sister. I was happier than a pig in sh*t when we would have steak for dinner. I'd always ask mom to leave me some raw meat to eat, because the fresh, raw flesh of our friends the animals, particularly cows, was so appealing to me. It did and still feels very natural to me. It wasn't something that I saw anybody else in my family do, and even before the first time I tried raw meat I felt myself craving it. Every steak I order at a restaurant I get rare. As rare as possible. There was a point for a few years where I consumed no vegetables, no multivitamin.. And I am very healthy. However, i'm only 20 years of age so maybe i'll have a heart attack next year.

To each their own.

[coreJack]

I think you missed something that TPrewittMD said (and I hope I understood his point correctly): "If soy were an effective alternative to estrogen, many, many women would be using it." But it isn't, and they're not.

In other words: Some women try eating soy to relieve menopause symptoms, but if that approach were really successful, there would not have been such a huge market for HRT (hormone replacement therapy). So, my guess is that soy doesn't actually work very well in that area. But I don't know -- haven't seen data, and haven't hit menopause yet.
Do a search - some women are using soy as an estrogen substitute. The phytoestrogens in soy definitely aren't as potent as the real deal, so maybe only some women are interested in consuming enough soy product to get the desired effect? Or maybe consumption of a lot of soy has other effects, besides the estrogenic effects, and that's what makes menopausal women prefer actual estrogen? As someone pointed out earlier, the soy we get is highly processed (read: lots of chemicals), so it's quite possible that there would be other, undesirable effects from consumption at a level that makes soy an alternative to HRT.

And the soybean industry probably does not want to promote the use of soy for HRT purposes, which may be partly why it isn't more popular. If they did, they would risk turning everyone else away from soy.

[TPrewittMD]

Do a search - some women are using soy as an estrogen substitute.

Certainly true that women are using it, or they are at least trying it.
Fact is, there are data that show most phytoestrogens to be clinically insignificant. And I cannot remember the last time I saw a patient who was using soy as an estrogen replacement. Maybe 10 years ago.

And Kate, you did get the point. Thanks. And imagine the commercials on TV from the soy industry if soy was an effective hormonal therapy?

But I am reticent about commenting 'cause I am not sure I want to add to the life of this thread...............

heh

Tommy Prewitt

[ericofsac]

I just can't fathom why anybody would be against eating meat, or even restrict intake of it. There is just far too much to suggest that it's more natural and healthy.

I don't think there's that much to get, really. For myself, I consider eating animals (or more precisely, killing them) to be morally wrong. So I don't. Your morals are probably different.

As for soy, I'm sure I'm consuming at least 10x the daily intake of the average Eastern woman. So far I'm ok. I don't think I'm "70's Big" yet, but I'm a whole 100lbs bigger than I was before discovering the magic of squats and (in my case, vegan) food.

So, Coach Rippetoe, while I won't blaspheme and suggest changing the acronym to GOSMAD (gallon-of-soymilk-a-day), I do want to say thank you for your books, and this forum. Even though I've ignored your guidance on specific foods, I've benefited greatly from the overall message of eating lots and squatting heavy.

[Kate]

I just can't fathom why anybody would be against eating meat, or even restrict intake of it. There is just far too much to suggest that it's more natural and healthy....

Didn't realize you were serious before; sorry for teasing you.
I won't go into details, but there are several factors in my aversion to some kinds of meat. I think that what started me down the path to (partial) vegetarianism was the book "Diet for a Small Planet," by Frances Moore Lappé. I believe it was a big influence among vegetarians of my generation, back in the mid to late '70s.

~Kate

[Gwynn]

I've been vegan and vegetarian at different (not during lifting) times in my life. Not for ethical reasons; meat just used disagree with me. However, I do believe that if you are a meat eater you need to be willing to kill it, skin it and butcher it yourself. Now I know that is difficult in this day and age to actually put into practice and I certainly haven't. I'd like to have those skills.

There's a funny story amongst my friends about a friend of a friend who was living with vegans and they dissed her for eating meat, saying basically the above (you need to be wiling to kill it to eat it). So she brought home a live chicken and slaughtered it in the front yard. Hehe.

[Blairbob]

I just can't fathom why anybody would be against eating meat, or even restrict intake of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_vegetarianism

In either case, I consider humans just a rational form of animal though we are mammals. Our closest relatives, the great apes, are carnivorous though we typically eat probably twice as much as meat as they. Perhaps, by eating meat and flesh we identify with other great predators so it's a form of sympathetic magic or some psychology.

Then again, maybe I'm only as civilized as a Bronze Age Man. I'm ok with that. I don't correspond to any of those religions and I'm pretty sure my racial heritage in ages past would laugh at the idea. Whoever heard of a vegetarian Viking, Inca, Celt, Sioux, or Teuton? Maybe there were Shamans and Druids, but such types are otherworldly men not normal anyways.