Max monthly LBM gain?

[LCN]

I'm not trying to stir up shit, honest, but I noticed that Lyle McDonald argues that 2 pounds a month LBM gain is pretty much the maximum possible. (With rare exceptions like someone seriously underweight.) This is without drugs.

Do you agree with that? My impression from doing SS myself and from various other people I know who have done it is that one can do a lot better than this (of course the more untrained you are the easier it is).

I would of thought a truly untrained young male would have no problem putting on say 10 pounds in the first month, about 50/50 between fat and LBM.

Am I just wrong?

[Mark Rippetoe]

We have a kid that has recently gained 48 pounds in 10 weeks. Squat has gone from 145 x 5 to 310 x 5 x 3. If Lyle said this, and if you're not taking it out of context, then Lyle is wrong. Certainly if he's talking about novice lifters. Sorry.

[nisora33]

He's taken it out of context.

Lyle said there are exceptions to the 2-lb. limit: adolescents, whose hormonal milieu is such that training them is like training someone on steroids, and underweight novices. And he says the gains, of course, taper eventually even for these two categories of trainee. So I don't see any contradictions between what either Rip or Lyle has said.

Stacey

[Corey]

Mark,

Is the student you are referring to Zach? The young guy you were talking about during the ironradio interview?

I'd be interested to see before and after photos...that is tremendous gains!

[matclone]

I assume LBM = lean body mass, as I've seen several discussions on the Strength Mill forums, and here, using this same acronym. Whenever I see LBM, I wonder if I've accidentally stumbled upon a bodybuilding forum, because it seems to be this is bodybuilding talk, and a bodybuilding concept (similar to training "body parts").

Unless I’ve missed something (a possibility), the idea behind Starting Strength is to get stronger. Increasing lean body weight is not part of the concept or the formula. Besides, practically speaking, from what I know, it’s not easy or inexpensive to get an accurate measurement of one’s lean body weight, and doing this on a monthly basis (as the product purveyors would lead you to believe they’re doing) seems silly. Why? So you can tell your buddies you gained 1.78 pounds of “lean body mass” last month, or 10.68 pounds in the last six months? Should we be impressed?

[Alyion]

I've never understood this. Your telling me a 5 foot novice and 6 feet novice can only build .5lbs of muscle a week when working every major muscle in their body 3x a week?

Its only the skinny weak guys who spout this like this all the time, terrified of losing their abs yet wanting to get strong and they always end up staying in some yo-yo limbo

[metermanja]

Dear Mr Rippetoe,

Firstly thanks for your wonderful book and illustrative DVD, both of which have rewritten my workout. I hope to attend your coaches training seminar too and take the learning to where i am from. (where the government takes our beer away and stops us from owning firearms, sadly)
Now, i have followed this forum for a few days now and seems like even the skiniest of kids have a "pre-training" squat of close to 150lb. I am embarrased to say that my squat started off at 95 lb.Now after a few weeks, i have worked my way upto 175 lb x 3 reps x 5 sets. I eat a lot of fruit and veggies and a half gallon of milk a day. I have put on around 6 lb in the last few weeks and now stand at 184 lb. I am 5'9" .

Question 1 - Are these rather poor squat statistics normal or am i doing something wrong.

Question 2 - My knee used to click and pop often, but strangely feels allright when i am under the bar and feels better after i have done my sets. Is this some kind of treatment that i unknowingly ran into?

Thanks for the time you take to answer questions on ths forum.

[JLascek]

For anyone interested, I am going to start asking for your PR's in bodyweight and strength gains on 70sbig.com.

If we compile enough of of this data, then people will have plenty of examples of what you can accomplish with the linear progression and food.

[Mark Rippetoe]

... have followed this forum for a few days now and seems like even the skinniest of kids have a "pre-training" squat of close to 150lb. I am embarrassed to say that my squat started off at 95 lb.Now after a few weeks, i have worked my way up to 175 lb x 3 reps x 5 sets. I eat a lot of fruit and veggies and a half gallon of milk a day. I have put on around 6 lb in the last few weeks and now stand at 184 lb. I am 5'9" .

Question 1 - Are these rather poor squat statistics normal or am i doing something wrong.

Question 2 - My knee used to click and pop often, but strangely feels alright when i am under the bar and feels better after i have done my sets. Is this some kind of treatment that i unknowingly ran into?


1. Yes, these are below-average numbers, but you seem to be improving. Eat more protein.

2. You have discovered the truth about squats.

[LarsM]

Unless I’ve missed something (a possibility), the idea behind Starting Strength is to get stronger. Increasing lean body weight is not part of the concept or the formula. Besides, practically speaking, from what I know, it’s not easy or inexpensive to get an accurate measurement of one’s lean body weight, and doing this on a monthly basis (as the product purveyors would lead you to believe they’re doing) seems silly. Why? So you can tell your buddies you gained 1.78 pounds of “lean body mass” last month, or 10.68 pounds in the last six months? Should we be impressed?

I'd like to see your theory on how strength is increased without an increase in LBM accompanying it. You're also quite delusional if you think this is 100% irrelevant for a large portion of the target audience of SS.

[Marcellius27]

We have a kid that has recently gained 48 pounds in 10 weeks. Squat has gone from 145 x 5 to 310 x 5 x 3. If Lyle said this, and if you're not taking it out of context, then Lyle is wrong. Certainly if he's talking about novice lifters. Sorry.

O_O 48 lbs in 10 weeks. Wow! Hand out the before and after pics. That's some crazy weight gain. Good job to that kid. With a new mind set. I hope to get near that.

[Mark Rippetoe]

We'll have the pics tomorrow.

[LCN]

He's taken it out of context.

Lyle said there are exceptions to the 2-lb. limit: adolescents, whose hormonal milieu is such that training them is like training someone on steroids, and underweight novices. And he says the gains, of course, taper eventually even for these two categories of trainee. So I don't see any contradictions between what either Rip or Lyle has said.

Stacey



For the record I did not take it out of context, because it came from a different context than whatever you are referring to.

Here was the thread I read the claim in (started by me): http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=5227

Lyle says "The exceptions, always used as singular examples are severely underweight high school kids. 2 lbs LBM is near the top end of what you can expect."


You can split hairs but I think that's a much more limited case than what you describe.

Either way I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument, I was genuinely interested in whether the 2 pounds LBM a month figure was right.

If Lyle's actual position is the same as Rip's (even though it doesn't look like it in that thread), fine.

[Anthony D]

Lyle also posted this in one of his articles,

"Please note that these are averages and make a few assumptions about proper training and nutrition and such. As well, age will interact with this; older individuals won’t gain as quickly and younger individuals may gain more quickly. For example, it’s not unheard of for underweight high school kids to gain muscle very rapidly. But they are usually starting out very underweight and have the natural anabolic steroid cycle called puberty working for them."

Don't post things unless you do all of your research.

[JLascek]

Meet Zach.



A gallon of milk a day + linear progression = literally better than steroids


http://70sbig.com/content/zach.jpg

[brobinson]

Not much difference between one and two, but the addition of the fifty pounds in number three is quite impressive for such a short time span.

[JLascek]

Just to clarify, Zach has done everything we asked him to do. He hasn't fucked around, he drinks his milk, he eats his food, and he comes in and trains hard. He's turned into an adult human being, and a good friend.

There will be a more extensive profile about Zach and some of our other lifters soon.

[Marcellius27]

Damn!!!! Zach. Kudos to him. Looks big. I'll eat.

[JLascek]

Zach is lifting in the gym right now. He weighs 215.

[butkus]

You know, if people were able to put together more testimonials like this that show how much muscle a novice can gain in a few months it can really change the seemingly prevailing idea that only 15-20 lbs of muscle can be gained in a year.

Pictures, lifting stats, bodyweight, and bodyfat measurements would probably provide enough empirical evidence for a typical layman to drop his P90x and pick up a barbell.

Once you get a group of guys like Johnny Pain, Fluxboy, and Zach reiterating the absolute effectiveness of Rip's training principles it's really undeniable.

Just a suggestion though, and my own curiosity to see how quickly people can gain muscular bodyweight.

[Marcellius27]

Yeah now that I can see an actual Rippetoe testimony. It's easier for me.

[JLascek]

You know, if people were able to put together more testimonials like this that show how much muscle a novice can gain in a few months it can really change the seemingly prevailing idea that only 15-20 lbs of muscle can be gained in a year.

Pictures, lifting stats, bodyweight, and bodyfat measurements would probably provide enough empirical evidence for a typical layman to drop his P90x and pick up a barbell.

Once you get a group of guys like Johnny Pain, Fluxboy, and Zach reiterating the absolute effectiveness of Rip's training principles it's really undeniable.

Just a suggestion though, and my own curiosity to see how quickly people can gain muscular bodyweight.

For the record, this is something I'm working on right now.

[Andre]

At 36 years old, after 4 weeks and two sessions, I've added 13lbs.
1,6 Inches on upper arms and 2,5 on each thigh.
Decrease on beer belly by 2 inches, but that's not the goal.
Don't care about being fat as long as I'm fat and strong.

[Marcellius27]

How many calories is Zach eating right now?

[Kyle Aaron]

It always helps to look at someone's words in context, avoids the Chinese whispers effect that... well, can make anyone look stupid.

Lyle McDonald's article is What's my genetic muscular potential? (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html)

He throws out the figure of 20-25lbs in the first year, 10-12lbs in the second, 5-6lbs in the third, and 2-3lbs thereafter. That's 40-50lbs in 5 or so years. The figures - he guesses, because there's not much data - are halved for women. That's for gain in lean body mass, ie muscle and bone - not fat.

"Please note that these are averages and make a few assumptions about proper training and nutrition and such. As well, age will interact with this; older individuals won’t gain as quickly and younger individuals may gain more quickly. For example, it’s not unheard of for underweight high school kids to gain muscle very rapidly. But they are usually starting out very underweight and have the natural anabolic steroid cycle called puberty working for them. [...]

"Now, if you total up those values, you get a gain of roughly 40-50 pounds of total muscle mass over a lifting career although it might take a solid 4+ years of proper training to achieve that. So if you started with 130 pound of lean body mass (say in high school you were 150 pounds with 12% body fat), you might have the potential to reach a level of 170-180 pounds of lean body mass after 4-5 years of proper training. At 12% body fat, that would put you at a weight of 190-200 pounds."
Now, do the great results of Zach torpedo all this below the water? I can't say. We'd have to know his before and after bodyfat, for one thing, and probably his height, for another, to see if he was that "underweight teenager" (a 165lb 6'4" guy is obviously very underweight, a 165lb 5'4" guy not so much).

I think it's fair to say, agree with McDonald or not, his words taken in context are at least not completely insane.

[matclone]

Lyle McDonald's article is What's my genetic muscular potential? (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html)

He throws out the figure of 20-25lbs in the first year, 10-12lbs in the second, 5-6lbs in the third, and 2-3lbs thereafter. That's 40-50lbs in 5 or so years. The figures - he guesses, because there's not much data - are halved for women...

You hit the nail on the head. These are guesses. They might be reasonable, but, nonetheless, they are speculative and not based on any scientific inquiry (at least none is offered).



Now, do the great results of Zach torpedo all this below the water? I can't say. We'd have to know his before and after bodyfat, for one thing, and probably his height, for another, to see if he was that "underweight teenager" (a 165lb 6'4" guy is obviously very underweight, a 165lb 5'4" guy not so much).

Why ask for before and after bodyfat if you no similar evidence to compare it to? Zach's appearance speaks for itself. Eat, train, and you can get bigger and stronger.

[msingh]

Zach gained 40lb of weight. How much of that is muscle? Who knows. We can safely say half is fat, half is muscle, and even then amounts to 2 lb of muscle per week. That sounds crazy.

Now rip argues that he's doubled his squat so that proves he must have gained a majority of muscle. But is that a reasonable argument? I dont follow the logic. He might have got strong simply because he is a novice and his body adapts to the stress very quickly -- but this could happen without him gaining 20lb of muscle too. Surely.

If people are going to make wild claims about gaining so much muscle in such short time they should be able to prove it by giving definite bodyfat measurements before and after. And this doesnt mean measure bf every week, but at least twice, once when the novice begins the program, and then 2-3 months later.

Until then the simplest explanation is that zach gained some 3-5 kg of muscle, a lot of fat, and water weight. Because he is 6ft the fat is distributed evenly on his frame so he does not look 'fat'.

I have no doubt whatsoever that SS and GOMAD can take a skinny kid and tunr him into a stronger bigger one. I just dont see the point in claiming crazy numbers like 10kg of muscle in 10 weeks without proof. It just makes everyone look silly.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Does it indeed? I'll have the numbers for you tonight.

[RandallH1989]

Sh*t just got real.

[dawson]

I just dont see the point in claiming crazy numbers like 10kg of muscle in 10 weeks without proof. It just makes everyone look silly.

Assuming you are not a troll, I'm gonna politely suggest that you should do a bit of research. Just try and google "squats and milk weight gain" to see what you come up with. Not everyone will be looking silly but perhaps one person will look so.

[knox]

I just dont see the point in claiming crazy numbers like 10kg of muscle in 10 weeks without proof. It just makes everyone look silly.

What seems silly to me is your mindset that it's parsimonious to believe that, in the absence of quantitative evidence, if someone gains 48lbs, half is fat and half is muscle. Also, saying that 20lbs of fat would distribute evenly over his body simply because he is 6ft tall is ludicrous.

[Nauticus]

I thought I'd bring up this article because it claims a limit of maximum amount of lean muscle mass gain per month much smaller than Rip asserts for those GOMADers:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_truth_about_bulking

"Gaining 1.5 to 2 pounds of muscle per month is the most you can expect."

I'm skeptical of this article, but interested in some thoughtful debate about it nonetheless.

[msingh]

Assuming you are not a troll, I'm gonna politely suggest that you should do a bit of research. Just try and google "squats and milk weight gain" to see what you come up with. Not everyone will be looking silly but perhaps one person will look so.

Relax, i'm on your side. It's just extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Its good practice to ask for data when someone makes a claim of gaining 10kg of muscle in 10 weeks. You would demand the same if a supplement company were making such claims. Googling squats and milk will get you plenty of writeups on how to put on weight. We are trying to determine the amount of maximum muscle gained by a novice, not weight.

Most of us who visit this forum agree that the best way to put on muscle and strength is to lift heavy and eat big. The contention is in the details -- is there a ceiling on the amount of muscle that can be gained in a month? Numbers are needed to settle the question one way or another. There is nothing to be gained by dogmatically claiming "no, just squat and drink milk."

It is in everyone's interest to have solid data on a novice's progress on starting strength + GOMAD, just so we are aware of what is achievable with good consistence training and discipline.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Okay, you assmunches. Here are two cases:

Zach Evetts
Age: 20
Bodyweight on 8/27/09: 162
Bodyweight on 11/16/09: 217
Bodyweight gain: 55 lbs.
Seven site skinfold sum: 139mm
Bodyfat: 18.40%
Lean Body Mass: 177 lbs.

Initial bodyfat percentage data not available, but his before-picture is an accurate representation of a male at 10% or below.
Assuming 10% bodyfat on 8/27/09
LBM @ 162: 145.8 lbs.

Gain in LBM in 11 weeks: 31.27 lbs., or 2.84 lbs./week
Gain in bodyfat in 11 weeks: 23.73 lbs.
For an approximate LBM gain of 60%


Cliff Swanson
Age: 27
Bodyweight on 7/15/09: 175
Bodyweight on 10/15/09: 220
Cliff's bodyweight has remained constant for the past month due to being off-program, his skinfolds were taken today.
Sum of seven skinfolds: 133mm
Bodyfat: 15.30%
Lean Body Mass: 186.34 lbs.
Again, initial bodyfat percentage data is not available, so we will assume two scenarios:

Assuming 12% bodyfat on 7/15/09,
LBM @ 175: 154 lbs.
Gain in LBM in 12 weeks: 32.34 lbs., or 2.69 lbs./week
Bodyfat gain in 12 weeks: 12.66 lbs.
for an approximate LBM gain of 60%

Assuming 10% bodyfat on 7/15/09,
LBM @ 175: 157.5 lbs.
Gain in LBM in 12 weeks: 28.84 lbs., or 2.40 lbs./week
Bodyfat gain in 12 weeks: 16.16 lbs.
for an approximate LBM gain of 56%

The point here is that there is no scenario or assumption possible in these two cases that is consistent with a LBM increase of less than 2.40 lbs. per week.

[RandallH1989]

Rip, out of curiosity, what did these trainees eat other than GOMAD during this time?

[JLascek]

There is nothing to be gained by dogmatically claiming "no, just squat and drink milk."



Outside of this community, this is not dogma -- even though we have repeated this type of improvement time and time again.


And for clarification, Cliff's being "off program" means he got sick a couple of times and injured another time. He is in the midst of upping the calories once again to make a solid push for 240. Should go well with the holidays upon us.

[msingh]

Was Zach at his heaviest at 73.6 kg? Or was there some memory effect in play during his time on SS? If he was simply regaining bodyweight he'd previously possessed that should be determined.

Also his waist looks significantly bigger in the AFTER picture. is the 17% figure reliable considering it is a skinfold measurement and not one of the more accurate means of measuring bodyfat? Although even if you assume something like 25% bf he still gained over 1kg lbm/week!! Do we know his waist size? Is it in the high 30s?

Zach must be some kind of freak and i'd love to know how he did it. I started at the same height and bodyweight as Zach, did starting strength, still am doing starting strength, and have probably put on 10 kg of muscle and 25 kg of fat. For my efforts i've become a big fat dude. What's more, i've never observed the same increases as strength as he has made in 10 weeks.

Is there something self selecting about the guys who train at Wichita Falls? Not everyone can be an AC or a Justin Lascek or even Zach. Maybe you're just getting some genetic freaks to work with?

[Steve in ATL]

Since I won't be racing next year, for shits and giggles, I decided to give caloric surplus a go. Now, I didn't GOMAD, but my diet is in no way protein / calorie challenged, and I do have to watch my girlish figure.

I use the starting strength lifts / novice progression every year after coming off the end of the cycling year to get back to the previous year's numbers, but this year I decided to do something different: instead of (very, very) carefully managing caloric intake so as to not gain much weight, I just went overboard on the calories. Milkshakes with whole milk / ice cream, steak (ribeye - breakfast / lunch / dinner of champions!), whatever. Probably 3500-4000 cal / day.

The result? My waistline (which I use as my body fat measure since that's where I deposit the mostest firstest) went up 1 inch, as it does every winter. This however, is telling:

Weight on 10/06/2009: 208#
Weight on 11/15/2009: 232#

That's 24 pounds in 40 days. For a 43 year old.

YMMV.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Mr Singh, you are becoming irritating, not for questioning our methods but for questioning my intelligence and ability. What method, aside from the H2O tank, regarded as the gold standard, do you regard as more accurate than a skinfold caliper in the hands of an experienced tester? And why is Zach a freak because you have not obtained his results?

Addendum: Zach is a freak. No doubt. I have never seen anyone gain so much proportionate weight so fast. But Cliff's example is rather common. The point is that it is more likely that you have not correctly followed the program, which we know works like this, than it is that Zach is not actually representative of the right kid doing the right program with the right diet and rest at the right time in his life.

[Steve in ATL]

Mr Singh, you are becoming irritating, not for questioning our methods but for questioning my intelligence and ability. What method, aside from the H2O tank, regarded as the gold standard, do you regard as more accurate than a skinfold caliper in the hands of an experienced tester? And why is Zach a freak because you have not obtained his results?

Mr. Singh can look at my numbers and come to the conclusion that it's not just in Texas, Mark. Since I live in Atlanta. Jesus Christ, when are people going to figure out that the human body will adapt to almost anything short of incineration in molten lava if you give it the resources to do so?

[msingh]

Mr Singh, you are becoming irritating, not for questioning our methods but for questioning my intelligence and ability. What method, aside from the H2O tank, regarded as the gold standard, do you regard as more accurate than a skinfold caliper in the hands of an experienced tester? And why is Zach a freak because you have not obtained his results?

I was under the impression that a skinfold test doesn't account for subcutaneous fat storage. So something like a Bone Density Scan is more useful. But I defer to your better judgement and experience on such matters. I'll find something better to do than irritate you, Mark, thank you for sharing the data. I look forward to recreating the same results with my young and skinny brother, and i'll share the data with the community.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Mr. Singh, you need to become more familiar with several things. But I look forward to hearing about your brother's success.

[Alyion]

Rip, out of curiosity, what did these trainees eat other than GOMAD during this time?

If it is the same Cliff from 70's big it was this:

http://70sbig.com/?m=20091001

As for bf% - who really gives a shit? Both Cliff and Zach are young and are building strength that will last them their lifetimes - bf is a hell of a lot easier to lose.

Plus at the end of the day, if I was in a fight and wanted someone at my side, i'd pick new Zach any day of the week - hell i'd probably use the old Zach as bait.

[Kyle Aaron]

The point here is that there is no scenario or assumption possible in these two cases that is consistent with a LBM increase of less than 2.40 lbs. per week.
Excellent gains, great to hear of!

Now, could it be that there is a limit to how much a novice could gain in a year, but not so much per week or month? That is, the gains in lean body mass are like the gains in strength, they're biggest in the first months of a programme, and don't usually come linearly?

It's obvious to me that whatever the physiological limits of how much muscle you can add or how fast, other limits are MUCH more important - how regular the training is, how well-designed (eg is it just bench press and biceps curls), their diet and sleep, and so on. It's like arguing about whether your car can do 80mph or 85mph, when you never ever hit the accelerator hard enough to pass 55mph.

Still, it's interesting to think about.

[fluxboy]

Well, I'll throw these pics up again:

Day 1

http://bp0.blogger.com/_lD95A0-2r7w/SFYW9PaUE-I/AAAAAAAAAA0/L2OwV47CaT8/s320/Day1.bmp

(3x5) Squat: 185 lbs
(3x5) Bench: 135 lbs
(1x5) Deadlift: 185 lbs
(3x5) Press: 95 lbs
(3x5) Power Clean: 95 lbs
Bodyweight: 175 lbs

Day 57

http://bp2.blogger.com/_lD95A0-2r7w/SJVCTzBA0MI/AAAAAAAAACo/Rj2uKGiqPus/s320/Day57.bmp

Squat: 330 x 3
Bench: 200 x 5
Deadlift: 335 x 3
Press: 135 x 5
Cleans: 185 x 3
Bodyweight: 210.1

--------------------------

At the time, I thought I did pretty good. Now I just sorta laugh. Just a skinny old man (37) who became slightly less skinny.

I'll post new pics when I hit 300 lbs.

Insofar as this thread is concerned, please don't place limits on your potential. Strength is your birthright. It really is a matter of will. I would encourage all new trainees to aim for one new pound of bodyweight per day.

Best,
Flux

[Dave M]

Thanks for the great data, Coach Rippetoe, and the pictures. And I look forward to seeing the testimonials on 70's Big, guys.

While my end goal is not to be 70's big, I too am a person who apparently gained more mass than is possible by following your instructions (170 to 200 lbs bodyweight in 7 weeks, I estimate at least 10 lbm of muscle--probably closer to 15--as I went back to 185 and was then using the same belt loop as I was at 170).

MSinghs problem is he thinks you are the guy on the infomercial going
"Look at the results*! And they can be yours for just 5 easy payments of 49.99!
*your results may vary"

You aren't that guy! I think it's clear that you have no interest in tricking people, or in misrepresenting the results that are possible because
1) The programming you advocate for novices is almost entirely available online for FREE. So what's the benefit to you? So they buy one or two books their entire training career (as is possible with the quality of your books)?
2) Lying to people about what is possible will not further the pursuit of actually getting people stronger because sooner or later they would realize you are full of crap.


Thanks for everything, Rip!

[gman]

Was Zach at his heaviest at 73.6 kg? Or was there some memory effect in play during his time on SS? If he was simply regaining bodyweight he'd previously possessed that should be determined.

Also his waist looks significantly bigger in the AFTER picture. is the 17% figure reliable considering it is a skinfold measurement and not one of the more accurate means of measuring bodyfat? Although even if you assume something like 25% bf he still gained over 1kg lbm/week!! Do we know his waist size? Is it in the high 30s?

Zach must be some kind of freak and i'd love to know how he did it. I started at the same height and bodyweight as Zach, did starting strength, still am doing starting strength, and have probably put on 10 kg of muscle and 25 kg of fat. For my efforts i've become a big fat dude. What's more, i've never observed the same increases as strength as he has made in 10 weeks.

Is there something self selecting about the guys who train at Wichita Falls? Not everyone can be an AC or a Justin Lascek or even Zach. Maybe you're just getting some genetic freaks to work with?

Haven't you heard the saying that everything is bigger in Texas? Of course that is the only logical explanation. Also probably expains the size of Rip's arms as well.
Case closed.

[TomF]

My 16 year old son is currently lifting according to the program, but while he's stayed at the table longer, he's still not eating enough or doing GOMAD.

But even though the bloody kid isn't eating like a house on fire, and even though he's done a couple of short stints of SS before (so it's not never-trained newb gains), he's put on #7 since Halloween. Visually, he's gained no bodyfat; at 5'5" Chris is now a mighty #117 pounds, and his abs/ribs/internal organs show as much as ever. In the 7 weeks or so he's willing to continue this cycle, we may bring his mass up to a thunderous #140-145 or so. If he drinks enough egg nog. He'll lose whatever fat he gains when his training shifts its major focus from strength to the erg in January, in prep for the spring rowing season.

Chris squatted an honest and deep 3X5 @ #200 on Sunday - the first time he's ever held that much weight on his back. As a small and undernourished lad, we're progressing his squats by only #5/workout ... but even at that rate he'll be repping +/- #300 by New Year's. Well over double body weight. His DL should be #350-#375.

I can hardly wait to see his eyes pop at the performance differences in his rowing, once he's tuned that bigger/stronger engine up with some erg work.

[scotts]

There are too many variables involved to make a general statement about weight gain. It depends on gender, age, training age, how you train, how often you train, what you eat, how much you eat, metabolism, genetics, recovery ability, sleeping habits, and many more or less important factors. Unless all these variables are accounted for, the statistics are meaningless, and if you take all the variables into account, you can't make general statements.

If you ask Mr. Abs at the biceps curl machine how much he gains a year, he will tell you a pound, and he will be right. What importance is this information to someone who is actually going to squat? It is assholes like these, the ones who furl their eyebrows when you deadlift, who are skewing the statistics in the first place. Statistically, most men gain a fraction of what they could because they don't know how to train or eat to get big and strong. Instead of looking for statistics to justify mediocrity, why not just lift and eat and see what actually happens?

[knkavo]

For my efforts i've become a big fat dude.

Count your blessings. You could still be a small skinny dude.

[dfh]

Only 10kg of Muscle and 25kg of fat - that it much harder for me to wrap my head around than the previously posted results.

I wish Joey Chestnut or Kobayashi would do the program and post their results.

[Jefferson]

Was Zach at his heaviest at 73.6 kg? Or was there some memory effect in play during his time on SS? If he was simply regaining bodyweight he'd previously possessed that should be determined.

Also his waist looks significantly bigger in the AFTER picture. is the 17% figure reliable considering it is a skinfold measurement and not one of the more accurate means of measuring bodyfat? Although even if you assume something like 25% bf he still gained over 1kg lbm/week!! Do we know his waist size? Is it in the high 30s?

Zach must be some kind of freak and i'd love to know how he did it. I started at the same height and bodyweight as Zach, did starting strength, still am doing starting strength, and have probably put on 10 kg of muscle and 25 kg of fat. For my efforts i've become a big fat dude. What's more, i've never observed the same increases as strength as he has made in 10 weeks. [

Is there something self selecting about the guys who train at Wichita Falls? Not everyone can be an AC or a Justin Lascek or even Zach. Maybe you're just getting some genetic freaks to work with?


If you didn't experience the same strength increases, then you weren't adding the amount of weight to the bar per workout required by the program, so your body wasn't stimulated to build as much muscle as it would have been if you had actually done starting strength.

[JLascek]

I was under the impression that a skinfold test doesn't account for subcutaneous fat storage. So something like a Bone Density Scan is more useful. But I defer to your better judgement and experience on such matters. I'll find something better to do than irritate you, Mark, thank you for sharing the data. I look forward to recreating the same results with my young and skinny brother, and i'll share the data with the community.

Getting a DEXA or a hydrostatic weighing system in our gym, much less Wichita Falls, is a bit out of the question, Singh. There's been a lot of research supporting the validity and reliability of both a 3 and 7 site pinch test (Jackson/Pollock) to measure bodyfat. Using any other complicated or expensive measure would be a waste of our time -- time that takes away from making people stronger and larger.

Regarding your comment on Zach's waist looking wider; well, of course it would be. 60% of that bodyweight increase is muscle, and contrary to the fitness industry's belief, muscle grows around the trunk with barbell training. People who are strong get bigger, muscular abs. Zach obviously has fat lying on top of it, but it would be foolish to think his waist increased in size solely because of fat.

I aslo refuse to believe that Zach is a genetic freak. He is an anomaly and freak simply because he not only did what he was told to do, but he went beyond our instruction (drinking 2 gallons of milk in a day proves this). Regarding strength, he is not special, although he has gotten a great deal stronger. While there are some people that are fortunate enough to do better than others in strength training, it can not be merely a coincidence that everybody that Rip, AC, or I coach gains an abormal amount of strength, weight, and subsequently muscle. There is a lot to be said about having a good coach.

Just because your experience was gaining a lot of bodyfat does not mean it will be the same experience for everyone else.


If it is the same Cliff from 70's big it was this:

http://70sbig.com/?m=20091001

As for bf% - who really gives a shit? Both Cliff and Zach are young and are building strength that will last them their lifetimes - bf is a hell of a lot easier to lose.

Plus at the end of the day, if I was in a fight and wanted someone at my side, i'd pick new Zach any day of the week - hell i'd probably use the old Zach as bait.


That's the same Cliff. Cliff and Zach share similar strength increases, although Cliff is a solid deadlifter (has pulled 405 for five, and recently pulled an ugly set at 410 after his month of disruption). Keep in mind Cliff is 27 -- young, but not as young as Zach (20 years old).

[klir_2m]

Was Zach at his heaviest at 73.6 kg? Or was there some memory effect in play during his time on SS? If he was simply regaining bodyweight he'd previously possessed that should be determined.

Also his waist looks significantly bigger in the AFTER picture. is the 17% figure reliable considering it is a skinfold measurement and not one of the more accurate means of measuring bodyfat? Although even if you assume something like 25% bf he still gained over 1kg lbm/week!! Do we know his waist size? Is it in the high 30s?

Zach must be some kind of freak and i'd love to know how he did it. I started at the same height and bodyweight as Zach, did starting strength, still am doing starting strength, and have probably put on 10 kg of muscle and 25 kg of fat. For my efforts i've become a big fat dude. What's more, i've never observed the same increases as strength as he has made in 10 weeks.

Is there something self selecting about the guys who train at Wichita Falls? Not everyone can be an AC or a Justin Lascek or even Zach. Maybe you're just getting some genetic freaks to work with?

I made similar strength increases as Zach while doing SS on a weight loss diet. After my weight stabilized at 197 for several weeks, I went on GOMAD + see-food, and gained 21 lbs in 4 weeks. It took 10 days of dieting to get back down to my pre-bulk fat levels, but 11 lbs heavier. After that I went back on GOMAD and have been eating around 6000 cals a day, currently in my 3rd week of doing so, and have put on another 18 lbs. My squat and dead are currently over 400 lbs, up from ~200 lbs around mid-August.

On the one hand, I would seem to think my genetics are unusually good, but on the other, what would you expect from drinking a gallon of milk a day, eating 6000 calories a day total, and lifting really freaking heavy weights 3 days a week?

[dodgy]

There are too many variables involved to make a general statement about weight gain. It depends on gender, age, training age, how you train, how often you train, what you eat, how much you eat, metabolism, genetics, recovery ability, sleeping habits, and many more or less important factors. Unless all these variables are accounted for, the statistics are meaningless, and if you take all the variables into account, you can't make general statements.

If you ask Mr. Abs at the biceps curl machine how much he gains a year, he will tell you a pound, and he will be right. What importance is this information to someone who is actually going to squat? It is assholes like these, the ones who furl their eyebrows when you deadlift, who are skewing the statistics in the first place. Statistically, most men gain a fraction of what they could because they don't know how to train or eat to get big and strong. Instead of looking for statistics to justify mediocrity, why not just lift and eat and see what actually happens?

^what he said. I am not a Texan, although I have lived in TX in the past. I am also not genetically gifted, have never been really good in sports or particularly strong. I've been doing SS for nearly three months and am still making gains in strength and body weight. I'm not much fatter, despite eating like a horse and doing GOMAD. But every workout is just that, a workout. After the first month or so, it requires determination and commitment, but I think most people who do SS properly, get their rest, and eat will get results.

I'm just writing as another witness about the reality of what this program can do to help people get stronger and put on more muscle.

[Platus]

For what it's worth, my BF% has gone down while on the program (from 21% to 18%). My commitment to the eating has been lax, but my BW has still gone up a steady 2lbs per week with about 10% of the gains being fat (+/- my accuracy with the calipers).

[kthxbai]

I wouldn't put too much trust in a non-hydrostatic bodyfat measuring system, but who really cares? If you are a bodybuilder and need to know how much to lose to get into contest shape, fine. I don't think that applies to many of us. The important thing is that these people get big and strong without looking fat and these results encourage people like me to forget about the statistics and try it for themselves.

[Bloodninja666]

Coming from a hard science background, it's rather amazing to me this phenomenon hasn't been studied in a formalized way. I just did a search, I cannot find any controlled research. Exactly what do academics in the field of Exercise Science do?

Im willing to bet the Soviets or Chi-Coms have looked for these answers at some point... anyone on the board read Russian or Cantonese?

[JLascek]

I wouldn't put too much trust in a non-hydrostatic bodyfat measuring system, but who really cares? If you are a bodybuilder and need to know how much to lose to get into contest shape, fine. I don't think that applies to many of us. The important thing is that these people get big and strong without looking fat and these results encourage people like me to forget about the statistics and try it for themselves.

If you don't "put too much trust" into anything but hydrostatic weighing (in this case, an experienced caliper user), then you don't know what you're talking about. If you're used to someone at your local "gym" or "health center" doing this, then of course they are probably going to be bad at it. I've done a Jackson/Pollock caliper pinch test on literally hundreds of people, and I couldn't imagine how many Rip has done them on.

It irritates me that some of you think we don't know what the hell we're doing.

[Mark Rippetoe]

It irritates me that some of you think we don't know what the hell we're doing.

We know what the hell we're doing? When did that happen?


Coming from a hard science background, it's rather amazing to me this phenomenon hasn't been studied in a formalized way. I just did a search, I cannot find any controlled research. Exactly what do academics in the field of Exercise Science do?


What a luscious, tempting question...

[Brad Davis]

...What a luscious, tempting question...
Does that mean that we can expect to see a journal paper sometime soon reporting the strength, LBM, and bodyfat increases of a bunch of trainees at the WFAC? That would be something to read.

[matclone]

Coming from a hard science background, it's rather amazing to me this phenomenon hasn't been studied in a formalized way. I just did a search, I cannot find any controlled research. Exactly what do academics in the field of Exercise Science do?

Im willing to bet the Soviets or Chi-Coms have looked for these answers at some point... anyone on the board read Russian or Cantonese?


Coming from a hard science background, it's rather amazing to me this phenomenon hasn't been studied in a formalized way. I just did a search, I cannot find any controlled research. Exactly what do academics in the field of Exercise Science do?

Im willing to bet the Soviets or Chi-Coms have looked for these answers at some point... anyone on the board read Russian or Cantonese?

Why would the Chinese or Russians, both who have strong weightlifting teams and traditions, where the goal is to lift more weight, be concerned with bodyfat percentages?

So, one answer to your question, may be that no one has considered the issue of LBM to be relevant.

Another answer might be that the many factors involved (training, diet, rest) would be difficult to control--especially over a longitudinal period (which I presume you'd want to look at).

I have more anecdotal evidence to offer, FWIW: the great wrestler Cael Sanderson (2004 Olympic champion), went from 145 pounds to 171 pounds (wrestling weight) between his junior and senior years in high school--a gain of 26 pounds in a sport where the participants are almost always cutting weight during the competition season, i.e., not eating all they can, and where bodyfat is typically very low (except for the heavyweights). This tells me Sanderson probably gained close to 26 pounds of muscle in a year, and didn't eat all he could. What could someone else do, given a full plate and some heavy weights?

[Kyle Aaron]

Coming from a hard science background, it's rather amazing to me this phenomenon hasn't been studied in a formalized way. I just did a search, I cannot find any controlled research. Exactly what do academics in the field of Exercise Science do?
One guy once expressed the problem of psychological and physiological research as: with animals, you can make them do anything, but you can't ask them anything; with humans, you can ask them anything, but can't make them do anything.

To really get a good idea, you'd need to get hundreds of subjects over a year or two, and control all their exercise and all their diet. Plenty of studies have controlled their exercise and some supplementation of their diet, but none have controlled all their diet.

And diet, as is said again and again by people here, is a very important thing. You can't put on extra pounds without extra food. The scientists don't get to lock people up and feed them a pound of beef a day to see what happens. (Though I'm sure this would appeal to Rip.)

If people lie about their diets to their dieticians and coaches, or tell them the truth but ignore their advice, you can hardly expect some scientist to be able to find out the truth and get them to stick to it.

[MAD9692]

I went from being a 175lb Xfitter to 220lbs in less than 5 months. At the one year mark my Squat has increased by 150lbs. My gains would have been larger if I didnt do silly things like xfit and zone/paleo everytime I started to feel "fat". At the launch of 70sbig.com - I stopped doing these silly things and got my weight back up to 220lbs. At 220lbs I have a noticeable gut. I don't think this has anything to do with GOMAD or my current addiction to Cheeseburgers, BBQ and Brisket. I blame the gut soley on the large quatity of beer I consume every weekend. I have a hunch that if I cut out the beer for a a month or so a large part of my gut will disappear. If I ever decide to take on this endeavor, I will report the results. It feels good to be a fucking viking.

[KSC]

Well...at the last NSCA seminar I attended, one Exercise Scientist gave us a 45 minute power point presentation with nothing but pictures of him and his fellow scientists standing around in tweed jackets with their arms around each other from about 1968 to the Present.

I don't recall anything about Exercise, Science, Strength, or Conditioning being mentioned in the presentation.

There were some great mustaches in some of the pictures.

Later on in the day we played dodgeball with the Swiss Balls. You think I'm kidding?

One last interesting fact:

I got Continuing Education Credits for this seminar towards my certification....I was denied credits for obtaining my USA Weightlifting Cert. Apparently if the NSCA doesn't receive any money from your continuing education efforts then you don't really learn anything....