How to learn the Power Snatch ?

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Good afternoon everyone,

I think I am approaching the end of the novice phase, having recently stalled on the deadlift (and what a stall it was. Something let go in the lowerback, I could barely walk for the next two days. I'm still recovering now, one week after the event).

I have therefore started to collect ideas for the next phase. My first intermediate program will be modelled on the Texas Method explained in PPST. In particular, I would like to introduce the Power Snatch on the recovery day.

The reason for this is simple and totally irrational: it just looks like a beautiful lift. I like the Power Clean a lot, and the Snatch version would make a very good addition.

And here comes the question: does anyone know a good source of information on how to perform this lift ?

Ideally, I would need something like Rips' explaination of the Power Clean, as written in SSBBT. I am not sure Rip has ever written a chapter on the Power Snatch (I'll be glad to be proven wrong), so I'll have to make do with other material. I have tried to look on the web for information, but nothing of what I've found so far seems to be of acceptable standard. I know, the material on SSBBT has spoiled me, but there must be some middle ground between Rip's prose and a two minute video with minimum commentary.

Hence, I've decided to turn to the community to ask for help. If you know of a good source of material on this lift, I'll be very grateful if you could let me know. Ideally it should be accessible without having to register, but beggars can't be choosers, so any suggestion is welcome.

Thanks in advance, have a good day.


IPB

[rhymer]

MR has said in threads on the old forum that he uses a similar learning progression to the clean. In other words, break it down into parts, then put them together. There is some reasonably good material at the Crossfit site. Look especially at the "Burgener Warmup," which is both a warmup and a learning progression for the hang snatch rolled into one. I'm not much of a fan of pvc for learning these moves, but you do want to stay light and start slow. A 20# bar is useful, if you can find one.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Rhymer,

many thanks for your advice. I've found the relevant article on the Crossfit journal, and a video about the routine. There should be plenty of material to get me started.

Have a good day,

IPB

[Gottatri2lift]

The encyclopedia of weightlifting by arthur dreschler (spelling) explains a lot of the olympic lifts and the variations of them. It could be a good read if you combine it with MR breakdown methodology of the powerclean.

[rhymer]

Fair warning:

When you wander off the SS reservation, you will find that Mark's book has inspired a lot of criticism (overt and implied) re his approach to the start position for the clean, among other things. Or you may just notice that the way people set up to pull in the videos on the various sites looks different than what you've taught yourself to do.

Basically, the contemporary orthodoxy in Olympic lifting circles seems to be that the lifter should start more erect, with the bar a bit further forward than for a deadlift and try to keep the back more erect through the lift. The idea is to improve the efficiency of the second pull and reduce the strain on the lower back. For a more detailed explanation, see here: http://www.cathletics.com/articles/index.php?show=shorty&shortyID=49.

It's an interesting discussion. My opinion (which is worth less than 2c) is that you shouldn't worry about the first pull all that much, unless you intend to compete as an Olympic lifter, in which case you should find a coach.

[coldfire]

Try to learn it the same way you learned to clean. It's pretty much the same jump and catch, with different starting and racking positions.

[coldfire]

For a more detailed explanation, see here: http://www.cathletics.com/articles/index.php?show=shorty&shortyID=49.

It's an interesting discussion. My opinion (which is worth less than 2c) is that you shouldn't worry about the first pull all that much, unless you intend to compete as an Olympic lifter, in which case you should find a coach.



Like a plumb line, the arm always wants to simply hang vertically from its origin under load. We can demonstrate this by holding a light bar or dumbbells, leaning over and relaxing. The load will immediately move and settle with the arms vertical. We can adjust the angle of the back and repeat. The arms settle into a vertical orientation.

The deadlift, on the other hand, is nothing more than a slow and boring first pull—about as simple and straightforward as an exercise can possibly get. Get yourself balanced, hold on tight, and stand up. It’s entirely self-contained, and what happens before and after doesn’t matter.


If we tell ourselves that the first pull of the snatch and clean are identical to that of the deadlift (or should be), we would quite naturally be compelled to follow the rules of the deadlift. Those rules, as we now understand, are simple: whatever works to move the weight. Never in the history of maximal effort deadlifts has there been an extended spine—a rounded back is the hallmark of a truly heavy deadlift, and to at least some degree, is unavoidable under such weights. So should we perform all of our deadlifts—and our snatches and cleans—with a rounded back intentionally?


Similarly, in a maximal effort deadlift, no matter the starting position of the hips, they will assuredly rise faster than the shoulders and wind up in a higher position, unless started at a height at which the knees are nearing full extension. This phenomenon is quite simple: in a low-hipped position, the angle of the knee is such that its mechanics are quite disadvantaged—that is, it’s very difficult to extend the knee under the full load. Because the body knows what to do, it will naturally begin extending the knees with minimal bar movement until the angle of the knee is such that it can bear the full load and begin moving the barbell along with the rest of the body.


A high-hipped, shoulders-a-mile-over-the-bar, bar-over-mid-foot starting position is remarkably easy to learn and immediately put into practice—this is, in my opinion, the primary reason it’s become more popular among those unexposed to the weightlifting community.
Plenty of stupid arguments in the article.

I agree with your last statement, though. If you are not an Olympic lifter you shouldn't be concerned with such details.

[rhymer]

I'm not sure that I agree the article is entirely stupid, but I wasn't tendering it as something I entirely agree with either.

I was holding back my own opinion because it's essentially valueless -- I'm just some guy on the internet. But it appears to me that the more erect start position is out there and commonly endorsed by people who appear to have much more of a right to an opinion than I do. So I thought it would be worth preparing the OP for the fact that this is an issue and a potential distraction.

That said, Everett's polemic actually concedes two key points:

1. Some people who are pretty competitive athletes raise their hips at the start, just as Mark suggests will happen; and

2. The start position he advocates is harder to learn and definitely hard to maintain when the pull gets heavy.

So, to me, it sounds as if the bottom line is that the more erect start position probably has some marginal utility for at least some competitive weightlifters. Making its utility in a novice strength program very, very questionable. Especially when you note that a big part of his rationale is an attempt to protect the lower back from stress, which isn't part of the goal when you're doing sets of three across for strength training purposes.

Anyway, it sounds like we agree the OP should necessarily worry about any of this unless he has a serious interest in Olympic lifting, in which case he should find a coach sooner rather than later and do what s/he says, not what someone on the internet says.

[coldfire]

I'm not sure that I agree the article is entirely stupid, but I wasn't tendering it as something I entirely agree with either.

I was holding back my own opinion because it's essentially valueless -- I'm just some guy on the internet. But it appears to me that the more erect start position is out there and commonly endorsed by people who appear to have much more of a right to an opinion than I do. So I thought it would be worth preparing the OP for the fact that this is an issue and a potential distraction.

That said, Everett's polemic actually concedes two key points:

1. Some people who are pretty competitive athletes raise their hips at the start, just as Mark suggests will happen; and

2. The start position he advocates is harder to learn and definitely hard to maintain when the pull gets heavy.

So, to me, it sounds as if the bottom line is that the more erect start position probably has some marginal utility for at least some competitive weightlifters. Making its utility in a novice strength program very, very questionable. Especially when you note that a big part of his rationale is an attempt to protect the lower back from stress, which isn't part of the goal when you're doing sets of three across for strength training purposes.

Anyway, it sounds like we agree the OP should necessarily worry about any of this unless he has a serious interest in Olympic lifting, in which case he should find a coach sooner rather than later and do what s/he says, not what someone on the internet says.

I didn't say that the article is entirely stupid, just that it has plenty of arguments I consider stupid, regardless of how famous/experienced the author is.

He has a few good points, but I can't say I enjoyed reading it.

[matclone]

I disagree with the comments that the first pull is irrelevant unless you're a competitive weightlifter. That's like saying your squat form is irrelevant unless you're a competitive powerlifter. Form matters. A bad pull = less weight.

Why do you suppose Rippetoe, who is a certified Senior USAW (i.e., weightlifting) coach spends such time and detail describing these lifts (specifically the power clean and the deadlift); why do you suggest his recommendations are invalid (consider that there may be more than one "right" way do it); and why post a long and largely incomprehensible essay on the subject? (like 95% of literature on this stuff. It's one thing to know how to lift well; it's another thing to know how to coach well; it's yet another thing to know how to write well about what you know; and that's why Rip's books are exceptional)

I agree, Sig. Brutto; the snatch (or the power snatch) is a great lift. It's not terribly difficult to learn. Same principles as the clean; tight arched back, bar over forefoot, elbows out. Everett's photos are good. Have fun with it, and get strong.

Some other resources besides Artie Dreschler's book, are Tommy Kono's book, vid's from USAW (if still available), Denis Reno's newsletter, Mike's Gym, goheavy.com, and, of course, a coach.

[coldfire]

I disagree with the comments that the first pull is irrelevant unless you're a competitive weightlifter. That's like saying your squat form is irrelevant unless you're a competitive powerlifter. Form matters. A bad pull = less weight.

Why do you suppose Rippetoe, who is a certified Senior USAW (i.e., weightlifting) coach spends such time and detail describing these lifts (specifically the power clean and the deadlift); why do you suggest his recommendations are invalid (consider that there may be more than one "right" way do it); and why post a long and largely incomprehensible essay on the subject? (like 95% of literature on this stuff. It's one thing to know how to lift well; it's another thing to know how to coach well; it's yet another thing to know how to write well about what you know; and that's why Rip's books are exceptional)

I agree, Sig. Brutto; the snatch (or the power snatch) is a great lift. It's not terribly difficult to learn. Same principles as the clean; tight arched back, bar over forefoot, elbows out. Everett's photos are good. Have fun with it, and get strong.

Some other resources besides Artie Dreschler's book, are Tommy Kono's book, vid's from USAW (if still available), Denis Reno's newsletter, Mike's Gym, goheavy.com, and, of course, a coach.

Squat technnique is important, but you wouldn't squat like a powerlifter unless you are one.

I doubt that a first pull would limit the weight you can power clean if you are not a Weightlifter.

[matclone]

Maybe I don't undestand your point. It seems basic to me that bad form, especially in a novice, is going to mess with his lifts. With respect to the first pull, let me count the ways:
--lats not tight
--back not arched
--looking down
--looking at the girl across the room
--barbell jammed up against the shins before squatting down
--bent arms
--improperly spaced hands
--pulling from the toes
--etc etc

[coldfire]

Maybe I don't undestand your point. It seems basic to me that bad form, especially in a novice, is going to mess with his lifts. With respect to the first pull, let me count the ways:
--lats not tight
--back not arched
--looking down
--looking at the girl across the room
--barbell jammed up against the shins before squatting down
--bent arms
--improperly spaced hands
--pulling from the toes
--etc etc

We are not arguing against bad form vs. good form. We are arguing about the effect of the firt pull using Rip's style vs Everett's style on someone who isn't a weightlifter.
Don't get me wrong here. I pull the way Rip describes because it makes more sense to me, and I said that Greg's arguments sound rather silly, but I just don't think it makes a lot of difference, unless you are a weightlifter.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Gentlemen (and Ladies, obviously),

thank you very much for all the input.
I have no ambition regarding Olympic lifts; I just think they are beautiful athletic movements, and mastering them, even to a very low degree, will give me a lot of satisfaction. Hence why I want to include them in my program.

Regarding the discussion about the first pull, I think I now understand what Mark Rippetoe wrote to me in another thread (which you can find here, with videos: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=13440).

I asked him to comment on my Deadlift and Power Clean form, and one of this notes was simply: "your PC need to look more like your DL". I must admit I could not penetrate these cryptic words but now, thanks to your comments, I think I have a key.

Thanks again,

IPB



PS
(you're welcome to comment further on those videos, should you want to).

[rhymer]

matclone:

Yes, you're misreading me/us. There are obviously plenty of ways to pull that are just plain wrong, which OP should avoid. The issue is this technical debate about the correct back angle for the first pull, which is out there, whether you like it or not. I think the OP should know about it because it will help him understand the video he's looking at and some of the stuff that he will be reading, but I also think it's something he should not worry about given his goals.

[rhymer]

PS:

I have no business coaching anyone, so I'll leave the commenting on videos for other folk.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

PS:

I have no business coaching anyone, so I'll leave the commenting on videos for other folk.

fair point, nicely put across. Thanks,

IPB