Batman bench and Darth vader deadlifts

[confuzzl3don3]

Now that i've got your attention, can i ask some questions about my lifts?

From today's workout:
Bench: 57kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da20nQEkeJc

Is the form ok? Am hitting too low on my chest? and should my bar path be like vertical? I see like a little loop at the bottom where the bar gets further away from me. Is that right?

And deadlifts: 112.5kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB1FdoeLeDE

Once again i see the lower back rounding but i seriously don't know how to fix it. It seems like my natural setup position is already quite parallel to the ground making it easy for me to become more rounded. But if i try to lower my hips before the lift, it makes me in a crappier position to begin the lift and i often end up returning to the original position after that rep. Would it be because i'm standing on a board so that i'm slightly higher up than i should be? Back at the uni gym i would use the deadlift platform that had bumper plates which had a greater diameter so the bar could sit higher up. Do i need to somehow artifically raise the plates by maybe putting some boards under them?

Thanks again guys.

[nisora33]

First, why I are you standing on the board, out of curiosity?

Second, in a recent thread Rip revealed a neat little cue that he uses to get guys to arch their backs at the bottom of the squat: at the bottom, think about dropping the head of your dick down and back between your knees.

No joke. Try it and see if it works. Otherwise, you can try any of the number of tricks he uses to teach a hard arch and that are described in Starting Strength.

-Stacey

[confuzzl3don3]

First, why I are you standing on the board, out of curiosity?

Second, in a recent thread Rip revealed a neat little cue that he uses to get guys to arch their backs at the bottom of the squat: at the bottom, think about dropping the head of your dick down and back between your knees.

No joke. Try it and see if it works. Otherwise, you can try any of the number of tricks he uses to teach a hard arch and that are described in Starting Strength.

-Stacey

Haha ok. You mean for my deadlift not the squat right. Or for both seeing as u should have an arc (or at least flat back) for both anyways. And i'm standing on a board because it gives me a harder surface rather than the carpet underneath it. It's like squatting/lifting in runners on carpet

[Kenny Croxdale]

Now that i've got your attention, can i ask some questions about my lifts?

From today's workout:
Bench: 57kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da20nQEkeJc

Is the form ok? Am hitting too low on my chest? and should my bar path be like vertical? I see like a little loop at the bottom where the bar gets further away from me. Is that right?

Confuzzl,

It hard to tell from the angle you shot it. But overall it look good.
Dr Tom McLaughlin (Bench Press More Now) in a biomechanical analysis determined in the bench press trajectory/bar path is driven back toward you head, not vertically/moving in a straight line.

McLaughin also wrote an article, "Bench Press Technique For Elite Heavyweight Powerlifters". The article demonstrates the bench press bar trajectory/bar path of lightweigh as well as heavyweight lifters.

If you interested in the article, I can email it to you.


And deadlifts: 112.5kg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB1FdoeLeDE

Once again i see the lower back rounding but i seriously don't know how to fix it. It seems like my natural setup position is already quite parallel to the ground making it easy for me to become more rounded. But if i try to lower my hips before the lift, it makes me in a crappier position to begin the lift and i often end up returning to the original position after that rep.

Strengthening you abdominals will solve some of your rounding. Also, you want to perform an isometric action with you abdominals, basically locking your trunk into a ridig unbendable position.

A good method of cueing your abdominals to do this is to wear a powerlifting belt. Prior to pulling the weight up, push your abdominals into the belt.

However, in a max attempt of the deadlift some rounding of the back will usually take place; but it should happen with light/moderate loads.

From what I can see, your start position looks pretty good to me. In the deadlift you want more of a high hip position placing you legs in a quater squat postion. The quater squat position is much stronger than a lower/half squat position.

Kenny Croxdael

.

[nisora33]

Kenny, I guarantee a good coach could fix his round back problem in a jiffy without any added abdominal work or a belt. I've not found anybody who, given enough time and practice, couldn't get their back hard-arched with some quality supervision and coaching. Confuzzled's issue, I guarantee is more of a mind-body problem at this point. My 2 cents.

[confuzzl3don3]

Thanks both of you for the excellent advice. I'll work on trying to keep a rigid trunk when deadlifting. It's just funny that when i actually pull it doesn't seem like it's rounded that much but when i look on the vid it tells a diff story.

And about the bench, so it shouldn't be vertical? So i'm not hitting too low on the chest?

[Platus]

And about the bench, so it shouldn't be vertical? So i'm not hitting too low on the chest? Correct. As Kenny noted, although from a mechanical standpoint a vertical bar path would be the most efficient, from a biomechanical standpoint the most efficient path tends to touch somewhere on the chest at the bottom and end towards your head at the top.

[confuzzl3don3]

Correct. As Kenny noted, although from a mechanical standpoint a vertical bar path would be the most efficient, from a biomechanical standpoint the most efficient path tends to touch somewhere on the chest at the bottom and end towards your head at the top.


sweet thanks for clearing that up for me then :D

[Kenny Croxdale]

Thanks both of you for the excellent advice. I'll work on trying to keep a rigid trunk when deadlifting.

Confuzzl,

A powerlifting belt can be used as a "cueing" device to insure that you remain rigid. Pushing your abdominals into your belt provides you with feed back. Dr Mel Siff noted that in his book, Supertraining.

Another function of the belt when lifting heavy loads is that pushing your abdominals into your belt, increases support for your lower back.

You want a belt that is just as wide in the front as it is in the back. (Some exception exist). That enables you to have a greater surface to push against with you abdominals. Thus, powerlifing belts that are about 4 inches all the way around work best.

The lower back support provided by pushing you abdominals on the belt has to do with (Dr Mel Siff--Facts and Fallacies and Supertraining) Intra Abdominal Pressure, IAP. Greater Intra Abdominal Pressure increases stabilization of the erectors.

Intra-Abdominal Pressure

"Pressure within the abdominal cavity. Increases in intra-abdominal pressure during lifting stiffen and support the lumbar vertebrae to help prevent the spine from buckling under compressive loads. The action of the abdominal muscles can increase this pressure and contribute to spinal support." http://www.answers.com/topic/intra-abdominal-pressure (http://www.answers.com/topic/intra-abdominal-pressure)


And about the bench, so it shouldn't be vertical?

No, you push the bar back toward your head. I can email you/anyone interested McLaughlin's research article, "Bench Press Of Elite Heavyweight Powerlifters".

The article goes into the bench press technique used by lightweights, too. The article provides pictures breaking down the biomechanics of the bench press.


So i'm not hitting too low on the chest?

Your bar position on your chest looks good to me.

Kenny Croxdale

[knox]

Confuzzled - have you actually read Starting Strength? You claim that you have, but most of the questions you ask about proper lifting form are covered directly and in detail in the book.

[nisora33]

Confuzzled,

Do you have the same problem with keeping the back extended at, say, 135 lbs. as you do at 225 lbs?

If you do, then the problem is a mind-body problem: you need to get used to what it feels like to hold the back in rigid extension, and once you know that feeling, then it should be more reproducible at the heavier weight.

Kenny, I'm not pooh-poohing the use of belts. I know that there is a time and place for the use of them, and I'm in no way averse to their use. Confuzzled, however, is a relative newb, and I think that he's somehow missed learning the proper feel for a hard arch that is easily cued by a coach working one-on-one with him and that he can learn to do this just fine without throwing in extra exercises and added gear. Rip strongly urges a straightforward, no-frills approach to training for his novices--i.e., sticking with the program as it's written. But then, I can't really speak for him, can I?

With that said, I would like to say, Confuzzled, that if you feel that the only way that you can accomplish getting and keeping your spine in rigid extension is with assistance of a belt, do so, but then put it away again until such a time in the future when the load is getting exceedingly heavy, and even then only use it on your worksets, as Rippetoe himself has suggested in Starting Strength and on this forum, more than once.

[confuzzl3don3]

Hmm i'm not sure, I've never taken a vid of my warm up sets. Maybe i should to check that out. I do find i ahve a major problem keeping my core tight on my press, which is what i think is hindering my press. Or maybe because i just have a weak upper body. I find it really difficult to increase weight on my upperbody lifts (press and bench), they're terrible compared to my other dead and squats (even though both aren't that great.) Just today i fked up my last set of press at 37kg. I feel really unstable and just can't seem to press the weight up sigh.

[Alyion]

No, you push the bar back toward your head. I can email you/anyone interested McLaughlin's research article, "Bench Press Of Elite Heavyweight Powerlifters".



No don't do this, the quickest path between two points is a straight line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kauc-9Dl4fc&NR=1 - 0:05 second mark.

Benching in an arc is useful from a powerlifting standpoint to potentially lift more weight, but SS benching isn't about simply getting better at bench press. It is more about getting stronger via the bench press

[coldfire]

No don't do this, the quickest path between two points is a straight line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kauc-9Dl4fc&NR=1 - 0:05 second mark.

Benching in an arc is useful from a powerlifting standpoint to potentially lift more weight, but SS benching isn't about simply getting better at bench press. It is more about getting stronger via the bench press

While you should be thinking about pushing the bar up, it doesn't move in a straight line when you bench press.

[confuzzl3don3]

Wait now i'm confused. I remember something about Rippetoe saying that the most efficient path is straight up and down, but at the same time i think he said something about the anatomy of the shoulder (and rotator cuff muscles?) that meant that it couldn't be perfectly straight. Or was this just the angle of the upper arm with the torso (how it should be 90 degrees with the body so there will be no shoulder lever arm, but it puts the shoulder in an uncomfortable, injury-prone position)

[Alyion]

Yes both points are 100% correct, it is impossible for the bar to move in a perfectly straight line anyway - the body doesnt work that way which is one of the reasons towards arching the back.
The position of the arms (between 90 degress and parallel to the torso) would also suggest a slight bar movement. However ending the bench with the bar directly over the face shouldn't be performed

[BCS]

Hmm i'm not sure, I've never taken a vid of my warm up sets. Maybe i should to check that out. I do find i ahve a major problem keeping my core tight on my press, which is what i think is hindering my press. Or maybe because i just have a weak upper body. I find it really difficult to increase weight on my upperbody lifts (press and bench), they're terrible compared to my other dead and squats (even though both aren't that great.) Just today i fked up my last set of press at 37kg. I feel really unstable and just can't seem to press the weight up sigh.

Are you eating enough? Upper body exercises are more bodyweight dependent than their lower body brethren. Are you doing weighted sit ups and back extensions? When my squats started to round my back as they got really heavy, I added heavy core work in and it really improved my stability. Nothing crazy, just a few sets at the end of a workout.

[Kenny Croxdale]

No don't do this, the quickest path between two points is a straight line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kauc-9Dl4fc&NR=1 - 0:05 second mark.

Ayion,

Mark is a smart guy and a good friend. However, pushing the bar vertically isn't natural or effective.

Dr Tom McLaughlin is a sports biomechanicist. McLaughlin did extensive research the differences between elite and intermediate/novice bench pressers did and didn't do.

Research is utilized to find out and emulate elite athlete as well as to find out and abstain from what poor athletes do. Find out what successful people do and avoid what unsuccessful people do.

McLaughlin's research found the bar path in a bench press moved down and up at an angle with elite benchers.

McLaughlin presented this information in his book, Bench Press More Now and his research article, "Bench Press Of Elite Heavyweight Powerlifters".

Bench Press More Now is available at crainsmuscleworld.com In a previous post, I offered to email "Bench Press Of Elite Heavyweight Powerlifters".

As Strength Coach Alwyn Cosgrove once said, "No one ever got dumber by reading a book (article)". So, you have more to gain than lose by reading McLaughlin's aritcle.

McLaughlin book and article are excellent reads and will provide you a illustrated diagram of the bench press bar trajectory of elite benchers.

Also, while bench pressing in a straight line shortens the distance, I have two questions.

1) "How much distance does it shorten?" The answer is not that much.

2) "Can you bench press more by pushing the bar straight up or at an angle?" McLauglin's research show you'll push more at an angle.

It a bit like climing up straigtht up a moutain or walking up a moutain at a angle with a heavy load. You'll haul more weight up going up the moutain at an angle.


Benching in an arc is useful from a powerlifting standpoint to potentially lift more weight, but SS benching isn't about simply getting better at bench press. It is more about getting stronger via the bench press

The body wasn't really made to move in a straight line. I doubt that anyone really pushes the bar completely in a vertical straight line. As you noted, "it is impossible for the bar to move in a perfectly straight line..." That's why movement is broken down into human planes of motion: Sagital, Frontal and Transverse. Our movement is more like "3D".

Changing how you bench press be it bar trajectory, hand grip, bar placement on the chest, bar speed, etc will make it a different exercise and is an effective method of increasing strength.

Kenny Croxdale

[Nauticus]

Guys, Rip never said anything about benching in a perfectly vertical path.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=79050&postcount=7


I teach them that a vertical bar path -- while mechanically ideal -- is not a good idea for anatomical reasons.

[Gary Gibson]

Rip gets a bit of flack for not promoting the latest powerlifting technique.

Bar path and direction is an endless debate when it comes to the bench press. But each variation has its strengths and weaknesses. Elbows tucked protects the shoulders by taking them out of the movement and shifting the stress to the triceps. I've never used a shirt, but it's my understanding that tucking becomes easier in one because the shirt helps the bottom of the movement and takes the stress off the shoulders. It doesn't help in the lockout and that's where the triceps shine. The tighter/thicker the shirt, the more tucked the elbows can be and the touch point gets lower on the torso. Look at the style of benching used in different feds and you'll see that the more supportive the gear gets, the closer in the elbows get, the lower the touch point ("belly benching") and the bigger the weights. You don't get to bench 1000 lbs using the technique taught in Starting Strength. But if you want your shoulders to survive benching 1000--even in gear--then you'll want to keep your elbows tucked and develop supremely strong triceps to take advantage of the gear and tucked elbows technique.

A little drift toward the face and some elbow flare is natural, but flared elbows are murder on the shoulders when employed when the humeri are in extreme abduction. That's why Rip tells us to raise the chest as much as possible. We do not bench press to the neck. We touch the lower chest around the nipple line and then push the bar slightly toward our faces so that it comes to a stop directly over the shoulders. But at the bottom, the bar should NOT BE OVER YOUR SHOULDERS or clavicle area. This is the sort of mullet nonsense that wrecks shoulders very quickly.

Or you can push the bar straight up from your nipple line so that at lockout the bar is NOT directly over your shoulders and your arms are about 15 degrees off a right angle to the floor. A supportive shirt would help with less than ideal angle. This path has more in common with a decline press.

So. You can start elbows tucked and end elbows tucked (bar still over lower chest/upper abs). Or you can start elbows tucked and finished elbows flared (bar over shoulders).

Just don't start elbows flared or flare them too early.

[K.Diesel]

Benching in an arc is useful from a powerlifting standpoint to potentially lift more weight, but SS benching isn't about simply getting better at bench press. It is more about getting stronger via the bench press

I hope I didn't skip something in this discussion, but wouldn't one get stronger via the bench press by lifting more weight in the bench press?

[Alyion]

I hope I didn't skip something in this discussion, but wouldn't one get stronger via the bench press by lifting more weight in the bench press?

Well obviously yes, but rippetoe has said before he doesnt really want his trainees to simply be able to bench more - if that was the case we would be telling the op to strap on a bench shirt and have a huge briged arch.

*edit* Just saw Gary's post which pretty much sums it up