toes out on the squat

[michaelc]

Hi All,
Michael here. A new guy on the forum. I have been having a discussion with another trainer about angling the toes out when you squat. She insists that it is not necessary and I have always been taught that that is how you do it correctly. My question is: Is there a biomechanical reason for pointing the toes out? I would like to go back to this discussion armed with some concrete reasons why we do this so that I can win the argument (and help to inform her)
Thanks for any help
Michael

[Charles Staley]

When you assume a natural stance, your toes will angle out. Actually the angle is created by slight external rotation of the femurs. Virtually all competent/heavy squats are performed this way, in both powerlifting and Olympic lifting.


Hi All,
Michael here. A new guy on the forum. I have been having a discussion with another trainer about angling the toes out when you squat. She insists that it is not necessary and I have always been taught that that is how you do it correctly. My question is: Is there a biomechanical reason for pointing the toes out? I would like to go back to this discussion armed with some concrete reasons why we do this so that I can win the argument (and help to inform her)
Thanks for any help
Michael

[michaelc]

Thanks Charles

[coldfire]

Hi All,
Michael here. A new guy on the forum. I have been having a discussion with another trainer about angling the toes out when you squat. She insists that it is not necessary and I have always been taught that that is how you do it correctly. My question is: Is there a biomechanical reason for pointing the toes out? I would like to go back to this discussion armed with some concrete reasons why we do this so that I can win the argument (and help to inform her)
Thanks for any help
Michael

Search a little. It has been discussed in this forum many times.

Reading Starting Strength might help too.

[cheesedips]

personal trainers everywhere teach the squat wrong..i see at ballys daily, they teach half sq with toes almost straight..not good.toes out makes it easy to reach depth

[Smack]

Toes out. I can't imagine squatting any other way.

[Kenny Croxdale]

personal trainers everywhere teach the squat wrong..i see at ballys daily, they teach half sq with toes almost straight..not good.toes out makes it easy to reach depth

Cheesedip,

It does make it easier to reach depth with your toes pointed out. However, I never have squatted very well with my toes out.

I do much better with my toes pointed straight ahead and have even squatted well with my toes pointed in, pigeon toed.

Squatting with your toes pointed in makes it's harder to get down but easier to get up. I am not sure why the is.

Kenny Croxdale

[Sami]

Some powerlifters will squat with a very wide stance and toes pointed forward, almost parallel. This twists the knees and make it hard to get depth, however an extremely heavy weight will get the lifter down anyway. The twisted knees hold elastic energy that helps lift the weight. However, it doesn't take much thought to realise that this can't be good long term for the knees.

[TomV]

Pardon the poor explanation, this comes only from my memory early on a Sunday morning.

I remember Rip writing an article called "The Active Hip" which was available through the Crossfit Journal (not sure if he published it anywhere else). In the article he details specifically why toes out is better for hitting depth.

From memory (which is poor at the moment), when toes are out and the legs follow them in the correct position ("knees out") it allows certain landmarks on the hip and femur to stay clear of one another, allowing for better movement of the pelvis.

[BryanM]

Common sense would suggest the knee and foot should be pointing in the same direction, as otherwise you've rotated the bottom of the tibia and fibia, where they're aligned in a suboptimal way to bear weight (imagine a two by four twisted in the middle), and also the load transmitted up to the knee comes up at an unhappy angle, a "twisting force".

I don't even know how it's possible to have feet forward with a shoulder width or wider stance without exploding into a crumpled heap.

For more fun, try to convince her unweighted sit ups on the floor are completely useless. Compare them to pumping your fist in the air to get big bicepz. This always ends up well. Trust me.

[GianMilano]

I have even squatted well with my toes pointed in, pigeon toed.

That sounds excruciating. I'm literally wincing just thinking about pigeon-toed squats.

[BCS]

Pigeon toe and straight ahead feet are useful contest techniques for an ADVANCED squatter who already has very strong connective tissue. For the general population squatter, toes out allows you to reach proper depth while shoving your knees out which allows you to use the most muscle mass through the fullest range of motion. That is how you get strong.

I don't know your history of lifting Kenny, but you might squat better with toes (and I'm assuming knees) forward because your posterior chain is asleep.

[Kenny Croxdale]

Pigeon toe and straight ahead feet are useful contest techniques for an ADVANCED squatter who already has very strong connective tissue. For the general population squatter, toes out allows you to reach proper depth while shoving your knees out which allows you to use the most muscle mass through the fullest range of motion. That is how you get strong.

I don't know your history of lifting Kenny, but you might squat better with toes (and I'm assuming knees) forward because your posterior chain is asleep.

BCS,

I've been around for a long time and experimented a lot. I am an advocate of Einstein's Philosophy, "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing".

I usually squat with my toes forward, as you recommended. However, I did use (experiment with) the "Pigeon Toe" approaching to squatting at a few meets. I had one of my best squats using the "Pigeon Toe" method.

The "Pigeon Toed" (toes turned in) is one of Louis Simmons' squatting recommendations. That is where I got the idea from. (So, if anyone has a problem with "Pigeon Toed" method, go talk to Louie, not me...:)

According to Simmons, squatting "Pigeon Toed" was harder to get down and easier to get up. I found this to be true.

With a "Pigeon Toed" Squat Stance, I had to work at getting down. However, I had a lot more power coming out of the hole with the toes in method.

Simmons also recommended the "Pigeon Toe" approach do deadlifting, as well.

Kenny Croxdale

[nisora33]

BCS,

I've been around for a long time and experimented a lot. I am an advocate of Einstein's Philosophy, "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing".

I usually squat with my toes forward, as you recommended. However, I did use (experiment with) the "Pigeon Toe" approaching to squatting at a few meets. I had one of my best squats using the "Pigeon Toe" method.

The "Pigeon Toed" (toes turned in) is one of Louis Simmons' squatting recommendations. That is where I got the idea from. (So, if anyone has a problem with "Pigeon Toed" method, go talk to Louie, not me...:)

According to Simmons, squatting "Pigeon Toed" was harder to get down and easier to get up. I found this to be true.

With a "Pigeon Toed" Squat Stance, I had to work at getting down. However, I had a lot more power coming out of the hole with the toes in method.

Simmons also recommended the "Pigeon Toe" approach do deadlifting, as well.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny, last time I checked, this was the Starting Strength forum, which is run in support of Starting Strength and Rip's other works. Your efforts here are becoming distasteful.

When you start the Kenny Croxdale forums, maybe that would be the place for a more advanced discussion on some of these things, huh?

[matclone]

I'm certain Rippetoe addresses this specific question and gives specific biomechanical answers in Starting Strength. There is probably less strain on the knee, and, as mentioned by other posters, it is a more natural position, and hence would be more conducive to lifting more weight. If a toddler squats, what does s/he do? Feet parallel, or at a 30 degree angle? If you have tapes of world class weightlifters (and why wouldn't you?) cleaning (i.e. front squatting) a weight that is 2-3 times their bodyweight, and their ass is nearly to the floor, are their feet parallel or out at an angle?

http://weightlifting.teamusa.org/multimedia/photo_gallery/393?photo=6655#gallery-header (http://weightlifting.teamusa.org/multimedia/photo_gallery/393?photo=6655#gallery-header)
(Casey Burgener cleaning at least 450 pounds. Where are his feet?).

http://weightlifting.teamusa.org/multimedia/photo_gallery/73?photo=1679#gallery-header (http://weightlifting.teamusa.org/multimedia/photo_gallery/73?photo=1679#gallery-header)

[matclone]

If I'm not mistaken, Louie Simmons has his powerlifters use a very wide stance in the squat, in which case, because their feet are so wide apart, feet parallel, or even pigeon-toed might be more appropriate (stand up from your computer, take a very wide stance, and see why). But as Rip has explained, again, in Starting Strength, that is a stance unique to competitive powerlifters (he even includes a photo of one), who are also wearing wraps, and suits, and special undershorts, and it's not a stance that one would normally use in a squat unless one is a competitive powerlifter.

[coldfire]

Kenny, last time I checked, this was the Starting Strength forum, which is run in support of Starting Strength and Rip's other works. Your efforts here are becoming distasteful.

When you start the Kenny Croxdale forums, maybe that would be the place for a more advanced discussion on some of these things, huh?

I don't see the problem. Kenny speaks from his experience, you speak from yours. I don't recall Rip allowing discussion about Starting Strength related methods only.

[nisora33]

I don't see the problem. Kenny speaks from his experience, you speak from yours. I don't recall Rip allowing discussion about Starting Strength related methods only.

Coldfire, the most important thing for most trainees starting out is to get good at performing the basics with the form that permits the best use of the most muscles around the most joints and in a way that respects the mechanically sound use of those muscles and joints. Now, not all of us here are rank novices, and those of us who aren't can more readily evaluate and apply advanced/extraordinary training methods when and if the need arises, and as our level of training progression dictates.


Moreover, performing a search of all the posts submitted by Kenny reveals a contrarian tone, and he often provides recommendations in direct opposition to what is clearly and repeatedly stated by Rip in his books and in the forums, starting with a post he made regarding the pressing of the neck back into the bench on the bench press. The more he posts, the more I feel like he has some underlying agenda, even though he has stated that he is long-time friends with Rip, whatever that means.

If I've got him pegged wrong, then I apologize, and I'm sure Rip will chastize me when he gets back to the forums.

Can we at least agree that most of the rank beginners here would best be served by sticking with the program as its written, using the methods written about at length here and in Rip's books?

-S.

[coldfire]

Coldfire, the most important thing for most trainees starting out is to get good at performing the basics with the form that permits the best use of the most muscles around the most joints and in a way that respects the mechanically sound use of those muscles and joints. Now, not all of us here are rank novices, and those of us who aren't can more readily evaluate and apply advanced/extraordinary training methods when and if the need arises, and as our level of training progression dictates.


Moreover, performing a search of all the posts submitted by Kenny reveals a contrarian tone, and he often provides recommendations in direct opposition to what is clearly and repeatedly stated by Rip in his books and in the forums, starting with a post he made regarding the pressing of the neck back into the bench on the bench press. The more he posts, the more I feel like he has some underlying agenda, even though he has stated that he is long-time friends with Rip, whatever that means.

If I've got him pegged wrong, then I apologize, and I'm sure Rip will chastize me when he gets back to the forums.

Can we at least agree that most of the rank beginners here would best be served by sticking with the program as its written, using the methods written about at length here and in Rip's books?

-S.

I agree with everything you said, I just don't see the problem with Kenny's posts. You are right that beginners are best served by sticking to the books, but this is a discussion forum, and I don't think it should be limited to the books only. Maybe I'm wrong.

[knox]

I agree with everything you said, I just don't see the problem with Kenny's posts. You are right that beginners are best served by sticking to the books, but this is a discussion forum, and I don't think it should be limited to the books only. Maybe I'm wrong.

The issue with Kenny's posts is that he is providing advice to people who are following SS when he himself is unfamiliar with the material covered in the book, and this is reflected in his posts. For example, in this current thread he is telling a novice lifter that it is okay for him to squat with his toes facing in, and in a previous post he told someone that they should press their head against the bench when performing a bench press. Both of these things are contraindicated by Starting Strength due to their potential to cause injury, and Kenny's recommendation of them to novices is downright irresponsible.

[nisora33]

The issue with Kenny's posts is that he is providing advice to people who are following SS when he himself is unfamiliar with the material covered in the book, and this is reflected in his posts. For example, in this current thread he is telling a novice lifter that it is okay for him to squat with his toes facing in, and in a previous post he told someone that they should press their head against the bench when performing a bench press. Both of these things are contraindicated by Starting Strength due to their potential to cause injury, and Kenny's recommendation of them to novices is downright irresponsible.

Exactly my point. Thank you, Knox.

[coldfire]

The issue with Kenny's posts is that he is providing advice to people who are following SS when he himself is unfamiliar with the material covered in the book, and this is reflected in his posts. For example, in this current thread he is telling a novice lifter that it is okay for him to squat with his toes facing in, and in a previous post he told someone that they should press their head against the bench when performing a bench press. Both of these things are contraindicated by Starting Strength due to their potential to cause injury, and Kenny's recommendation of them to novices is downright irresponsible.

I don't see where he is telling him to squat with toes facing in. I just see a post where is said that it worked well for his squat. Anyway, everyone is responsible for himself. If someone tells you to squat on a fitball, you wouldn't do it, would you?

[milesdyson]

saying he had one of his best squats with toes in counts for something. he also says he currently squats with his feet pointed forward. i don't know about the other example on the boards that nisora's talking about, but that's pretty bad imo.

[confuzzl3don3]

Not trying to play the devil's advocate or anything, but if i remember correctly, Ripp mentioned that if you are naturally pigeon-toed than squatting pigeon-toed would be the best and most comfortable for that individual. This only applies to people who are pigeon-toed, kind of like how people with short arms and long femurs benefit better from flat soled shoes as opposed to those with a heel as stated in a pretty recent thread in Ripp's FAQ. But I guess the thing is that Kenny often speaks from his own experience and it can sometimes be misleading to novices. I am not saying his advice his wrong or bad, i guess just individualised at times.

[tescott]

Not trying to play the devil's advocate or anything, but if i remember correctly, Ripp mentioned that if you are naturally pigeon-toed than squatting pigeon-toed would be the best and most comfortable for that individual.

if Rip actually said that, I'll eat my own head.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

if Rip actually said that, I'll eat my own head.

He didn't said that verbatim, but he did say something along similar lines:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=7160&highlight=pigeon

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=7166&highlight=pigeon


I'll let you decide whether that's enough to behead yourself :-)

IPB

[Gwynn]

What is important is how the foot lines up with the angle of the femur. It's better to squat with some external rotation at the hip, because your hip flexor tendons usually hit the ASIS when you're completely parallel. This produces lumbar flexion. If you external rotate and thereby get some more room at the front of the hip, you can more easily maintain the appropriate degree of lumbar extension.

The foot should be lined up with the femur, but in some cases the person has some tibial torsion (duck footed) or is pigeon toed (don't know any fancy terms for that) which will mean they will not be able to comfortably follow the angle of the femur with the angle of the foot. So for instance if you are pigeon toed, you could have the degree of external rotation at the hip that Rip calls for, but if you only look at your feet on the floor they will look parallel.

[scotts]

The issue with Kenny's posts is that...

...we don't know how strong he is. If a guy is talking about pigeon-toed squats, the weight on the bar is not insignificant. If he says you absolutely SHOULD push your head back while benching, the weight under which he is doing this is not irrelevant. I've never seen Croxdale asking any questions, but he's answering quite a few, so I assume he's a strong dude. If he ain't, then that wqould put his post into better context for me.

[Smack]

There is a time and place for everything and the type of squat which Louie Simmons recommends is not optimal for a brand newbie, i.e. the type of people Rip does such a grand job of helping. I don't think Rippetoe would ever profess to know more about training people to put up huge totals than Louie, but lets be realistic here: the type of squat Louie recommends is not how a rank newbie in nothing but his gym shorts should be squatting. As I said, there is a time and place for everything, and if one chooses the multi-ply route then Louie Simmons would probably be a very good role model.

I also think there is a rather large issue on the internet with multi-ply geared lifting advice getting passed down to raw guys. But then that's just me, maybe I'm biased against such advice after it never worked too well for me.

[michaelc]

Thanks for all the help. I have read starting strength and the active hip article but if memory serves (as it sometimes does) the instruction was point your toes slightly out but that was it. There was no real reason given although I am inclined to just do what Rip says and leave it at that.
Thanks again
Michael C.

[Gary Gibson]

There is a time and place for everything and the type of squat which Louie Simmons recommends is not optimal for a brand newbie, i.e. the type of people Rip does such a grand job of helping. I don't think Rippetoe would ever profess to know more about training people to put up huge totals than Louie, but lets be realistic here: the type of squat Louie recommends is not how a rank newbie in nothing but his gym shorts should be squatting. As I said, there is a time and place for everything, and if one chooses the multi-ply route then Louie Simmons would probably be a very good role model.

I also think there is a rather large issue on the internet with multi-ply geared lifting advice getting passed down to raw guys. But then that's just me, maybe I'm biased against such advice after it never worked too well for me.

Amen.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

I really complicated a small knee injury by pretending that Louie was talking to me and my 245-lb squat in his articles.

I'd been box squatting--a move best suited to mimicking the stop experienced in canvas or to building the sumo deadlift without taxing the grip--with religious fervor. I was pointing toes straight ahead and disaster eventually struck. Knee caved in suddenly one day and I believe the medial plica got pinched. I'm now convinced that I was already causing a bit of derangement in both knees with the insane torque produced by squatting with my tibias twisted in relation to my femur.

The pinching resulted in the effusion that I would end up fighting WITHOUT expert assistance for the next two years. The effusion caused horrible inhibition that resulted in atrophy. It took several months of repeated daily draining to get it to slow down (and now it seems to have stopped...mostly) and several months to rehab the wasted leg and get my squat moving again.

Louie's stuff is for very strong people, people strong enough to get a lot out of the tightest, most supportive equipment and who need to get creative and smart about shoring up weaknesses that the highest level of equipment reveals.

You'll see a bunch of articles claiming that novices and intermediates can do some "Westside variation" and benefit greatly, in ways that they couldn't with simple progression or periodization.

Bullshit.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

Novices benefit most from the bread and butter lifts and linear progression and lots of food. Intermediates need more volume and some periodization. It will be a while before "Westside variations" give most of us anything that basic progression and basic periodization won't.

Toes straight ahead is one of those advanced techniques for a specific type of squatting. It presupposes great strength and resilience have already been built and it exploits a means of building tension that has a high likelihood of knee derangement without the aforementioned strength and resilience.

If you're pigeon-toed, then your "toes out" will look different from my "toes out." This has been covered in SS. But telling people to try to toe-in (to emulate Westsiders or other advanced lifters in the most supportive of gear) deliberately is a little irresponsible.

[nisora33]

Amen.

The effusion caused horrible inhibition that resulted in atrophy. It took several months of repeated daily draining to get it to slow down (and now it seems to have stopped...mostly) and several months to rehab the wasted leg and get my squat moving again.


Jesus Christ, Gary! How exactly did you drain it? You're a tough, dedicated sonofabitch, I'll say that.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

Most of the story is in my log.

Basically numerous visits to numerous specialists got me a grand total of two aspirations. The fluid came back. My range of motion got cut in half because the fluid wouldn't allow full flexion and my all the muscles in my right leg shrank.

I boned up on knee anatomy and aspiration procedures (God bless you, Google search function), ordered the appropriate materiel and went to work. It took several months of multiple aspirations every day. But eventually I got the effusion under control. I kept training and the muscle tone and size came back and so did the strength.

[matclone]

I have read starting strength and the active hip article but if memory serves (as it sometimes does) the instruction was point your toes slightly out but that was it. There was no real reason given although I am inclined to just do what Rip says and leave it at that.
Thanks again
Michael C.

Take a look at pps. 42, and 48-49 of the 2nd Ed. of Starting Strength.

[Kenny Croxdale]

...telling people to try to toe-in (to emulate Westsiders or other advanced lifters in the most supportive of gear) deliberately is a little irresponsible.

Gary,

There is no direct remommendation posted on this board advocating toes in when squatting. You read more in than was there.

In discussing the differences of toe position and how it effect the squat, I replied to BCS the difference of squatting toes in.

Toes in (as Simmons noted) being that it was harder to get down and but easier to come up. As Coldfire noted in his post, I simply stated it worked for my squat and the I currently squat with toes forward.

Kenny Croxdale