aches and pains??

[murrie]

Hi all,

Newbie here. I'm an older chick (45)-been lifting for years but started doing SS about 3 months ago-making great progress. Love this style of training. One thing-I am developing so many aches and pains especially in my knees. Is this common? Any suggestions? Am reading SS and Practical Programming. There are some days I just hurt all over. I guess it is just part of the aging process?

[coldfire]

Sounds more like form issues to me. Try taking a video of your squats.

[Mr.City]

It could be improper depth, knees caving in on the way up, knees coming forward and weight shifting to the toes. Since you're a masters lifter, I'm curious to the amount of time you spent warming up. I want to suggest knee sleeves to keep warmth in your knees joints, but considering your knees are uninjured, I don't think they would be neccessary.

Also, a video would shine much light on what could be the problem.

[nisora33]

There are so many factors to consider here that any suggestions we could make would just be wild speculation.

Videos of you lifting are the first order of business, along with some stats. Then, we'd have to look at whether you're sleeping enough/getting quality sleep, is your diet dialed in, and after all of that, maybe then consider whether age is an issue (meaning recovery takes longer for you and that a 2-day-a-week program might work better)? But again, without the answers to any of these questions, no one can really say.

Even given that you're doing everything exactly as you should be, some aches and pains will accompany rigorous training.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

It could be improper depth, knees caving in on the way up, knees coming forward and weight shifting to the toes. Since you're a masters lifter, I'm curious to the amount of time you spent warming up. I want to suggest knee sleeves to keep warmth in your knees joints, but considering your knees are uninjured, I don't think they would be neccessary.

Also, a video would shine much light on what could be the problem.

Knee sleeves ARE NOT just for the injured. I personally think everybody should be wearing them. All supportive gear started out as a way to prevent injury and excessive wear and tear, particularly the first bench shirts and even knee wraps. Knee sleeves, compression shorts and even an old, relatively loose bench shirt are great training aids which make up for any pounds added to the lift (less than 10) for the protective, supportive benefits they give.

A brand new pair of knee sleeves may give you 5 lbs on your squat. But their main function is keeping the ligaments warm and giving them a little compression. Ligaments generally don't have much of a blood supply which is a big part of the reason they don't heal too well; it's also why they don't get as warm and supple as would be ideal just from "warming up." Knee sleeves get them warm and a warm ligament is a happy ligament. The slight compression provides some proprioceptive feedback and also helps them perform better.

Neoprene compression shorts and any sort of bench shirt are not allowed in USAPL raw, but I currently train in my compression shorts along with the neoprene sleeves which ARE allowed. I'll be adding a light, loose old bench shirt at some point for high volume bench work.

Now that I've said all that, allow me to say that there could be a form issue at work. Video would be great.

[matclone]

Hi all,

Newbie here. I'm an older chick (45)-been lifting for years but started doing SS about 3 months ago-making great progress. Love this style of training. One thing-I am developing so many aches and pains especially in my knees. Is this common?

Unfortunately aches and pains come with the territory. If you're new to lifting heavier weights (you don't say), or to squats, it's possible your body has not had time to fully adjust to the new stress you're applying to it (give it time), or you may simply be doing too much--something you'll have to figure out on your own. Rippetoe wrote a chapter or two regarding special considerations with older lifters and women in Strong Enough? and one of these may still be on one of his websites.

As mentioned, the knee pain may also be an issue of form or warmup. Also, are you wearing good shoes? Finally, I'll just mention one other thing from my experience in case it's useful to you. When I was doing Olympic training (in my late 30s) I used to do a lot of pulls, and at some point my traps were getting so sore that it was interfering with my workouts and my desire to lift. One day I took Ibuprofen (2 x 200)--something I'd never really used before--prior to working out, and to my surprise, it completely solved the problem.

[misspelledgeoff]

all of the below and this too...I'm 39 and have been doing this since August. At this stage, not a day goes by where I don't hurt somewhere. Sometimes it's workout soreness, sometimes a mild injury, sometimes an annoying ache, oftentimes all of the above.

For the most part, I just train through it. Lots of Ibuprofen helps on the really bad days. Omega 3 fishoil supposedly has anti-inflammatory properties, so I take that on a daily basis too--don't know if i can tell a difference. Tiger-balm works wonders.

with all that said, the line between training through your aches and overtraining/injury can be a fine one. Especially for those of us not lucky enough to still be in our 20's. So listen to your body and take a day off if your body says you need it.

[nisora33]

I think we need to hear from Ms. Murrie.

[Webbie]

Knee sleeves ARE NOT just for the injured. I personally think everybody should be wearing them.

I agree. I just added some neoprene sleeves and the added warmth has been great. I wear sweat pants and I actually get sweat stains on my shins ...how's that for warm ligaments?! I bought them because I had some slight soreness from some form issues earlier in Sept/Oct...now the pain is gone but the sleeves are staying. Especially during winter time as I work out in the garage. After my workout, when I take them off I feel like I have brand new knees.

[TomC]

Talk to us about your recovery techniques, specifically things like stretching, icing, and myosfascial release (on foam rollers and lacrosse balls and such). If your squat technique is good, it is still possible to get sore knees. This is especially true if you have excessively tight hamstrings, quads, or calves. All these muscles are pulling on your knee. Look upstream and downstream at problematic muscle groups and be prepared to work on them from a recovery standpoint.

As matclone mentioned, connective tissues sometimes fail to keep up with the increased loading. Since you are in your 40s, you will not recover as quickly as you once could and you may need extra rest and more dilligent recovery.

Don't forget to warm up properly. I do a lot more warmup than Rip recommends (I'm 32). I quite literally do 10 to 15 minutes of specific warmup drills before I even get under the empty bar. I am usually sweating a bit before I do my first squat. Here's what my warm up sets looked like yesterday:

4 sets x 5 reps x 45 lbs
2 x 5 x 95

1 set for the following reps and weights:
4 x 135
3 x 185
2 x 225
1 x 260

3 x 5 x 300 lbs for work sets

Squatting takes me a long time, but I found this is what I need to do to keep my knees and hips from bothering me. Look up Kelly Starrett's videos and writings on stretching and recovery. It's really important for those of us that are not 16.

[Bahadur]

Squatting takes me a long time, but I found this is what I need to do to keep my knees and hips from bothering me. Look up Kelly Starrett's videos and writings on stretching and recovery. It's really important for those of us that are not 16.

Do you have a link for Starrett's flexibility/stretching writings? Are these the ones in the CrossFit Journal, or are there free writings in the public domain? I don't have a subscription to the Journal....

[murrie]

Hi all,

You guys are just the best. So many replies!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to respond.

I'm 45. I have been bodybuilding since 1994. Have trained with many experienced BB in my time. Have done 9 shows. Am a nattie. I went in to this sport with chondromalacia of the patella-esp on the right one. Have had 2 scopes done on the right one. Never would do free weight squats in all these years cuz I was too afraid of what my knees would do. Compensated by doing squats on the smith(ick.) and wearing out the hack machine and leg press. Have done about every split routine variation known in the bodybuilding world except for SS. Man I wish I had known about this type of training 10 years ago. My one rep maxes have been "stuck" for years. After this last competition this past summer I quite literally got pissed off. Pissed that I couldn't do real squats like the big boys (ATG) and couldn't do one pullup, can't bench my own body weight yadayadayada. Pissed me off to the point where I have put "bodybuilding" training on the back burner until I can at least bench my bodyweight and free weight squat my bodyweight and be able to do some @#$% pullups. Well, my knees are PO'ed now too. Am working through a lot of the discomfort. Warm ups have become a 20 minute thing. Major "ramping up" in my workouts. But my knees hurt if I don't workout and they hurt if I do so what the??? I can't quit. I plan on trying the sleeve idea-wonderful idea. Am taking it a workout a time. Started completely over doing free wt squats last August-just using a bar. Got up to within 10 lbs of my body weight in October. Have backed down somewhat. Am squatting 3x week-texas type method, one volume 5x5, one lighter (80%) and one ramped up for heavy weight. Will try and post a vid soon. You guys are the best!!!! Thanks so much for all the responses!!!

[misspelledgeoff]

make sure you aren't letting your knees slide forward at the bottom of the squat.

[TomC]

Do you have a link for Starrett's flexibility/stretching writings? Are these the ones in the CrossFit Journal, or are there free writings in the public domain? I don't have a subscription to the Journal....

I can't post all of the links, but here is some stuff to get you started. Go to:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

And use your browswer's "Search" or "Find" text tool and look for "Starrett." There are a number of videos where he discusses midline stability, some of which apply to the hamstring and knee. This video is called "The Knee, Part III"

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitJournal_Starrett_TheKneesThree_Pre.wmv

Also keep an eye out for his video on PNF stretching:

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitJournal_KellyPNFDemoPre.wmv

Also, this Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=8dk&q=stretching+site%3Asanfranciscocrossfit.blogspot. com&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) will provide a wealth of articles that Kelly has written.

I am lucky enough to live in Oakland and have had the privilege to train with Kelly on a few occasions. He's an amazing coach and a first rate physical therapist, not to mention a really good dude.

[Gary Gibson]

Murrie,

Congrats for getting strong.

Everything everyone said about form.

But I have a rather severe knee problem myself and nothing has helped me like neoprene knee sleeves. I loved them so much that I got neoprene training pants as well. I won't squat anything near heavy without proper footwear and without neoprene on my knees and around my hips. If you get them, I promise you that you will kick yourself for not doing it earlier.

The body wasn't made to have the industrial artifact known as a loaded barbell placed on the posterior deltoids followed by a descent into a squat several times per day, several days per week. Such behavior makes the body ungodly strong, but it could use a little help to survive this unnatural habit. Neoprene and ibuprofen should be handed out along with a copy of Starting Strength with each barbell and power rack sold.

Make sure your form is good, but remember that knee sleeves love you and want you to squat without pain.

[milesdyson]

I have had tendonitis in my left knee both above the knee (quad tendon) and below the patella. I'll be getting some neoprene knee sleeves soon. I'll report back in time to share my experience.