Robb Wolf Dave Castro stuff

[alongsummer1]

Rip-
What are your thoughts about the drama going on at crossfit?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Well, we're not associated with CrossFit anymore and our seminar in Wichita Falls on the 12th-13th of December will be our last formal interaction with the organization, to fulfill our obligations to the people who signed up for the seminar. We ended our business relationship with CrossFit September 16th.

It's been brought to my attention by several people that CrossFit.com is not fostering an open discussion of these matters. I'm going to refrain from any personal comments, but if you guys want to talk about it here, get busy.

This thread will be moderated for excessive craziness.

[stronger]

Any details on this? I haven't heard about it.

Does it have to do with "The Black Box Summit Or How I Got Fired from the CrossFit Nutrition Certification" post towards the middle of the page? http://robbwolf.com/

[Smiler Grogan]

See IGX for a comprehensive history of crossfit drama from around 2006 to this minute. HIGHLY entertaining stuff.

[pbjorge12]

See IGX for a comprehensive history of crossfit drama from around 2006 to this minute. HIGHLY entertaining stuff.

Could you point me to links of some of the juicier stuff perhaps?
I went to IGX but everything seems pretty fucking disorganized...

[Bloodninja666]

Ive seen enough of this organization to conclude that its leadership figures are in well over their heads. They may have started out with a creative idea, but lack of business sense and professionalism will be the limiting factor in Crossfit's growth.

Glassman was lucky enough to introduce a good product at a time when the market was ready for it. After this period of organic growth, Crossfit is primed to explode into the mainstream. Companies that successfully accomplish this transition almost always share a few common traits... and I do not see any of these in Crossfit's management. They do not have their brand squared away, do not have a close eye on their market as the demands of that market have continued to evolve, do not have leadership in place that is capable fostering talent and growth of people and ideas within the organization. Dictatorial family businesses shoot themselves in the foot in this manner all the time...

In the world I come from, no investor in their right mind would put any capital into Crossfit while allowing Glassman and Co have any operational control of the company.

This Robb Wolf stunt may actually be CF's high water mark, as the quality affiliates and consultants capable of absorbing the best ideas splinter off.

[pbjorge12]

Apparently Robb Wolf has been replaced by Barry Sears for the nutrition certs (at least temporarily)...

[nisora33]

From the Irongarmx forum (the infamous "couch thread"):


"An attorney weighs in on the confrontation and liability on the part of @FHQ...it's not looking pretty.

http://robbwolf.com/?p=976#comments
Quote:
Dave
Posted November 27, 2009 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

'Latham:

I first want to disclose that I don’t know you. I also don’t know Greg, though I met him once a number of years ago. I do know Robb, to an extent, as I work out at his gym, (which is why I am here).

As a practicing civil and corporate attorney, I generally find that such an “incident” as described by the various participants and witnesses, generally falls into the position of, “everyone was at fault to a degree”. However, your postings on this issue simply shock me. I can only deduct that you are not a licensed Attorney and have no concept concerning corporate requirements for avoiding hostile work environments and workplace violence. Your statement that, “Dave’s behavior is not relevant here”, is not only wholly unsupported by both case and statutory law, but also could be viewed as an admission that CF Inc., does not believe it has an affirmative duty to avoid workplace violence.

As the 2nd man at HQ, Dave represents the Business Entity of CF Inc. As such, both California Corporate and Civil law impose certain responsibilities upon him when he is acting on behalf of the corporation, (and given that Dave was here in California representing CF Inc., California law would apply). (YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS)

One of these responsibilities is to enforce a Non-Violent and Non-Hostile work environment. You concede that Dave had a ‘tantrum’. You concede that he, “probably heard what he wanted to hear”. You concede that he used demeaning and offensive language, (fat fuck). You concede that he initiated the ‘heated confrontation’ by using the above referenced language. Any one of these items could make the Corporation as a whole, each individual officer, and each individual director PERSONALLY liable for both civil as well as punitive damages, IF this situation is not handled correctly. Taken together, (if you speak on behalf of CF Inc., or if your written admissions were to be found by a court to represent the general knowledge of the officers and directors of the corporation), you have admitted that you KNOW that you have a ’supervisor’ employee that is creating a hostile and potentially violent work environment.

Please note that Greg has indicated that Dave physically assaulted him by employing a ‘control maneuver’ to his neck. There are apparently at least 2 witnesses that also saw this assault. Again, I don’t know Dave, but if his military background really does include being trained as a SEAL, (and CF Inc. knows this), then this loss of control you admit, combined with the deadliness of his training, SHOULD give EVERYONE concern about how much damage he could do to someone. So obviously, both Greg’s and Robb’s actions and purported statements would HAVE to be reviewed under such a light. Which makes Dave’s actions not only relevant, but highly probative. This fact alone WOULD be used by an attorney to prove HOW grave the threat Greg and Robb felt, (and the increased duty for CF Inc. to do something to make sure that Dave could never do such again.

Any corporate counsel worth their pay, hearing even one bit of what you have admitted, would have instructed you and everyone else at CF Inc. to keep your bloody mouths shut and hire outside counsel to do a complete and thorough investigation. So either you guys don’t have effective legal counsel, or you are not listening to them. At a minimum, California case law, (and based on the Act to Prevent Workplace Violence), Federal law REQUIRES, CF Inc. to have an independent 3rd party investigation of this incident, (typically an independent law firm specializing in such investigations). CF Inc. should also suspend Dave pending the outcome of this investigation. Failure to follow all of these steps could lead to CF Inc, its officers and directors, becoming personally liable for Dave’s actions, (because they did not use reasonable prudence to investigate the incident and protect their workers and business associates from such violence in the work place).

As to your laments about Robb not ’supporting’ CF programs, diets, etc., one wonders HOW a well run corporation could embark on a diet plan that IS NOT fully supported by the very expert they refer to as their “Nutrician Guru”. If Robb is telling Corp. that there is a better way, or that an unweighed Paleo Plan has some advantages, why is Corporate not listening and promoting such information? Typically, there are only 3 basis to support such Corporate governance. First, is that the Corporation has an invested interest in promoting a particular “product”. Such as maybe the owners, officers, directors, or even the corporation itself, may have an investment in the Zone Diet, such that there is a financial benefit from such cross-promotion. Second, that the decision to support the “product” was made at some point in the past, and the Corp. is reluctant to change their position simply because it costs more and takes longer to “change or adjust” such messages. Third, the corporation has other independent information/evidence that makes them believe their inside expert is not correct.

Your posting expressly states that Robb’s nutritional insight and advice may be right, (”probably is true”). You try to downplay the problem of Corp HQ pushing the Zone even if it is not the best choice, by specifically highlighting the fact that each gym and owner, is free to advise their clients as they see fit. No where do you indicate that you have outside information that contradicts Robb’s recommendations. So there does not appear to be any basis that the Third explanation fits. Rather, you simply focus on CF Inc., wanting to promote the Zone Diet, and Corporate HQ not liking the fact that Robb was recommending a variant. Again, corporate counsel should be screaming at you. IF CF Inc. is primarily dedicated to its athletes, and improving their health, performance and lives, then it MUST always strive to promote the best nutritional and exercise information and instruction available. Rather, your statements seem to clearly indicate that this is simply a CONTROL issue, where Corporate HQ wants to DEMAND that their “Nutritional Guru” tells people what Corporate HQ wants them to hear, (even when you admit Robb’s advice is probably better than the corporate message).

I don’t know what leverage or position you may hold in CF Inc., Latham, but CF has grown because people are seeing results. I ignored Robb’s nutritional advice for 2 years. CF still improved my performance and allowed me to lose some weight, but it was not until I started following his nutritional advice a year ago, that my life really changed. THAT is what people are seeing. THAT is why a number of my friends and business associates have joined CF. When CF Inc., starts to care more about controlling its BRAND, than the success of its MEMBERS, that is when CF Inc., will start its long and slow decent that has captured most of your competition. And sadly, that is what your posts clearly seem to be indicating.'

Much more here:

http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=435246#p435246

[nisora33]

And here are Robb and Greg's accounts of the events, respectively:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=976

http://performancemenu.com/wod/index.php?show=wod&dailyID=1016

You should all be proud of Uncle Rip for splitting from CrossFit.

[DeepBlue]

Let's hope Rip and Robb do some talking and some joined up thinking.

I love the quotations from Russell Berger:
"At the end of day one, the CrossFit Central staff put us through a fun, short workout. Thiel and Kepler moved through their staff, motivating and coaching CrossFitters. The rest of the Summit staff retreated to their own separate strength workout, ironically right after the emphasis on quality training."

and:
"At the end of our second day, we all did a team workout consisting of pull-ups, deadlifts, wall-ball shots, and 800m sprints. While The CrossFit Central Staff worked to make the event happen, and Thiel supervised, the rest of the Seminar staff again retreated to a corner of the gym where they did their own strength workout. They didn’t coach or interact with any of us."


Yep. After the emphasis on quality training, given by some highly experienced CROSS FIT affiliates, these 'staff' (probably not, just paid/unpaid presenters) went and did a STRENGTH workout, leaving the other attendees to follow a CF workout. Yup, sounds good to me.

"They didn't coach or interact with any of us." Yup. Unless you asked them to, it's not their job, or in their interest too. Sorry, but if I was paying for a coach, and Rip walked over and started coaching me, I'd be very happy, but I'd also consider it quite unprofessional. You don't 'muscle in' on someone else's session and Thiel & Kepler were running the session.

Man, this Russell is a funny guy. CrossFit just lost serious respect from me today (not that I was holding its stock very highly).

[Smiler Grogan]

pbjorge12, you can start here for the current Black Box douchebaggery: http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5075&start=11200
If you're ever looking for some irreverent entertainment though, the entire thread is fucking priceless. It becomes crystal clear that just about EVERY quality contributor to "the community" eventually gets driven away by the OTVIII's and their arrogance.
I can't believe I ever got suckered into that shit.

[strengthstarter]

If you're ever looking for some irreverent entertainment though, the entire thread is fucking priceless. It becomes crystal clear that just about EVERY quality contributor to "the community" eventually gets driven away by the OTVIII's and their arrogance.

An interesting thread, the parts that I read. However, the misogyny gets a bit tiring, as do the personal attacks. Those people seem mostly bent on destroying CF in any form. I wonder who pissed in their Cheerios.

I've just recently decided to take a "break" from a pure strength program and doing CrossFit Football for a while to see how it goes. That with a Zone diet with a Paleo bent (mostly I think this will work for me because it forces me away from eating the convenient/easy shit out there that is terrible for me, and because it keeps me aware of what and how much I am eating. I'll worry about all the pseudoscience of it later.) I'm hoping all together it will help me improve my endurance, maintain my strength, and hopefully drop some bodyfat. If things go well, I can reevaluate in 6 months. It is funny, but my path to CrossFit was through Rip's book, pointed out by a friend who discovered Rip's book and strength training through a former competitive O-lifter turned CrossFitter.

After basically ignoring my fitness level for a long time and generally procrastinating and making excuses for myself, I realized that my fitness goals are (or should be) pretty much aligned with the CrossFit model at this time. I just want to be generally in shape and athletic. Well-rounded. Once I get there, I figure I can focus on one thing or another, to keep me motivated and keep it fun. Anyways, all of this gives me something to think about regarding how much to trust the central CF resources. It is too bad, because I like the general concept of it, and enjoyed what seemed to be a stripping down of all the "Globo Gym" BS out there and an attempt to help people really get in good shape.

Maybe I am overreacting, but I am kind of hoping that some sort of CrossFit alternative pops up. One that is less culty and more open regarding what to do and why I should be doing it.

People crap on the Crossfit HQ business model. But honestly, it kind of makes sense to me. If there were a "product" associated with such an alternative, I would think it would be a knowledge repository, such as a collection of books, like Rip's, which can stand on their own outside of the program, and a certification/education that promotes the spread of knowlege to local gyms that want to try to be better. I don't need a strong branding of anything. In fact, I would kind of prefer to avoid it.

Meh, anyways. All of this is kind of depressing. The good news is that for now I can just keep on doing what I am doing and ignore it without much of any impact on my life, as long as there remain gyms in the area where I can still work out, and some knowledgeable people to listen to and help out along the way.

As much as I would really like Rip to weigh in on all of this for my own selfish reasons (I'd like to know how much I can trust these people), I respect him staying neutral while allowing this thread to exist. Maybe some people can chime in and help me understand if and how all of this internal strife at CrossFit is relevant to the training information we get, because I honestly don't care about the asshattery aspect of it at all.

[GVA-66]

You should all be proud of Uncle Rip for splitting from CrossFit.


Shortly after I affiliated I realized I fucked up. One of the things I couldn't reconcile is Rip's involvement. He seemed to have too much integrity from the bit I gleaned at his cert and from his writing. When I heard of the split the world made a little more sense to me again.

[pbjorge12]

An interesting thread, the parts that I read. However, the misogyny gets a bit tiring, as do the personal attacks. Those people seem mostly bent on destroying CF in any form. I wonder who pissed in their Cheerios.

Perhaps I'm coming at this from completely the wrong angle, but IGX to me seems just like a typical troll board. A bunch of dudes just fucking about for the fun of it. I think their simply pointing out the absurdity of some of crossfit with some absurdity of their own...

[Smiler Grogan]

Of course, they're just illustrating absurdity by being absurd. But some of them were CF regulars and have a legit founding for their hate, due to the way they were treated by HQ/moderators/Glassman himself.
If you go far enough back in that thread (like 2006) and find the screenshots it will make more sense.
I guess I should have made it more clear that it's not an intellectual discussion going on there, more just good old fashioned hate. Doesn't make it any less true though.

[nisora33]

.

Maybe some people can chime in and help me understand if and how all of this internal strife at CrossFit is relevant to the training information we get, because I honestly don't care about the asshattery aspect of it at all.

For those of us logical and discerning enough to separate the B.S. from the quality information coming out of Crossfit, it isn't a big deal. If you're the type who doesn't critically analyze what you're being fed, then you're in trouble. One of Robb's clients who's an attorney pointed out that CrossFit is being irresponsible if it ignores or refuses to get behind folks like Robb when they discover a better way to accomplish something (weight loss, for example) based on new data that they've gathered. Robb suggested tweaking the Zone diet, I believe, at the Black Box summit, and he was called a heretic, basically. Rip's observation that CrossFitters should first get much stronger comes to mind also (nevermind the utterly shitty CrossFit Strength Bias program).

Again, if you implicitly trust HQ to promote the best of what's out there, but they're not doing it, you're allowing yourself to be lead astray. Maybe this is not a problem for you. But even if you're relatively smart this way, you're still only ONE person, with limited time and resources on your hands, and at some point and at a certain level you're going to have to take someone's word, otherwise you're never going to get started doing whatever (getting stronger, losing weight, bettering your GPP). I guess what I'm saying is, choose your mentors wisely. Don't be a "sheep" necessarily, but be careful whom you follow.

-Stacey

[JLascek]

Perhaps I'm coming at this from completely the wrong angle, but IGX to me seems just like a typical troll board. A bunch of dudes just fucking about for the fun of it. I think their simply pointing out the absurdity of some of crossfit with some absurdity of their own...

Hate? Yes. Trolling? How can you troll your own board? Oh, and sometimes the truth is absurd.

[coldfire]

For those of us logical and discerning enough to separate the B.S. from the quality information coming out of Crossfit, it isn't a big deal. If you're the type who doesn't critically analyze what you're being fed, then you're in trouble. One of Robb's clients who's an attorney pointed out that CrossFit is being irresponsible if it ignores or refuses to get behind folks like Robb when they discover a better way to accomplish something (weight loss, for example) based on new data that they've gathered. Robb suggested tweaking the Zone diet, I believe, at the Black Box summit, and he was called a heretic, basically. Rip's observation that CrossFitters should first get much stronger comes to mind also (nevermind the utterly shitty CrossFit Strength Bias program).

Again, if you implicitly trust HQ to promote the best of what's out there, but they're not doing it, you're allowing yourself to be lead astray. Maybe this is not a problem for you. But even if you're relatively smart this way, you're still only ONE person, with limited time and resources on your hands, and at some point and at a certain level you're going to have to take someone's word, otherwise you're never going to get started doing whatever (getting stronger, losing weight, bettering your GPP). I guess what I'm saying is, choose your mentors wisely. Don't be a "sheep" necessarily, but be careful whom you follow.

-Stacey

Good post, Stacey.

[strengthstarter]

Again, if you implicitly trust HQ to promote the best of what's out there, but they're not doing it, you're allowing yourself to be lead astray. Maybe this is not a problem for you. But even if you're relatively smart this way, you're still only ONE person, with limited time and resources on your hands, and at some point and at a certain level you're going to have to take someone's word, otherwise you're never going to get started doing whatever (getting stronger, losing weight, bettering your GPP). I guess what I'm saying is, choose your mentors wisely. Don't be a "sheep" necessarily, but be careful whom you follow.
Yep, in a nutshell, that's the rub, and why I even care about the drama. Implicit trust. What Robb pointed out in one of his posts struck a nerve. He basically said that all of this shit--everything--is pseudoscience: periodization, nutrition, and fitness theories in general. People mostly know what has worked for them, trainers know what has worked for others, and theories about what to do are made. Attempts to test these theories with controlled experiments usually have conclusions with a very limited applicability to what occurs in the gym.

So here most of us are, basically schmoes just looking for a good workout, and basically have to trust people at their word, whether it is Rip, Lyle, John, whoever, after bouncing it off the only weapons we have against nonsense--A questioning attitude, looking for internal consistency in the claims, basic common sense. (And a fanatical devotion to the Pope) Given the conditions, it really is no surprise people get religious/cultish about these things.

After kicking my own ass with today's CrossFit Football WOD, and remembering Rip's advice about Novice lifters--that basically they are almost impossible to overtrain--I think for now the workout will be effective. We'll see how things go.

[pbjorge12]

Hate? Yes. Trolling? How can you troll your own board? Oh, and sometimes the truth is absurd.

I was using the New York Times definition of the word.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html?_r=1

IGX just seems like a board that welcomes trolling (inflammatory posting). Which is fine by me. The subjective, hateful posts on IGX definitely ring more truthful than anything CF HQ will ever put out.

eh... it's just semantics.

[George Noble]

Here is an interesting thing. The SMEs they are alienating will need to be replaced, and indeed this is happening. Wolf is being replaced by Sears, which is OK, and Everett doesn't need replacing so much because they have Burg. Rip has pretty much been replaced by Dave Tate and if I remember correctly, Louie Simmons who is presenting a "CrossFit Powerlifting" seminar. This is where things get interesting, because Simmons and Tate are not exactly well known for taking shit from people like Castro. From what the rumours are saying, Castro is basically out of control and the two mentioned coaches are hardly likely to toe the CrossFit line. Castro's military history doesn't matter at this point - if he pulls the same shit with Louie we might see our first CrossFit induced death. Or if Wendler is involved maybe the first CrossFit induced teabagging. The element of surprise is what makes this fun to watch.

[pbjorge12]

I would love to see Dave Tate (better yet, Louie) kick Castro's ass.

[BCS]

I think I'd pay all my money to see Wendler v Castro.

[George Noble]

And didn't Glassman call Jack Reape "morbidly obese" over the internet? Of course I am not saying he would pluck up the courage to say something like that to an elite lifter in person (Castro might), but even so it's not the kind of thing that will endear you to world class powerlifters as a group. I don't know how prevalent this attitude is in HQ but I'm sure Castro will find something to fuck up.

Needless to say I will be watching The Couch Thread like a hawk, lest I miss it :)

[stronger]

How do the guys in the thread know various crossfit celebrities so well? They've got an encyclopaedic knowledge of various events.

some of the names they call are rather creative

[msingh]

What sort of annual revenue are crossfit (HQ) collecting?

[TomC]

The Irongarm thread has its moments, but they really dive deeply into uncool territory. They make fun of Glassman's limp and they write all kinds of awful stuff about several CrossFit women like Nicole Carroll for no good reason. That's really fucking classy. It's one thing if you don't like CrossFit or Greg Glassman, but ragging on him for his disability is truly fucking low. While I've only met Nicole in passing, from what I understand she's a genuinely nice person and wholly undeserving of the kinds of things that get said about her on that board. Those dudes would never have the balls to say something like that to anyone in person.

I think the CrossFit organization is making a mistake by trying to cut off any discussion of what happened. They quickly lock threads on their message board and have not addressed the issue yet in a public way. Meanwhile Greg and Robb have provided written accounts of what happened. Their recounting of the events have been corroborated by others who were there and it seems like the facts are not really in dispute. It makes CFHQ look pretty damn bad.

CFHQ is missing an opportunity to set this right. If they are in the wrong, I think it would be pretty impressive if they issued an apology for going to the Black Box seminar and essentially stirring up shit and behaving poorly. By doing some introspection and perhaps admitting that they fucked up, I would bet that things could be patched up for the good of all involved. Highly unlikely, I know, but I rather like CrossFit and do not relish the idea of the organization splintering apart due to silliness.

[TomC]

What sort of annual revenue are crossfit (HQ) collecting?

I don't know that they publish any official statistics, but I would bet that their annual gross revenues are in the millions of dollars. I would be surprised if it was much more than 10 million, but it's possible. I also doubt that most of the CFHQ people are really rolling in dough. Even though they may take in a significant chunk of change, there are a lot of people on the payroll and they have some significant overhead expenditures. From what I understand, the CrossFit Games cost a good deal more to put on than they take in and I shudder to think about what their webhosting/bandwidth bills amount to.

[Bloodninja666]

The Irongarm thread has its moments, but they really dive deeply into uncool territory. They make fun of Glassman's limp and they write all kinds of awful stuff about several CrossFit women like Nicole Carroll for no good reason. That's really fucking classy. It's one thing if you don't like CrossFit or Greg Glassman, but ragging on him for his disability is truly fucking low. While I've only met Nicole in passing, from what I understand she's a genuinely nice person and wholly undeserving of the kinds of things that get said about her on that board. Those dudes would never have the balls to say something like that to anyone in person.

That thread was a pretty sad and creepy example of humanity. I wish I hadn't clicked on it and advise others to pass.

[DeepBlue]

That thread was a pretty sad and creepy example of humanity. I wish I hadn't clicked on it and advise others to pass.

Agreed with you there.

[Smiler Grogan]

You just have to not take the Couch Thread too seriously, but you're right, it's not for everyone.

Here are some interesting things to think about, from the comments on Robb Wolf's blog:

Changebehindthecouch
Posted November 30, 2009 at 10:29 am

".....In the meantime, I say let all the detractors speak and let all the dirty laundry be aired:
Where is the RRG money? What are Glassman’s and other “higher-ups” credentials? Why does he not train? Why is he out of shape? Why do all the good coaches and smart people leave? Why is the cultishness encouraged? Doesn’t CF fit into the criteria for a cult? Where are all the “old school” CFers? Shouldn’t they be superhuman by now? Why don’t most successful CF Gamers not use the posted WOD to train? Where are the results for steroid testing at the Games? Why are ripped hands, vomiting, rhabdo, atrocious form, etc. glorified? Why is it that all of the legitimate, recognized authorities in weightlifting, powerlifting, endurance sports, etc. think that Crossfit and Crossfit’s attempted adaptation of their techniques are a total joke? Why is the injury forum overflowing with accounts of shoulder impingement, rhabdo, and other similar injuries, wasn’t this supposed to make me more healthy? Isn’t there something wrong with someone being able to open their own gym simply by completing a weekend seminar? Where is the accountability? Why isn’t theory behind mainpage programming revealed? What’s going on with Barry Sears, isn’t it obvious he just sees this as a huge profit making opportunity? Why won’t HQ adopt some standards for all affiliates? What’s all this business about franchising? Isn’t calling someone the “fittest athlete on the planet” an insult to those like Bryan Clay, Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods and other accomplished sports competitors? Where are the CF olympic athletes? Where is the 700 lb deadlift? Why do these questions get censored so quickly on the mainpage?
This is America goddamnit."

[TomF]

I am personally horrified at the reported exchange at the Black Box Summit. Anywhere I've ever worked, that would have been a firing offence, a "career limiting move" of the first order. I cannot imagine how Dave Castro would be allowed to keep his job, if the video evidence supports the reports of his behaviour.

Primarily, this makes me very sad; I owe a great debt to CF.

If my brother and I escape the primary family tradition of dying from heart disease in our 50s, and instead follow the other family tradition of dying from Alzheimer's in our 80s, it will be because I discovered CF ... and through it, Starting Strength. Doing strength and metcon, and getting our diets in better shape, we've each improved every health indicator that gets measured. Steve's lost 60 pounds of fat; I've probably tripled my physical capacity. It's a great thing, at 47, to think little of building a retaining wall out of big chunks of broken concrete, or a flagstone patio with stones weighing over #100 each. With no power equipment to help with the excavating, gravel moving, or stone placement. Especially great when it would have been unthinkable at age 40.

As a father, I was captivated by the broad GPP notion of fitness that CF promoted. It prepared my kids well for the specialized training they then took in their various sports, especially when interspersed with periodic bouts of focused strength training (SS). My kids are all late with their growth spurts ... have typically been a head shorter than their peers, like I was. Unlike me, they're now kids with 2X bodyweight DLs, 1.5X bodyweight squats, and metabolic systems that aren't shocked by the notion of having to do some actual work.

The effect has been that despite their significant size disadvantages, they've not only participated in a bunch of different sports, but had strong success. Whether in rowing, karate, gymnastics, soccer, etc. As a Dad, I'm grateful for the self confidence that physical competence has given them, which is in sharp contrast to where I was at the same age ... as a small, weak, and physically incapable kid.

So to see CF's ostensible strength as a program crumbling ... its "open source" approach, its "black boxing" which takes what works rather than what's gospel ... that's a sad thing. The Black Box summit exemplifies precisely what I found so compelling about CF; the fact that it's an unwelcome development in the eyes of CFHQ is an unfortunate wake-up call.

Bottom line, I expect that I'll continue to use elements of CF training modalities 'till I do expire ... because as Glassman's memorably said, the type of fitness CF generates is very useful for real life. I don't need to be elite ... but I will need enough GPP and strength to be functional. The greater specializations I indulge in - whether strength, or rowing, or whatever - will be extensions from that GPP base.

[rhymer]

Look, say what you want about Castro. He sounds like a complete tool, and comes off that way in the video I've seen. But Everett has been undermining the brand. Performance Menu has become an extended critique of all things Crossfit, from training to specific coaching cues to programming. I know less about Wolf, but it sounds like he was similarly critiquing a cornerstone recommendation of Crossfit. It's fine for them to say, "But I'm right." Try that at work. The issue isn't whether they're right, the issue is whether they're behaving themselves professionally and protecting the brand.

Compare Mark, who actively promoted Crossfit, worked behind the scenes in an appropriate way to make changes he thought were necessary, and has refrained from commenting since the break.

[Smiler Grogan]

But do you think Mark would be quietly fading away if the incident causing him to split had been Castro calling him a fat fuck in front of a group of people and then putting his hands on him? I would be sorely disappointed if he did.

[rhymer]

I'm not at all defending Castro. Just pointing out that there's a real underlying issue that sort of cuts both ways. Probably it's inevitable, given the way things are structured. Which I'm also not defending.

[strengthstarter]

Perhaps so, but I think that is just a difference in the perceived organizational culture. It sounds like those two thought they could retain a critical eye and be open about it, and that this would be valued by the organization. It seems that it is not. I am personally refreshed by the idea that an organization can embrace someone who doesn't tow 100% the party line, but still brings a lot to the table. It mirrors that attitude that Stacey mentioned earlier, and lets me know that the organization is open to the idea of learning and change.

[rhymer]

I basically agree. But the problem is branding. What makes Crossfit distinctively Crossfit? This is as much a problem with their no-franchise model as the quality assurance issue.

[TomF]

My impression is, like yours, that both Greg Everett and Robb Wolf have longstanding disagreements with some of CrossFit HQ's positions in their respective fields. They and HQ are coming from quite different starting places, and neither (I think) appreciate the validity of the other guy's position.

I've zero doubt that both Greg and Robb can show faster athlete progressions from following their approaches, rather than following the generic mainpage + zone. That's their point.

CFHQ uses mainpage + zone as an entry point for newbies of whatever background ... or lack of background. An unspoken strength of the random WOD approach is that none of these are alienated by coming in somewhere in the middle of a periodization phase, or in the middle of a block focusing on (say) ring work, or strength accumulation, when up till then they'd only ever done long-slow-distance running. A GPP approach, and random GPP capacities trained in the WODs, gives each newb enough of their "strength" area to keep them 'round for the "weakness" areas. And have them start to generate the ambition to address them.

I think the same's true for Zone. It's rigorous, but it's simple. If, like most CF newbies you're fat, you soon won't be. If you eat enough protein, you'll build some muscle too. It's a discipline, but it produces visible results.

Neither random WODs nor generic Zone will continue to deliver improvements after a while; both will need some significant tweaks, to address what the individual's identified as goals. But by then, the individual has got some goals, and can pursue them.

Greg and Robb don't understand that Greg Glassman's project and theirs aren't the same. For that matter, it's pretty obvious that Dave Castro doesn't "get it" either.

[rhymer]

These are all good points. And I think the difference with Mark, in addition to his being a gentleman, is he gets it.

[nisora33]

Greg and Robb don't understand that Greg Glassman's project and theirs aren't the same. For that matter, it's pretty obvious that Dave Castro doesn't "get it" either.

Who cares whose project it is? The bottom line is this: CrossFit has always, always boasted about how its "open source," right? Open source means that everyone can look inside, experiment, tinker and bring their experience to the table for potential changes.

If someone comes to you bearing compelling scientific or anecdotal evidence that THERE IS A BETTER WAY, you don't turn around and tell them to shut the fuck up. You listen, you try to duplicate their results and after enough people have done that, then everyone can adopt the refined methodology. Period.

If CrossFit doesn't want to do that, then they need to stop screaming "open source!" But they won't do that because that's been one of its strongest selling points from the beginning. See?

[juicysweet]

do you think Mark would be quietly fading away if the incident causing him to split had been Castro calling him a fat fuck in front of a group of people and then putting his hands on him? I would be sorely disappointed if he did.

I guarantee you that the outcome would have been much different had he been brave enough to touch Rip.

Everett isn't a fat fuck, but I am disappointed in his behaviour. And the missed opportunity in a place where the law would have been entirely in support of an appropriate physical response.

[Smiler Grogan]

You know, I've known a lot of operators, and I've seen them in fights. I love and respect the hell out of them, and they can endure a suck-fest that I can't wrap my head around, but they still drop like a rock when they get concussed. I'm just sayin'.

[Gwynn]

Everett isn't a fat fuck, but I am disappointed in his behaviour. And the missed opportunity in a place where the law would have been entirely in support of an appropriate physical response.

Don't be so sure that the law would support any physical response. Or that "the law" defines "appropriate" the same way you do. Despite being a martial arts geek and self defense instructor, I believe de-escalation nine times out of ten a wiser response, especially when involved in a "whose dick is bigger" conflict. I know it would be very tempting to want to break the guy's arm and I'm not saying I'd be able to avoid the temptation but the consequences could be expensive.

[TomC]

Everett isn't a fat fuck, but I am disappointed in his behaviour. And the missed opportunity in a place where the law would have been entirely in support of an appropriate physical response.

Everett absolutely did the right thing. Castro did not threaten him with physical violence, although he did apparently touch Everett which is a no-no. Had Everett hit him, however, Everett would have been arrested. Your first obligation under the law is to retreat. Just because someone is being an asshole does not give you the right under the law to strike them. Castro, however, could have conceivably been in legal hot water for touching Everett.

[MAD9692]

I don't think the same laws apply in Texas. Which is why I often consider moving there.

[Craig B.]

That thread was a pretty sad and creepy example of humanity. I wish I hadn't clicked on it and advise others to pass.

This from Blood Ninja 666? Dude, you rock!

[juicysweet]

Castro did not threaten him with physical violence, although he did apparently touch Everett which is a no-no.

Physical contact with another when he knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as provocative is already assault. There is no obligation to retreat from an attack. Even in Austin.

[misspelledgeoff]

yeah it's called the castle doctrine and I'm pretty sure it applies to your person as well as your car and castle. there is no obligation to retreat. glad i moved to texas 7 years ago and i i'm not leavin anytime soon.


I don't think the same laws apply in Texas. Which is why I often consider moving there.

[TomC]

Physical contact with another when he knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as provocative is already assault.

Very true. Castro assaulted Everett by making contact with him.


There is no obligation to retreat from an attack. Even in Austin.

Actually there is. I have been told this by a police officer giving a lecture on the legal implications of the use of force. Your first obligation under the law is to retreat. As unpalatable as that might sound, this point was emphasized over and over by the officer. If retreat is not possible, then you can respond in kind. However, hitting someone just because they touch you is not proportionate and could absolutely result in an arrest.

None of us were there, so it is difficult to say exactly how things went down. However, I stand by my assertion that Greg really did well in this situation. His impressive display of self control is to be commended in my opinion.

[Sgsolberg]

Actually, the castle doctrine is that a person has no obligation to retreat if you are in your domicile and fearing "great bodily harm". You are subsequently are allowed to use lethal force to protect yourself and others in your home. Some states extend this to your place of work or car (which may apply to the BBSummit as it was a place of work). Note the term "great bodily harm" is used. This generally means threat of mutiliation or death, a few punches does not qualify.

Barring this circumstance, you have a legal responsibility to retreat or search for a peaceful solution first. When all peaceful solutions have been exhausted, then non-lethal appropriate responses are legal.

[George Noble]

Why should Everett be compelled to keep his CrossFit critique private and just change things behind the scenes? His site is giving advice, and he is saying what he thinks is best. Rip did this too, even when he was involved in CF. When a weak person asked him how best to get better prepared for life, how did he answer?
a. you need to get stronger.
b. you need to get your Fran time down pending CFHQ changing their minds.

[Patrick]

There is a quip that's stuck in my mind. It was Glassman saying something along the lines of "if a guy finds out that eating cantaloupe and rollerblading makes you more fit" he'll adopt that approach and "make you famous" by popularizing your method. That's the forward-thinking approach anyone concerned with actual human performance should take.

But riddle me this: in current CF, Zone still bests cantaloupe, even though cantaloupe is actually unmeasured Paleo -- shown by Wolf and others to increase performance of known CF athletes. And why isn't there a programmed introduction to strength training? It's not rollerblading but I'll bet dollars to god-damn-donuts that when you hit CF with a good bit of strength, you'll get a LOT more out of it than a weaker cohort. Note Dave Tate's wisdom -- strength helps EVERYTHING in the CF list of 10 traits while the others have mild or moderate carryover. In my view CF is failing its followers on both the diet and nutrition front. That's a shame, since it seems to be their enterprise.

The message of CF is that there's a 'best' training and nutrition. The much trumpeted community is seeing viable alternatives to (or variations on) current standards. Where's the Journal on that? Instead of honest assessment we get to hear talk about how Gym Jones sucks from people who, most likely, really love to emphasize the capitalization when they refer to Greg Glassman as their "Coach".

The folks who observed a "cult-like mentality" might seem a little more observant righ about now... How'd you like the latest op-ed that Lauren posted? If your gullet's not crammed full I've got a whole slate of political opinions I can shove down it.

[RobertFontaine]

I am frankly confused by the crossfit method.

I understood that the supposition was that exercises selected randomly from a pool of "good" exercises were/are assumed to provide an effective gpp.

From this people seemed to have found pretty quickly that random may be effective but not optimal and started programming.

Others have found that strength is the highest impact elements of fitness to do something about so have emphasized this in their training.

I didn't think that crossfit precluded these two "discoveries" and don't really understand why/if the numbers bear this out that this hasn't been integrated into the WOD's?

As I said I'm pretty confused by this but it seems similar in tone/philosophy to the debate at hand. Can anyone help me understand this?

[tescott]

Crossfit programming has never been 'random', but rather 'constantly varied'. There is a subtle but important difference between these. 'Constantly varied' is necessarily purposely selected, since random may feasibly produce any number of similar or identical consecutive workouts. 'Constantly varied' also allows for difference in emphasis over time - maintaining some constants (like a strength emphasis), while varying the programming enough to maintain the effect of variation.

I understand that crossfit mainpage programming does cycle through different emphases, but the problem is that it does not 'know' what your weaknesses are, and so which emphases to focus on. Rip and Everett have both noticed that strength is a weakness for most people, and so pure strength work, or a greater strength bias would be more useful for the majority of the CF population.

Having said that, mainpage programming assumes a great deal of strength already, see in their 'start here' section:

[to jump right into the WODs] is for those athletes with an extensive experience in athletic strength and conditioning.

However, they go on to say that if you don't hve experience, just get used to the movements over a couple of months, then get into it, rather than recommending strength work first, which you might expect, given their first recommendation.

[Ryan Dell Whitley]

Crossfit programming has never been 'random', but rather 'constantly varied'. There is a subtle but important difference between these. 'Constantly varied' is necessarily purposely selected, since random may feasibly produce any number of similar or identical consecutive workouts. 'Constantly varied' also allows for difference in emphasis over time - maintaining some constants (like a strength emphasis), while varying the programming enough to maintain the effect of variation.

I understand that crossfit mainpage programming does cycle through different emphases, but the problem is that it does not 'know' what your weaknesses are, and so which emphases to focus on. Rip and Everett have both noticed that strength is a weakness for most people, and so pure strength work, or a greater strength bias would be more useful for the majority of the CF population.

Having said that, mainpage programming assumes a great deal of strength already, see in their 'start here' section:

[to jump right into the WODs] is for those athletes with an extensive experience in athletic strength and conditioning.

However, they go on to say that if you don't hve experience, just get used to the movements over a couple of months, then get into it, rather than recommending strength work first, which you might expect, given their first recommendation.

Can you describe any discernible programming in CF MP WOD?

[tescott]

I don't need to. They have already done that.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2003/02/theoretical-template-for-cross.tpl

[nisora33]

I don't need to. They have already done that.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2003/02/theoretical-template-for-cross.tpl

I've read this. The only problem is, the Mainpage WOD hasn't followed this template in, well, ages. So what good is describing a theoretical template if it's not even going to be used?

The template you referenced with your link is actually better in my opinion than what you see popping up on the Mainpage. Even better is the Crossfit Wichita Fall Program. Don't believe me? Try it and see. I've done Mainpage, my own workouts designed according to the above-mentioned theoretical template, and Justin's program. The latter is superior, and all you have to do is experiment with it to know that what I'm saying is true. But see if you'll get anyone at HQ to listen.

-Stacey

[tescott]

Point taken Stacey, and I agree. I was aware that the template was theoretical - the paper itself states that. My point was that there is some programming, and it is not simply picked randomly out of the air. However, because of the high variation, it's difficult to 'show' you exactly how its been programmed.

Though, one example that I've observed over the years is that most 4-day cycles include one weightlifting day, and that these tend to be rotated around, so you're not repeating similar movements too closely together. Have a look at the last couple of months, and you'll see some pattern. This can't be simply random, as there are far more other workouts than simple weightlifting days, and true randomness often produces what looks a lot like non-variation.

Anyway, my point was never in defense of the mainpage WODs. I was trying to give some clarity to RobertFontaine, and I was pointing out a weakness that many of us agree on about the mainpage WODs - that they don't recognise weaknesses and seek to address them, particularly the important one of strength - a weakness which WFCF does recognise and seek to remedy.

[nisora33]

Points taken.


Point taken Stacey, and I agree. I was aware that the template was theoretical - the paper itself states that. My point was that there is some programming, and it is not simply picked randomly out of the air.

Though, one example that I've observed over the years is that most 4-day cycles include one weightlifting day, and that these tend to be rotated around, so you're not repeating similar movements too closely together. Have a look at the last couple of months, and you'll see some pattern. This can't be simply random, as there are far more other workouts than simple weightlifting days, and true randomness often produces what looks a lot like non-variation.


Take a look at this WOD:

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/005096.html

Workouts like this one make me wonder whether there's really as much thought put into them as we're led to believe. To be honest, this one really looks like something that has been pulled out of someone's ass. And for the majority of the population, how is a one-armed pull-up "functional."

-s.

[Smiler Grogan]

Stay tuned for the epicondylitis threads in the injury forum.

[strengthstarter]

Take a look at this WOD:

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/005096.html

Workouts like this one make me wonder whether there's really as much thought put into them as we're led to believe. To be honest, this one really looks like something that has been pulled out of someone's ass. And for the majority of the population, how is a one-armed pull-up "functional."

It might be somewhat functional for a rock climber. I don't have a huge problem with this, although it is sometimes annoying to try to figure out how to scale some of the workouts that are clearly way to hard for me. That said, I do appreciate the variety with the workouts of CrossFit in general, and trying something new can be fun. I figure people who do CrossFit want to increase the general athletic ability, and while that concept is sortof nebulous, I think it could include the ability to pull one's bodyweight with one arm, especially for those who can do two-armed pullups easily.

Not to diverge too much here but I was thinking the other day that it would be nice if the workouts had with it two things:

1. A rating system that told you for each workout to what level they worked the 10(There are 10, right? Seems like that could be pared down maybe) different "fitness areas".

2. A standard time or goal for completion that is invariant.

This would allow someone who is working out to the CrossFit regime to both identify weak points in their general fitness level and also to compare between workouts that are not identical, by dividing their own times by the standard time to achieve a unitless score. I see this about as useful as the weightlifing standards. Not the end-all-be-all of self-assessment, but a useful metric nonetheless.

[PatrickBaldwin]

Points taken.



Take a look at this WOD:

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/005096.html

Workouts like this one make me wonder whether there's really as much thought put into them as we're led to believe. To be honest, this one really looks like something that has been pulled out of someone's ass. And for the majority of the population, how is a one-armed pull-up "functional."

-s.


Seriously? 30 one-armed 60# weighted pull-ups in the first round alone. I'm really starting to worry about the future of CF. This was just stupid.

[Smiler Grogan]

Yeah, it seems to me that this would fall into the "any asshole" workout category supposedly disdained by crossfit.

[Ryan Dell Whitley]

I don't need to. They have already done that.

http://journal.crossfit.com/2003/02/theoretical-template-for-cross.tpl


Point taken Stacey, and I agree. I was aware that the template was theoretical - the paper itself states that. My point was that there is some programming, and it is not simply picked randomly out of the air. However, because of the high variation, it's difficult to 'show' you exactly how its been programmed.

Though, one example that I've observed over the years is that most 4-day cycles include one weightlifting day, and that these tend to be rotated around, so you're not repeating similar movements too closely together. Have a look at the last couple of months, and you'll see some pattern. This can't be simply random, as there are far more other workouts than simple weightlifting days, and true randomness often produces what looks a lot like non-variation.

Your link didn't show the programming CF uses...because the CF MP WOD does not use real programming. It is better than the shit you read in a muscle mag...but it pales in comparison to programs that have you consistently lift a handful of lifts regularly, adding weight whenever possible, and doing some sort of conditiong (running, kettlebells, swimming, etc).

CF is really only elite at one thing: marketing.

[Leeuwer]

I asked Dave Tate a question about the whole debate and inner turmoil in Crossfit. I also copied part of this thread, concerning the part where he and Louis Simmons were mentioned.

As expected, he replied like a perfect gentleman. Tate really deserves the respect he gets, not just as a trainer, athlete or businessowner.


Dave,

Are you aware of the current discussion in the Crossfit Community?

Apparently Robb Wolf and Greg Everett were verbally(and almost physically)attacked by a member of the Crossfit Headquarters, Dave Castro. Mark Rippetoe also left the Crossfit Community as their go-to powerlifting coach, for unexplained reasons.

See here for Robb's side of the story:

http://robbwolf.com/?paged=2

Now, in a certain discussion thread the following was mentioned:

"Wolf is being replaced by Sears, which is OK, and Everett doesn't need replacing so much because they have Burg. Rip has pretty much been replaced by Dave Tate and if I remember correctly, Louie Simmons who is presenting a "CrossFit Powerlifting" seminar. This is where things get interesting, because Simmons and Tate are not exactly well known for taking shit from people like Castro. From what the rumours are saying, Castro is basically out of control and the two mentioned coaches are hardly likely to toe the CrossFit line. Castro's military history doesn't matter at this point - if he pulls the same shit with Louie we might see our first CrossFit induced death. Or if Wendler is involved maybe the first CrossFit induced teabagging. The element of surprise is what makes this fun to watch."

What are your thoughts on this?

Not asking to start a big discussion as it's understandable you don't want to get involved, but it's interesting to hear what you think about all of this.

Jeff.

Dave Tate:

I was not aware of any of this except for Louie doing the Powerlifting certification.

I did one seminar for them over a year ago and don't have any others planned nor any business relationship with them at this time.

I do hope they give Louie more credit then what is stated. He is an adult and a professional at what he does. He's not going go to flip out and kill anyone but from what he's told me the certification will be at Westside with the help of Westside lifters. Now they are the ones you don't want to piss off. Having been a part of the gym-team for over a decade I do know how pissed I got if someone tried to piss on him or the gym.

I can't really comment on some of the other people you listed because I've never heard of them before now. Please understand this doesn't mean they don't know their stuff, it just means the industry as a whole is much bigger than people think and I only focus on the sectors closest to the demographics of elitefts.

So to answer your question: I really don't have any thoughts on this at all.

Source:

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=109790&tid=

[MAD9692]

So what was the end result of this shit? Did Castro get fired? Did Greg throw him in an arm bar? Did Glassman apologize to Robb and Greg and beg them to come back? Did Glassman beg Rip to come back? Where is the video? In the IGX link it says that Castro started some shit with Rip in the past and Rip chewed his ass out. Any truth behind that? I want some answers damn it.

[George Noble]

Ha. Let's hope Castro isn't at the Westside seminar then.

[Sami]

lol, nice one nunz.

EDIT: Why the edit?

[George Noble]

Because I re-read Tate's post and it didn't make me look as silly as I thought when I read it the first time.

[JLascek]

Not to deter from the obvious on-topic discussion of tits, but Rip didn't do "powerlifting seminars" for CrossFit. It was just basic barbell training to get strong. Very different from powerlifting, and this distinction is important.

[MAD9692]

Funny...Rip gets a plug from Castro in the newest CF Journal entry.

[Smiler Grogan]

What a toolbox.

[pbjorge12]

What a toolbox.
I just watched the video myself - He's a bit of a twat.

Granted, everything he said was basically right I would say - It just comes across as a bit "cover my ass" with the timing and lack of acknowledgment of the actual issue.

[nisora33]

**UPDATE**

Robb and Greg were de-affiliated by CrossFit Legal yesterday:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=1053/

Also, there's been mention that the mods over at the CrossFit forums have been lurking on the Performance Menu board, and they've been modding/banning people for comments made there.

-Stacey

[Paul Sousa]

It's pretty crazy to see how far CF has fallen. I found it last year and it got me into basic barbell work so I am grateful for that, but at this point CF itself has become a joke. They also now have a supplement company coming on to sponsor the 2010 Games. They are contradicting themselves left and right and are trying to spin it all as fast as possible. I'm glad I didn't like their flavor of Kool-aid too much and can actually see how ridiculous it has become.

[MAD9692]

I agree with Paul. CF introduced me to Rip, SS, etc and thats all I give them credit for. CF is just a clever business plan with great marketing. Unfortunately bad management is going to ruin the cash cow.

[toddmr]

I share many of your concerns about the direction CFHQ has taken, but I will always be grateful to the men and women at my local affiliate who have created a strong, supportive community. Whatever CFHQ may screw up, my experience is that the rank-and-file CFers are almost uniformly great people.

[Sgsolberg]

I agree with Paul. CF introduced me to Rip, SS, etc and thats all I give them credit for. CF is just a clever business plan with great marketing. Unfortunately bad management is going to ruin the cash cow.

This. I am grateful, because the community introduced me to something that works. Crossfit just does not fit my goals (who wants to be 165 lbs? - My wife calls men that size weasels).

[nisora33]

I share many of your concerns about the direction CFHQ has taken, but I will always be grateful to the men and women at my local affiliate who have created a strong, supportive community. Whatever CFHQ may screw up, my experience is that the rank-and-file CFers are almost uniformly great people.

Yes, I've had positive experiences with CrossFitters at the affiliate level. Great support, enthusiasm, you name it.

And I, too, found Rip and Starting Strength through CrossFit. Started me down my current path. And that's been priceless.

-S.

[MAD9692]

looks like the drama continues at CFHQ...check out Robb Wolffs site. apparently Glassman has lost his mind.

[TomF]

I'm sorry for the ongoing drama.

But as an affiliate friend said to me the other day, really this doesn't need to affect his business at all. CF methods work as well (or I suppose, as poorly) as ever to generate GPP; a guy running a high quality local gym can continue to, well, run a high quality local gym.

The CFHQ world seems incredibly important, here in the age of internet enabled angst. But really, once decent training information is available, why are domesticated Gurus needed at all? Well, to run Certs. But why would you absolutely need a Cert, if the info's already available?

In 100 years, they'll not be busily remembering most of the names bandied about in the training community ... or pretty much any community. What will be left is the stuff that worked; re-packaged and renewed for the trainees of that time.

[ThatGuy]

I find all of this highly disturbing from what I once thought of as a community of respect and openness.

The answer to 9 out of 10 questions is money, so is it so hard to imagine that CF inc does have something to gain by seeing Sears take over the seminars, and pushing the Zone diet?

When I read about certain people being kicked out, or dropping out, the word "coup" comes to mind, and I am reminded of instances in history in which former allies become enemies and are eliminated to make way for a new path. Caesar went to war against Pompey, Cato, and the rest. Hitler executed his "night of the long knives," eliminating enemies, as well as the SA, his own (old) henchmen, in favor of the SS, his new henchmen.

And no, I'm not comparing ANYONE to Hitler, I'm just saying, this is how power-plays go down.

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I have a good nose for such things, and the only accounts I'm hearing of this even, coupled with the facts we do know- Robb and Everett being kicked out and Rip leaving- leaves a stench in my nostrils.

I wonder- if what seems to be actually is, does Glassman really know what's going on, is he behind such maneuvering, is someone whispering in his ear?

I can only hope that some day Rip, a man I have no reason not to trust entirely, though we have never met, will some day feel it right to give his reason for leaving the organization.

[PMDL]

Talk about overcomplicating things.

Occam's razor gives you a much simpler answer than all that pseudo-philosophizing.

[ThatGuy]

I should also add that the CF Journal has also, very recently, put up one video I remember of Castro speaking, talking about "the real battle" and saying that you have the Zone, Paleo, South Beach, and that as CrossFitters, we should want people trying them all and seeing what works.

Here's the link
http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/12/understanding-the-real-battle.tpl

Late November is when Robb and Everett are ejected, December 06, that video comes out- the timing is certainly interesting.

[nisora33]

ThatGuy: CrossFit is all about "the brand." Part of CrossFit, the brand, is the paleo diet. Robb was suggesting changing the approach to paleo dieting, but Greg and the rest of those fuckers couldn't allow that, it would mean altering "the brand." So they shitcanned him.

But CrossFit professes itself to be open source, and shitcanning Robb for experimenting and suggesting A Different Way is far from open-source behavior. So they had to do a spin job to make it look as though Robb (and Greg, although for slightly different reasons) were at fault and HQ had to let them go. That's all it was. Money, money, money and branding.

-Stacey

[gzt]

You mean The Zone is part of the brand and Robb was suggesting alterations to that and using Paleo diets. And Greg was badmouthing @Fit olympic lift technique (pedagogy and performance thereof) and programming, not commenting on the diet.

But, yes, @Fit is a brand and the brand is pretty much all they have to sell. This is quite explicitly the case: two of their major revenue streams are licenses to use the brand. @Fit is not an "exercise methodology" or "movement" or "open source", it is a corporate brand.

[nisora33]

You mean The Zone is part of the brand and Robb was suggesting alterations to that and using Paleo diets.

Yep, that's what I meant to say. Paleo, zone, whatever--I don't do either one.

[mcsquared]

Kinda funny vid- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZp1bLh06Fo&feature=related

Also for my two cents:

I am thankful, like the rest of you, to crossfit for helping me find starting strength. I was doing the WODs, but my strength base was not solid enough to where I could perform anywhere close to how they were prescribed. My buddy, to whom I will forever be grateful, recommended I look into SS as a way of building my strength base to better perform WODs. Now, I've read SS:BBT, am reading Practical Programming, and have learned more about weight training than I'd ever thought I'd know. I just wish I found this shit sooner.

[Raskolnikov]

Kinda funny vid- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZp1bLh06Fo&feature=related

Ahahahahaha... nice one :D

[ThatGuy]

ThatGuy: CrossFit is all about "the brand." Part of CrossFit, the brand, is the paleo diet. Robb was suggesting changing the approach to paleo dieting, but Greg and the rest of those fuckers couldn't allow that, it would mean altering "the brand." So they shitcanned him.

But CrossFit professes itself to be open source, and shitcanning Robb for experimenting and suggesting A Different Way is far from open-source behavior. So they had to do a spin job to make it look as though Robb (and Greg, although for slightly different reasons) were at fault and HQ had to let them go. That's all it was. Money, money, money and branding.

-Stacey


As I said, money: it's the answer to 9 out of 10 questions. You call it a spin job, I call it a power play, same thing in the end really.

This is all turning out to be very disappointing and dogmatic.