Internet Coaching

[nisora33]

Guys, I'm not trying to be a dick, first of all. But I do want to say a thing or two generally about some of the form critiques that I've seen here.

If you've ever attended one of Rip's seminars or watched his DVD, he talks a bit about distinguishing first-order form problems from peripheral ones. First-order problems should be addressed first, even though other problems might exist. Yes, it's a coach's responsibility to make sure that the trainee has the proper mental model in place before he or she attempts the exercise(s) in question. However, when learning a new movement, the trainee simply cannot focus on every form issue at once.

Take the squat as an example. If I have a trainee who isn't hitting proper depth and isn't gripping the bar correctly, I'm going to have the trainee focus on the depth issue first before addressing the grip (if I've taken the trainee through the proper learning progression, he or she KNOWS the proper way to grip but hasn't yet made it a habit). The grip, in this case, is the peripheral matter.

Getting to the point, if someone posts a video on the board, please try to focus on the first-order issues. Tossing out a million and one criticisms all at once will lead to further problems. The peripheral matters can be worked out later.

Secondly, those who have had the luxury to coach a good number of people for anything longer than, say, just a few months will understand my next point. Rip has a quote: the perfect is the enemy of the good. Recently, I've witnessed a lot folks hammering on itty-bitty hiccups in form that, I guarantee you, will not amount to anything in that trainee's (hopefully) long career. Small knee wobbles, a tiny bit of "butt wink," a minute bit of knee-slide forward at the bottom of one or two reps, will not amount to much in the long run. If I were to stop my trainees every time some little hiccup cropped up or, worse, suggested that they reduce the weight each time, then none of my trainees would have approached the level that they're at now.

I'm speaking from my own personal training experience, also. There was a time a while back when I would suffer paralysis by analysis every time that I trained because I fretted over every little hiccup or detail.

Only firsthand experience training a lot of folks can teach you when a "hiccup" is more than just a hiccup and should be corrected. All I'm asking is that you please be mindful of this when you're offering advice over the internet, especially those of you who aren't a trainer or coach and haven't had the opportunities to instruct that others here have.

Sincerely,
Stacey


EDIT: 1.18.09

New guys, when somebody posts a form check video, it is not helpful for you to spout every cue you know from Starting Strength at the person posting. Cues should address specific problems. It's great that everyone wants to contribute, but don't waste everyone's time with overly general advice. Furthermore, if you're not really sure what the problem is, don't respond by guessing what the problem might be, then throwing random cues at the problem hoping that one of them will "stick."

-S.

[tnumrych]

I concur. As a personal trainer myself it is sometimes difficult to refrain from tossing all the instructions at a new trainee but it has to be done for progress to continue.

[misspelledgeoff]

great post.

i wish we had some sort of rating system for posters or some designation if they are a coach.

too often a solid piece of coaching from someone who knows his shit get's drowned out by the form-nit minutia from non-experts. and the poor OP doesn't know enough to separate wheat from chaff.

[nisora33]

great post.

i wish we had some sort of rating system for posters or some designation if they are a coach.

too often a solid piece of coaching from someone who knows his shit get's drowned out by the form-nit minutia from non-experts. and the poor OP doesn't know enough to separate wheat from chaff.

And again, I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I know everyone here is well-meaning, and the collective attitude is one of support and interest in helping others grow. But I thought these things should be pointed out and kept in mind going forward.

Likewise, if I say something waaaayy off base about something, I fully expect everyone here to call me out on my shit. You're helping me learn, and I'm helping you.

-S.

[Smiler Grogan]

I can't agree more. FAR too much critical minutiae and very little reinforcement of what's right.
Ironically lot of these critiques are regurgitated by people with 185# squats who just finished the book last week. I don't have a big squat myself, but I know how to stay in my lane.

[JC400]

Good post stacey

I think one of the pitfalls that is easy to fall into with giving advice over a forum is, reading someones post and believing the advice they are asking for is addressed solely to you (me) to answer. Then again if no one answers your questions it can seem like a lonely place. Its a delicate balance I guess.

On another point I have noticed that trying to convey coaching in a concise and clear written form is an art to itself. Instructions or advice that makes perfect sense when being typed will often read slightly different to someone else.

I like to think this helps explain why so many people that say they have read the SS chapter on squats, still do a squat that looks nothing like what it should. They interpret Rip's words in their own brains and once in there, well, with some people who knows what will come out.

[steelerfan]

Lurker for some time now but first post so this may mean squat ! How about if they could include after your board status and idication that you had completed either the crossfit cert. or the new Starting Strength cert. with that info. E.G : Senior Member - SS Cert. or Just Rip Certified for either .

[nisora33]

That's a possibility, steelerfan. That would have to be up to the mods, though.

The only draw back to that might be it could breed an atmosphere or feeling of elitism among some. I don't know, we all seem like relatively good boy and girls here, however :)

-S.

[Smiler Grogan]

I don't think that would change the quality of the advice offered, and I'd be willing to bet that some smart and experienced guys around here with a lot to offer have been to neither cert.

[JesseJJ]

JMO, of course, but I don't think it's a good idea to have credentials listed here. There are plenty of 'coaches' and 'trainers' who know little and amateur 'novices' who know much. This is a relatively new forum, but that kinda stuff will be obvious over time. And this is a forum, not a Q&A for the 'qualified'.

I do agree, however, on the level of minutae that gets offered as critique. I mean people point out Konstantinov's upper back rounding when he pulls 939#. C'mon.

[steelerfan]

I don't think that would change the quality of the advice offered, and I'd be willing to bet that some smart and experienced guys around here with a lot to offer have been to neither cert.

Yeah I agree and I think anybody that has lurked or been arround here enough can recognize this to some degree and I do appericate the advice from such folks . That being said I have seen ALOT of people in the gym that have been there for years doing stupid shit and giving BAD advice ! But I have learned to weed out the BS by what I have read in BBT 2nd edition and PP 1st & 2nd edition. And honestly I know for a fact if I am able to attend the new SS seminar and get hands on advice / knowledge I would be all the better for it . And from what I have read about it, if you don't pass all asspects including the test you don't get cert. So yeah I would but merit into it , plus it's a recognition for the folks that complete it.

[Steve in ATL]

My thoughts:

1) On any internet forum there is a wheat / chaff ratio. I think that most who come to a forum recognize that.
2) I do not think that one has to be a coach in order to understand or convey the basic principals.
3) That being said, I am a firm believer that one of the best ways to truly understand something is to teach it, which is why I encourage all my guys that I coach to work with / teach / coach others.
4) I still have not figured out how to get my royalties out of any of them.
5) Finally, I think that everyone who posts could do with a little more introspection and thought prior to posting, myself included, because I've never regretted taking some extra time to think something over.Except for that time with the drunk cheerleader, but that's a story for another day.


Oh, and I'm all for the playful ribbing / cussing / poking-fun that goes on both in the gym and here. Traditions are important.

[Dave76]

Likewise, if I say something waaaayy off base about something, I fully expect everyone here to call me out on my shit. You're helping me learn, and I'm helping you...

I think this is an important, and often overlooked point. Sometimes you can learn as much by answering questions as you can by asking them, as long as you have an open mind and can take criticism.

Again, there's a fine line to walk. You don't want some dumb ass constantly spitting out useless stuff but I think it's good to encourage people to speak up. You can have a wrong idea and not know it unless you speak up and someone tells you.

[nisora33]

Oh, and I'm all for the playful ribbing / cussing / poking-fun that goes on both in the gym and here. Traditions are important.

You all are the kind of foul-mouthed, ignorant fucking degenerates that make me wish I'd never been born. And I love you for it.

-S.

[nisora33]

...I'd be willing to bet that some smart and experienced guys around here with a lot to offer have been to neither cert.

Excellent point, by the way.

[stef]

How about if they could include after your board status and idication that you had completed either the crossfit cert. or the new Starting Strength cert. with that info. E.G : Senior Member - SS Cert. or Just Rip Certified for either .

No plans for this.

Please keep in mind that certifications are assessments to assure that one has met the minimum standards. Nothing more. It doesn't mean someone is good or experienced or correct. Even if they are those things in general, they can still fuck things up, especially in situations where they have limited contact with the trainee they are evaluating. This is multiplied many times over for peeps with limited actual practical experience.

Whatever you do, make sure to avoid people who don't actually train. Hearsay, dry-labbed and other imagination-based opinions don't mean shit.

s.

[nisora33]

Whatever you do, make sure to avoid people who don't actually train. Hearsay, dry-labbed and other imagination-based opinions don't mean shit.

But Stef, someone at my gym told me that lean chicken breasts, rice, creatine and bicep curls would get me fawkin hyoooge!! That, and women shouldn't lift heavy because they'll get big like teh menz.

-S.

[DeepBlue]

But Stef, someone at my gym told me that lean chicken breasts, rice, creatine and bicep curls would get me fawkin hyoooge!! That, and women shouldn't lift heavy because they'll get big like teh menz.

-S.

If those were his words then you will be hyooooge! 'round teh fawkin GUT :D

[Kyle Aaron]

How about if they could include after your board status and idication that you had completed either the crossfit cert. or [...]
On another board I'm on, many of us put our experience and/or qualifications, our years training and our best lifts in our signatures.

There's a big difference between
- 2 years, bench 122.5kg, squat 80kg
- 3 months, bench 77.5kg, squat 95kg, deadlift 140kg
etc

I mean, when it comes down to it, if you got big lifts and in proportion (eg not benching less than you squat), you must have been doing something right, so people will listen to you. And if you're not a big lifter but are a (say) physiotherapist, people might also be interested in what you say for other reasons.

keep in mind that certifications are assessments to assure that one has met the minimum standards. Nothing more. It doesn't mean someone is good or experienced or correct.
As someone pursuing a particular certification, I can agree with this ;)

[Smiler Grogan]

[quote=stef bradford;83022

whatever you do, make sure to avoid people who don't actually train. Hearsay, dry-labbed and other imagination-based opinions don't mean shit.

S.[/quote]
+11,000,000

[Smiler Grogan]

But Stef, someone at my gym told me that lean chicken breasts, rice, creatine and bicep curls would get me fawkin hyoooge!! That, and women shouldn't lift heavy because they'll get big like teh menz.

-S.
You would be both fawkin hyooge AND hawdkaw.

[JLascek]

On another board I'm on, many of us put our experience and/or qualifications, our years training and our best lifts in our signatures.

There's a big difference between
- 2 years, bench 122.5kg, squat 80kg
- 3 months, bench 77.5kg, squat 95kg, deadlift 140kg
etc

I mean, when it comes down to it, if you got big lifts and in proportion (eg not benching less than you squat), you must have been doing something right, so people will listen to you. And if you're not a big lifter but are a (say) physiotherapist, people might also be interested in what you say for other reasons.



Just because someone is strong does not mean they know anything about coaching.

[DeepBlue]

Just because someone is strong does not mean they know anything about coaching.

Yup. Had this discussion many times.

The best coach is usually someone who didn't have a natural aptitude for the sport. They had to work for all their skill/strength/understanding, making many mistakes, refinements and improvements along the way. This develops a deeper understanding of what they are doing than the natural, who "just gets it", and often doesn't see why others don't.

Even better if during that learning they themselves were guided by a skilled coach, and debatably - if they were coached by someone who wasn't a great coach, just good enough, but a great performer: in that case they had to work out a lot of the magic themselves.

A good coach will hand you the knife and fork, not spoon feed you. My view of Rip - he hands you hunting knife and tells you to go out, kill it, skin it, and eat it :D (Yeah, I'm sure he can cut your food up for you too when you're a weak newbie).

Coaching is a skill. In martial arts all the time I encounter instructors who talk talk talk. OK, I'm an intellectual guy, I like to talk... but I can do that over a beer, in the training hall I want feedback on my movement. When you do the following: attempt the movement, get some physical positioning, verbal guidance of alignment, physical feedback, correction, encouragement for the correct movement, enthusiasm and understanding that you're not necessarily going to get it ALL right now - that's a good coach.

Again, this is something which Coach Rip emphasises in his book. He's not just teaching the lifts, he's teaching how to coach.

In my martial arts school I'm an invited student to our instructor development courses (prob another year before I get to even try for that grade). We cover a tiny bit of coaching theory, but most of the time is spent making sure our own techniques are up to scratch, coaching each other. I can tell you that out of a room of about 30 instructors, there are only a few who are all-round great coaches. And those are the ones who spend the most time teaching the whole spectrum - beginners through advanced.

Are the skills transferable? Hell yes. Example: I trained to become a PADI Diving Instructor. I was complimented on having the best in water teaching skills - where you obviously can't talk all the time. Without martial arts training I'd never have developed the physical observation skills.

So should it matter that I've only been doing barbell exercises for 3 months? Yes. I'm still learning the basic movements myself, making mistakes and refining my technique as I get stronger.

Does that mean I can't assist coaching at a beginner level? No. I've read SS. I can watch youtube and see form errors, and usually guess as to what mental image/physical feedback is being missed. This is because when I started CrossFit, when I wasn't lifting I was watching our coach (prior to CF a olift cert instructor), and the feedback he was giving to other people (if I wasn't spotting... then I was watching my partner, making observations, but holding my tongue).

None of you should be looking to the internet as a coach. Only an assistance tool to your own self coaching, or in addition to a lifting coach. You better believe when I'm back in the Western World, I'll be looking for a coach, so I can learn more self-coaching skills.

[Kyle Aaron]

Just because someone is strong does not mean they know anything about coaching.
Absolutely.

But they at least know how they got strong.

And when we're talking about random strangers giving each-other advice online, that's about all we can hope for. Experienced coaches offering free advice are pretty rare. Bros tellin' it like it is and talking about their penises are much more common. So all we can do is judge by results.

[DeepBlue]

But they at least know how they got strong.

I disagree with this statement. I know some people who can run reasonable half marathon times. They didn't 'train' for it. They just went all out on a decent level of fitness/pain threshold and limped for a week or more. Ask them about it, and they would never mention the week plus of limping. I'd ask because they were people I saw never running. Ask them how they got a 1h 30min run, and they'd pull a big shrug. Some people will train for years to get a 1h 30m half. Most of them will follow a program from a website/magazine or maybe a book. They will not understand how or why the program is structured. The fact that it uses periodisation (or not). They probably still don't log their workouts/resting heart rate/food or sleep intake - and then incorrectly attribute raceday success to their latest plan - when in reality it was the fact that 2 months prior they'd moved house, they'd improved their diet and were getting proper sleep.

There will be yet more who are up there in the results, who go to a running club, and run what the coach tells them to. They probably have insights - we're starting to talk about people who might know what worked for them.

On the internet no one knows you're a dog.

I can say I BP 160kg at a BW of 80kg... but it would be a lie. I can say I BP 70kg at a BW of 80kg, but you didn't see me bounce the bar off my chest, and I neglected to mention I was wearing a bench shirt at the time... (also a complete fabrication for example).


Of course, these are problems you encounter in real life too. As always, you MUST take responsibility for your own training and do your homework.

[nisora33]

You make a lot of great points, Deepblue.

I know plenty of really strong, really big guys where I work, some of whom know exactly how they were able to get big and strong, others of whom don't. Of those who trained right and trained hard, only a very, very small number of them could actually relate this basic information to others effectively. Of those, an even smaller number could teach someone how to squat, dead, press and bench correctly, beyond just picking up the bar and saying "Here, just do it like I do."

The latter two abilities are rare. It helps to have exposure to quality coaching methods. It requires that "coach's eye," which is developed by studying people's movements, doing the movements in question themselves, and understanding how people learn. And you must be an effective communicator.

Juli, one of Rip's platform coaches, really drove the latter point home to me at one of Rip's Florida seminars. It's easy to overcoach the movements, and on the platform, simplicity of direction is key.

Deepblue, I share your background and experience teaching and learning martial arts. For six years, I practiced two and later three disciplines, and I spent the last three of those years teaching the basic concepts and movement patterns to a host of age groups, including children. And that experience was absolutely essential in getting me to the point where I am now, where I can look at someone and intuit where the movements are lacking. But additionally, it took seeing how proper coaching, particularly the platform variety, is done in order that I could make the best use of my other coaching powers.

So let me take this opportunity once more to say that if you haven't been to a Rip seminar, you should because your training will not be complete without it.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

Absolutely.

But they at least know how they got strong.

And when we're talking about random strangers giving each-other advice online, that's about all we can hope for. Experienced coaches offering free advice are pretty rare. Bros tellin' it like it is and talking about their penises are much more common. So all we can do is judge by results.

Jeesuz Christ. It was meant to be a joke.

And not all us negroes go by "bro."

Edit: Reminds me of a joke...


A young man is walking through a small village one day and decides to stop by a bar and have a beer. He walks into a bar, and sees a grizzled old man, crying into his beer. Curious, the young man sits down and says, "Hey old timer, why the long face?"
The old man looks at him and points out the window, "See that dock out there? I built that dock with my own two hands, plank by plank, nail by nail, but do they call me McGregor the dockbuilder? No, no."
The old man continued, "And see that ship out there? I’ve been fishing these waters for my village for 35 years! But do they call me McGregor the fisherman? No, no."
The old man continued, "And see all the crops in the farms out there? I planted and have been farming those crops for my village for nearly 45 years! But do they call me McGregor the farmer? No, no."
The old man starts to cry again, "But you fuck one goat..."

[misspelledgeoff]

lulz! i love that joke, bro.

[nisora33]

Bumping in light of the ongoing newbie flood.

-s.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I'm not an internet trainer, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night! :D

Good post Stacey. If anything, I think you have pointed out that people should be wary of consuming too much advice on a forum. These moves should become second nature, and if you fret over every little form detail that will never hand. The mind can definitely get in the way of the body.

[cjangelo]

How about if they could include after your board status and idication that you had completed either the crossfit cert. or the new Starting Strength cert. with that info. E.G : Senior Member - SS Cert. or Just Rip Certified for either.


That's a possibility, steelerfan. That would have to be up to the mods, though.

The only draw back to that might be it could breed an atmosphere or feeling of elitism among some. I don't know, we all seem like relatively good boy and girls here, however

What the fuck is wrong with being elite? You've taken the classes, you've trained, you've coached before--you should be proud of your accomplishments and let other motherfuckers know that your opinion is more valid. Because it is.

The whole 'anti-elitism' thing in America encourages stupidity and fails to encourage achievement, two unforgivable sins in my book. Sorry, I'll stop.

[gordonrumble]

I think it might have been intended as the certs not necessarily making you more qualified than someone who knows their stuff but hasn't taken the cert. both types of people will be on these forums. It might be better if someone who has a history of valuable contributions on this forum gets these titles.

[PMDL]

What the fuck is wrong with being elite? You've taken the classes, you've trained, you've coached before--you should be proud of your accomplishments and let other motherfuckers know that your opinion is more valid. Because it is.

I want to see the person that's been lifting a year, taken one weekend certification, and has a more valid opinion on the matter than I do.

[nisora33]

What the fuck is wrong with being elite? You've taken the classes, you've trained, you've coached before--you should be proud of your accomplishments and let other motherfuckers know that your opinion is more valid. Because it is.


When I said that it could breed an atmosphere of elitism, I meant that the problem with one individual or group of people behaving as if they're "above others" might mean that someone who has only been doing the whole lifting/coaching thing might have their unique insights dismissed or discredited. On the other hand, those insights are surely valuable, but should probably be taken with a grain of salt just like much of the advice dolled out on the internet in general, or especially when weighed against the experiences of someone who has been doing it, say, a decade or more.

I believe that, regardless of whether someone's been doing this for 10, 20, 30 or only five years, he'll have a certain knack he can bring to the table, and as long as he acknowledges the limits of his experience and doesn't speak beyond it, he should be accorded some degree of respect.

Now, who's gonna determine what qualifies as "elite" experience? You? Me? The mods? I'm not sure exactly how you'd go about quantifying that, nor do I think it's necessarily useful to go that far. I can tell you that I am surely not elite, cjangelo, but I know bullshit when I smell it coming from others, more often than not. I'm not sure how to teach someone else to be able to do that, but it probably starts with exposure to good material like Rip's and some of the other respected names in the field of strength and conditioning brought up around here, so you can maybe develop a good "filter."

-Stacey

[Raskolnikov]

I guess that's the bitch about the internet. A world of information and the shared knowledge of millions at your fingertips but no built-in filter to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not much you can do about it.

[PMDL]

I guess that's the bitch about the internet. A world of information and the shared knowledge of millions at your fingertips but no built-in filter to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not much you can do about it.

Hell that was the entire basis of the book I wrote.