Every Gear Is Beautiful...In Its Own Way

[Gary Gibson]

You should probably add gear as you get stronger.

I was going to post on this anyway, but the response of some piss ant weakling to my the thread on belts really sent me over the edge.

Everything is "gear": proper shoes, neoprene knee sleeves, belt, suits, shirts...it's all "gear"...but that's okay.

When you get under a heavy barbell, you are performing an act that would never have occurred in "nature." You are engaging in congress with an artifact of industrial civilization. If you're bothering to put a barbell on your shoulders, don't think you're somehow purer because you eschew man-made polymers on your knees, hips or shoulders.

Here is the ugly truth...

A belt will help you get stronger faster when you hit 1.5-2x bodyweight (or 1-1.5xbodyweight for women).

Some knee protection in the form of sleeves or light wraps start to make sense around that time too.

A light squat suit or light bench shirt will actually help you as well as you get stronger.

A lot of internet "all raw bra!!!" jockeys will balk at that, but they probably aren't that strong and you probably shouldn't listen to them.

Barbell training is the best, most efficacious way to get stronger, but it ain't "natural".

Even proper benching, squatting and pulling subjects your body to forces it really wasn't designed to encounter, particularly when you start getting past piss ant weight.

There is nothing wrong with utilizing other industrial artifacts like sleeves, wraps, suits and shirts to protect your joints and make lifting more productive AND to get you stronger faster.

Please ignore morons who act like there's something mystical about using a barbell to the exclusion of supportive gear. Light gear allows you to use heavier weight which will cause faster adaptation.

"But my joints will get strong if I just expose them to the stress without support."

Absolutely true when you are weak. As you get stronger than average, some protection and support makes more and more sense.

Yes, people get strong without ever touching belts, wraps, sleeves, suits and shirts. But those people are probably much more suited to lifting than you are.

There is no shame in not being among the genetic elite with their superhuman joints. A little protective gear will allow you to train harder and longer and get stronger faster than just training totally raw because of some deluded sense of lifting purity.

This thread will probably fill up with the protest of barbell-only folk. I hope you don't listen to them. Odds are you don't need a light squat suit or bench shit yet, but you could probably use proper squat shoes with a slight heel or a good powerlifting belt. If you stick with it, a light bench shirt or squat suit would help too.

(The extreme multi-ply and canvas stuff is for specialists and they change the performance of the lift. That stuff is for very strong people and concern what is essentially a different sport and I'm not talking about them in this post.)

If you're struggling with a 315 SQ at under 200 lbs, then you could use a belt, but not a squat suit. Things change as you get stronger and it disgusts me to see people squatting under 315 and mocking belt usage and people squatting under 600 who mock the use of even light squat suits.

I used to be a weak piss ant who mocked powerlifters in general and gear in particular. Now I understand how incredibly strong powerlifting strength specialists really are and why they use gear. If you have your doubts, you're probably not nearly as strong as they are. Again, I used to be like you, but now I know better.

If you can't squat at least 600, then you don't need any gear beyond a belt and you're not really entitled to an opinion about it. If you squat under 400, then you probably need to invest in a belt and a decent pair of squat shoes; get stronger before you masturbate over relatively weak Oly types squatting 400-500 lbs in their undies, THEN form an opinion.

[knox]

Here's a question...at what point should you start wearing a belt to bench press? I notice (on youtube) that really strong benchers all wear belts. If you should wear a belt when your squat is 1.5-2x your bodyweight, what would you say is the cutoff for the bench press?

[msingh]

You should write the words barbell before every mention of strength. That way it's clear that any gear you can use while using a barbell is to optimise strength training for barbell work. And no one will dispute that for barbell training such aids are beneficial for sports dealing with barbells.

I think the problem is when you talk about strength it seems you mean generally and then people will argue with you because their interest in strength is not necessarily in the biggest squat or deadlift but perhaps strength in a general sense. The way rip trains novices not to be powerlifters or olympic lifters but to become generally stronger, that kind of strength. A lot of people have no interest in competitive barbell training and for them such aids are not so attractive. They're after a general kind of strength not just ones prowess in the gym. So my point is, people have different goals, why get worked up about it? The guy training to become generally stronger for his non-barbell sport or job will not care about certain gear that facilitates heavier weights with the barbell.

[h k]

Here's a question...at what point should you start wearing a belt to bench press? I notice (on youtube) that really strong benchers all wear belts. If you should wear a belt when your squat is 1.5-2x your bodyweight, what would you say is the cutoff for the bench press?

I usually wear a belt from the first warmup set to the end. Belt really functions mostly as a way to fortify your arch, which is a good thing if you arch.
I've both benched 180 kg with and without wrist wraps and belt while wearing a loose shirt, and the difference really is that you'll feel a lot better when you're wearing a belt and wrist wraps. They don't really help you to get more kilos, but make the weight more "bearable".
As for the use of equipment, Gary is right. When the weights get heavier and heavier in bench for example, it's a pretty good idea to wear a loose shirt. Heavier weights don't hurt my shoulders and you're still getting quite a workout, and your raw bench will go up simultaneously with your shirted bench. When I first used a shirt my raw bench was 130kg and I was doing 150 with a loose shirt. When I hit 180kg with the same shirt my raw bench had gotten up to 150kg without training it at all, all I was doing was shirted bench and floor presses with chains. These numbers might seem high but I'm built for benching, for longer armed guys the extra kilos out of a loose shirt aren't as high.

[confuzzl3don3]

And how would having a 400lb squat and 500lb deadlift not make you stronger outside the gym than a guy who can only squat 200 or so with a deadlift of only 300?

[msingh]

And how would having a 400lb squat and 500lb deadlift not make you stronger outside the gym than a guy who can only squat 200 or so with a deadlift of only 300?

The guy with the bigger squat would be stronger than the other one if neither of them had picked up a barbell. What does this tell you? Strong people are strong, and weak people are weak. You can increase your relative strength with barbells by taking up barbell training though, but it has no effect on an absolute level. Strong guys are strong even if they've never train with weights, and if they did, they'd be able to put up freaky numbers. Weak guys might work up to decent number through years of training but it doesnt make them strong on an absolute level -- a naturally strong untrained guy would still kick their ass in almost all general tests of strength except the specific ones where homeboy is trained and adapted for, and the naturally strong guy is not.

tldr: strength or weakness from training with barbells does not necessarily translate outside the gym; in both directions.

[knox]

Strong people are strong, and weak people are weak. You can increase your relative strength with barbells by taking up barbell training though, but it has no effect on an absolute level. Strong guys are strong even if they've never train with weights, and if they did, they'd be able to put up freaky numbers. Weak guys might work up to decent number through years of training but it doesnt make them strong on an absolute level -- a naturally strong untrained guy would still kick their ass in almost all things that matter involving strength.

What is this garbage? Do you hear what you're saying? Yes, strong people are strong and weak people are weak. But if a weak guy brings his squat up to 500lbs with years of training, he's not a weak guy anymore, he's a strong guy. Your logic is quite flawed.


tldr: strength or weakness from training with barbells does not necessarily translate outside the gym; in both directions

Jesus fucking christ. If the strength from training with barbells doesn't translate outside of the gym, why would we waste our time doing it? Try posting this drivel in Rip's forum and see how long it takes him to tear you a new asshole.

[msingh]

What is this garbage? Do you hear what you're saying? Yes, strong people are strong and weak people are weak. But if a weak guy brings his squat up to 500lbs with years of training, he's not a weak guy anymore, he's a strong guy. Your logic is quite flawed.
No wait. Consult the tables. A squat of 500 lb at a reasonable body weight is elite, a weak guy most probably wont ever attain that level no matter what he does in the gym. Realistically only a strong guy would attain a 500lb squat, so he was probably never weak to begin with. This stuff is genetic. A guy can train all day but he might never jump any higher than before went to all the trouble. Yes ripp guys will tell you that strength is 'the most fundamental quality' -- and it's true, but barbell strength != general strength. Even ripp will tell you that no matter where you take your powerclean or squat you wont jump any higher. So certain things are fixed by our genes, like athletic ability.



Jesus fucking christ. If the strength from training with barbells doesn't translate outside of the gym, why would we waste our time doing it? Try posting this drivel in Rip's forum and see how long it takes him to tear you a new asshole.

It can translate, the amount of which depends on what you do in the gym and what you do outside the gym. Guys get much bigger while lifting weights which can help them in their sport. Guys get stronger at lifting things which can help them in their sport. Guys can use the barbell to address weaknesses, and all sorts of things. Many guys train from vanity or insecurity. There are a million different reasons why people do it. It doesnt follow that just because many people do something that it achieves the goal they think they're trying to achieve. Witness the millions of people 'training' in gyms around the country, thinking they're getting stronger by doing leg curls and standing tricep kickbacks. That's no argument. There are guys like wrestlers who've never trained with a barbell that would nevertheless kick your ass in an arm wrestle even if you squatted 4 plates yesterday.

Curling the whole stack at the gym might make joe golds feel strong while squatting 4 plates might make bob wichita feel strong, but a guy who is naturally strong could kick both of their asses in many things involving strength. That's just how it is. A guy might struggle benching the bar and still express maximal strength at opening a nut in an engine easier than a guy who can bench 5 times as much. I've seen this in real life.

[misspelledgeoff]

msingh, where's the log post of your 12/4 workout? Did you train on 12/4? In fact, have you trained AT ALL since you started your log?

GTFO and go train. You do know that interwebz trolling is not part of novice programming, right?



The guy with the bigger squat would be stronger than the other one if neither of them had picked up a barbell. What does this tell you? Strong people are strong, and weak people are weak. You can increase your relative strength with barbells by taking up barbell training though, but it has no effect on an absolute level. Strong guys are strong even if they've never train with weights, and if they did, they'd be able to put up freaky numbers. Weak guys might work up to decent number through years of training but it doesnt make them strong on an absolute level -- a naturally strong untrained guy would still kick their ass in almost all general tests of strength except the specific ones where homeboy is trained and adapted for, and the naturally strong guy is not.

tldr: strength or weakness from training with barbells does not necessarily translate outside the gym; in both directions.

[Gary Gibson]

No wait. Consult the tables. A squat of 500 lb at a reasonable body weight is elite, a weak guy most probably wont ever attain that level no matter what he does in the gym. Realistically only a strong guy would attain a 500lb squat, so he was probably never weak to begin with. This stuff is genetic. A guy can train all day but he might never jump any higher than before went to all the trouble. Yes ripp guys will tell you that strength is 'the most fundamental quality' -- and it's true, but barbell strength != general strength. Even ripp will tell you that no matter where you take your powerclean or squat you wont jump any higher. So certain things are fixed by our genes, like athletic ability.




It can translate, the amount of which depends on what you do in the gym and what you do outside the gym. Guys get much bigger while lifting weights which can help them in their sport. Guys get stronger at lifting things which can help them in their sport. Guys can use the barbell to address weaknesses, and all sorts of things. Many guys train from vanity or insecurity. There are a million different reasons why people do it. It doesnt follow that just because many people do something that it achieves the goal they think they're trying to achieve. Witness the millions of people 'training' in gyms around the country, thinking they're getting stronger by doing leg curls and standing tricep kickbacks. That's no argument. There are guys like wrestlers who've never trained with a barbell that would nevertheless kick your ass in an arm wrestle even if you squatted 4 plates yesterday.

Curling the whole stack at the gym might make joe golds feel strong while squatting 4 plates might make bob wichita feel strong, but a guy who is naturally strong could kick both of their asses in many things involving strength. That's just how it is. A guy might struggle benching the bar and still express maximal strength at opening a nut in an engine easier than a guy who can bench 5 times as much. I've seen this in real life.

Singh,

You are clearly stronger and more athletic than I am with my four plates. That I am half your bodyweight with triple your squat merely reflects my unnatural obsession with barbell training. That I can jump twice as high as you can is merely a corollary of the same reason my dick is twice as long and thick as yours, i.e. I'm black and it's all purely genetic.

Good luck with your training.

[msingh]

Im trying to explain why strength means different things to different people. How do you compare a skinny 50kg olympian who can C&J some stupid amount of weight over his head to a 150kg powerlifter who drags a heavy barbell up his thighs? They are both strong in different ways. Even when it comes to training with a barbell there are different definitions of strength and power. Outside the gym there are many tests of strength where barbell strength has little or no effect. There was a story about a guy who challenged a bunch of big strong guys at the arnold to press a kettlebell overhead and they couldnt do it!

[h k]

And those big strong guys could've challenged him to do some spesific lift that they've done and the kettleball guy hasn't, and the outcome would've been the same. That guy, Pavel, had been training with kettleballs for years where as most of the challenged guys hadn't touched them ever.

[msingh]

It doesnt matter, dont you know? Barbell training makes you strong in all facets of life, according to these guys strength is the fundamental capacity. if you get strong with a barbell you get strong at all things physical (this is actually what justin lascek wrote in the CFWF writeup).

I went tenpin bowling with some guys at work. Skinny 5 foot something, 45 kg dude was hitting the pins harder than bigger guys and i bet he would be happy to squat 50kg. One guy is big and strong at 6'4 @ 110kg and he wasnt hitting them as hard. There was an interview somewhere of a lumberjack (maybe 70sbig.com) who said his toughest competitor was a small skinny guy with a much better technique. He cut the wood just as deep as this huge strong barbell trained behomoth being interviewed.

Michael jordan was 190 lb and he had no problem dealing with much bigger and barbell trained opponents. His weight training even in later years consisted of dumbell work for the upper body. But according to some people here if only he tooks his squat up to 400, he'd been much stronger in his profession or something.

[Gary Gibson]

Im trying to explain why strength means different things to different people. How do you compare a skinny 50kg olympian who can C&J some stupid amount of weight over his head to a 150kg powerlifter who drags a heavy barbell up his thighs? They are both strong in different ways. Even when it comes to training with a barbell there are different definitions of strength and power. Outside the gym there are many tests of strength where barbell strength has little or no effect. There was a story about a guy who challenged a bunch of big strong guys at the arnold to press a kettlebell overhead and they couldnt do it!

You fucking idiot.

I've tried to avoid the gangbang dogpile that you invite, but you are getting annoying.

I've out-deadlifted much bigger Oly lifters even when I was a skinnier and weaker fuck than I am now. There are skinny weak fucks who can outjump me, but I am still stronger and can beat them up. They may be able to win a game of tennis or pingpong while I may be able to outwrestle or outbox them. Who's the better athlete then? There are a couple of 100 kilo Oly lifters I know who can out-clean and jerk me, but I pull more and squat as much at a much lighter 75 kilo. Who's the better athlete? Maybe they are, but the 75 kilo Oly lifters I know who aren't the Eastern Bloc genetic elite whose dicks you suck can't bench, pull or even squat what I can and I'm pretty sure I could beat those guys up. Again, who's the better athlete?

(I've also out-bowled two dozen other men with dozens of strikes in a row because I was fuckload stronger than everyone else. I just kept hurling the bowling ball as hard as I could and kept getting strike after strike.)

I don't mean this as an insult, but you're a pudgy, weak whiner. You complain about the methods and advice offered here and only post to criticize.

You'll probably get mad at this post of mine, but I suspect in a couple of years you'll clean up your diet and train like a fucking animal and get really strong. I was a weak, skinny internet ninny once. I like to think I've redeemed myself by now. I like to think that you will too.

[msingh]

Ok, jeez, i thought i'd give a counterargument, i dont enjoy being insulted on the internet either. im going to go work on my press, have fun agreeing with each other.

[h k]

There's strength and then there's sports spesific strength. Barbell movements do not transfer instantly to high skill movements, a good example is that I'm relatively strong but my technique is terrible in shotput, so much weaker guys throw it further than I do, but as time goes by and I train shotput, my technique gets better and I can utilize my strength better and that leads into faster progress compared to a person who needs to better his technique while getting stronger aswell.

Then there's movements that do not require skill or movement spesific strength, like deadlift and deadlift related movements so that if you have a strong deadlift, you'll be able to haul up heavy weights no matter what kind of implement you're hauling up.

That's only for strength. Of course strong people who train only the powerlifts for example aren't as explosive as weightlifters who can get a lot bigger weights overhead than their powerlifting friends who might be a lot stronger in squatting and heavy pulling movements, but the thing is that if you're strong in the powerlifts, you'll be able to progress by just getting better in technique and increasing your ability to utilize the strength you have from the powerlifts into explosive strength required by the olympic lifts, and that leads to faster progress than weak guys again, because you have one less critical component developed already.

[nisora33]

Singh,

You are clearly stronger and more athletic than I am with my four plates. That I am half your bodyweight with triple your squat merely reflects my unnatural obsession with barbell training. That I can jump twice as high as you can is merely a corollary of the same reason my dick is twice as long and thick as yours, i.e. I'm black and it's all purely genetic.

Good luck with your training.

Aaaah, starting to feel like home around here. Jesus that was an awesome post, Gary. We've officially gotten into "my dick is bigger than yours" territory.

[coldfire]

Msingh, I agree with Gary. You are an idiot, your logic sucks and you are trolling again.

[nisora33]

...i dont enjoy being insulted on the internet either...

Stick around, you'll grow a thicker skin. And you might learn a thing or two in the process.

[Ryan Dell Whitley]

And how would having a 400lb squat and 500lb deadlift not make you stronger outside the gym than a guy who can only squat 200 or so with a deadlift of only 300?

I have better lifts than your example, and I don't use any equipment. So what is your point?

[Webbie]

Michael jordan was 190 lb and he had no problem dealing with much bigger and barbell trained opponents. His weight training even in later years consisted of dumbell work for the upper body. But according to some people here if only he tooks his squat up to 400, he'd been much stronger in his profession or something.

Michael Jordan put on 30+lbs of muscle mainly in his upper body and continued to add/gain for his last 6 yrs or so...know what happened...he slowed down...dramatically. The commentators went from saying "one of the most amazing athletes I've ever seen" to "he's so wiley and smart, will to win, experienced" I grew up in NC so I saw him play since he was a skinny kid that could jump out of the gym...had he only performed the squat;I remember seeing a video of his workout routine and it was all upperbody...He slowed down from weight not age. He's still the GOAT, but I think he could've been better.

[misspelledgeoff]

msingh's workout:

A:
3s x 5r of finding excuses not to squat
3s x 5r of whining about SS making him fat
5s x 3r of inflammatory, illogical and just fucking stupid posts on teh interweb

B:
just repeat workout A

[davew]

Ok, jeez, i thought i'd give a counterargument, i dont enjoy being insulted on the internet either.

There's nothing wrong with disagreement. But you gotta be kidding me with the following:



I went tenpin bowling with some guys at work. Skinny 5 foot something, 45 kg dude was hitting the pins harder than bigger guys and i bet he would be happy to squat 50kg. One guy is big and strong at 6'4 @ 110kg and he wasnt hitting them as hard.

Bowling as a demonstration of strength? Seriously?


The guy with the bigger squat would be stronger than the other one if neither of them had picked up a barbell. What does this tell you? Strong people are strong, and weak people are weak.

Did you actually need an example to conclude this?


You can increase your relative strength with barbells by taking up barbell training though, but it has no effect on an absolute level.Did you think about this before you posted it? If a 200 lb guy brings his squat from 200 to 400 at the same bodyweight, he got relatively stronger. However, how is he not absolutely stronger in the process?


Strong guys are strong even if they've never train with weights, and if they did, they'd be able to put up freaky numbers. Weak guys might work up to decent number through years of training but it doesnt make them strong on an absolute level -- a naturally strong untrained guy would still kick their ass in almost all general tests of strength except the specific ones where homeboy is trained and adapted for, and the naturally strong guy is not.It seems like you're making an argument against barbell training and getting stronger, is this correct? If it is, you're doing so based off an inevitable statistic: that some people will be much stronger (with or without training) than others. That's just a goofy way to approach the issue.

[coldfire]

Kyle and Msingh both need this book:

http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/0128-1/%7B136CE181-A451-4904-BBBD-8F9981AB25E2%7DImg100.jpg

[coldfire]

Im trying to explain why strength means different things to different people. How do you compare a skinny 50kg olympian who can C&J some stupid amount of weight over his head to a 150kg powerlifter who drags a heavy barbell up his thighs? They are both strong in different ways. Even when it comes to training with a barbell there are different definitions of strength and power. Outside the gym there are many tests of strength where barbell strength has little or no effect. There was a story about a guy who challenged a bunch of big strong guys at the arnold to press a kettlebell overhead and they couldnt do it!

The olympic lifter has more power, obviously. Pretty simple, eh? What tests are these?
The story about the guy with kettlebells is about BODYBUILDERS. FUCKING BODYBUILDERS.

[George Noble]

lol who cares what equipment other people use? And who cares what people are saying on the internet? I don't think anyone "should" use a squat suit, or anyone "should not" use knee sleeves. People can do what they want.

[knox]

A squat of 500 lb at a reasonable body weight is elite, a weak guy most probably wont ever attain that level no matter what he does in the gym.

And yet, plenty of former "weak" guys on this site have done just that.


barbell strength != general strength

So you can't see the direct carryover between deadlifting a loaded barbell off the ground and picking up a couch? You can't see how pushing a heavy barbell over your head will allow you push heavy objects over your head? I mean, come on. This isn't rocket science.


Witness the millions of people 'training' in gyms around the country, thinking they're getting stronger by doing leg curls and standing tricep kickbacks.

We're not talking about doing leg curls and standing tricep kickbacks. We're talking about moving heavy barbells. Moving heavy things makes you strong. Strong = the ability to move heavy shit. Being able to bowl better than others ! = strong. You're confusing STRENGTH with SKILL. If a powerlifter sucks at tennis, he's still going to have a shitty weak stroke. Just like with anything. Technique still matters. Duh.


There are guys like wrestlers who've never trained with a barbell that would nevertheless kick your ass in an arm wrestle even if you squatted 4 plates yesterday.

Yeah. There are some people who are naturally quite strong without specifically training to be like that. So what? This does not prove your point. Maybe if I squatted 5 plates yesterday I could kick his ass. In the end, this comes down to strength, not training. If I have trained for years and am still weaker than this guy, he will beat me. If I have trained for years and am stronger than this guy, I will beat him - even though, with only minimal training, he could potentially be stronger than me. Strong = strong.

[knox]

Oh and coldfire - nice find on that book :D

[Mr.City]

I don't understand the argument here. I got your first post, Gary; gear become necessary after the weight get higher and higher. However, someone said something about the strength in the gym not carrying over to other things? Strength is general; it makes everything better.

I remember taking a bike ride after a month and a half on SS and my uncle, who was with me, had trouble keeping. Also, I always had trouble riding one or no handed. Now it wasn't that bad. Strength makes everything better: bowling, fighting, moving furniture, sex.

I suggest some people here read an article by Rip titled, "Strong Enough." (not the book) It discusses the fundamentals of strength versus technique.

[George Noble]

If you can't squat at least 600, then you don't need any gear beyond a belt and you're not really entitled to an opinion about it.
Do you squat at least 600? Because you sure as shit seem to have an opinion.

[coldfire]

If you can't squat at least 600, then you don't need any gear beyond a belt and you're not really entitled to an opinion about it. If you squat under 400, then you probably need to invest in a belt and a decent pair of squat shoes; get stronger before you masturbate over relatively weak Oly types squatting 400-500 lbs in their undies, THEN form an opinion.

Sorry Gary, but you are just bashing Oly lifters. Plenty of them squat raw more than powerlifters squat with gear.

I understand your point, but you sound kind of angry about it.

[Ryan Dell Whitley]

If you can't squat at least 600, then you don't need any gear beyond a belt and you're not really entitled to an opinion about it. If you squat under 400, then you probably need to invest in a belt and a decent pair of squat shoes; get stronger before you masturbate over relatively weak Oly types squatting 400-500 lbs in their undies, THEN form an opinion.

Can you squat 600? Your last video had you squatting 405. So your opinion doesn't matter, right?

You seem to have an inordinate amount of time to devote towards telling others how fucked up they are for not training exactly as you do, regardless of their goals. You spend much more time talking about gear, how much your fecal matter weighs, and insulting people who disagree with you than you do about actually getting stronger. Thanks for imparting your infinite wisdom upon us. Feel free to shut-the-fuck-up anytime you feel like it.

[pauld]

Gary, thanks for posting and don't let the silliness stop you. As an up-and-coming lifter, I find your advice useful. I like the idea of lifting as "raw" as I can, but thanks to your posts I have a better understanding of why knee sleeves and belts are as important as my do-wins and chalk, especially as my lifts are getting heavier. I'm in this thing for the long haul and would like to keep all my bits and pieces happy and injury-free for as long as possible while making the best gains possible.

[George Noble]

Can you squat 600? Your last video had you squatting 405. So your opinion doesn't matter, right?

You seem to have an inordinate amount of time to devote towards telling others how fucked up they are for not training exactly as you do, regardless of their goals. You spend much more time talking about gear, how much your fecal matter weighs, and insulting people who disagree with you than you do about actually getting stronger. Thanks for imparting your infinite wisdom upon us. Feel free to shut-the-fuck-up anytime you feel like it.
Hahahahahahahaha.

[TomC]

I'm surprised everyone is ganging up on msingh here. I don't think his point was that inflammatory and I don't think he deserves to be called pudgy or weak for rather calmly stating his case. Whether he can lift a lot of weight is not necessarily an indication that his argument was wrong.

It looks like there are a couple of ideas presented in this thread:


Lifting makes you stronger and the strength obtained via barbells is useful outside of the gym.
Any form of gear can be a useful training aid if applied properly and can help a trainee become stronger.
There are naturally strong and athletic people that do everything well, including lift barbells even when they have never trained with weights, or used gear.
In some activities technique can trump strength.


I think all of these statements have merit and have evidentiary support. Msingh seemed to primarily be arguing the last two, but I don't see that any of these points are really in opposition to any of the others.

As an aside, some people can and have increased their vertical jumps through weight training. How much is somewhat dependent on genetics, but so is everything else. I think almost every human physical trait (including height) can be trained and/or manipulated through environmental variables. With, height, however, you have a more limited time window in which to affect that.

[misspelledgeoff]

TomC, because he is a troll and he doesn't train and he makes no fucking sense. That's why.

RDL, insulting people who do not train and yet still feel compelled to post`fucking nonsense is a valuable service to this unmoderated board. And if your delicate sensibilities are offended by the discussion of dump PRs, then don't read the fucking thread.

[George Noble]

Criticising the rational thought process (or lack thereof) of a 400 lb. squatter who posts an essay worth of opinion and then says you have to squat 600 lbs to have an opinion is equally valuable a service.

[Sami]

Surely that was a typo?

[George Noble]

You think he meant 400? It would be just such a massive coincidence that the requisite weight to have an opinion is within 5 lbs of the weight Gary has just squatted that I didn't even entertain the possibility.

My opinion is safe either way, of course :)

And don't call me Shirley.

[msingh]

And yet, plenty of former "weak" guys on this site have done just that. They're adapted for certain barbell work. That's all. If you took such a guy and put him against a naturally strong untrained guy and had them competing in say lat-pull downs, how much of that big squat will help you then? I have tripled my starting squat but i'm still no closer to doing a proper pullup than I was when I started. Do you think when i have a squat 5xoriginal-squat, that I'll be strong enough to do pullups then? It doesnt matter what I bench or press or clean, I will lose in a pullup contest EVERY time to a naturally strong guy who can jump on a bar and belt out 5 clean reps without having trained for it. Until i start doing pullups (become adapted from it), i'll lose every single time. So what use is deadlift or squat strength when the simplest tests of strength like jumping up and grabbing a bar and pulling yourself up do not have barbell strength translating to them. And before you disagree I once put the same question to rip, "will having a big squat suddenly one day allow me to do a pullup?" -- he answered in typical rip fashion, "no you fool it wont".



So you can't see the direct carryover between deadlifting a loaded barbell off the ground and picking up a couch? You can't see how pushing a heavy barbell over your head will allow you push heavy objects over your head? I mean, come on. This isn't rocket science.

You think it does, but it doesnt have to. In real life i've had several such tests. There was the case of moving 500 or so 40kg boxes, where a smaller, completely barbell untrained guy kicked my ass, despite the fact that I had a bigger squat and deadlift than him. Another time when we were moving a heavy table a distance of 20m, I was lifting it with an untrained guy and he kept up just fine, but I had to put it down a few times because my training is optimised for the 5 rep mark. Another time I was shovelling sand and was good for 5 quick strong reps but then had to take a long rest, when my weak as piss 50kg sister kept shovelling despite being completely untrained. I've seen a old man who was incapable of benching the bar open a nut while servicing a car when all my so-called barbell trained strength wasnt up to the match.



We're not talking about doing leg curls and standing tricep kickbacks. We're talking about moving heavy barbells. Moving heavy things makes you strong. Strong = the ability to move heavy shit. Being able to bowl better than others ! = strong. You're confusing STRENGTH with SKILL. If a powerlifter sucks at tennis, he's still going to have a shitty weak stroke. Just like with anything. Technique still matters. Duh.
And yet in almost all cases strength is expressed with technique. Even lifting a couch has good technique and bad technique. Fighting is all about technique. Taking a skinny uncordinated guy and making him squat 400 does not make him in any way a more harder to kill person. Barbell training is the only activity where it doesnt matter if you are left handed or right handed, it means nothing to the barbell. There is almost no application of fine motor skills, which is different from dodging a punch and throwing one, or almost any real life activity where you need to express strength.



Yeah. There are some people who are naturally quite strong without specifically training to be like that. So what? This does not prove your point. Maybe if I squatted 5 plates yesterday I could kick his ass. In the end, this comes down to strength, not training. If I have trained for years and am still weaker than this guy, he will beat me. If I have trained for years and am stronger than this guy, I will beat him - even though, with only minimal training, he could potentially be stronger than me. Strong = strong.

Make that case. How does barbell strength carry over to activities outside barbell training? I'm still just as strong or (just as weak) in my sport as I was since I started bb training. IF anything im slower and sluggish now that since I started. Where is this extra strength and power going to come from? Unless i do a valsalva and squat down in my sport, my squat means nothing, i've observed, it simply doesnt carry over.

[George Noble]

I can't believe this drivel is getting in the way of my hilarious Airplane line.

[tennisgod]

I think your points are valid, msingh.

Another look at this is with respect to injuries... Someone said that Rip said we will all train ourselves to the point of injuries as our weights get heavier and heavier... and this frightens me.
I got into SS because I was getting weaker and fatter... there is no doubt I am stronger but I have got a few nagging injuries from lifting which weren't there before. The most troublesome injury is a somewhat-painful left forearm which really affects my tennis game (I'm left-handed). The irony is that I wanted to improve my game by lifting.

[Platus]

Make that case. How does barbell strength carry over to activities outside barbell training? I'm still just as strong or (just as weak) in my sport as I was since I started bb training. IF anything im slower and sluggish now that since I started. Where is this extra strength and power going to come from? Unless i do a valsalva and squat down in my sport, my squat means nothing, i've observed, it simply doesnt carry over.I have trouble believing that strength training for sports is categorically ineffective.

I am a sample size of one, but here is what I have noticed:

1) While on starting strength my work capacity has increased
2) my vertical jump has gone up about 2 inches (it sucked when I started and it still sucks, but less so)
3) I have an easier time catching waves when I surf
4) I have an easier time moving heavy things and carrying equipment at work
5) I can maintain faster speeds for longer when cycling

These activities are casual, non-competitive events for me, but they indicate to me that barbell training has useful carryover.

[RoryT]

Why would squats make you better at chinups? Are you fucking serious? Just because the squat is the main exercise we talk about, and is widely considered the most important exercise doesn't mean it will make everything better. If you just do SS, you do squats, deadlifts, presses, bench presses, and cleans. Usually chin-ups and pull-ups are thrown in as well. Nobody said doing just squats would make you better at chin-ups, you have to train your whole damn body!

If you can't beat untrained people at moving boxes, you are failing in some aspect of your training. I've helped people move later in the day after a hard workout, and there's no question about who could carry heavier shit up flights of stairs.

Of course you don't squat down and use valsalva in your sport, but all of the muscles in your body should be bigger and stronger allowing you to execute whatever you do in your sport better. This is extremely basic, and makes good intuitive sense to everybody except you. It has also been shown to happen over and over again. Your body adapts to the stress of the barbell training by increasing your muscles' ability to produce force, and force production is useful. It doesn't increase your ability to produce force against a barbell specifically, it's just more force production NO MATTER WHAT.

Maybe I'm just one of these naturally strong supermen that can carry more boxes or something, I don't know.

[Mr.City]

They're adapted for certain barbell work. That's all. If you took such a guy and put him against a naturally strong untrained guy and had them competing in say lat-pull downs, how much of that big squat will help you then? I have tripled my starting squat but i'm still no closer to doing a proper pullup than I was when I started. Do you think when i have a squat 5xoriginal-squat, that I'll be strong enough to do pullups then? It doesnt matter what I bench or press or clean, I will lose in a pullup contest EVERY time to a naturally strong guy who can jump on a bar and belt out 5 clean reps without having trained for it. Until i start doing pullups (become adapted from it), i'll lose every single time. So what use is deadlift or squat strength when the simplest tests of strength like jumping up and grabbing a bar and pulling yourself up do not have barbell strength translating to them. And before you disagree I once put the same question to rip, "will having a big squat suddenly one day allow me to do a pullup?" -- he answered in typical rip fashion, "no you fool it wont".




You think it does, but it doesnt have to. In real life i've had several such tests. There was the case of moving 500 or so 40kg boxes, where a smaller, completely barbell untrained guy kicked my ass, despite the fact that I had a bigger squat and deadlift than him. Another time when we were moving a heavy table a distance of 20m, I was lifting it with an untrained guy and he kept up just fine, but I had to put it down a few times because my training is optimised for the 5 rep mark. Another time I was shovelling sand and was good for 5 quick strong reps but then had to take a long rest, when my weak as piss 50kg sister kept shovelling despite being completely untrained. I've seen a old man who was incapable of benching the bar open a nut while servicing a car when all my so-called barbell trained strength wasnt up to the match.



And yet in almost all cases strength is expressed with technique. Even lifting a couch has good technique and bad technique. Fighting is all about technique. Taking a skinny uncordinated guy and making him squat 400 does not make him in any way a more harder to kill person. Barbell training is the only activity where it doesnt matter if you are left handed or right handed, it means nothing to the barbell. There is almost no application of fine motor skills, which is different from dodging a punch and throwing one, or almost any real life activity where you need to express strength.




Make that case. How does barbell strength carry over to activities outside barbell training? I'm still just as strong or (just as weak) in my sport as I was since I started bb training. IF anything im slower and sluggish now that since I started. Where is this extra strength and power going to come from? Unless i do a valsalva and squat down in my sport, my squat means nothing, i've observed, it simply doesnt carry over.


Jesus God man. What you're saying flies in the face of the entire body of athletic training. How are you able to develop a strong bench or squat not have that carry over in some way. Muscles function the same way both in and out of the gym.

As for squats not increasing your pullups, why would a lower body exercise strengthen an upper body exercise. Besides, if I remember correctly, you weigh around 240ish, which is obviously a handicap in a bodyweight exercise.

Your shoveling anthology is blizzare. Are you getting winded? Are your muscles fatiguing? When you were moving those boxes, were you having a race? If anything, most of your problems seem to stem from a lack of conditioning.

Also, if strength doesn't play a role in fighting and it is all technique based, would you pick a fight with a 300 lb man? And no application of motor skills? What about the oly lifts? You make it sound like the man who can squat 500 and deadlift 600 is a helpless shell of a man outside the gym.

[George Noble]

We do strongman stuff in the gym sometimes. We have 75 kg (empty) farmer's walk implements and a 96 kg anvil. My first time with the farmer's walk things I was able to carry them a decent way, with 150 kg total weight. Same with the anvil. Do you think I was able to either of these all my life, even when my max deadlift was in the low 100s? Hopefully you're not THAT dense, and you will realise you were wrong so that we can get back to our not-so-witty one liners making fun of Gary's faux-hardcore original post.

[msingh]

Also, if strength doesn't play a role in fighting and it is all technique based, would you pick a fight with a 300 lb man? And no application of motor skills? What about the oly lifts? You make it sound like the man who can squat 500 and deadlift 600 is a helpless shell of a man outside the gym.

Ofcourse strength pays a role. But it's not necessarily barbell strength man. Strong guys are strong and weak guys are weak, irrespective of their experience with barbells. I know plenty of strong guys who could kick 5'5 guys here who squat 400-500, just because they're big and strong naturally. Look at the way people here do deadlifts, they raise the fucker up and then drop it fast. When i do my deadlifts i lower the bastard down because I dont want to ruin my shitty rubber coated plates. My not quite 3 plate deadlift is more 'real world applicable' than a correctly executed 4 plate one, just because I lower the bastard down. So what? It doesnt matter. YOu dont pick up a couch and drop it, you pick it up and HOLD on to it. How many people here do that with deadlifts? That's the hard part, not picking it up.

[Platus]

Strong guys are strong and weak guys are weak, irrespective of their experience with barbells.This statement leaves me with an epistemological question: How does one differentiate a 'strong guy' from a 'weak guy'? How can one be 'strong' outside of a context for demonstrating strength?

[Mr.City]

"Barbell strength?" And now couch lowering? You don't drop because it doesn't weigh as much as a heavy deadlift. Your definition of weak and strong is odd. The man who deadlift 750 lbs is weaker than the man who can deadlift 900 lbs, however both are still strong. One is just not as strong.

And are you saying that there who people who have never touched a barbell in their life that can overpower a man with a 400-500 squat?

[Gary Gibson]

Do you squat at least 600? Because you sure as shit seem to have an opinion.

Exactly my point. I don't get to criticize much stronger men who use gear. Seems a lot of my fellow internet ninjas who squat 225 like to criticize people who squat 500+ with just a belt and 700 lbs in gear. My sure as shit opinion is that they shouldn't do that.

[Scrofula]

Ofcourse strength pays a role. But it's not necessarily barbell strength man. Strong guys are strong and weak guys are weak, irrespective of their experience with barbells.
I'm kind of confused by the point you're making. Of course there are people who are naturally strong and people who are naturally weak, and no amount of training will turn someone at the extreme weak end of the bell curve into a superman. But he'd still be stronger than he would have been if he didn't train.

If you want to figure out how much your barbell strength helps your sport/real-world performance, you should compare you performance now to your own performance prior to training. Comparing yourself to other people is not as informative, because they may have superior technique, conditioning etc. Increased strength doesn't completely negate all other factors. But if you keep technique constant and increase strength, your performance will improve. You still might be beaten by weaker people with vastly superior technique, or vastly stronger people with inferior technique. That doesn't mean your performance hasn't improved.

Your claim seems to be that strength training has no carryover at all to any other activity. This is an extraordinary claim, and requires more evidence than 'I saw some skinny old guy who was good at opening nuts'.

You do raise the valid point that any barbell exercise is a skill that you can adapt to in ways other than getting stronger, and it's not an entirely fair test of strength if one of the people being tested has practiced it more than the other. A fair test would be some movement that both people are equally familiar with*. But there's still an obvious correlation between how strong you are and how much you lift.

*Of course, the very act of becoming familiar with the movement might make you stronger. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle of strength testing.

[Gary Gibson]

Sorry Gary, but you are just bashing Oly lifters. Plenty of them squat raw more than powerlifters squat with gear.

I understand your point, but you sound kind of angry about it.

Angry? Moi?

[Gary Gibson]

Can you squat 600? Your last video had you squatting 405. So your opinion doesn't matter, right?

You seem to have an inordinate amount of time to devote towards telling others how fucked up they are for not training exactly as you do, regardless of their goals. You spend much more time talking about gear, how much your fecal matter weighs, and insulting people who disagree with you than you do about actually getting stronger. Thanks for imparting your infinite wisdom upon us. Feel free to shut-the-fuck-up anytime you feel like it.

Are you hitting on me?

[tennisgod]

It is true that we become one-dimensional and that the body does adapt solely to the stresses associated with barbell lifting. i.e. my lifts are still increasing on SS, yet I have trouble lifting my 50kg son in the pool due to a sore right wrist, I recently have had trouble playing my beloved tennis due to sore left forearm, and my right shoulder slightly hurts when tucking-in my shirt... but, hey, as long as my lifts are increasing.

... so am I stronger? Of course. Am I more useful? Debatable...

... but I'm old (50).

[George Noble]

Lifting weights makes you three-dimensional. See: http://70sbig.com

[knox]

There was the case of moving 500 or so 40kg boxes, where a smaller, completely barbell untrained guy kicked my ass, despite the fact that I had a bigger squat and deadlift than him. Another time when we were moving a heavy table a distance of 20m, I was lifting it with an untrained guy and he kept up just fine, but I had to put it down a few times because my training is optimised for the 5 rep mark. Another time I was shovelling sand and was good for 5 quick strong reps but then had to take a long rest, when my weak as piss 50kg sister kept shovelling despite being completely untrained.

Last time I checked, you were a 245 lb man with a squat of 230 lbs. Relative to your bodyweight you are quite weak, meaning that you are basically just a fat guy. This is probably why you had so much trouble moving boxes and shoveling sand. It's not reasonable for you to come to the conclusion that barbell training does not have real world application purely based on the fact that you have been training improperly for two years and are still weak.

[Mr.City]

Let's not turn this into a "bash msingh" thread.

[Rorschach]

Pretty sure I'm just rehashing what people have said here already, but oh well.

"Strong people are strong, and weak people are weak."

OK, yes, but good exercise and good nutrition turn weak people into strong people.
Just because there are people who are strong without barbell training, doesn't mean that weak people can't become just as strong.

There are many many cases of weak people becoming strong. I'm far from being what I would consider strong yet, but I was definitely a weak guy when I started training.
After a year of training, I've put 120kg on my deadlift, and 90kg on my squat. Have I noticed carryover to "real life" activities? You bet!
If I didn't get any real life benefit from barbell training, I would be very unlikely to continue.

It sounds to me like this is just a mindset you have. Thinking "I'm not strong as some people who are naturally gifted, and I never will be" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You may need a genetic advantage and to take drugs to get a world record, but any normal person can become an elite lifter if they train hard.

[confuzzl3don3]

You may need a genetic advantage and to take drugs to get a world record, but any normal person can become an elite lifter if they train hard.

Don't know if you mean elite in the sense of Ripp's "elite", but if you are, i quote from PP, "far less than 1% of all trainees regardless of training history reach this level" (in regards to elite level of barbell training).

[Rorschach]

Do or can? ;)

But no, personal definition.

[knox]

Good point, confuzz. Novice and intermediate progression is relatively straight forward, but after these stages training gets quite complicated, and I think it's pretty unlikely that someone who doesn't, at that point, start competing in a strength sport will progress a whole lot further. BUT I would agree that anyone can get through the intermediate level with proper training.

Edit: I didn't see Rorschach's new post. I'm using the definition of "novice" as someone who can progress every workout and "intermediate" as someone who can progress every week.

[Kyle Aaron]

Kyle and Msingh both need this book:
I'm more interested in that "evidence" stuff.

I posted pictures and results of people who trained without belts.

This hurt Gibson's feelings, and he started talking about his penis. I didn't know he was such a sensitive soul. I'll try to remember to send him some personal care products from The Body Shop for his birthday.

Seems a lot of my fellow internet ninjas who squat 225 like to criticize people who squat 500+ with just a belt and 700 lbs in gear. My sure as shit opinion is that they shouldn't do that.
I'm not criticising them. You may recall that I began by saying that your lifts were very good. Perhaps you were busy tabbing between porno sites while typing on here one-handed so you missed it. I'll restate it in capitals so you don't miss it again.

I THINK YOU ARE STRONG.

And this is a good thing. And admirable, and obviously due to your efforts. However, since other people obtain similar or better results without a belt, it is not clear that a belt is necessary to get strong.

I'll put it clearly again for the more challenged members of the audience.

BELT NOT BAD. BUT BELT MAYBE NOT MUCH GOOD, NEITHER.

Alternately, just ignore all those guys lifting as much or more than you without belts, and keep talking about your penis.

None of this ought to be construed as endorsing msingh's comments, since I have no fucking idea what he is on about.

[Rorschach]

Some people need to relax, and stop taking things so personally.

That said, I see no benefits to training without a belt. Sure, you can make progress without one, but you'll make better gains with one.

If you don't want to use a belt, then that's your choice. However, there's no argument for squatting without a belt beyond personal preference. A decent belt helps you brace your abdominals; it doesn't make lifting easier, it allows you to work harder and get stronger.
Just because a small group of people don't use a belt and do OK (not amazingly, just OK) doesn't change that fact. I have no doubt that they'd lift better belted, and probably improve their technique while they're at it.

The whole concept of barbell training is do exercise with aids to improve your strength when you don't have aids. Otherwise you're just doing body-weight training which wont take you very far.

[TomC]

Are you hitting on me?

This was a truly classic response.

[drlvegas]

Are you hitting on me?

Hey, after this:



Singh,

You are clearly stronger and more athletic than I am with my four plates. That I am half your bodyweight with triple your squat merely reflects my unnatural obsession with barbell training. That I can jump twice as high as you can is merely a corollary of the same reason my dick is twice as long and thick as yours, i.e. I'm black and it's all purely genetic.

Good luck with your training.

What the hell did you expect?

[DeepBlue]

This thread is funny as hell.

MSingh:
The squat will make you stronger in lifting/pushing. Not directly pulling.

If you think the deadlift will not improve your chins/pullups, you're not thinking straight. Similarly with your press and bench press, the synergists (e.g. biceps) will get stronger.

Your personal examples: box shifting - you have no cardio capacity. No one said training barbell will help this much. The same with shovelling sand. But I bet that if you hadn't done any barbell training, you'd have been wiped out EVEN FASTER.

Re the old man... technique and max effort. I bet my father couldn't lift/press what I am today. But sure as hell he's stronger than me. 25 years of working with tools in a factory, climbing ladders, etc. means he has strong arms through more planes of movement than me.

Crazy arguments. This so called "strong guy" is a figment of your imagination so you don't fee like such a pussy. Anyone who is "strong" trains, even if they are one of the few genetic freaks. It just might not be barbell training.

Technique counts for a lot. It is the application of strength in the right amounts to an activity. If that activity requires a lot of force then it doesn't matter how good your technique is, it ain't happening.

[stronger]

Michael jordan was 190 lb and he had no problem dealing with much bigger and barbell trained opponents. His weight training even in later years consisted of dumbell work for the upper body. But according to some people here if only he tooks his squat up to 400, he'd been much stronger in his profession or something.

you want to argue that it wouldn't have helped him?

[stronger]

Msingh seems to have discovered the amazing concept that some people are better at other people at things.

Yes, magically, this applies for barbell training and strength too. I'm not sure what's so profound about saying someone who has more potential to be strong could do plenty of things that someone who has a lower genetic ceiling couldn't do.

and what is this notion of "barbell strength"? The strength doesn't disappear if it isn't exercised against a barbell, you know. It doesn't need an iron bar on your back to activate

[K.Diesel]

This must be the most volatile thread ever on this board or the strengthmill site. 68 responses to the original post in less than 48 hours!?! Please keep this going for a while. I just watched the Ravens prove that they have no desire to play in late January, so this was a good and welcome laugh.

Gearism and Rawliftingism reached the level of religious fervor on every board some time ago. Arguing this stuff if like arguing abortion rights, capital punishment, or what happens after you die. But since this is just about lifting heavy stuff and nothing really serious, that allows these arguments to be funny.

Now, could someone please summarize what the hell we're talking about now anyway? It doesn't seem like this thread is about gear anymore.

[Alyion]

That strong people are strong and weak people are weak. Lifting equipment can help both people get stronger in the barbell lifts.

Then Msingh came along and started bitching about how barbell lifts didn't help him beat his buddies at bowling and it kinda went off the rails into the woods after that

[h k]

I believe Stevo proved that SS does indeed help bowling, when he said ''my balls are like rockets,, in the Q&A forum.

[Sami]

And also that Gary seems to have temporarily lost his mind a little. Hopefully he'll come back to us.

[K.Diesel]

Ok, thank you all (Alyion, h k, and Sami) for bringing me up to speed. Sami, Gary will be ok. You know how much volume he does. Now he's just waiting for this meet to come around. He's in the middle of a 17-18 day period with no lifting. I'd probably lose my mind a bit too if I took off that long. :)

[Gary Gibson]

Ok, thank you all (Alyion, h k, and Sami) for bringing me up to speed. Sami, Gary will be ok. You know how much volume he does. Now he's just waiting for this meet to come around. He's in the middle of a 17-18 day period with no lifting. I'd probably lose my mind a bit too if I took off that long. :)

In one.

If I'm not at work or sleeping, then I'm usually squatting. This forced layoff was necessary (I can FEEL the healing), but it's driving me a little nuts. I did some max press testing and some light front squatting with the crap I have home right now and I feel much saner. The iron is like a drug at this point and if I don't get my fix, then I'm liable to mug someone for pocket change...or something.

I will attempt to leave death threats and penis references out of future threads. But I can't promise anything.

[Gwynn]

I would have liked more discussion on when people chose to start using which gear for which lifts. I just used my new belt and knee sleeves to squat, ordered because I was convinced by Gary's articulate posts. It was fantastic. I am won over in one. I am less impressed by the way the thread got hijacked, but obviously it's been entertaining for some of you.

[cannibal.horse]

There are more issues than just whether a suit makes you strong or not.

The things are fucking expensive. Theres about one for each lift, beginner and advanced models, some models are simply better than others (eg super kantana) and that competitive lifters will change their suits at least x1 a year makes them a pretty expensive venture.

This is compared to signing up for rugby where your only expense is rego and your shoes.

One of a few reasons people are put off powerlifting IMO.

[Gary Gibson]

I would have liked more discussion on when people chose to start using which gear for which lifts. I just used my new belt and knee sleeves to squat, ordered because I was convinced by Gary's articulate posts. It was fantastic. I am won over in one. I am less impressed by the way the thread got hijacked, but obviously it's been entertaining for some of you.

Gwynn, thank you very much.


There are more issues than just whether a suit makes you strong or not.

The things are fucking expensive. Theres about one for each lift, beginner and advanced models, some models are simply better than others (eg super kantana) and that competitive lifters will change their suits at least x1 a year makes them a pretty expensive venture.

This is compared to signing up for rugby where your only expense is rego and your shoes.

One of a few reasons people are put off powerlifting IMO.

Yes, the expense is off putting. But the expense is only a problem if you want to get the "best" gear that "gives you the most pounds." Gear loses its "pop" after a lot of heavy use. Old gear becomes "training gear" while newer, tighter, fresher gear becomes "competition gear."

But if you're not looking for carryover and just want some light protection, then neoprene knee sleeves and compression shorts (or even a very basic squat suit or power briefs bought in a size you can get on yourself without too much effort) will last you for years, just like a good pair of lifting shoes. That's all I'm saying here.

AND NONE OF YOU HAVE TO WEAR SQUAT SHOES WITH A LITTLE HEEL, OR NEOPRENE KNEE SLEEVES, OR COMPRESSION SHORTS OR ANYTHING AT ALL TO IMPROVE. JESUS, MOHAMMED, BUDDHA AND I WILL ALL STILL LOVE YOU AND AWAIT YOU IN PARADISE. THESE ARE JUST SOME SUGGESTIONS THAT MAY IMPROVE YOUR LIFTING EXPERIENCE AND PROLONG YOUR LIFTING CAREER AND MAYBE EVEN HELP SPEED YOUR PROGRESS DEPENDING ON YOUR INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, BODY TYPE AND EXISTING INJURIES. YOU WILL GET AWESOMELY STRONG WITHOUT FOLLOWING THIS ADVICE. YOU ALL WILL ALSO CONTINUE TO BE AS AWESOMELY GOOD-LOOKING AS YOU ARE NOW.

[Locutus]

Hmm... do they make full body leotards made entirely of neoprene?

Preferably green colored: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnC9y0SGqvA

[bugbomb]

On the Michael Jordan thing:

I won't get into whether a 400lb squat on a 6' 6" athlete would or wouldn't have made him a better basketball player. Hard to say that anything other than what he did would have had the same result, given that he is the consensus GOAT (greatest of all time).

However...

In what universe do people thing that his increased bodyweight and strength slowed him down? Dude, he began to slow down naturally, and in response added size and strength so that he could be effective in the absence of his peak explosive speed. As far as most of his work being upper body work, I actually think that was smart and effective given the demands of his sport and chosen approach - lower body strength is important in basketball when one is on the ground. But once you leave the ground and are trying to finish with contact, it's all upper body strength and the resultant control.

Again, one of the most dominant athletes ever to play any sport - "just squat" is good advice to shmoes like you and me, but if you're going to criticize someone's plan, please show how they could have been better without it. In this case, this requires you to show how Jordan could have been better than the best ever. Not impossible to imagine, but also not "get your squat up to 400lbs."

[K.Diesel]

I would have liked more discussion on when people chose to start using which gear for which lifts. I just used my new belt and knee sleeves to squat, ordered because I was convinced by Gary's articulate posts. It was fantastic. I am won over in one. I am less impressed by the way the thread got hijacked, but obviously it's been entertaining for some of you.

This seems like a good and decent path to steer us onto Gwynn (and hopefully safe).

Personally, I trained for about 2-3 years before I decided to compete in powerlifting. Until that time, my gear was limited to a generic sporting goods store-quality belt. I also used straps, because I had no concern about grip development at the time. Once I decided to compete, and settled on USAPL (a single-ply polyester fed), I got some gear. I got Inzer's entry level squat suit (Z-Suit), HD Blast bench shirt, and a Titan Fury bench shirt. I also got an Inzer "powerlifting" belt, plus wrist and knee wraps from somewhere.

I thought you had to use this stuff when competing, because I entered my first meet knowing nothing about raw lifting being allowed at all meets until a few weeks out. By then, I'd gotten pretty good with the squat suit and knee wraps, so I did my first 2 meets squatting/deadlifting in gear, but benching without a shirt because while my raw bench sucked/sucks, my shirted bench sucked/sucks more. My next 2 meets were done raw. The one Gary and I are in next week will be my first true full gear meet, and I'll probably look like a storm trooper on the platform :)

Squat: TIGHT squat suit, knee wraps, belt, wrist wraps
Bench: loose bench shirt, belt, wrist wraps - I'll still suck, but not as much as I used to
Dead: not as tight squat suit, belt, erector shirt, knee sleeves

To me, the gear question gets down to what you enjoy, whether or not you compete, and what kind of injuries you may have or be trying to prevent. I compete raw and geared because I enjoy both. If I didn't compete, I'd probably never wear suits and shirts unless I had an injury I was trying to protect. Due to minor knee problems I've developed delivering mail (no way I'm blaming it on the squats!), knee sleeves are a constant for me now. I know another lifter who's in his 40's who says due to a shoulder problem, he never benches heavy without a shirt. He hasn't competed in a year and a half. So in summary, I'd suggest anyone use what they feel they need to lift, or use whatever equipment will make lifting more enjoyable. Until you start getting paid/sponsored for it, this is just a hobby, after all.

As for the expense of it, treat it just like any other hobby's expenses - start cheap and go from there. For the person who's new to gear, cheap(er) gear still helps. I squatted 501 lbs in a $40 Inzer Z-Suit last November. By comparison, I squatted 453 raw in July, so in my mind, I got my $40 worth. The suit I've borrowed for this meet costs $160. If all goes well, that will be my next gear investment in 2010 and since I don't plan to compete in it until December, I should get at least 2 years out of it. That doesn't seem too bad to me.

Locutus, how the hell did you find that green guy?

[Mr.City]

Personally, I trained for about 2-3 years before I decided to compete in powerlifting. Until that time, my gear was limited to a generic sporting goods store-quality belt. I also used straps, because I had no concern about grip development at the time. Once I decided to compete, and settled on USAPL (a single-ply polyester fed), I got some gear. I got Inzer's entry level squat suit (Z-Suit), HD Blast bench shirt, and a Titan Fury bench shirt. I also got an Inzer "powerlifting" belt, plus wrist and knee wraps from somewhere.

No offense to anyone who uses gear, but why must the names be so silly?

[K.Diesel]

Because the folks who market this stuff thinks it'll sound more appealing to the poor schmuck like me who buys it. All about the $$ City.

However, I don't know what else they'd call it. The Inzer "HardCore" squat suit sounds cooler that the "OxygenDepriver" that it really is when it fits right. Metal probably sells more "Vikings" than they ever could if the suit were called a "Skinchafer". And it's hard enough explaining these suits to the unfamiliar as it is without them thinking you're crazy. Honesty in the names would only make it worse.

[Mr.City]

I know, but I feel this stuff is being named by the same guys who make G.I. Joe toys.

[Platus]

The Inzer "HardCore" squat suit sounds cooler that the "OxygenDepriver." Reading that is only slightly more hilarious than watching a two-man crew hoisting someone into/out of a suit. SS should be a prerequisite for anyone assisting a friend don a suit.

[Gary Gibson]

And also that Gary seems to have temporarily lost his mind a little. Hopefully he'll come back to us.

Before we move on, let me just share this old, favorite skit from the UCB (http://www.comedycentral.com/funny_videos/index.jhtml?title=upright-citizens-brigade-101&videoId=239031).

"Everybody coo-ooooOOOOOooo-ool out!"

[tescott]

Don't overlook the ridiculous names of all the supplements out there. A quick browse over at t-nation will reveal some doozies...

[Sami]

Before we move on, let me just share this old, favorite skit from the UCB (http://www.comedycentral.com/funny_videos/index.jhtml?title=upright-citizens-brigade-101&videoId=239031).

"Everybody coo-ooooOOOOOooo-ool out!"


http://static.thestudentroom.co.uk/images/smilies/gthumb.gif

[Jacob I. Briskin]

This thread is almost a year old, but I just wanted to say, fuck you msingh, I looked up this thread expecting to find some interesting and informative discussion about the use of gear, and instead I got this shit. You are a retard.

Also, fuck you Kyle Aaron, I know you only made one post in this thread, but your argument against training with a belt is every bit as retarded as msingh, so it's no good trying to dissociate yourself from him. Also, you have two first names.

[ColoWayno]

Gibson said "bench shit".

[Marotta]

Gear is for total pussies.



(Gettin mah troll on)

[John2336]

Wow. Just that.

And Marota, you just posted a pic of yourself wearing a belt. It's located directly over those quads of yours, so who you trying to kid?

lol

[Marotta]

Wow. Just that.

And Marota, you just posted a pic of yourself wearing a belt. It's located directly over those quads of yours, so who you trying to kid?

lol

Not to mention my phresh kicks (Or are those not in the pic?)

[Carnivroar]

Multiply gear ruined the sport　IMO.

[John2336]

What type of shoe are you rocking?

I've got the old school Do-wins that look like they were put in a time capsule for future use back in the 60's. I like them, but in another year or so, I'll probable get the new rogues. Pendlays site also has some really nice looking kicks, but they're a bit expensive.



As far as gear goes, My shoes, belt, and Tommy Kono Knee sleeves are the shit. I forgot my sleeves today and my squats werent affected, but my knees sure weren't as warm as they usually are.

[jon cowie]

but will gear get total pussy?


(talkin' out ma colon)

[jon cowie]

Gear is for total pussies.



(Gettin mah troll on) shoulda quoted this first really eh!

[John2336]

Some girls do prefer if you wrap it before you tap it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA nudge nudge, wink wink!

[Marotta]

What type of shoe are you rocking?

I've got the old school Do-wins that look like they were put in a time capsule for future use back in the 60's. I like them, but in another year or so, I'll probable get the new rogues. Pendlays site also has some really nice looking kicks, but they're a bit expensive.



As far as gear goes, My shoes, belt, and Tommy Kono Knee sleeves are the shit. I forgot my sleeves today and my squats werent affected, but my knees sure weren't as warm as they usually are.

2009 rouges.

[John2336]

Very nice, I guess I'll let you know how the 2013 Rogues work for me. Doesn't seem like my old school do wins are quitting anytime soon. Okey doke, back to drinking.

[DutchPancakes]

Even ripp will tell you that no matter where you take your powerclean or squat you wont jump any higher.


The best way to increase your vertical is to get your squat as strong as possible.

Misngh only comes here to piss people off. He has failed with SS as he no doubt failed with all other exercise programs (and probably most of the other aspects of his life too) and seems to think that irritating people here will somehow make it all better.