Carryover: Vertical Leap and Press

[Gary Gibson]

As most of you know, I spend most of my training time low bar squatting and bench pressing. I have to for my sport. As a specialist I accept that I won't be as good at other things. But I'm always curious about carryover.

After my last Russian Squat Routine w/ a Smolov chaser, my knees were too swollen to bend very well and it's taken ten days of rest for me not to feel so beaten up. I finally feel like my normal agility has returned so I thought I'd try two things that I always hope get some carryover from a bigger squat and bench: vertical leap and standing press, respectively.

Vertical was a bust. I've taken my squat from 345 to 405 this year and my vertical hasn't budged. Granted I don't really train it, but I'd hoped that the increased strength would help speed a little. To be honest, I think vertical leap relies more on quads (long jump and sprinting are more hams/glutes, this all according to Kelly Baggett) and thus a more quad-dominant squat (high bar or front squat) along with specific practice.

To be even more honest, my vertical hasn't really budged since I was in high school and couldn't quite squat my measly little bodyweight. Since attaining my adult height of 5'9"-10" I've been able to jump high enough to grab the rim and hang. Granted, I'm 40 lbs heavier now. I would love to hear from anyone who has significantly increased their vertical. Did you do lots of Oly movements? Type of squats? Depth jumps (which I use)?? How did any strength increases correlate. Thanks.

I was happy to find that my press has increased along with my bench. While on high volume squats my press actually went down because my midsection muscles were so constantly fatigued from all the squatting (I was using a belt after all :D). Now that I'm rested, I'm very pleased to find a new press max: 145, just another 20 lbs to bodyweight...of course I'll probably be a lot heavier by the time I get to a 165 press. I imagine a little press specialization could get me to 150-155 right now at 165, but I haven't really the room for it in training. Just going to have to take whatever carryover the bench gives me for the foreseeable future.

[msingh]

Standing vertical hasn't changed at all no matter what i've done to my body. Adding 35 kg of bodyweight made no difference. Running vertical is another matter altogether. When i was fit and lean I could jump a lot higher than now. It just hurts the joints too much to try that now, plus even when I risk the pain and injury I cant get as high. If as they claim that deadlift and squatting can carry over to running then there is a possibility that once i've removed the fat, my running vertical will improve on previous bests.

Can anyone explain why standing vertical doesnt change with fluctuating bodyweight?

[nisora33]

Vertical jumping needs to be trained specifically in order for any general strength that you might have gained to be utilized.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

Vertical jumping needs to be trained specifically in order for any general strength that you might have gained to be utilized.

-Stacey

Exactly what would specific vertical jump training look like if you had your druthers?

[pbjorge12]

Vertical jumping needs to be trained specifically in order for any general strength that you might have gained to be utilized.

-Stacey

How much gain is possible do you think over the natural jumping ability.

Let's say I have a natural jump of around 19 inches. If I got up to a 300lbx5 back squat and did some intelligent jump training for a month... Am I looking at 2 inches of added height? Or possibly 10?

What is a realistic increase that one can expect from strength increases and jump training?

[Sgsolberg]

Standing vertical hasn't changed at all no matter what i've done to my body. Adding 35 kg of bodyweight made no difference. Running vertical is another matter altogether. When i was fit and lean I could jump a lot higher than now. It just hurts the joints too much to try that now, plus even when I risk the pain and injury I cant get as high. If as they claim that deadlift and squatting can carry over to running then there is a possibility that once i've removed the fat, my running vertical will improve on previous bests.

Can anyone explain why standing vertical doesnt change with fluctuating bodyweight?

Msingh, the answer is that you are not trying hard enough. I don't understand your difficulty with jumping higher. You are full of hot air. If you really want to lose weight, consider having your stomach removed. Alternatively, there are other solutions such as gastric bypass or lypo. You are obviously too obese to be of any use to society. I sincerely hope you never procreate.

[msingh]

One way you could increase your jump is if you start training your calves. Squatting doesnt do much for them. I've found mine get sore recently after playing some pickup games. But if you're already playing ball you wont gain much of course. If someone was completely unadapted to jumping (ha), they'd gain from doing plyometrics + squatting. That's what bagett claims anyway. He says around 10cm if you do both, and around 4cm if you do only one of these two.

[stronger]

this topic has been discussed throughout the years, some interesting threads to be found over on Rip's board

[knox]

I agree with nisora. Vertical jump is surprisingly dissimilar to barbell exercises. To illistrate this point:

The equation for power is: power=strength/time. The power clean is a strength-based power exercise. No matter how much you can power clean, you always perform it at approximately the same speed. Thus, the power clean is improved by increasing the amount of strength that can be applied in a set period of time. In a vertical jump, the only strength you need is strength enough to overcome your bodyweight. Therefore, the way the vertical jump is improved is by decreasing the time it takes to apply a set amount of strength - i.e. a vertical jump is a speed-based power exercise. This cannot be trained well with barbells, since barbell exercises are designed to train strength and strength-based power.

So basically squats aren't going to help your vertical.

[msingh]

Msingh, the answer is that you are not trying hard enough. I don't understand your difficulty with jumping higher. You are full of hot air. If you really want to lose weight, consider having your stomach removed. Alternatively, there are other solutions such as gastric bypass or lypo. You are obviously too obese to be of any use to society. I sincerely hope you never procreate.

you're so cute. how old are you? are you trying to be a mini-ripp? Because you're trying so hard to sound like him. Stick to the topic please and dont make personal attacks, unless you have enough originality to pull it off ;)

former nba player charles barkley was quite heavy early during his career (250-260 lb i think). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNtcBpwyFEs .. but that made no difference, he could outjump and outrebound nearly everyone around him even at his relatively small size.

guys like bill starr also had a decent vertical. he wrote a whole article http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/site/?p=1229 on how to improve it, but even he only promised a few inches if that.

[Gary Gibson]

I agree with nisora. Vertical jump is surprisingly dissimilar to barbell exercises. To illistrate this point:

The equation for power is: power=strength/time. The power clean is a strength-based power exercise. No matter how much you can power clean, you always perform it at approximately the same speed. Thus, the power clean is improved by increasing the amount of strength that can be applied in a set period of time. In a vertical jump, the only strength you need is strength enough to overcome your bodyweight. Therefore, the way the vertical jump is improved is by decreasing the time it takes to apply a set amount of strength - i.e. a vertical jump is a speed-based power exercise. This cannot be trained well with barbells, since barbell exercises are designed to train strength and strength-based power.

So basically squats aren't going to help your vertical.

My experience says you are right, even though I wish this weren't so.

I think verticals can be improved slightly (very, very slightly), but as I posted on Rip's forum a few months ago, a big vertical is born not made. Like the size of various body parts, you get what your momma and papa gave ya'. Greater muscle cross-sectional area and synaptic facilitation (greasing the movement's neurological groove through practice) is highly trainable, which is why you can add hundreds of pounds to what you can move. But jumping is mostly a matter of something whose wiring runs a little too deep to be changed with most kinds of training. Shock training methods (depth jumps and the like) were supposed to "rewire" the nervous system at this deep level so that you taught the associated muscles to fire more quickly. I'm not sure the research still agrees with this.

[knox]

Shock training methods (depth jumps and the like) were supposed to "rewire" the nervous system at this deep level so that you taught the associated muscles to fire more quickly. I'm not sure the research still agrees with this.

Challenge accepted ;)

[Platus]

Here's unscientific, anecdotal info:

My vertical has gone up about 1.5"-2" since I started lifting early this year. There's no empirical way to say what did it, but I have experimented with jump squats while on SS, and I have been doing snatches as well. I felt like the mechanics of the jump squat more closely resembles those of a vertical jump than the O-lifts.

[knox]

One way you could increase your jump is if you start training your calves. Squatting doesnt do much for them. I've found mine get sore recently after playing some pickup games. But if you're already playing ball you wont gain much of course. If someone was completely unadapted to jumping (ha), they'd gain from doing plyometrics + squatting. That's what bagett claims anyway. He says around 10cm if you do both, and around 4cm if you do only one of these two.

The calves are the least important part of the vertical jump. A basic understanding of human kinetics and physics will tell you this, as well as scientific study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPB-4M57H88-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=62c1defd0dbca3bf4b869a112cd13de7).

For Gary:
http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pe/pe200802/pe200802-09.pdf
http://ajms.alameenmedical.org/articel_vol2-no1/AJMS3.36-46.pdf
These two studies show that training plyometrics does increase vertical jump.


http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1992/02000/The_Effect_of_Six_Weeks_of_Squat,_Plyometric_and.6 .aspx
The results of this study showed that squatting and plyometrics both increase vertical jump, but doing both forms of training shows an even greater improvement than just doing one. It's only the abstract though, so I can't vouch for the effectiveness of the study (don't even know what kind of squat they used).

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a762349106
Now HERE's something interesting. This study looked at how the depth you squat down in the eccentric portion of the jump affects jump height. Each participant performed 2 vertical jumps: the first was however it felt most comfortable, and for the second they had to go down into a below-parallel squat before jumping. The results: no effect on jump height. Keep in mind these are people who have NEVER squatted before, and who were uncomfortable going so low for their jump (as the study discusses in its analysis). So for someone who has, say, recently increased his squat by 45 lbs (just to throw out a random example), maybe it would improve his vertical by training to squat down lower during the jump? It's worth a try. :D

[msingh]

The calves are the least important part of the vertical jump. A basic understanding of human kinetics and physics will tell you this, as well as scientific study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPB-4M57H88-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=62c1defd0dbca3bf4b869a112cd13de7).

Unconvinced. What makes you say they're the least important?

[Gary Gibson]

Here's unscientific, anecdotal info:

My vertical has gone up about 1.5"-2" since I started lifting early this year. There's no empirical way to say what did it, but I have experimented with jump squats while on SS, and I have been doing snatches as well. I felt like the mechanics of the jump squat more closely resembles those of a vertical jump than the O-lifts.

My good Platus,

I've argued vehemently many times that relatively light jump squats would be of far more help than Olympic lifts. The idea is to use something a little less than your bodyweight. Your looking to increase speed more than strength. We all know a weighted vest or even heavy shoes decreases vertical. The jump squat is a scalable way to train the jump directly. Too much weight, however, turns it into a strength move instead of a way to target speed (rate of force production in a very narrow time frame). I got roundly mocked when I said I'd recommend 1/3 of SQ max; maybe I should have said to use a weight less than bodyweight. When you jump, you are trying to accelerate your bodyweight and again, the heavier you go, the more you are just trying to squat a heavy weight instead of jump. Of course, being able to squat heavy will mean you can move a bit faster with relatively light weight on your back. So light jump squats seem a perfect compliment to heavy squats when it comes to jumping.

And about those plyos...


The calves are the least important part of the vertical jump. A basic understanding of human kinetics and physics will tell you this, as well as scientific study (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WPB-4M57H88-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=62c1defd0dbca3bf4b869a112cd13de7).

For Gary:
http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pe/pe200802/pe200802-09.pdf
http://ajms.alameenmedical.org/articel_vol2-no1/AJMS3.36-46.pdf
These two studies show that training plyometrics does increase vertical jump.


http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1992/02000/The_Effect_of_Six_Weeks_of_Squat,_Plyometric_and.6 .aspx
The results of this study showed that squatting and plyometrics both increase vertical jump, but doing both forms of training shows an even greater improvement than just doing one. It's only the abstract though, so I can't vouch for the effectiveness of the study (don't even know what kind of squat they used).

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a762349106
Now HERE's something interesting. This study looked at how the depth you squat down in the eccentric portion of the jump affects jump height. Each participant performed 2 vertical jumps: the first was however it felt most comfortable, and for the second they had to go down into a below-parallel squat before jumping. The results: no effect on jump height. Keep in mind these are people who have NEVER squatted before, and who were uncomfortable going so low for their jump (as the study discusses in its analysis). So for someone who has, say, recently increased his squat by 45 lbs (just to throw out a random example), maybe it would improve his vertical by training to squat down lower during the jump? It's worth a try. :D

I found a bit wrong with that Starr article, but not exactly wrong. I think he's right that Oly squats and front squats would help vertical leap more, but not because they activate more muscle overall; in fact the opposite: because they favor the quadriceps at the expense of the posterior chain. I think quads are more vital for vertical acceleration (which is why I don't fault Oly lifters who ignore Rip on his low bar recommendation; high bar and front squats probably DO help cleans and snatches more, as well as vertical leap...but I've only anecdotal evidence and have done no controlled studies).

As far as the calf work, it stands to reason that some energy may be lost in transmission if the calves are particularly weak. Sort of the way weak wrists would interfere with the transmission of energy in a punch or throw.

And msingh, heavy squats DO require a lot from the calves. I get wicked charliehorses in my calves when I try to climb stairs after high volume squat work. Some direct volume work (many sets of five) does seem to help a bit with size and strength, however.

[knox]

Unconvinced. What makes you say they're the least important?

1) Kinetics/Biology: The glutes, hamstrings and quads are much larger muscles than the calves. Larger muscles are stronger. Therefore, I deduce that the former muscles have the ability to contribute more than the latter.

2) Kinetics/Physics: Look at the joints. In a vertical jump the hip and knee joints move through a relatively large range of motion with large leverages, while the ankle joint moves through a relatively small range of motion with poor leverage.

3) EMG studies show that the power output from the glutes, hamstrings and quads is significantly higher than that of the calves during a vertical jump (duh...see #1 and 2).

4) The study I linked to shows that when the range of motion of the ankle joint was limited, the participants' vertical jumps were no different than under normal conditions.

5) Try this: first straighten your legs and jump with only your calves (don't bend the knees or hips) How high do you get? Now jump with proper hip and knee extension, but don't use your calves (don't plantar flex). How high do you get now?

I'm not saying the calves aren't used, I'm saying that they're the least important component of the chain. For athletic performance reasons, squats, plyometrics and sprints are usually sufficient for the calves.

[Paul Sousa]

Here's my personal experience.

I played basketball all through high school, and while never a great leaper I did get to the point where I could dunk one handed by senior year. This was with no training in the weight room, rather all developed by playing basketball. I played alot for the next couple years and my vertical remained about the same (maybe a slight increase over that period).

I then stopped playing in my early 20's, but started going to the gym. I did terrible BB style workouts out of Flex and M&F. I gained a good amount of muscle (and fat), but my vertical (and general athleticism) declined sharply.

I then started playing soccer in my late 20's to get in shape and lose weight. I got down around 185 lbs. and my speed and athleticism returned quickly. I got to the point where I could touch rim again.

I then started to incorporate barbell lifts late last year. I really focused on deadlift and Oly lifts. As I approached a 2x BW DL and started working with (relatively) heavier weights on the Oly lifts my vertical had gone up another couple inches and I began being able to dunk smaller objects (shoes, water bottles, whatever I could grip well).

So with all that said I guess in my experience you need to do a combination of increasing strength in ways that carryover to jumping (which for me seemed to be DL and Oly lifts), and also some kind of training to apply that strength specifically (which for me came from playing sports).

[nisora33]

So with all that said I guess in my experience you need to do a combination of increasing strength in ways that carryover to jumping (which for me seemed to be DL and Oly lifts), and also some kind of training to apply that strength specifically (which for me came from playing sports).

I think that your observations are dead-on. Vertical jump training need not be elaborate (though I guess you could make it so). For the average person looking to increase their vertical (not talking for purposes of high level competition) all that you would need to do in order to see a modest improvement would be the basic barbell movements, a power variation of an Oly lift, and some simple jumping or slightly more involved plyometrics.

When people say that the vertical jump is a "naked window" into an individual's explosive capabilities, it's important to understand what exactly the phrase means. Vertical jump, the "naked window," is used to guesstimate that person's absolute limit--i.e., what you can expect them to be able to achieve in terms of explosiveness with appropriate training over time.

My question to those of you that think that vertical jump can't be improved, I would like to ask why you think that every other attribute of human performance is trainable EXCEPT for vertical jump? Endurance (both systemic and local), force production, power, flexibility, coordination, and balance all can be trained, but vertical can't? Think about this for a second.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

So I can get taller as well as heavier? It's not an exact analogy, but my point is that not everything is as trainable or alterable as everything else. You can make your muscles bigger, but you can't alter bone length or other bodily endowments. You can get stronger, but getting more explosive isn't so easy.

I'm not saying vertical can't be improved, but to echo Rip, a kid with a 15" vertical will never have a 30" vertical. The evidence suggests that although you can increase vertical, you can't increase it much. I am squatting triple what I could when I started out. If anyone here has added even just 50% to their vertical, I'd be thrilled to hear it. Truly.

I've upped my squat and my power clean and my snatch. I've also played a lot of basketball. Except for the initial small improvement I got from jumping a lot back when I was a kid, my vertical has remained the same for all my life. I'm a sample size of one, but that's why I asked the question of others.

Before my questioning starts off another shitstorm of "let's kill that Gary jerk", let me make it clear that I'm going to try to keep improving my vertical as my squat strength goes up because I want to believe squats can fix everything. But I'll be doing a lot of jumping too.

Edit:
How far up you travel when you jump depends on how fast you are going when your feet leave the ground. The (downward) acceleration due to gravity quickly reduces your velocity to zero at which point you start heading back down. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equations_of_motion


The equations that apply to bodies moving linearly (in one dimension) with constant acceleration are often referred to as "SUVAT" equations where the five variables are represented by those letters (s = displacement, u = initial velocity, v = final velocity, a = acceleration, t = time); the five letters may be shown in a different order.
The body is considered between two instants in time: one initial point and one current (or final) point. Problems in kinematics may deal with more than two instants, and several applications of the equations are then required. If a is constant, a differential, a dt, may be integrated over an interval from 0 to Δt (Δt = t − ti), to obtain a linear relationship for velocity. Integration of the velocity yields a quadratic relationship for position at the end of the interval.




where...
is the body's initial velocity
is the body's initial position
and its current state is described by:
, The velocity at the end of the interval
, the position at the end of the interval (displacement)
, the time interval between the initial and current states
, the constant acceleration, or in the case of bodies moving under the influence of gravity, g.
Note that each of the equations contains four of the five variables. Thus, in this situation it is sufficient to know three out of the five variables to calculate the remaining two.

Basically it takes quite an increase in initial velocity to see a measurable increase in ultimate height. Improvements in power production won't be so visible if you use vertical leap as a yardstick, as opposed to using weight moved in a squat (and you are indeed more powerful if you go from moving 135 lbs in a three-second 1RM to moving 405 lbs in a three-second 1RM).

The equation wouldn't render in this space so check the link. It basically looks like:

s = initial s + 1/2 (v + initial v) (change in time).

or

the change in position (vertical displacement of center of mass in our example) = 1/2 (change in velocity) (change in time) where acceleration is constant (again, in our example acceleration is due to gravity and is a constant 9.8 meters per seconds squared.

[Paul Sousa]

Gary, one thing to make sure you work on is technique. Just like any other movement there are efficiencies to be gained in bettering technique. I think you are correct though in that you won't see HUGE gains in your vertical. I think a few inches is probably the max for the majority of people.

Also, I think some of the Westside stuff looks like it would help in this area. Including DE days and such. I have no experience with it, but it just seems logical that it would apply.

[nisora33]

Something I forgot to point out earlier in response to the comments that vertical jump mechanics rely more on the quads than posterior chain muscles is individual anthropometry.

For example, I'm a very long-legged, short-torsoed individual. This means that when I take a vertical jump stance (typically narrower than the stance used for the athletic squat Rip teaches), I have to lean forward a bit more than the next person. To get more quad into it, I'd have to bend my knees to the point that my weight came up on my toes. For me, due to my relative limb lengths, I have to utilize more of my posterior chain. This would have to be taken into account when selecting among which of the squat variants to use, wouldn't it?

-Stacey

[pbjorge12]

Before my questioning starts off another shitstorm of "let's kill that Gary jerk", let me make it clear that I'm going to try to keep improving my vertical as my squat strength goes up because I want to believe squats can fix everything. But I'll be doing a lot of jumping too.

But... That's why I read your threads Gary.

[Gary Gibson]

http://www.enhancedfp.com/workout-programs/speed/why-some-people-can-jump-cant-run-kelly-baggett

[misspelledgeoff]

I wonder if there is also a difference in type A (super fast, extra large motor neruron) versus type B (fast, large motor neuron) fast twitch muscle fibers. as jumping would seem to require a higher fraction of the former and heavy squating a higher percentage of the latter.

[Bergie]

I wonder if there is also a difference in type A (super fast, extra large motor neruron) versus type B (fast, large motor neuron) fast twitch muscle fibers. as jumping would seem to require a higher fraction of the former and heavy squating a higher percentage of the latter.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems like power cleans and the like would translate over to higher vertical jumps better than squats.

[steven-miller]

Hello,

this is an old post, but maybe some are still interested in the topic.

I think stacey is spot-on with her argumentation that if strength, endurance, flexibility, power etc. CAN be trained, why would the vertical jump (after all an expression of power) be an exception?

When I started training for vertical, I had a 27 inch running vertical jump. At that time I already had established some degree of jumping technique and had to jump alot for my sport. Today I am at around 35-36 inches in the running vertical and I am quite optimistic that this can still be improved. I had the biggest increases after making progress in the back squat and following periods where I just made alot of max jump attempts.

So an increase of around 8-9 inches is rather substantial for a quality the majority of people here think cannot be increased much. This is the approximate difference of touching the rim with your finger tips and dunking a basketball. So one could say that meaningful increases in jumping performance are very much possible.

[PVC]

I think stacey is spot-on with her argumentation

Awesome.

[steven-miller]

Awesome.

I am glad you liked my comment :).

[PVC]

I am glad you liked my comment :).

Actually, I said that because you referred to Stacey as "she". Stacey is a guy, as hard as that may be to believe.

[BruteForce]

Exactly what would specific vertical jump training look like if you had your druthers?

Box jumps, frog jumps, explosive sprinting, and just practicing your standing and running vertical on the court.

[steven-miller]

Actually, I said that because you referred to Stacey as "she". Stacey is a guy, as hard as that may be to believe.

Ooops... Then thanks for pointing this out!

@Stacey: Sorry for confusing your gender, no offence intended!

[hamster]

Box jumps, frog jumps, explosive sprinting, and just practicing your standing and running vertical on the court.

Especially box jumps, which you can train with rep and set schemes, and use increases in height to measure your progress, just as you do with lbs on the bar.

[NolanPower]

I guess I'm a bit late to the party but the best way to increase ones vertical jump is to both train jumping and to train movements that are similar to jumping.

High bar back squats are similar to jumping in that the torso stays in the same alignment as a jump. Snatches (moreso than cleans imo) actually include a portion of it where you are basically jumping but instead of jumping yourself, you are mimicing a jump to put force into the bar. Jordan actually taught it as an actual jump which lead to bad form on the people that Jordan coached specifically, but it gets people to do the lifts much more effectively then by not using the jump cue for those without a natural coordination.

Snatches, practice jumping, high bar back squats = bigger vertical leap

The two lifts that correlate most closely to vert are the high bar back squat and the high catch power snatch fwiw.