Squat depth

[blowdpanis]

Howdy all,

I used to have issues with going way too low in squats, generally via a combination of a too-fast eccentric speed and relaxing stuff. Over the past few months, I've been working on my strength in a momentarily paused style squat (much like that described in Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive, though in this case done low bar), and while I've gotten much, much tighter, I actually seem to be compensating to the point where my depth is now borderline high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQz-y0zS-sQ&fmt=18

Taken from a workout last night. By my eye, these reps look extremely close to feractual parallel, but I might be a teency bit high, so I'm curious what more educated eyes than me think here.

Obviously, if I introduced a real bounce, there'd be a tendency to grab another inch or two, which would probably solve the problem, and I am guessing that adopting heeled shoes may also help things. Another standard cue is "knees out," but I am already shoving the knees out, though I suppose more is possible.

As it stands, I am not even getting much "butt tuck," so I think the limits of depth here is actually a pretty good indication of my hamstring flexibility, which is not so awesome. But I am going about as low as I can here while staying as tight as I can in the bottom, so I suppose I was curious what others thought of the depth. Worth fixing?

[Raskolnikov]

I don't exactly have "educated eyes," but your squat looks pretty damn good to me. I suppose you could stand to go a smidge deeper but I don't think anyone would call you on it.

(p.s. impressive chins, btw)

[Gary Gibson]

Agreed with Raskolnikov and with you.

Squat looks fine. Could be a smidge lower, but these are perfect paused squats to parallel (maybe a hair higher) and as you've pointed out you'll get another couple of inches when you resume normal squatting and go for the bounce off the ham attachments.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Hi,

I dont' feel like I can comment on your squats.
One thing I would point out though, and it's peripheral, is that coach Rippetoe advices in pretty strong terms against going backwards when replacing the bar at the end of the set.

IPB

[blowdpanis]

Hi,

I dont' feel like I can comment on your squats.
One thing I would point out though, and it's peripheral, is that coach Rippetoe advices in pretty strong terms against going backwards when replacing the bar at the end of the set.

IPB

I know, but this is solely for the purpose of taking video (i.e. there's nowhere to film that angle from the front).

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

I know, but this is solely for the purpose of taking video (i.e. there's nowhere to film that angle from the front).

Please accept my apologies for being unhelpfully picky.

IPB

[blowdpanis]

Please accept my apologies for being unhelpfully picky.

IPB

Totally fine, I appreciate everyone's feedback, and for all you knew, I enjoyed reverse racking squats :)

On the subject of pausing your squats, I actually once asked Rip if Bill Starr's stance had changed regarding momentarily pausing squats at the bottom, but he told me I should ask Bill. My experience so far with them has been mostly positive, I just feel more stable at the bottom and it's taught me to stay tight pretty well.

[tennisgod]

Your chins are awesome... this is the one exercise I really struggle on.

[Chris H Laing]

I was just watching the SS video on the squat, and at around 11:40, Rip says something along the lines of "don't relax to reach your depth", so you're probably approaching your squat problems the right way.

I'm sure as you go heavier (the weight in the video looked pretty easy) the weight will force you to go lower, even though everything is just as tight.

[Kenny Croxdale]

Agreed with Raskolnikov and with you.

Squat looks fine. Could be a smidge lower, but these are perfect paused squats to parallel (maybe a hair higher) and as you've pointed out you'll get another couple of inches when you resume normal squatting and go for the bounce off the ham attachments.

Gary,

You drop too quickly in your squat. Slow it down.

Kenny Croxdale

[nisora33]

Gary,

You drop too quickly in your squat. Slow it down.

Kenny Croxdale


What. The. Faaaawwwk.

This isn't even a goddamned "Gary" thread. Gary's squats aren't anywhere in this thread. You picked another dude's thread to pick on Gary's squats.

Jesus Christ, Kenny, I just shat myself with disdain for you.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

I just shat myself with disdain for you.

Whoa. I have to use that one.

blowdpanis,

I believe Marty Gallagher (who used to coach Kirk Karwoski on the USA Powerlifting Team) reported to Pavel T that Kirk used a 16-week program of regular squats followed by pause squats.

I'm looking through my copy of "Beyond Bodybuilding" right now. Page 42...

16 weeks, one squat session each week...

Two sets of five with regular squat, then take of 50 lbs and do two more sets of 3-second pause squats. Add ten pounds per week for eight weeks. For the second half of the cycle, cut all sets to triples.

Pavel reports that this cycle was designed by Ricky Dale Crain himself.

Don't know how Bill Starr feels about pause squats these days, but some of the world's best have included them in their programs (but what works for the best may not work for us, etc, etc...).

[coldfire]

Howdy all,

I used to have issues with going way too low in squats, generally via a combination of a too-fast eccentric speed and relaxing stuff. Over the past few months, I've been working on my strength in a momentarily paused style squat (much like that described in Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive, though in this case done low bar), and while I've gotten much, much tighter, I actually seem to be compensating to the point where my depth is now borderline high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQz-y0zS-sQ&fmt=18

Taken from a workout last night. By my eye, these reps look extremely close to feractual parallel, but I might be a teency bit high, so I'm curious what more educated eyes than me think here.

Obviously, if I introduced a real bounce, there'd be a tendency to grab another inch or two, which would probably solve the problem, and I am guessing that adopting heeled shoes may also help things. Another standard cue is "knees out," but I am already shoving the knees out, though I suppose more is possible.

As it stands, I am not even getting much "butt tuck," so I think the limits of depth here is actually a pretty good indication of my hamstring flexibility, which is not so awesome. But I am going about as low as I can here while staying as tight as I can in the bottom, so I suppose I was curious what others thought of the depth. Worth fixing?

Squats look pretty good, but if you want to work from a dead stop, why not lower it to the safety bars, pause for a second and drive up?

[Gary Gibson]

Same reason people use box squats and board presses instead of just squatting or benching off pins in a rack: different training effect.

Box squatting carries over better to suited squatting (especially for "stoppier" material) than pin squats.

Board pressing carries over better to shirted benching than pin bench presses. Pin bench presses would be much easier to set up, too, but people go through the trouble of having that extra person to hold the boards in place. The difference in training effect is worth it.

The OP wants to work on holding tension in the bottom of the squat. Pauses are superior to either squats to pins or boxes for this. He's forcing his muscles and tendons to do what the pins or boxes would help do if he used them. His goal is laudable and his choice of squat variation appropriate.

[coldfire]

Same reason people use box squats and board presses instead of just squatting or benching off pins in a rack: different training effect.

Box squatting carries over better to suited squatting (especially for "stoppier" material) than pin squats.

Board pressing carries over better to shirted benching than pin bench presses. Pin bench presses would be much easier to set up, too, but people go through the trouble of having that extra person to hold the boards in place. The difference in training effect is worth it.

The OP wants to work on holding tension in the bottom of the squat. Pauses are superior to either squats to pins or boxes for this. He's forcing his muscles and tendons to do what the pins or boxes would help do if he used them. His goal is laudable and his choice of squat variation appropriate.

But he is pausing for a very short time. I think a real pause might pull him out of a good bottom position, and that's my reasoning for using the pins.

[poopmonkey]

This may also be unnecessarily picky but it looks to me like your knee sleeves are too low.

I have the kono's as well and the directions state to position them so that the logo/symbol is on top of your patella. Looks to me like yours are a bit lower.

This is the only nit-pick I could make because your squats look perfect to me.

[blowdpanis]

But he is pausing for a very short time. I think a real pause might pull him out of a good bottom position, and that's my reasoning for using the pins.

What, exactly, is a "real" pause? The only difference between the length of pause I'm using and a longer pause is that it'd be harder to pause for longer, obviously.

I've settled on a pause around that length because it just seems to work better and feels more "natural" than arbitrarily pausing for several seconds. Or stated differently, what would be the effect of pausing longer, other than making it harder? I want "enough" of a pause to largely dissipate the stretch reflex and to force myself to feel out the bottom position, staying very tight there. This seems to work, and as I said earlier, is also pretty much in line with Bill Starr's suggestion, so I figure if it's good enough for Rip's mentor...

And for the record, I've done pin squats, and think they're an excellent lift, but they don't transfer to free squats nearly as well, in my experience. Similar to box squats in that sense, the ability to actually "relax" at the bottom as you deload the weight just does not transfer well to a free squat in which that never occurs.

[coldfire]

What, exactly, is a "real" pause? The only difference between the length of pause I'm using and a longer pause is that it'd be harder to pause for longer, obviously.

I've settled on a pause around that length because it just seems to work better and feels more "natural" than arbitrarily pausing for several seconds. Or stated differently, what would be the effect of pausing longer, other than making it harder? I want "enough" of a pause to largely dissipate the stretch reflex and to force myself to feel out the bottom position, staying very tight there. This seems to work, and as I said earlier, is also pretty much in line with Bill Starr's suggestion, so I figure if it's good enough for Rip's mentor...

A real pause is enough to eliminate the stretch reflex. I don't think it happens in your case, but maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, if you read the assistance exercises chapter in SS, Rip suggests pause on the pins.

[blowdpanis]

A real pause is enough to eliminate the stretch reflex. I don't think it happens in your case, but maybe I'm wrong.

By the way, if you read the assistance exercises chapter in SS, Rip suggests pause on the pins.

I didn't realize you were the arbiter of real pauses :) I seem to recall Mel Siff suggesting that the stretch reflex in something like a squat doesn't fully dissipate for a good 5+ seconds, though, and while that may have merit, I think there's a fine line between a pause and over-pausing. I've looked at a lot of videos of people much, much stronger than me pausing, and the pauses I'm using seem pretty typical in regards to length.

Again, I don't think pin squats are a bad exercise, my experience just favors paused squats as transferring better, particularly in the context of not otherwise practicing free squats in the routine (i.e. relying exclusively on paused squats, pin squats, etc). I've been fooling with these a lot lately with another buddy and we've sort of gravitated towards "momentary" pauses. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[El Viejo]

The squats look fine to me, but I want to comment on the chin-ups - those were fucking incredible! I don't know if you are aware of this, but there ain't a hell of a lot of guys that can do that. At least not at the gyms that I've been to. At the gym I currently use, I've NEVER seen anybody (except me, of course :D) even do a legitimate, full ROM, body-weight chin or pull-up. Needless to say, I'm very impressed. Keep up the good work.

[blowdpanis]

The squats look fine to me, but I want to comment on the chin-ups - those were fucking incredible! I don't know if you are aware of this, but there ain't a hell of a lot of guys that can do that. At least not at the gyms that I've been to. At the gym I currently use, I've NEVER seen anybody (except me, of course :D) even do a legitimate, full ROM, body-weight chin or pull-up. Needless to say, I'm very impressed. Keep up the good work.

I appreciate the kind words :) I've uploaded some new videos/PR's from tonight, including a new chin PR, for those interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssO2rp_XHE4&fmt=18

Weighted chins are kind of a specialty exercise for me. I've posted in Rip's forum before, trying to humbly suggest that chins, much like anything else, respond very well to sets of 5, 3 and such, and that waiting around to get an arbitrary rep # with bodyweight (e.g. 15 or whatever) is not necessarily the path of wisdom more than it'd be on anything else, imho.

[confuzzl3don3]

Man absolutely fking awesome. I better get working :D

[stronger]

those chins are insane. I'm still struggling with 3 sets of 5 bodyweight pullups

[El Viejo]

those chins are insane. I'm still struggling with 3 sets of 5 bodyweight pullups

I'm doing the same thing right now. I couldn't do chins for over a year because of a shoulder problem and just started about 6 weeks ago. I started with 10 sets of 1 rep with 30-45 seconds rest between sets, kept slowly increasing, and am now up to 4 sets of 5 with a 2 minute rest. My plan is to keep raising the number on the 1st set and not even think about adding weight until I can do 10-12 legitimate reps.

Sorry for the thread highjack.:o

[Polynomial]

Get those collars off the bench unless you're using a spotter! :p

Great job on the chins, though!

[JayvH]

Hi,
sorry but I have to rip this thread, but I also have a question about the depth. I am descending to pretty much the same depth like the thread starter, maybe a little bit deeper to make sure that I break parallel. But I also have a little buttwink when parallel is breaking.
Is it worse for the "bounce" of the hamstrings to wink with the but and therefore kill the tension down there or is worse if hip and knee joint only meet on the same height (=parallel)?

[Polynomial]

Hi,
sorry but I have to rip this thread, but I also have a question about the depth. I am descending to pretty much the same depth like the thread starter, maybe a little bit deeper to make sure that I break parallel. But I also have a little buttwink when parallel is breaking.
Is it worse for the "bounce" of the hamstrings to wink with the but and therefore kill the tension down there or is worse if hip and knee joint only meet on the same height (=parallel)?

From what I know: a little bit of butt wink is OK. What's happening is that as your hamstrings stretch, they begin to pull on your pelvis hard enough to unlock your lower back. Excessive butt-winking is bad, though, and can probably be fixed by shoving your knees out more or changing your stance.

[JayvH]

But isn't the butt wink the sign that the battle between hamstrings and lower back is lost by the lower back?

[confuzzl3don3]

Jay that's exactly what Polynomial said - "What's happening is that as your hamstrings stretch, they begin to pull on your pelvis hard enough to unlock your lower back"

[JayvH]

I get that, but my question is, isn't it already too late when the butt wink is beginning (even only slightly).
But when I think of it again while writing this it would not make sense that the back is rounding even more by going deeper when the hamstrings would not pulling even more.
OK, I think now I've got it.

[nisora33]

There are two kinds of "butt wink." One is from the glutes changing shape as the become stretched out at the bottom of the squat. The other is an actual loss of lumbar extension. The former is obviously not an issue.

The latter is only an issue if it becomes a full-blown unlocking of the lumbars. It's the rare bird who can squat to just below parallel and not exhibit some tiny measure of lumbar flexion.

-Stacey

[blowdpanis]

New PR's in paused squats:

315 for a momentary pause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEZE2o1neY0&fmt=18

335 for a (very) momentary pause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwYT3ZMswjU&fmt=18

My all time best squat previously in this style (Rippetoe-esque) was 335 with a bounce, so I consier 335 minus a bounce to be quite a PR, an improvement of 35 lbs over my previous record of 300.

This now makes me curious what I'd get with a bounce, though...

[TomC]

I have to also commend you on your chins. Those are legit chest to bar chins with a heavy weight.

I think my favorite comment so far was when someone suggested your knee wraps were too low.

Do you have any plans to return to a conventional squat without the pause? It certainly looks like you have your form dialed in.

[blowdpanis]

I have to also commend you on your chins. Those are legit chest to bar chins with a heavy weight.

I think my favorite comment so far was when someone suggested your knee wraps were too low.

Do you have any plans to return to a conventional squat without the pause? It certainly looks like you have your form dialed in.

Honestly, my gains have been consistent enough in my momentary paused style of squat so far that I think I'll keep milking this until it stops working.

I will definitely go back to a bounce at some point, but I figure I shouldn't derail a good thing while it continues to work.

Btw, here's Bill Starr's quote concerning the momentary pause/stop at the bottom of the squat he prescribes in The Strongest Shall Survive, and what I aim for:


"Go down slowly to a just below parallel position. Stop momentarily. This is an important point to always remember, for if a pause is built into every rep, there can be no rebounding. Do not relax when you stop, however, but stay tight so that you do not round your lower back and break position." - Bill Starr