4 Illusions Of Olympic-style Lifts

[Charles Staley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0yh6xwxTKM

[brittf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0yh6xwxTKM

Hi Charles.

Thanks for the illustrative video. The "bouncing off the thighs" illusion was particularly pertinent to me.

Regards,
brittf

[Gary Gibson]

Hi Charles.

Thanks for the illustrative video. The "bouncing off the thighs" illusion was particularly pertinent to me.

Regards,
brittf

Agreed. Before this I'd gotten a few bars pregnant.

[kittenSmash]

Thankyou for that Charles. I found it really useful. I just got done shrugging and humping my bar for a PR. Got the bruises to show for it. I plan to work on these tips next session.
And "not the most technically proficient snatcher or cleaner" on your lifts?? I would hate to hear what you thought of my form, haha.

[Charles Staley]

Thanks KS, glad you found it useful!


Thankyou for that Charles. I found it really useful. I just got done shrugging and humping my bar for a PR. Got the bruises to show for it. I plan to work on these tips next session.
And "not the most technically proficient snatcher or cleaner" on your lifts?? I would hate to hear what you thought of my form, haha.

[MikeTheBear]

Charles,

I agree completely about the thigh bump. Trying to aggressively bump the bar or do a big "hip snap" will simply throw the bar forward and away from you resulting in a missed lift.

Can't really comment on the speed under the bar concept since I'm pretty slow under the bar. But I agree that as the bar rises and the lifter drops the net effect is that it appears that the lifter is moving way faster than he or she really is.

Not sure I completely agree on the shrug and toe raise part. I recently had an issue with my snatch that I seemed to "fix" by focusing on an aggressive shrug. I admit that it may not have been the shrug per se that was magical but rather the side effects of a correct bar path and finishing the pull. You used a golf analogy in your video so I'll use one here as well (I played golf years ago but now find it a bit boring). Perhaps an aggressive shrug and calf raise is like the follow through in golf. Lots of golf pros teach that you should be balanced at the end of your swing. From a pure physics standpoint, this is unnecessary. The ball makes contact with the clubhead for only a fraction of a second, and once it leaves, that's it - nothing you do after that point can affect the trajectory of the ball. In theory, you could let go of the club and fall flat on your face and it wouldn't affect your shot. So why the emphasis on a proper follow through? Because our bodies, at least our voluntary muscle movements that require some skill, don't work in terms of fractions of seconds. Back when I played, my best shots were when I stayed balanced on my follow through. So, focusing on a correct end point in the golf swing encourages a correct swing path leading up to making contact with the ball.

I think encouraging a good triple extension accomplishes the same result.

[brittf]

Charles,
Not sure I completely agree on the shrug and toe raise part. I recently had an issue with my snatch that I seemed to "fix" by focusing on an aggressive shrug. I admit that it may not have been the shrug per se that was magical but rather the side effects of a correct bar path and finishing the pull. You used a golf analogy in your video so I'll use one here as well (I played golf years ago but now find it a bit boring). Perhaps an aggressive shrug and calf raise is like the follow through in golf. Lots of golf pros teach that you should be balanced at the end of your swing. From a pure physics standpoint, this is unnecessary. The ball makes contact with the clubhead for only a fraction of a second, and once it leaves, that's it - nothing you do after that point can affect the trajectory of the ball. In theory, you could let go of the club and fall flat on your face and it wouldn't affect your shot. So why the emphasis on a proper follow through? Because our bodies, at least our voluntary muscle movements that require some skill, don't work in terms of fractions of seconds. Back when I played, my best shots were when I stayed balanced on my follow through. So, focusing on a correct end point in the golf swing encourages a correct swing path leading up to making contact with the ball.

I think encouraging a good triple extension accomplishes the same result.

Hi Mike.

Very interesting analogy... Interested to follow the discussion.

Regards,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

Great analogy.

I stay with my jump analogy though- when you jump, the heels leave the floor, but not because you did a calf raise. I can't think of a simpler way to state this fact.


Charles,

I agree completely about the thigh bump. Trying to aggressively bump the bar or do a big "hip snap" will simply throw the bar forward and away from you resulting in a missed lift.

Can't really comment on the speed under the bar concept since I'm pretty slow under the bar. But I agree that as the bar rises and the lifter drops the net effect is that it appears that the lifter is moving way faster than he or she really is.

Not sure I completely agree on the shrug and toe raise part. I recently had an issue with my snatch that I seemed to "fix" by focusing on an aggressive shrug. I admit that it may not have been the shrug per se that was magical but rather the side effects of a correct bar path and finishing the pull. You used a golf analogy in your video so I'll use one here as well (I played golf years ago but now find it a bit boring). Perhaps an aggressive shrug and calf raise is like the follow through in golf. Lots of golf pros teach that you should be balanced at the end of your swing. From a pure physics standpoint, this is unnecessary. The ball makes contact with the clubhead for only a fraction of a second, and once it leaves, that's it - nothing you do after that point can affect the trajectory of the ball. In theory, you could let go of the club and fall flat on your face and it wouldn't affect your shot. So why the emphasis on a proper follow through? Because our bodies, at least our voluntary muscle movements that require some skill, don't work in terms of fractions of seconds. Back when I played, my best shots were when I stayed balanced on my follow through. So, focusing on a correct end point in the golf swing encourages a correct swing path leading up to making contact with the ball.

I think encouraging a good triple extension accomplishes the same result.

[Charles Staley]

Was just watching a vid of me doing an 85% clean, and I have another thought for ya'll:

By the time I finish full body extension, I can't wait until my traps elevate before I squat under- there isn't that much time. The millisecond I reach full upright posture, I dive under. When my shoulders DO seem to elevate, it's an illusion- My shoulders stay at the same level while the rest of my body lowers- which makes it look like a shrug



Great analogy.

I stay with my jump analogy though- when you jump, the heels leave the floor, but not because you did a calf raise. I can't think of a simpler way to state this fact.

[kittenSmash]

Was just watching a vid of me doing an 85% clean, and I have another thought for ya'll:

By the time I finish full body extension, I can't wait until my traps elevate before I squat under- there isn't that much time. The millisecond I reach full upright posture, I dive under. When my shoulders DO seem to elevate, it's an illusion- My shoulders stay at the same level while the rest of my body lowers- which makes it look like a shrug

That is an interesting point. Would the powerclean possibly have more of a "shrug" since it's caught higher and you do not have to squat under as much? It might give more time to elevate the shoulders.

[Charles Staley]

Good logic there but remember that even on a power clean you're still dropping into a (shallower) squat. But maybe


That is an interesting point. Would the powerclean possibly have more of a "shrug" since it's caught higher and you do not have to squat under as much? It might give more time to elevate the shoulders.

[Glen]

Lots of good stuff in here.

I agree with the active shrug of the shoulder being an illusion in order to create more upward momentum on the bar for the powerclean. By the time you get to that point/position, its really a 'pulling under the bar' that gives the illusion of an active 'pulling upward'.

Would have to disagree on the extension/'calf raise'/jump portion of the lift though. While the shoes we wear dont do much to promote the extension of the ankle, there is a tremendous amount of power to be tapped into there. Try jumping for a vertical normally, then try it by actively pushing off the heel and not the ball of the foot. Huge
diffference.

[Dastardly]

What are your thoughts on this article written by Bill Starr about the importance of maximizing the use of shrug strength at the top of the pull?

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2008/12/high-pulls-and-shrugs-bill-starr.html

[Glen]

Interesting article D.

While I have never been inclined to promote the shrug in any olympic movements for
my kids, I can see where hes comming from when trying to 'pop' the bar up to try and
add time to the bars hangtime to give the lifter a better chance of getting underneath
for the catch.

Normally, I dont use the shrug as a mover to create upward velocity on the bar. I usually emphasize the 'triple extension'(hip,knee,ankle). I dont often see the shoulders get elevated during an aggresive, 90%+ clean or snatch until the lifter is descending for the catch. Maybe its a timing thing or something. Or I'm not yet good enough to assess that movement at high speed.

I've never experienced a failed lift on account of a lack of shrug. Lack of an aggressive 'hip pop' or 'triple extension', but never a weak upper back movement.

Now, I've perscribed high pulls to get folks to get familiar with the timing of a long and explosive pull, among other things. i'm sure we've all seen folks that will try and drop to catch before they have finsihed accelerating the bar. But, whenever I perscribe them, it has always been with weight considerably less than their 1RM.

In the article I read that he adds 50+lbs to a 1RM and attempts to pull it high enough to allow the elbows to bend. If I can stand up fast enough to get the bar high enough to allow my elbows to bend, then I should be able to get under it to catch it, right? Maybe I'm just not visualizing it correctly or something. I use the high pull often. But never as a supplimental movement in an attempt to create a more effective shrug for the clean/snatch.

[Dastardly]

So there seems to be the same if not a larger body of people like Staley & Yourself that train the clean without a "shrug effort".

This is quite confusing for a novice trainee like myself. As Bill Starr seems to be so into shrug strength, putting various heavy dynamic pulls in his training programmes specifically for building mass in the upper back.

The way I understand it, this is also the reasoning why power cleans are in the starting strength programme. As a strength/mass builder for the back more so than its use as a explosive strength exercise for posterior chain. As squats & deadlifts are already in the programme, and there are no other rowing or pulling exercises for back strength.

[Glen]

I'ver never been one to promote powercleans as a developer for mass for any bodypart. Not knocking it, its just never been something I've done. There are always gains in size/strengh with it, but its not my goal when performing or perscribing them. What I am familiar with is using a powerclean as a developer of speed.

With most beginner lifters, there is very little 'body awareness' when moving/lifting. So I will put the focus on the muscles that will potentially put the most velocity on the bar : hip or the 'triple extension' of the hip,knee,ankle.

So if you are having a hard time with a high catch, force yourself to be more aggressive with musculature that can potentially put more upward velocity/speed on the bar : hip/backside/ass.

Dont sweat the small stuff at the beginning.

[ion]

Thanks for the video Charles - I am very interested in learning the olympic lifts!

I know You, Rip and some other coaches has stated that there's more important stuff to focus on beside shrugging, so naturaly I believe that too. (I'm too inexperienced in OL to have an opinion ;))

Could it be that the misconseption of the concept comes from all the media pictures of weightlifters frozen in the "shrugging moment"? So the shrug illusion you talk about is actually happening AFTER the pull is finished and merely the RESULT of the lifter trying to get him/her-self under the bar as fast as possible?

Have I got that right?

That would explain MikeTheBears experience of finding the shrugging cue helpful. Ie, the shrugging doesn't really allow him to lift the bar higher but rather get under it faster.

What say ye? :)

- ion