Your Take on the "Deadlift Controversy"

[brittf]

Hi Charles.

I am torn on the question of how to incorporate BOTH deadlifts and the traditional Olympic lifts into my training program.

Different people whose opinions I respect come down on different sides:

Mark Rippetoe (as you no doubt know) says the first pull in the Olympic lifts should basically be identical to the conventional deadlift that he describes in great detail in his books.

Dave Tate/Louie Simmons both promote a different "lean-back" style of deadlift, where the shoulders are actually behind the bar and you "teeter-totter" back to help you in the lift.

Various O-lifting coaches (Newton, Everett, Drechsler) each have their own arguments.

The outcome of this debate (can't remember where I read about it) was that maybe the (predominantly) Olympic lifter should use the Sumo style while deadlifting so as to not interfere with the first pull mechanics.

As a result, I have been using the sumo deadlift for the past 2 months. I lose significant poundage using the sumo (maybe 50-60 lbs on a 460 lb 1RM conventional deadlift) and don't really like it all that much. However, it may just be that I have to get used to the style and then I will be okay.

I am not trying to start a flame war. I was merely interested in your opinion. I ask this because of your interest and focus on the Olympic lifts as a Master's athelete.

I receive your newsletter and own "Muscle Logic" as well as your ebooks "Physically Incorrect" and "EDT: Ultimate Guide..." You haven't really written anything specific to the O-lifts, so I wanted to take advantage of your presence on Mark's board and get your opinion...

Thanks in advance,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

Hi Britt, thanks for your question.

Rip & I are good friends actually, and I can give you a fairly logical answer to your question I believe:

If your primary goal is O-lifting, your should pull the bar the same way you would during a clean. This is what I do personally. You won't pull as much as you might otherwise, but this is an acceptable sacrifice within the context of your goals

If you are a powerlifter and/or simply want to pull as much weight as possible, you might do well to experiment with both styles and see which seems to have the most potential for you.


Hi Charles.

I am torn on the question of how to incorporate BOTH deadlifts and the traditional Olympic lifts into my training program.

Different people whose opinions I respect come down on different sides:

Mark Rippetoe (as you no doubt know) says the first pull in the Olympic lifts should basically be identical to the conventional deadlift that he describes in great detail in his books.

Dave Tate/Louie Simmons both promote a different "lean-back" style of deadlift, where the shoulders are actually behind the bar and you "teeter-totter" back to help you in the lift.

Various O-lifting coaches (Newton, Everett, Drechsler) each have their own arguments.

The outcome of this debate (can't remember where I read about it) was that maybe the (predominantly) Olympic lifter should use the Sumo style while deadlifting so as to not interfere with the first pull mechanics.

As a result, I have been using the sumo deadlift for the past 2 months. I lose significant poundage using the sumo (maybe 50-60 lbs on a 460 lb 1RM conventional deadlift) and don't really like it all that much. However, it may just be that I have to get used to the style and then I will be okay.

I am not trying to start a flame war. I was merely interested in your opinion. I ask this because of your interest and focus on the Olympic lifts as a Master's athelete.

I receive your newsletter and own "Muscle Logic" as well as your ebooks "Physically Incorrect" and "EDT: Ultimate Guide..." You haven't really written anything specific to the O-lifts, so I wanted to take advantage of your presence on Mark's board and get your opinion...

Thanks in advance,
brittf

[matclone]

That makes all sorts of sense.

I'll just add this: someone asked Mike Burgener (OL coach) on his website about deadlifts, and he said he likes them, but not with more than 20-40 kg above the best clean, because then the form starts to break down.

Also, my former Olympic coach, who was also a competitive powerlifter, discouraged me from doing regular deadlifts, because of the risk of injury--but I'm certain he had in mind the all-out, lift as much weight as possible, variety.

[Charles Staley]

Well here's the thing about deads: Whatever your best dead is with correct alignment, you can always do more with a rounded back- just watch any power meet. That's Mike's issue and I tend to agree


That makes all sorts of sense.

I'll just add this: someone asked Mike Burgener (OL coach) on his website about deadlifts, and he said he likes them, but not with more than 20-40 kg above the best clean, because then the form starts to break down.

[brittf]

Thank you both very much.

This makes a lot of sense and I will incorporate the ideas into my training. Sounds a lot like the argument for Front Squat vs Back Squat training. If you want to maximize overall STRENGTH (ala Mark Rippetoe's arguments) then Back Squat. If you want to do well on the Olympic lifts, then you HAVE to be "strong enough" on the Front Squat to easily stand up with your heaviest clean.

So, my takeaways (as a tall 47 year old Master's Athelete) are:

Low-bar Back Squat HEAVY for maximum strength development (ala Rippetoe)
Front Squat with 20-40 kg MORE than 1RM clean to ensure I can always easily stand up with my clean
Conventional Deadlift with 20-40 kg MORE than 1RM clean with a focus on form and pulling mechanics

Sound about right to you?

This will actually simplify my programming quite a bit because I always struggle with which lifts are MAX EFFORT lifts and which are PERFECT FORM lifts. Now it seems fairly straight-forward:

Max Effort Slow Lifts (5's and 3's and periodically 1RMs):

Low-Bar Back Squat
Press
Bench
Weighted Chin/Pullup

Max Effort Fast Lifts (Mostly singles):

Squat Clean
Jerk
Clean & Jerk
Snatch
Power versions of above

Accessory Lifts WITH PERFECT FORM (5's and 3's):

Front Squat with 20-40 kg more than 1RM Squat Clean and PERFECT FORM
Conventional Deadlifts with 20-40 kg more than 1RM Squat Clean and PERFECT FORM

Thanks for an interesting conversation...

Regards,
brittf

[MikeTheBear]

Here's a deadlift variation from Olympic lifting coach Jim Schmitz. I've tried this and it's a neat way of doing deads while training the Olympic lifts. I used a hook grip. I've found that deadlifts contribute more to my pulling strength than squats, especially if I do them with more of a clean pull technique.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Lifts/Clean_deadlift_and_shrug.html

[MikeTheBear]

One other variation to try is the snatch grip deadlift. These hit muscles in my back I didn't know existed. Start with your max snatch and work up from there.

[brittf]

Here's a deadlift variation from Olympic lifting coach Jim Schmitz. I've tried this and it's a neat way of doing deads while training the Olympic lifts. I used a hook grip. I've found that deadlifts contribute more to my pulling strength than squats, especially if I do them with more of a clean pull technique.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Lifts/Clean_deadlift_and_shrug.html


One other variation to try is the snatch grip deadlift. These hit muscles in my back I didn't know existed. Start with your max snatch and work up from there.

Hi Mike.

Thanks for the suggestions. I went to the website you mentioned and will try the lifts...

All the best,
brittf

[JLascek]

Hey guys, just to give you another perspective (an elaboration on the Rippetoe perspective, I guess):

I pull my cleans and snatches in the same method that I pull my deadlifts: with my scapulae over the bar (shoulders slightly in front of the bar). If one were worried about confusing technique discrepancies, this is an example of what Charles said regarding pulling the deadlifts in the same manner as your cleans.

If you are wary about deadlifts for that reason, have you considered rack pulls? One option for intermediate lifters is to alternate rack pulls and halting deadlifts every week, but the halting deadlift would give you similar issues since it is pulled off the floor. But the rack pulls may be an option to get some heavy pulling in.