What Are You Guys Confused About?

[Charles Staley]

Just curious. Gimme your best questions!

[brittf]

Just curious. Gimme your best questions!

Hi again, Charles.

Okay, I got one.

For a self-taught, Master's, intermediate-level Olympic lifter (moderately strong, imperfect but okay technique) that is bumping up against a plateau in the squat clean, what is the best way to break through?

Pushing up against the 1RM limit more often?
Dropping back to 90% 1RM and doing more reps?
Microloading with very small weight increases (eg. 1/4 lb fractional plates)?
Dropping WAY back on weight and developing PERFECT technique (probably with the help of a coach)?
Just focusing on getting STRONGER (ala Rippetoe) on the slow lifts, with eventual carryover?
Breaking the squat clean into pieces and getting stronger on each piece (ie. first pull via deadlifts, second pull via hang cleans, standing up via Front Squats, etc...)?

I am sure that the answer is probably some combination of all of the above. However, I am getting a bit frustrated that my lifts have really plateaued and I can't seem to break through.

Any ideas?

Sincere regards,
brittf

[brittf]

Hi again, again :)

Okay, I have yet another one (that was raised after reading your post on the three qualities that everyone could use more of...).

This is near and dear to my heart. Plus, Mark made a comment to someone else's post on his forum that I cried "foul" to and begged him to retract!!! :)...

It is clear that older lifters can improve B) Maximal Strength and C) Strength-Endurance. Lots of studies show that, and both powerlifters and metcon competitors can do quite well into their 40s and 50s.

However, do you feel that there is both a genetic limit AND an age limit to improvements in A) Power (Speed-Strength)???

Mark's comment was two-fold: (i) you can't train a guy with a 10" vertical to get to a 20" vertical, no matter what you do (genetic argument), and (ii) most/many older lifters (40-50+) should just drop the Power Clean from his SS program and replace it with the Barbell Row, since they can't really improve power much anyway and usually just hurt themselves...

What is your take? I FEAR that Mark is right on this, but I love the Olympic lifts and refuse to believe that I am stuck at 47 by both age and genetics!!!! :eek:

Sincere regards,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

Britt, what's your best squat clean, power clean, dead, back squat, front squat?


Hi again, Charles.

Okay, I got one.

For a self-taught, Master's, intermediate-level Olympic lifter (moderately strong, imperfect but okay technique) that is bumping up against a plateau in the squat clean, what is the best way to break through?

Pushing up against the 1RM limit more often?
Dropping back to 90% 1RM and doing more reps?
Microloading with very small weight increases (eg. 1/4 lb fractional plates)?
Dropping WAY back on weight and developing PERFECT technique (probably with the help of a coach)?
Just focusing on getting STRONGER (ala Rippetoe) on the slow lifts, with eventual carryover?
Breaking the squat clean into pieces and getting stronger on each piece (ie. first pull via deadlifts, second pull via hang cleans, standing up via Front Squats, etc...)?

I am sure that the answer is probably some combination of all of the above. However, I am getting a bit frustrated that my lifts have really plateaued and I can't seem to break through.

Any ideas?

Sincere regards,
brittf

[brittf]

Britt, what's your best squat clean, power clean, dead, back squat, front squat?

Hi Charles.

I am 47 years old, weigh 220 (almost exactly 100 kg) at right around 15% bodyfat and stand 6'-5" tall.

Been trying to train on the Olympic lifts fairly "seriously" for 6 months; power cleans ala Rippetoe's Starting Strength prior to that.

Squat Clean = 110 kg
Deadlift = 205 kg
Back Squat = 155 kg
Front Squat = 125 kg

I do have a "trick" right knee. About 1/2 the time when doing Front Squats or Squat Cleans (anything with "ass-to-ground" knee flexion) it starts hurting so much I start favoring the leg and have to stop. The other 1/2 it feels fine; probably some cartilage floating around in the joint. Never (okay, maybe RARELY) happens on deads or back squats where knee flexion isn't so severe...

What do you think?

BTW, I was MOSTLY asking the question as a general question to get a discussion started. I am very interested in your "thought process" and not just in a free personal diagnosis :)...

All the best,
brittf

[matclone]

Mark's comment was two-fold: (i) you can't train a guy with a 10" vertical to get to a 20" vertical, no matter what you do (genetic argument), and (ii) most/many older lifters (40-50+) should just drop the Power Clean from his SS program and replace it with the Barbell Row, since they can't really improve power much anyway and usually just hurt themselves...


Maybe I missed it, but the only recent time I remember Mark telling someone that it was okay not to do power cleans was to a 50+ guy who had some reason (maybe equip?) why he didn't want to do them. The salient fact I took from that thread, which I believe influenced Mark's answer, was that the guy didn't really want to do them. By contrast, I think you do.

Not too many years ago, I was at weightlifting meets where I saw some "older" guys like Bill Deni (about 70 at the time) and Dan Tageguchi (?)(in his 60s) who were snatching at least their bodyweight and of course cleaning more than that. If you're healthy, and like to do the lifts, why not?

[Sgsolberg]

Also, since you asked...What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[Charles Staley]

Well, I'm 50, I compete in O-lifting despite having limited talent, and I'm still making progress, albeit slowly.

I do think that age and genetics are both pose legitimate constraints upon peak performance, however, they aren't always the bottleneck to improved performance. For many masters athletes, injuries and lifestyle-related commitments are the biggest limitation, more than age.

Another point about age is that it isn't simply a matter of how old you are, but also how many miles are on the chassis.

LAstly, it isn't a sin to do something simply because you love it ;-)


Hi again, again :)

Okay, I have yet another one (that was raised after reading your post on the three qualities that everyone could use more of...).

This is near and dear to my heart. Plus, Mark made a comment to someone else's post on his forum that I cried "foul" to and begged him to retract!!! :)...

It is clear that older lifters can improve B) Maximal Strength and C) Strength-Endurance. Lots of studies show that, and both powerlifters and metcon competitors can do quite well into their 40s and 50s.

However, do you feel that there is both a genetic limit AND an age limit to improvements in A) Power (Speed-Strength)???

Mark's comment was two-fold: (i) you can't train a guy with a 10" vertical to get to a 20" vertical, no matter what you do (genetic argument), and (ii) most/many older lifters (40-50+) should just drop the Power Clean from his SS program and replace it with the Barbell Row, since they can't really improve power much anyway and usually just hurt themselves...

What is your take? I FEAR that Mark is right on this, but I love the Olympic lifts and refuse to believe that I am stuck at 47 by both age and genetics!!!! :eek:

Sincere regards,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

OK, so with a 205 dead you should have sufficient pulling strength, but I doubt you'll clean more than 110 on a 125 front squat and a 155 back squat.

For reference, at a BW of 215, I also clean 110 and I back squat 155, pull about 205, and haven't tested the front squat in a while but it's about 120-125.

Now I've never seen you lift, so I cannot address your efficiency, but I'd start by upping the squats.


Hi Charles.

I am 47 years old, weigh 220 (almost exactly 100 kg) at right around 15% bodyfat and stand 6'-5" tall.

Been trying to train on the Olympic lifts fairly "seriously" for 6 months; power cleans ala Rippetoe's Starting Strength prior to that.

Squat Clean = 110 kg
Deadlift = 205 kg
Back Squat = 155 kg
Front Squat = 125 kg

I do have a "trick" right knee. About 1/2 the time when doing Front Squats or Squat Cleans (anything with "ass-to-ground" knee flexion) it starts hurting so much I start favoring the leg and have to stop. The other 1/2 it feels fine; probably some cartilage floating around in the joint. Never (okay, maybe RARELY) happens on deads or back squats where knee flexion isn't so severe...

What do you think?

BTW, I was MOSTLY asking the question as a general question to get a discussion started. I am very interested in your "thought process" and not just in a free personal diagnosis :)...

All the best,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/


Also, since you asked...What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[brittf]

Maybe I missed it, but the only recent time I remember Mark telling someone that it was okay not to do power cleans was to a 50+ guy who had some reason (maybe equip?) why he didn't want to do them. The salient fact I took from that thread, which I believe influenced Mark's answer, was that the guy didn't really want to do them. By contrast, I think you do.

Not too many years ago, I was at weightlifting meets where I saw some "older" guys like Bill Deni (about 70 at the time) and Dan Tageguchi (?)(in his 60s) who were snatching at least their bodyweight and of course cleaning more than that. If you're healthy, and like to do the lifts, why not?

I totally agree with the sentiment. I DO enjoy the lifts and BY GOD will get better at them, but I was curious as to Charles' take on the question. It may well be that explosive strength (call it power or speed-strength or whatever) declines faster and/or at an earlier age than max strength or strength-endurance. It may also be even more genetically determined.

None of this, of course, will keep me from trying to improve...

I have actually heard many different arguments to this effect. Mark's was just one. The "can't train a 10" vertical into a 20" vertical" comment is out of his new book MOMG. The "older lifter sometimes hurts themselves with the power clean" comment is from this thread:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=13746

with the relevant pieces (from me and Mark) repeated below:


Mark, please say it aint so!!!!! :eek:

I am 47 and refuse to live life without the hope of increasing my power output via the "fast lifts."

Suicidal in Austin!!!! ;)

Regards,
brittf


It ain't so for everybody. But some older guys destroy more with explosive stuff than they make strong.

My thought in asking the question to Charles was that he is also a masters lifter who focused on the Olympic lifts a bit later in life. In some of his writings, he discussed wanting to compete in Masters competitions in the O-lifts. I figured that he might have some personal experience and/or profound insights :) on the question...

Thanks for the thoughtful comments...

All the best,
brittf

[brittf]

http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/

Ask a silly question... :)

[brittf]

OK, so with a 205 dead you should have sufficient pulling strength, but I doubt you'll clean more than 110 on a 125 front squat and a 155 back squat.

For reference, at a BW of 215, I also clean 110 and I back squat 155, pull about 205, and haven't tested the front squat in a while but it's about 120-125.

Now I've never seen you lift, so I cannot address your efficiency, but I'd start by upping the squats.

So, it looks like we have pretty similar numbers. At least I am not a total dweeb on the Olympic lifts :).

My plan is to do the program I proposed on "The Deadlift Controversy" and, as you say, focus on increasing max strength in the Back Squat. I will also work the Front Squat but not to failure.

Regards,
brittf

[Charles Staley]

For deads, just do a few progressively heavier low-rep sets after cleans and/or clean pulls.

So for example, if you work up to 105 on the cleans or C&J's, you might follow that with clean pulls, working up to maybe 140, then start deads with a 150 double, then a 170 single, and maybe a 190 single. Or a little more, or a little less, depending on how things feel.

In this way, the cleans and/or pulls become your warm-up for the deads


So, it looks like we have pretty similar numbers. At least I am not a total dweeb on the Olympic lifts :).

My plan is to do the program I proposed on "The Deadlift Controversy" and, as you say, focus on increasing max strength in the Back Squat. I will also work the Front Squat but not to failure.

Regards,
brittf

[brittf]

For deads, just do a few progressively heavier low-rep sets after cleans and/or clean pulls.

So for example, if you work up to 105 on the cleans or C&J's, you might follow that with clean pulls, working up to maybe 140, then start deads with a 150 double, then a 170 single, and maybe a 190 single. Or a little more, or a little less, depending on how things feel.

In this way, the cleans and/or pulls become your warm-up for the deads

Good idea. I will do that. Thanks so much for your time...

Regards,
brittf

[MikeTheBear]

Britt, your biggest genetic limit for doing the Olympic lifts is that you're 6' 5"! I'm just kidding. Don't worry about the age thing. I'm another Masters lifter and I have a bad back. This doesn't stop me from lifting. Charles is right that the biggest obstacle that Masters lifters face is work and such getting in the way of what's really important - lifting.

[Kincain]

I'm still confused about something, hope it isn't a bother to address this question. Lately there has been a lot of debate on the usage of belts etc. on this forum, the article of Gary and on 70sbig.com
And why using a belt would be important and a good way in order to train, is clear to me but I haven't got a good answer about the different kinds of belts.

Watching the World Championship Weightlifting, I noticed that the lifters that used belts were that of a tapered form. Big on the back side and smaller on the front side. Now Rippetoe stated that using and manufacturing this kind of belt would be evidence of people that don't understand the dynamics of it. And using a belt that has the same width allround would be better.

So after a lot of thinking I came up with this :) A belt that has the same width all round would be better in order that the abdominal muscles have more surface to push against (the front side) instead of a tapered model that has less surface on the front side.

Weightlifters that I saw that competed in the World Champioship either use a belt (in a tapered form) for maybe the reason (And this is the part where I'm speculating, and not certain) that:

1. a larger surface on the back side would prevent hyperextending of the back. or;
2. the comfort, a belt with the same width all round wouldn't be as comfortable to use with the olympic lifts

And what would be the difference in using a leather or a nylon belt? I hope you could help me out a bit I'm pondering about this quite some time now :)

thanks

[HamptonMike]

But you have to remember that the African swallow is nonmigratory.:D

[RobertFontaine]

I'm confused about the whole shoulder in front of the bar, shoulders behind the bar when setting up for the dead-lift.

I don't buy the explanation that powerlifting the deadlift is somehow functionally different than weightlifting the deadlift. (Ignoring Konstantinov's rounded back in the third clip).

While back angle is obviously the result of how you are put together.
Where you line the bar up to lift from front to back when setting up should have one and only one efficient position and even if that varies marginally I can't see how it can possibly vary between shoulders in front of the bar and shoulders behind the bar.

One or both of these instructions must be wrong. I have heard it said, that" shoulders in front is for learning the clean", but that's not what Rip writes. He writes that the lift is most efficient and start with the shoulder blades over the bar not the shoulders.


Tate's explanation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2_mCh2dUI&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr2_mCh2dUI&feature=player_embedded)

- It hard to see at this angle but it doesn't look to me like the lifter is actually doing what Tate is saying he should do. (but it is hard to tell as the camera angle is wrong for a demo).
He says bar over the toes, it looks like mid foot
He says shoulders behind the bar, it looks like he is shoulders over the bar.

Rippetoe's explanation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht363HslwnM&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht363HslwnM&feature=player_embedded)

Nice side shot of Konstantinov
http://www.gometal.com/videot/konstantin_deadlift_430.wmv (http://www.gometal.com/videot/konstantin_deadlift_430.wmv)

Almost textbook rip style except for the rounded upper back.

[gp73]

Not sure if this is the best place to ask but I'm having trouble working on the bounce at the bottom of an oly squat. Does this just seem to come natural to some and tougher for others? Could you give me some cues/tips to improving this, thanks.