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Gary Gibson
12-26-2009, 04:24 AM
Coach, for your consideration. (http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=87212&postcount=27)

I'm trying to figure out how bad I should feel about my clean-to-deadlift ratio. There are a couple of other guys on the forum who have very similar squat and deadlift numbers to mine and who are similarly struggling with the quick lifts. We all seem to be hitting our heads against the same 40-45% of clean as a percentage of deadlift. Hear tell you had a power clean that was a similar percentage of your deadlift: 275 to 633. How to know when you just suck at cleans and when you are at your max clean ability for a given deadlift strength?

Speaking of which, do you think the power pulls (both clean and snatch) are more directly dependent on deadlift strength or squat strength? Are they a function of the squat or the deadlift? Maybe a function of the deadlift which is a function of the squat? I make the point in that post in the link that traditionally weightlifters fuel everything with squat strength, but they also do heavy deadlift variations even if they don't pull heavy from the floor often or at all.

I went crazy upping my squat numbers a whole lot while my deadlift barely budge and only did so as a spillover effect of higher squat numbers. Imagine my surprise when my quick pulls didn't move at all after all the squat increases. I know I'm out of practice, but I figured I'd be able to muscle up some higher numbers. Maybe I was relying on the wrong lift; maybe they'll go up with my conventional deadlift.

Mark Rippetoe
12-26-2009, 10:13 PM
How to know when you just suck at cleans and when you are at your max clean ability for a given deadlift strength?



What's your vertical jump? This is the primary indicator of how well you are capable of turning strength into power.

Gary Gibson
12-27-2009, 05:05 PM
What's your vertical jump? This is the primary indicator of how well you are capable of turning strength into power.

Agreed.

Vertical = 25" measured as highest reach with feet flat to highest touch point in leap. At 5'10" and wearing sneakers (which add about an inch to standing height) I can grab rim on a regulation level basketball hoop and taking no forward steps.

BUT I'm fairly lightweight. I'm probably not generating as much power as a 185-lb man with a 23" vertical. (There's a calculator somewhere online for this.)

It is my regretful contention that the power-to-strength conversion ratio is wired deep down in the biological system and cannot be altered. And if this is the case I suspect that my only hope of increasing my clean numbers is to increase my deadlift numbers, and to keep practicing the clean.

Mark Rippetoe
12-27-2009, 05:10 PM
My thoughts exactly.

Tor
12-27-2009, 06:44 PM
I believe I might be one of the ones with the weenie clean-deadlift ratio.

DL=mid to high 400s. PC=maybe 190

Vertical=21" at a bodyweight of 210.

m i just a weenie and proof of that old chestnut, white guys can't powerclean?

JLascek
12-30-2009, 07:26 PM
Over the past year I've contended that improving the squat (that we teach) will help the jumping portion (the second pull) of the Olympic lifts. I guess I always think of this in terms of the linear progression though, and it is assumed that deadlift strength goes up as well. In other words, I don't think that one or the other has precedence and both are equally valuable, regardless of the vertical jump -- but I guess saying this is redundant.

I don't think it would be wise to look at traditional weightlifters on the topic because they were high bar squatting anyway.

And Gary, when you gain at least 20 pounds, then both your squat and your dead will shoot up which will increase that clean. Eh?