Another power clean excuse

[Roamer]

I just got SS:BBT and PP:ST2. Am almost finished reading SS:BBT and started the Novice program last week. I love it and think I was built for squats.

I am in pretty good shape for a 50 year old. I am having a problem with the Power Clean. It is causing a bad pain in my right big toe joint.

Let me explain. I have Hallux Limitus in that joint. This past March I had surgery to repair it. It was too far gone to fix perfectly though. The surgeon removed a large bone spur that was causing the toe not to be able to flex up at all. He cut the first metatarsal bone and moved it back and down and put two screws in it. He drilled holes in the bone joint to promote new cartilage growth.

He said that there was a lot of cartilage damage and that in the future it would probable degrade to where I would have to get the joint fused or an artificial joint. At my last follow up visit with him he said I could do anything I want to do and judge by the pain how far I wanted to go with any activity
That I would have to live a “new normal”. That is aches, pains, and ibuprofen.

Well when I do power cleans and launch off the ground that flexes that toe in ways it does not like and causes me severe pain for days after. Could I be the first person you give a pass not to do power cleans or am I just a weenie?

Doug

[Mark Rippetoe]

There are lots of older guys that don't need to clean, as a SEARCH will reveal. If the jumping aspect of the clean fucks up your foot, you obviously should not do them. Keep your reason for training in mind, and don't be pig-headed about it like I tend to be.

[ferbo]

What would be the best sub for cleans?

[mike]

There are lots of older guys that don't need to clean

how would one best fill that void if the power clean was dropped? is there a preferred power clean replacement for the geezer club?

happy new year! coach rippetoe

[Mark Rippetoe]

There is no substitute for cleans. If you can't do them, the program is not optimal. Sometimes that's the price you pay for having survived long enough without training that you've started as an old guy.

[BryanM]

What would be the best sub for cleans?
Fat bar rack pulls?

While my reasoning may not turn out to mesh with reality, I think it can be helpful for the purpose of making the deadlift continue to go up.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Cleans are explosive, rack pulls of any bar diameter are not, eckspecially fat bar rack pulls. The explosive lift is included for a specific purpose, discussed in the books.

[Roamer]

I understand now why you say the Novice phase without the Power Clean is not optimal. I just read your article "Redefining Fitness" after seeing it referenced in PP:ST2. It takes to power component out of it.

My goal is just what you say in your definition of Physical Fitness:

"Possession of adequate levels of strength, endurance, and mobility to
provide for successful participation in occupational effort, recreational
pursuits, familial obligations, and that is consistent with a functional
phenotypic expression of the human genotype"

My recreational pursuit is golf and I would like to be able to continue playing
as I get older. I believe this needs a power component in my workout.

In the past I have done this with plyometrics and medicine ball work. Could I add this during my novice phase of which I am only two weeks into? Or would this be better left till I reached the intermediate phase?

Doug

[Mark Rippetoe]

I don't think that golf is a demanding enough physical activity that it will require specific power work over and above that which will be the normal consequence of increased strength. If John Daly can play the game at his level in the shape he's in, I think you'll be fine.

[blowdpanis]

There is no substitute for cleans. If you can't do them, the program is not optimal. Sometimes that's the price you pay for having survived long enough without training that you've started as an old guy.

Say "rows" and blow everybody's mind!

[shizz702]

As said there's no substiute for cleans, in your case I'd do barbell rows as outlined in the book with each rep beginning and ending on the floor.

[mlentzner]

Could DE lifts provide some of the power stimulus that is missing without power cleans?

[Mark Rippetoe]

See what happens, blow? You're kidding, he's serious. And yes, DE deadlifts could provide some of the same stimulus, but novices can't do them because they lack the training experience. They require a lot of focus and skill.

[Tiburon]

Well when I do power cleans and launch off the ground that flexes that toe in ways it does not like and causes me severe pain for days after. Could I be the first person you give a pass not to do power cleans or am I just a weenie?

Have you exhausted the other solutions? Ice the hell out of toe? Tape the toes together? Wear tighter shoes? Double-check your clean form?

[Roamer]

John Daly is not a good example of an high level golfer. Tiger Woods would be the example. And he looks pretty strong.
As for the power component in golf I think it is needed along with the strength. When the driver is swung from 0 to over 100 mhp in less than .5 secs the club head becomes as heavy as swinging a 60 lb weight on the end of a string because of the physics. You have to be able to maintain your postore against this pulling effect.

[Dastardly]

Would some kind of flat-footed dynamic shrug work?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Is John Daly not a high-level golfer?

[gman]

Is John Daly not a high-level golfer?

Maybe when he is not boozing it up. He may have been a great golfer, but was held back by his alcoholism.

[Roamer]

I just said he was not a good example in our discussion of the need for a power component in my Novice phase.

How about medicine ball chest passes, overhead passes, parallel throws, and perpendicular throws?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Fine, if you enjoy them, do them. But the VAST OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the greatest golfers in the history of the game and on the current tour DO NO POWER TRAINING AT ALL. This is because golf is a game, not an athletic sport. Somebody tell him about Marvin Brown.

[PapaBear59]

I was having problems with arthritis in my feet when I first started. Long story short it was suggested that I try some lifting shoes instead of the ones I was wearing. I still have some discomfort but nothing I can't handle.

If possible do the cleans. Throwing my kayak on top of the truck was so much easier this past week and I am giving credit to the program and cleans.

I just looked at the new shoes from rogue. Give them a try. Just be warned. You may have a hard time explaining to your wife why you need special shoes to lift in:)

[gordonrumble]

Oh god yeah, it's a nightmare explaining why weightlifting shoes are useful.

'just use running shoes!'
'but those are for running in.'
'you can do everything else too!'
'well yeah, but they won't be as-'
'everyone else uses shoes'
'but there's a compressible sole, see-'
'you don't need to spend money on this!'
'but the heel raise helps me'
'heel raise? you're not short.'

at that point i give up.

[Powerlifter]

Cleans are explosive, rack pulls of any bar diameter are not

Hmm, assuming you are talking of the rack pull as waht many refer to as the partial deadlift then I disagre with you here; when I was training these with Andy Bolton the key effect we were after was the moment the bar passes the knee to drive the hips forward forcefully while pulling with the traps very very similar to the clean but obviously with far less bar movement due to the weight.
This is a very explosive movement when done correctly.

Unless of course you mean an Olympic rack pull which is my understnading of it which essentially becomes a top part of the clean witht he shrug but not 'high pulling' or dropping as such.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I mean that ANY rack pull, volitionally exploded or not, is not explosive when compared to a clean. To know this, you would need to be "weightlifter" and not "powerlifter".

[Powerlifter]

I mean that ANY rack pull, volitionally exploded or not, is not explosive when compared to a clean. To know this, you would need to be "weightlifter" and not "powerlifter".


Thank you for the sarcasm, it really becomes you and your professional approach and highlights that you are not so fond of being questioned (are you insecure or something? I realise this is your little stomping ground)
Apologies if I don't simply accept your word as gospel - it would seem unlike yourself I value decent debates on the science of the subject and can always learn, I appreciate this is where you must come across as all knowing etc, but hey, sometimes we are all wrong.

I also compete as a weightlifter and train with some top lads in this field.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I suppose this means that I have been dressed down publicly. Let me ask you a question, and as an experienced lifter you will know the answer to this: can you pull a clean hi-pull as explosively as you can a clean? Even with straps?