Why the bench?

[Smack]

Why has the bench press became the de facto upper body test of pressing strength?

Just curious. I'd have thought that over head work, probably push presses more so than a strict military press, would be a better test of strength.

I'm one of these guys that likes to do as much of my weight training as possible being supported by either my own two legs (or my own two arms in the case of dips and chins), since I believe that this has the best carry over for real world applications and for athletes. With overhead work, I feel like my whole core is being recruited in order to keep the weight stable.

Plus, there's also the safety factor: I don't want to rely on half of the numb nuts in my gym to spot me on heavy bench pressing. With overhead work, it can safely be dropped onto the platform if necessary.

Would there be any harm in replacing the bench press with the push press?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Have you read the book? Read the book.

[Gary Gibson]

Why has the bench press became the de facto upper body test of pressing strength?

Just curious. I'd have thought that over head work, probably push presses more so than a strict military press, would be a better test of strength.

I'm one of these guys that likes to do as much of my weight training as possible being supported by either my own two legs (or my own two arms in the case of dips and chins), since I believe that this has the best carry over for real world applications and for athletes. With overhead work, I feel like my whole core is being recruited in order to keep the weight stable.

Plus, there's also the safety factor: I don't want to rely on half of the numb nuts in my gym to spot me on heavy bench pressing. With overhead work, it can safely be dropped onto the platform if necessary.

Would there be any harm in replacing the bench press with the push press?

I'm pretty sure I posted almost exactly these words on the Dragondoor site about five years ago.

You answered your own question; the press is an incredible trunk exercise; one of the best. I'd go so far as to say it's as much as or even more of a trunk exercise than it is an arm exercise.

The bench press is the squat of the upper body. It will develop your upper body musculature along with your upper body pushing strength better than the standing press precisely because the metal and vinyl bench replaces the human trunk as the support and as the limiting factor. The press trains your trunk and the ability to direct energy from your legs, through your trunk, then through your arms and into the bar. A bench press does not do these things, but precisely because it doesn't do these other things, it allows you to push as hard as possible with your arms.

If it helps, think of a press as something like a front squat. Both train important elements, but for pure power, weight moved and muscle activated, you want to back squat and bench press. I know overhead pressing is bad ass, but the bench press is the superior developer of the upper body.

And a push press rates far below both of these for the same reason cleans and snatches don't build strength anywhere nearly as well as squats and deadlifts. A push press has an element of grind in it that may help triceps lockout strength, but for triceps lockout strength, you'd be better off lying on your back and working that range with heavy weight instead of using the sloppy first half of a clean to put a really heavy weight overhead, also beginning the grind part at various levels depending on the fatigue in your legs and hips and how high you can jerk the bar.

[Smack]

Have you read the book? Read the book.

I haven't read the book in a while (read: years) since I have been drifting away from this sort of programming. I'll read the press and bench press sections today and see if that answers my question.

Gary, thanks for your reply.

I'll revert back to benching for now as my primary upper body lift. It's always been my worst lift, initially due to my very long arms, and now I think I have developed a slight psychological problem with it as well. It's the measurement of alphaness in young males (rather than, say, squats, sadly) and I am shit at it. I also have to use a slightly narrower grip than optimal for maximum weight or else I get really bad shoulders.

But as Rip suggested, I'll re-read the book.

[Mark Rippetoe]

And let me also suggest that you try not to be the guy that avoids training his weaknesses.

[mlentzner]

Just to add my viewpoint...which is a summary of what I've learned here.

The other "better" exercises that are analogues for the bench press, dips and dumbbell bench presses suffer from flaws that make them impractical.

Dips are difficult to do light (lighter than your own body weight) so are problematic for rank beginners. And they are awkward to do heavy for advanced athletes who can use more than one plate when weighted. They also have the unfortunate property of putting your delicate twig and berries assembly in jeopardy if you happen to have a mishap at the dip station.

Dumbbell bench presses are difficult to increase linearly if you can only make 10# jumps (5# jumps for each hand). You would need to invest in an assortment of expensive magnetic weights in order to make appropriate 5# and sub 5# jumps. They are not any safer than a barbell either since you can drop them on your head or dislocate your shoulder with the real heavy dumbbells you need to train effectively. Plus you need access to a barbell rack and someone always seems to be using the ones you need.

The barbell bench press is safe - WHEN DONE WITH A COMPETENT SPOTTER - is infinitely scalable from beginner to advanced, and only requires a sturdy bench in addition to your trusty barbell set.

In summary, the barbell bench press is a lousy exercise, except for all the alternatives, which are worse.

[78704]

I don't actually believe in the existence of competent bench spotters (possible exception at meets), and consequently do all my benching in my power rack. I have the pins set so that if I'm arched with full lungs the bar hits my chest and if I'm flat with empty lungs the bar hits the pins; 3 holes up in my rack.

[Steve in ATL]

And let me also suggest that you try not to be the guy that avoids training his weaknesses.
My coach and I made a ton of progress following this motto: You gotta work on what you suck at.

[Rafe]

I have read the book and am doing bench as part of 5/3/1 program right however i am curious about favoring the bench over the dip.

I and many of the athlete I have trained seem to be able to handle higher loads on the dip, then the bench. For me this is despite far more practice with the bench in the last year. its applies more directly to my sport(Parkour) and seems to hit very similar musculature. I am very curious to here an argument as to why the bench is super to the dip if you can handle higher loads on the dip?

[gman]

I don't actually believe in the existence of competent bench spotters (possible exception at meets), and consequently do all my benching in my power rack. I have the pins set so that if I'm arched with full lungs the bar hits my chest and if I'm flat with empty lungs the bar hits the pins; 3 holes up in my rack.

I also work out at home and have the same setup. Unlike spotters, my pins never lose concentration, turn to look at a pretty girl or daydream about other stuff while I'm benching.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have read the book and am doing bench as part of 5/3/1 program right however i am curious about favoring the bench over the dip.

I and many of the athlete I have trained seem to be able to handle higher loads on the dip, then the bench. For me this is despite far more practice with the bench in the last year. its applies more directly to my sport(Parkour) and seems to hit very similar musculature. I am very curious to here an argument as to why the bench is super to the dip if you can handle higher loads on the dip?

Let me suggest a novel approach here: USE THE FUCKING SEARCH FUNCTION.

[jacob cloud]

I have read the book and am doing bench as part of 5/3/1 program right however i am curious about favoring the bench over the dip.

I and many of the athlete I have trained seem to be able to handle higher loads on the dip, then the bench. For me this is despite far more practice with the bench in the last year. its applies more directly to my sport(Parkour) and seems to hit very similar musculature. I am very curious to here an argument as to why the bench is super to the dip if you can handle higher loads on the dip?

If you've read any of Wendler's stuff, you would know he is a huge proponent of dips. Ask him, since you're following his program. Have you bought and read his book?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Probably not, but he IS following the program.

[jtorres3]

I believe the reason you are able to dip more than you bench is probably because you are using a shorter ROM. That is very common with guys that add a lot of weight to thier dips.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Jesus fucking christ, is this CF? Are you going to possibly try to argue a big bench is not useful? Bench and press in equal measure. Use the dip as an assistance excersize. If your chest gets to big for your sport (which is really only applicable to the parkour guy, assuming you are deadlifting and squatting as well), then the dip and press become main lifts and the bench an assistance excersize.

Fuck. Next person who disputes the usefulness of the bench has to fight a guy with a 405 lb raw bench.

[Rafe]

Thanks Rip, my apologies for the newb Mistake. Found some good answers buried in these forums. And yes I have bought and read Wendlers 5/3/1 manual.

[FatButWeak]

Jesus fucking christ, is this CF? Are you going to possibly try to argue a big bench is not useful? Bench and press in equal measure. Use the dip as an assistance excersize. If your chest gets to big for your sport (which is really only applicable to the parkour guy, assuming you are deadlifting and squatting as well), then the dip and press become main lifts and the bench an assistance excersize.

Fuck. Next person who disputes the usefulness of the bench has to fight a guy with a 405 lb raw bench.

What he said.

Just because all the big boys in High School used their bench press muscles to scare all the skinny little weenies, does not mean the exercise itself is defective or deficient. Crossfitters, gymnasts, cross country runners, hopscotchers, sword fighters, bicycle riders and other "athletes" need to lose some of their emotional baggage about the bench press and embrace it. If not, its their loss. Like it or not, the bench press is a good thing. That's why Rip put it in his books. True, some people fetishize the exercise, or overemphasize it, or abuse it, but that doesn't mean the exercise itself is flawed - it means those people are. See "alcohol abuse" in Wikipedia for an analogous discussion.

Don't fear the bench. You aren't a child anymore. Noone will make fun of you if you cant put the "big wheel thingies" on the bar and lift it. Keep working at it and sooner rather than later you will be able to bench a decent weight. And then you will have the confidence to ask Mary Jane Rottencrotch to the Junior prom.

[Dave M]

The Bench Press is simultaneously:
1) A fundamental and important lift and
2) Overrated in most lifting environments.

Many people have hard time wrapping their brain around both of these things being true at the same time. But they are.

[Powerlifter]

1: The bench press is the squat of the upper body. It will develop your upper body musculature along with your upper body pushing strength better than the standing press precisely because the metal and vinyl bench replaces the human trunk as the support and as the limiting factor.

2: And a push press rates far below both of these for the same reason cleans and snatches don't build strength anywhere nearly as well as squats and deadlifts. A push press has an element of grind in it that may help triceps lockout strength, but for triceps lockout strength, you'd be better off lying on your back and working that range with heavy weight instead of using the sloppy first half of a clean to put a really heavy weight overhead, also beginning the grind part at various levels depending on the fatigue in your legs and hips and how high you can jerk the bar.

1: By that reasoning a hack squat is a better excercise than the back squat - sorry that is total rubbish - strongmen rarely bench press and focus on heavy overhead work, yet it comes to freeweight bench and they are knocking out reps with 200+ kgs
It is also fair to say the weighted dip is a far superior excercise for development both in tearms of strength and size for the gay bodybuilders out there.

2: Again this is tosh, cleans and snatches are akin to the split jerk not the push press! Can you explain to me why Mark Clegg (ex oly lifter 100kgs BW) who trains push press, log press, axle press etc as push presses is capable of strict pressing 130kgs over his head and benching more than double his bw raw despite not benching ever in the first part of his lifting and only about once every four months now.

I myself training as a powerlifter trained tirceps very heavily in and out of bench shirts and focused on the bench, and since moving to strongman and taking the focus away from bench and onto overhead movements my shoulder imbalance problems have gone, my bench is not only heavier but also quicker.

[elVarouza]

I myself training as a powerlifter trained tirceps very heavily in and out of bench shirts and focused on the bench, and since moving to strongman and taking the focus away from bench and onto overhead movements my shoulder imbalance problems have gone, my bench is not only heavier but also quicker.

This sounds interesting. Your bench has increased since doing a lot of strongman overhead stuff (I'm assuming that includes strict presses, push presses, log presses, stuff like that?) and not benching? I'm not saying you're lying, I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.

[Paul Sousa]

What I can't stand is when people say the bench is useless because your body is supported by the bench. I assume they are implying that cause you to lack tension from your feet to your hands. If you are benching properly your feet are pushing against the ground and causing your entire body to be tense. I mean you could do the press with minimal tension in your body, but you would limit the weight you could put up. Same thing with the bench. Both lifts require full body tension to lift maximal weights.

Don't hate a lift just because you can't do it right.

[78704]

The Bench Press is simultaneously:
1) A fundamental and important lift and
2) Overrated in most lifting environments.

Many people have hard time wrapping their brain around both of these things being true at the same time. But they are.

Like Elvis and Shakespeare, great and also overrated.