Define: athlete, sport

[JLascek]

Hey Charles,

Rip and I have been talking about how one would define the terms "athlete" and "sport". There are folk who claim they are training "athletes" (when trainee might be a better term) and even calling their training a "sport" in itself. I've always considered an athlete someone who competes in sport, but Rip wasn't so sure. I've formulated a pretty decent definition for "sport", but it has a hole or two and thus is incomplete.

In any case, we both figured you have had to think about this at one point or another, and would like your feedback.

[Sami]

I defer to George Carlin on what is and isn't a sport.

[Charles Staley]

Fascinating that you would pose this question- the subject is near and dear to me, and I have in fact given it a lot of thought.

First, I consider myself an athlete. Why? Because I train for and compete in sanctioned sporting competitions.

With that said, I have a very personal definition of "athlete," one that others may disagree with. For me, being an athlete is an aspirational concept. Although I am aware that many high level athletes do terrible things (E.g., Tiger Woods), for me personally, being an athlete is about striving for perfection, physically and otherwise. It's about traveling the path from a lower plane to a higher one, one every level.

But if you're looking for a more universal definition, people who train for and compete in sanctioned sports are athletes. People who train for but do not compete in sanctioned sports, that's where the grey area is. If pressed, I would say these people may have athletic lifestyles and/or mindsets (both os which are admiral traits BTW), but they are not athletes. They may train as hard as athletes; they may be as fit as or fitter than athletes; but they are not athletes technically. This is not to demean, but rather to clarify.

If you used to compete but still train w/o competing, what are you? Hard to say. Maybe we need a new term.

Incidentally, many athletes are in terrible physical condition (I can think of some golfers who fit this description), but they're still athletes. And there are also people in incredible shape (circus performers, dancers, martial artists, yoga practicioners, for example), but who are not technically athletes

I havent talked about sport yet, but I think it's easier to define. All Olympic sports are "sports," as are all scholastic sports, be they Olympic or not. There are a number of sports that are found neither Olympic or scholastic, but are credible nonetheless based on their history and organization (E.g., powerlifting). Some "sports" are contentious: ESPN regularly covers dog shows and fishing contests for example). Other organized athletic activities are on the path to sportdom: (frisbee golf, helicopter skiing, etc). Ultimately, I think whether or not an activity is a sport is a matter of public consensus: is enough people say it' a sport, it's probaby a sport.

OK, over to you'all...


Hey Charles,

Rip and I have been talking about how one would define the terms "athlete" and "sport". There are folk who claim they are training "athletes" (when trainee might be a better term) and even calling their training a "sport" in itself. I've always considered an athlete someone who competes in sport, but Rip wasn't so sure. I've formulated a pretty decent definition for "sport", but it has a hole or two and thus is incomplete.

In any case, we both figured you have had to think about this at one point or another, and would like your feedback.

[Webbie]

Do you see a difference in a sport vs a game? Football = Sport, Darts= Game. Basically, a sport involves more physicality and the possibility of danger or injury.

[BCS]

Is cheerleading a sport?

[misspelledgeoff]

Interesting question. It would seem the implicit definition of 'sport' in society would involve two elements.
1. Competition
2. Physicality (very muddy societal definition of what this means, I think)

So 'competitive' cheerleading where the groups are on ESPN and vye for first place vs. other groups would be a 'sport'. But a group just cheering every Saturday would not be a 'sport'. Clearly the latter meets physicality condition but not competition condition.

Likewise, chess is certainly competitive but hardly physical. Thus is wouldn't be deemed 'sport'.


Is cheerleading a sport?

[Charles Staley]

Yes- golf is sometimes referred to as a sport, other times a game. One thing to remember about golf is that is does require high level of physical skill, although it does not require a lot of strength, speed, or endurance.


Do you see a difference in a sport vs a game? Football = Sport, Darts= Game. Basically, a sport involves more physicality and the possibility of danger or injury.

[Charles Staley]

Another point worth clarifying:

There is a vast difference between exercising, working out, and training.

Exercising is done principally for the purpose of weight-loss, for either health or cosmetic reasons

Working out is done principally for cosmetic reasons, and can involve either weight loss or weight gain. While exercise is generally aerobic in nature, working out often involves resistance training.

Training implies a purpose above and beyond cosmetics or health. That purpose, more often than not, is athletic competition.

Therefore, if you compete, you're training. If you don't compete, you're (at best) working out.


Hey Charles,

Rip and I have been talking about how one would define the terms "athlete" and "sport". There are folk who claim they are training "athletes" (when trainee might be a better term) and even calling their training a "sport" in itself. I've always considered an athlete someone who competes in sport, but Rip wasn't so sure. I've formulated a pretty decent definition for "sport", but it has a hole or two and thus is incomplete.

In any case, we both figured you have had to think about this at one point or another, and would like your feedback.

[JLascek]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Charles.

I always consider sport to encompass the following:

- Individuals or groups participating in a sanctioned competition that has a standard set of rules for achieving victory.
- The competitors (who are human) exhibit physicality (stole this term from this thread).

The term physicality (or the requirement of physical exertion in the competition) is so vague and hard to define or quantify, that I deem this the hole in the definition. I don't consider motor sports (like Nascar), horse racing, billiards, hot dog eating, or spelling bees to be sports. If cheerleading's rules are detailed as in gymnastics or diving (as in the criteria they look for when executing movements), then the cheerleading competitions would be a sport (obviously sideline rah-rah would not be).

If there was some sort of physicality quantification, then things like golf or catfish noodling would be reduced to a game or hobby.

To make things more difficult, is something like strongman competitions a sport in which the events within the competition can vary (so much as they are displayed in the registration for the competition)? If yes, it opens up possibilities for other silly competitions to be considered a sport.

[TomV]

Though slightly off topic, I always thought this quote was quite cool:

“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”
-Ernest Hemingway.

(I don't necessarily agree with Mr. Hemingway either).

[Glen]

Always a fun topic.

I would put a noticeable line between 'sport'/'sportsmen' and 'athletics'/'athlete'.

Sports/Sportsmen : physicality -while competing- is zero to moderate
your competition cannot directly affect your game
risk of serious personal injury is zero to moderate
example of sportsmen - Gamblers, Golf, Bowlers, Competitive eaters,bodybuilders,etc

Athletics/Athletes: physicality -while competing- is moderate to extreme
your competition can directly affect your game
risk of serious personal injury is moderate to extreme

example of athletes : combat/collision events, tennis, mountain climbing, high end
explorers(think climbing mt.everest), rock climbing, nascar

Not sure where I would put powerlifting/Olympic lifting, probly more of a sportsmen than athlete. I was a thrower in college and wouldnt rate myself as an athlete in the strictest sense. not when I'm standing next to wrestlers, football, basketball, boxers, etc.
I wouldnt consider the amount of training to be successful as criteria for being an athlete, doing ANYTHING well always takes a certain amount of dedication, discipline, and sacrifice.(job,parent,husband,etc).

It’s about the competition itself, whats at risk, and what others can do to prevent you
from winning.

[Phil Stevens]

To make things more difficult, is something like strongman competitions a sport in which the events within the competition can vary (so much as they are displayed in the registration for the competition)? If yes, it opens up possibilities for other silly competitions to be considered a sport.

Id like to know why you think it would not be a sport what quality aside from variety does it display that makes you think it would not be?

As someone who in the past competed in it now powerlifting and soon highland. I see it as no less a sport in the pure definition as say football, powerlifting, baseball, highland, track.

Unlike something like body building which honestly is more a pageant or show then a sport due to the subjectivity of the sport. Strongman does have a defined and objective goal you the individual must prepare for and reach. the outcome is left to YOU the individual and what you a free able to accomplish regardless of what the event is. The only real difference between strongman and Oly lfiting, power, highland, Basque, shot pot, triathlon is that any event you could have a large number of set in stone events you have to do. Under defined rules every single athlete has to follow to create very object and comparable results.

[JLascek]

Id like to know why you think it would not be a sport what quality aside from variety does it display that makes you think it would not be?

As someone who in the past competed in it now powerlifting and soon highland. I see it as no less a sport in the pure definition as say football, powerlifting, baseball, highland, track.

Unlike something like body building which honestly is more a pageant or show then a sport due to the subjectivity of the sport. Strongman does have a defined and objective goal you the individual must prepare for and reach. the outcome is left to YOU the individual and what you a free able to accomplish regardless of what the event is. The only real difference between strongman and Oly lfiting, power, highland, Basque, shot pot, triathlon is that any event you could have a large number of set in stone events you have to do. Under defined rules every single athlete has to follow to create very object and comparable results.

Yo Phil,

I consider Strongman a sport. I just want it to fit into my definition. I'm worried about the semantics. And another point will be made to you in a PM.

[gordonrumble]

Thought I might throw in my own two cents.

I've always considered a sport a test of physical prowess (skill, exertion, physical fitness) in direct physical competition between two parties of groups, with objective scoring. That might seem kind of narrow: for example, football, squash, tennis, hockey, lacrosse, baseball, etc are all sports, but fiqure skating, gymnastics, etc would not be. I'd refer to them as 'athletic contests' or something of the like, because subjective scoring makes athletes judged differently (don't want to go first, don't want to be from the wrong country, etc), and the skill of one athlete does not directly impact the performance of another. The back-and-forth to me is critical.

I have a huge amount of respect for non-sport athletic competition. I have people in my family involved in gymnastics, and I know how hard they work and how fit they are. I'm not saying it's worse in any way than a sport, I just don't think that it's the same thing.

As for athletes, those are people who engage in competition based around physical prowess (skill, exertion, fitness). People who don't compete aren't athletes, they are physically capable people, and that's fine too. Athletes who retire are retired athletes, and if they continue to train then they are retired athletes who are physically capable people.

Everyone's going to have a different view.

[Dastardly]

A relevant question for you lot:

Is a bodybuilder an athlete or even a sports person?

They all seem to believe they are and use the term strongly and defensively. I think in their own eyes they see themselves as the greatest athletes in the world.

But to me, despite however much training and dieting they do to prepare. It is just a beauty pageant/livestock show. Are either prize animal breeders or beauty queens also athletes ?

I dont feel it. But really, bodybuilders belive this so strongly and are deeply offended by the idea they are not.

Dorian Yates gym is in my city, I think if I uttered these thoughts there I would promptly have my head torn off and mounted on the top of a calf raise machine.

A sport is a type of competitive game.

Athletics/athletic endeavors, are a competitive test of physical ability. Such as speed, strength, endurance or mobility (like gymnastics/diving etc)

I dont think bodybuilding is any of these.

[Platus]

Sports/Sportsmen : physicality -while competing- is zero to moderate

Athletics/Athletes: physicality -while competing- is moderate to extreme
Athletics/athletic endeavors, are a competitive test of physical ability. Such as speed, strength, endurance or mobility (like gymnastics/diving etc)The problem here is that the line separating games and sports is fluid. Throwing darts well takes great accuracy and precision; these a physical abilities, but I would presume that most of us here would put darts in the 'game' category. It doesn't seem likely that we can agree on a definitive measure for just how much force has to be exerted during the activity for it to become a 'sport.' How many newtons must be applied to the ball before 'physicality' goes from moderate to extreme?

All that linguistic relativism aside, I think that Charles is dead on when he suggests that having the mindset of an athlete brings many benefits for health and well-being that are often missing when people consign themselves to the guilt-driven cycle of "working out."

[Rawr]

Is cheerleading a sport?

Hell no.

[xzcion]

trainee is someone who is training for something.
athlete is someone who is athletic.
game is a competition with defined rules (even if it's calvin ball) where people or teams compete against each other to achieve a goal (lowest time, most points, etc).
sport is another word for a game where sponsorship is involved.

then again. I may be australian and antipodian in my thoughts.

[PVC]

What is it exactly that makes darts a game as opposed to a sport?

[Gwynn]

A relevant question for you lot:
Is a bodybuilder an athlete or even a sports person?


This question brings up the role aesthetics has or does not have in sport.
I would argue that bodybuilding is art based around body modification. Aesthetics is the most important criterion. And let's remember that everyone has a different definition of bad art. I am not getting into that here.

Dance is definitely art. Back in my dancing days, I was always offended when someone called me an athlete. Snobbery abounds, eh?

Circus arts - definitely art.

Gymnastics? Figure skating? There's an element of art and an element of sport, but competition is based upon artistic standards - skill and beauty are inextricably intertwined.

Martial arts? Here's where my definition founders. Aesthetics often, but not always, take a back seat to efficiency. I'd say here, elements of art and elements of sport. On the one extreme you have Chinese Opera-influenced styles that are gorgeous and elaborate (Jet Li is a good example) and really do lend themselves to performance. The competitive styles include boxing, wrestling, kendo, fencing, combat Sinawali, etc. I would say these are examples of sport. Participants directly contend with one another.

Another factor to consider is historical tradition. Many traditional martial arts styles (the Japanese ko ryo and their derivatives for example) fall into this category. Here we have practitioners who study historical ways to practice war, who are usually not actually doing so in everyday life. Training is mostly technique based. Effectiveness trumps aesthetics to a large degree.

The subtext of this discussion to me appears to be that people want to be valued for the choices they make and the work they put into their choices. The designation of "athlete" is a validation of that (unless you are a snobbish, effete dancer), so everyone wants to be called one. There is also a bias against the valuation of aesthetics over other things.

My ideal art/sport is one where aesthetics and effectiveness both have their place. I personally don't care to distinguish whether contestants strive against one another directly, or indirectly, or whether they perform or not.
When I watch Pawina Thongsuk in the clip of the 2004 Olympics that Dastardly recently posted, I see the perfect fusion of aesthetics and effectiveness (of course you people who know more about weightlifting than I will probably have critiques I can't even see).

I have the same reaction when I watch clips of a 74 year old Mifune Sensei (10th Dan in Judo) perform an effortless Kin Katsugi with a much heavier and stronger uke during a randori demonstration.

Art or sport? Both, and the fusion is magnificent.

[Scrofula]

I mostly agree with Gwynn. Competitive physical art and competitive sport are usually pretty easy to distinguish between. If the judging criteria are aesthetic, it's art. If the criteria are performance oriented, it's sport.

I don't think it makes sense to classify all of martial arts as one or the other. Some martial arts competitions are aesthetically oriented, and these are, well, arts. But judo, boxing etc. are combat sports (though at least in judo, the standards are arguably becoming more and more subjective).

In a non-competitive setting, it's harder to judge. What do you call it when somebody practices judo non-competitively?

I don't like the idea of mixing aesthetic and performance-based criteria in a single competition. Most sports have aesthetic appeal -- Mutlu's clean, Mifune's o guruma, Tendulkar's straight drive -- but that's not the point. They look good because they are good, sound, efficient movements, and that's what makes them great.

[Gwynn]

They look good because they are good, sound, efficient movements, and that's what makes them great.

This is my opinion as well.

[Gary Gibson]

So the skintight, revealing outfits have nothing to do with it?

In seriousness: recent threads got me all over YouTube watching both men's and women's competitive weightlifting. I love watching gymnasts do things that I have a hard time believing that human beings can do, but even that pales in comparison to the beauty of hoisting seemingly impossible weights overhead in a fluid, rapid total body effort. There's just something so primal, powerful and right about it, especially when the women do it.