Uneven Squat - Ass shifts to the Right

[bowdirk]

Hi Coach,

My son and I started the SS program over the weekend, I had done it about 3 years ago and got to the 'Novice' level in all lifts, but am starting over again now.

In observing my sons squat (20 years old, 6'2", 210lbs, untrained) I noticed that halfway up his ass noticeably shifts to the right as he stood up while squatting 95 lbs... Ugly

Honestly it is scary to watch, it looks like a back injury about to happen.

A better description would be to say that as he pushes up, it appears his right leg, glute, etc. is stronger, and his pelvis tilts with the right side being a half inch or so higher than the left.

What is the best way to correct this? Reset to bodyweight or empty bar squats until he can lock down the ass-wiggle on the way up? Would a chiropractic visit to check alignment be a good idea? Are there other exercises that should be performed to try and get his strength and/or flexibility corrected?

There was also a little of the ass-shift on deadlifts, but not quite as pronounced.

Any suggestions are most appreciated!

Bowdirk

[Mark Rippetoe]

Watch his knees as he does this. They will be asymmetrical. Fix this asymmetry and his hips will straighten out. 95 pounds is not enough to hurt his back, but it needs to be fixed before he goes up.

[MilkEnthusiast]

Rip, this does not seem to be an overly rare instance. I have had the same problem, and have even read about others experiencing it on this board.

Emphasizing knees out has defintely helped me - although it's very difficult to concentrate on this and hip drive at the same time. Kind of a lot of focus on I guess.

Do you think the problem can be assisted by any stretches? I understand that if it's strictly a strength imbalance issue then focus on correct form is the answer, but could there be a flexibility component as well? Perhaps an old injury or just a tightness that it causing the issue.

Thanks for the read.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Stretches don't help anything that is not caused by a flexibility asymmetry. And squats performed symmetrically will fix this as well.

[blowdpanis]

Stretches don't help anything that is not caused by a flexibility asymmetry. And squats performed symmetrically will fix this as well.

I think this kind of depends on what the problem is, though. I struggled with this for literally years before finally being diagnosed with a retroverted right hip (there are manual tests for this, and it was confirmed via x-ray). Much like an anatomical leg length discrepancy, the angle at which your femur projects from the acetabulum can be different on one side versus the other, such that one side is comparatively externally or internally rotated vs. the other at the same foot angle.

Unlike a leg length discrepancy, though, there isn't a very clear fix for this. You can angle your feet differently such that the "effective" hip angle is the same, but the balance of forces still seems to produce some measure of asymmetry almost no matter what you do. Assuming it's not actually hurting you, I think some people are just stuck squatting a bit asymmetric, honestly.

After being diagnosed with this, I'm actually curious how common it is in the general population. I had certainly heard of leg length discrepancies before, but I don't hear a lot of people talk about variances in femoral version before I encountered this.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'm not aware of having seen it before. Who diagnosed you, and how did they know? Apparently the guy was experienced.

[pbjorge12]

I have the ass shifting problem as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0efCU3kdBg

I got a powerlifting coach to give me a diagnosis and he suggested that it might be a "pelvic upslip" (He had something similar).

He suggested box squats (Westside-style) where I really focused on reaching back with my left side. Videos seem to suggest its helping to keep a more even pelvis.

I'll be going to a chiropractor to get his opinion in a week or so. It seems their are a number of people with this issue (I see a few more threads using the search function).

[blowdpanis]

I'm not aware of having seen it before. Who diagnosed you, and how did they know? Apparently the guy was experienced.

I'm in a doctoral program for PT (see previous thread complaining), and I had a few of my instructors examine me. I realize the fact that they're PT's might be a strike against them, but the primary guy who diagnosed this is the good kind of PT (i.e. mostly sensible advice, has worked with athletes for > 20 years etc). He performed "Craig's test," which seems to have a reasonable description at the following:

http://ahn.mnsu.edu/athletictraining/spata/lbmodule/specialtests.html

However, I've realized for a while that I'm a mutant of some sort. I can externally rotate my right hip so far that my foot is literally > 180 degrees, but can't internally rotate it nearly as far as the left. As a youngster I'd occasionally walk with my right leg "backwards" like this to freak people out, as it looks like I disarticulated my hip or something.

After being diagnosed by the PT, I went to my brother in law, who is a competent sports medicine doc (DO), and had x-rays done to be sure. Sure enough, the various bony prominences on the upper right femur look to be at a different angle relative to the right at a fixed foot angle (slightly internally rotated on both sides, standard A/P view). There are actually some general differences in shape throughout the entire right pelvis vs. the left, actually.

I can get my squat symmetric to the point where the average person probably wouldn't notice, but a discerning eye can probably tell. Between the choice of squatting a little asymmetrically and just not squatting, I'd rather take the former. It is what it is, and minus gross reconstructive surgery, I'm not sure there is a real solution.

Anyways, I just posted this for people to be aware of it, because, like a leg length discrepancy, it's one of those variances that will obviously have implications for bilateral stuff involving the legs.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I have the ass shifting problem as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0efCU3kdBg

I got a powerlifting coach to give me a diagnosis and he suggested that it might be a "pelvic upslip" (He had something similar).


Look at your knees and tell me what you see.

And that's good info, bdp.

[gordonrumble]

I thought it might be interesting to mention my personal experiences with a similar issue. A few years ago, I was in an accident that broke my left talus and required surgery (two screws). I was on crutches for five months, and my left leg experienced some muscle atrophy. As a result, when I began squatting I had my right leg stronger than my left, which became an issue. I got a couple of back injuries, one setting me back a few weeks, the other only two weeks, and I also got some kind of ligament pain in the outside of my right knee.

I opened up my copy of SS, and it was mentioned that imbalances couple be evened out (flexibility, strength) over time with attention to form. With some work and another read of the book, I managed to get my knees tracking evenly and my weight centered, which has prevented further back injury and slightly helped with the right knee pain (which is slow to recover, but seems to be doing so). What Rip says works.

Oh yeah, and thanks for writing the book. Looks like it saved my back and knees.

[elVarouza]

If y'all are having trouble keeping the knees in place perhaps trying the "open your groin" cue may help. I remember I too had problems with asymmetries in the squat and it never felt 'just right' when I was thinking of shoving the knees out hard. It got to the point where I'd be trying to shove a knee out at the expense of keeping a foot flat on the floor. Thinking about opening up the groin and keeping it open through the movement until lockout really made a difference for me. It was much easier to feel the adductors stretching on the eccentric and contributing to the hip extension on the concentric, and it helped keep my knees symmetrical. YMMV.

[pbjorge12]

Look at your knees and tell me what you see.

And that's good info, bdp.

They are in fact asymmetrical.

http://i50.tinypic.com/5btv0o.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/1jooep.jpg (Lines are the same length and angle. Just reversed and starting from the same point on my ankle)

Why is this?

The one thought that occurred to me is that perhaps one of my knees is tracking further past my toes than the other. This would cause an asymmetry for sure. I also recently (2 months ago) had an injury around the anterior tibialis' insertion point (hopefully this makes sense. I'm poor with anatomy). I couldn't walk for a few days but then started squatting and it healed within a week. Could this be causing a flexibility issue?


More than likely I'm completely wrong... Please enlighten me. I hate box squats.

[pbjorge12]

Or maybe I just need a lift under my shorter hip?

I'm lost.

[Smiler Grogan]

If it doesn't fix itself with symmetrical squatting, I don't think having a chiropracter check for some structural assymetry could hurt. I didn't know until I was 24 years old, after playing multiple sports from 6 yrs old through college, that I had an extra vertebrae (L-6) that causes my hips to tilt pretty significantly down to the right, causing all kinds of differences in muscle length/tightness, spinal column is twisted to the left 1/8th turn, right femur is always rotated further out than the left, etc.
I don't know, something to think about. The chiropracter took x-rays and things started to make sense.

[LHPoulin]

I'm in a doctoral program for PT (see previous thread complaining), and I had a few of my instructors examine me. I realize the fact that they're PT's might be a strike against them, but the primary guy who diagnosed this is the good kind of PT (i.e. mostly sensible advice, has worked with athletes for > 20 years etc). He performed "Craig's test," which seems to have a reasonable description at the following:

http://ahn.mnsu.edu/athletictraining/spata/lbmodule/specialtests.html

However, I've realized for a while that I'm a mutant of some sort. I can externally rotate my right hip so far that my foot is literally > 180 degrees, but can't internally rotate it nearly as far as the left. As a youngster I'd occasionally walk with my right leg "backwards" like this to freak people out, as it looks like I disarticulated my hip or something.

After being diagnosed by the PT, I went to my brother in law, who is a competent sports medicine doc (DO), and had x-rays done to be sure. Sure enough, the various bony prominences on the upper right femur look to be at a different angle relative to the right at a fixed foot angle (slightly internally rotated on both sides, standard A/P view). There are actually some general differences in shape throughout the entire right pelvis vs. the left, actually.

I can get my squat symmetric to the point where the average person probably wouldn't notice, but a discerning eye can probably tell. Between the choice of squatting a little asymmetrically and just not squatting, I'd rather take the former. It is what it is, and minus gross reconstructive surgery, I'm not sure there is a real solution.

Anyways, I just posted this for people to be aware of it, because, like a leg length discrepancy, it's one of those variances that will obviously have implications for bilateral stuff involving the legs.

i can do that with both my feet, past 180 degrees. it's pretty amazing. also, instead of sitting "indian style," i prefer to sit without my legs crossed. i had to go to physical therapy for a work related injury a couple years ago and the PT noted it. said he'd never seen anyone able to do that to as large a degree as i can.

[Adam Wood]

My girlfriend had this problem when she was learning to squat:
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=13204

Rear view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA23zbm_pEs)

3/4 rear view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSNWUaSyUpA)

Sometimes her pelvis would move in a complete circle on the way up. Rip said it would sort itself out as she got stronger, and he was right. Even after laying off training for a month, last night's squats showed correct depth and only a very slight pelvic wiggle which will be gone after a few workouts.

If your son doesn't have a condition like bdp's or a short leg, liberal use of the best squat cue ever, "knees out", should take care of it.

[bowdirk]

Thanks to all who have posted, I have been lurking for a while, and knew this was the place to go.

What I see in the video, especially on the second set performed where the camera is in front, is that he right knee moves in an inch or 2 at the very start of the upward motion which is what probably drives the right side of the pelvis up first, causing the asymetrical position of the pelvis.

The video from the back looks a lot like my son's movement. The right side of the pelvis is up higher than the left.

We will work on knee position and stability before moving up in weight.

Thanks again,
Bowdirk

[Mark Rippetoe]

They are in fact asymmetrical.Why is this?

The one thought that occurred to me is that perhaps one of my knees is tracking further past my toes than the other. This would cause an asymmetry for sure.


They are either anatomically asymmetrical, or you are using them asymmetrically. This picture shows what could either be a short left tibia or a more adducted right femur. I can't tell from here. If your tibias are the same length, the asymmetry is there because you're not using your knees correctly. Shove your right knee out more when you squat and the asymmetry will go away if it's your form, or shim your left foot about a half inch if it's a length issue.