Louise Fox, Female powerlifter

[OITW]

As I've been settling into my new land, receiving lectures from her majesty's constables on what will happen to me if I'm caught with a knife (locking blade, automatic jail time, three inches or longer, automatic jail time), if I respond to an attacker with more force than he attacks me with (automatic jail time), or without the tax disc in my windshield (fine the Hell out of me, but apparently no jail time), I realized I lived just 15 minutes from this young lady's gym:

http://www.louisefoxpowerlifting.com/Photo_Gallery.php

Kinda inspiring, although her gym had nothing in it my free ones don't already have (and they're missing the same things, too). But looking at some of her vids I was a little surprised at the DLs. It's not that her back curls, it's that she never seems to set with her hips down and shoulders up in the first place, instead going straight to full curl and then somehow straightening with the weight, albeit with what looks like hitches in the lifts above 140kg. Thoughts? Otherwise, I can't argue with success.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You have apparently moved to a terribly fucked up country:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/6957682/Myleene-Klass-warned-by-police-after-scaring-off-intruders-with-knife.html

I just hope Ms. Fox can make it worthwhile.

[lastditch]

I moved out of England 14 years ago. I sometimes think about going back and then I read stuff like this and change my mind.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6956044.ece

[OITW]

Hmm, I was at least trying to focus on DLs. But WTH, the Klass business has gotten a lot of publicity, and the Hussain story isn't as clean self-defense as it looks. The home invaders were obviously known to the family, and known in the neighborhood, and knew the family was at Friday prayers, but were surprised at an early return. They had knives and were tying the family up when a teenage son escaped. Interestingly, the first responders were other men of the family, not the cops, and the invaders obviously feared the other men of the family more and fled. Untied, Hussain ran one of the invaders down in the street, approximately a hundred meters from his house, and then laid into him with the cricket bat. Now, if you're only allowed to use force when you are threatened with force, it's hard to defend yourself in court when you ran the bastard down as he fled. I could see a fine, maybe 90 days, but 20-some years has even got MPs yammering that the law needs to be changed.

By contrast, down in Texas a particular former SEAL, who finds it nearly impossible to sleep at night, had his dog shot by some yahoos. He grabbed his weapon, and pursued for 60-some miles, across the country line IIRC--and held the punks until sheriffs arrived, never discharging his firearm. If Hussain had stood over his punk until the cops arrived, he would have been clear.

Okay, class, compare and contrast. So much for any discussion of DL form.

[PMDL]

I love roundbacking the shit out of my deadlifts.

[Powerlifter]

Lousie came to train with me over the x-mas period, she has tremendous determination and courage but has never trainind with lifters before.

She does start the pull with her lower back which I corrected, her bench is strong however not quite wide enough to incorporate the lats and shoulder girdle efficiently and her squat was terrible.

She will do very very well soon enough, she already pulled 165kgs at 55kg bodyweight so you get an idea of her power - lovel lass too, tiny little thing lol

[knkavo]

Well Ms. Klass looks like a dangerous and violent criminal type to me, so I am not suprised the police warned her not to frighten poor little burglars in the future.

When I lived in the UK, my housemate (a huge powerful kid built like some kind of Viking, never touched a weight in his life though) caught two burglars in the house when he came back from grocery shopping one day. He knocked one of them out, the other escaped after being kicked around the house like a rag doll. My friend then handcuffed the unconscious one to the cooker, and proceeded to beat the shit out of him. The escapee called the cops (?!) who arrived at the house to find the above-mentioned S&M scene in progress.

After watching for a few minutes they freed the burglar, warned him that if he didn't say that he fell down the stairs when running away from the cops that they would give him back to my friend and forget about him, suggested to my friend that he consider a career in the constabulary, and left laughing.

This was 12 years ago... since then things have obviously gone down hill.

In Greece, thank God, if some fucker breaks into your house, you can kill him. You don't have to wait for him to maim and rape you and your family first.

[Patrick]

In Greece, thank God, if some fucker breaks into your house, you can kill him. You don't have to wait for him to maim and rape you and your family first.

Where I come from it just isn't polite to refuse to offer your family up for a good raping. Agree to disagree.

[Dastardly]

You have apparently moved to a terribly fucked up country:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/celebritynews/6957682/Myleene-Klass-warned-by-police-after-scaring-off-intruders-with-knife.html

I just hope Ms. Fox can make it worthwhile.

Mark Rippetoe talking about myleene klass. the world has indeed come full circle.

[knkavo]

Where I come from it just isn't polite to refuse to offer your family up for a good raping. Agree to disagree.

Well society could do with a little more politeness, that's true...

[Rorschach]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8451877.stm

The charge of carrying an offensive weapon is found in the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 but refers only to public places, says criminal lawyer Julian Young, of Julian Young & Co Solicitors.

...

Hertfordshire Police say they didn't tell Klass off at all about her knife-waving. "Officers spoke to reassure the home owner, talked through security and gave advice in relation to the importance of reporting suspicious activity immediately to allow officers to act appropriately," says a spokeswoman.
"For clarification, at no point were any official warnings or words of advice given to the home owner in relation to the use of a knife or offensive weapon in their home."




Puts things in a different perspective. ;)
We only have Myleene Klass's word for this, and with all due respect, I have no reason to believe her word over that of a police officer.
Sure, it may be a cover-up, but it's more likely she misunderstood, or her agent lied to get a substantial amount of publicity.

[Smack]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8451877.stm

The charge of carrying an offensive weapon is found in the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 but refers only to public places, says criminal lawyer Julian Young, of Julian Young & Co Solicitors.

...

Hertfordshire Police say they didn't tell Klass off at all about her knife-waving. "Officers spoke to reassure the home owner, talked through security and gave advice in relation to the importance of reporting suspicious activity immediately to allow officers to act appropriately," says a spokeswoman.
"For clarification, at no point were any official warnings or words of advice given to the home owner in relation to the use of a knife or offensive weapon in their home."




Puts things in a different perspective. ;)
We only have Myleene Klass's word for this, and with all due respect, I have no reason to believe her word over that of a police officer.
Sure, it may be a cover-up, but it's more likely she misunderstood, or her agent lied to get a substantial amount of publicity.

It's always funny when foreigners on internet forums tell us how fucked up our country is when it turns out the stories they're using are totally taken out of context at best, or totally made up at worst.

[Rorschach]

Indeed. That said, after watching Fox News, I appreciate that America is a lawless third world country with terrorists and violent biker gangs murdering people on the streets.
Can't be blamed for being to busy to check up on our news sources.

[OITW]

Rorschach and Smack, as I walked along the nearby river yesterday I was met by a couple, brother and sister, who engaged me in conversation. On discovering I was a Yank, she immediately began with, "Don't believe those people who say this country is lost. Don't believe them. There's still so much wonderful about this country, even though Brown's a complete disaster." I work with a nice MOD lady, who seems a bit tetchy to everything American about me--just why would I want a pickup-truck, after all? I really try not to say anything that would offend my British hosts, that's impolite. But there is an elephant in the room, whether or not you want to talk about it.

None of us know exactly what happened at Klass' house, except that a number of "youths" were apparently on her property, she felt threatened and waved a knife at them from the window, also calling the cops. Now, did the cops give her a lecture about waving her knife in the window? Who knows? I find her as believable as the cops. Why did the story gain so much traction? Because it was very believable to the mass of Britons who heard it.

I read this morning of a man who was knifed to death by home instruders. Knifed in his own house. He had some sort of disability kept him from working, said the article. He's only allowed to match force--knife on knife. A man with a disability in a knife fight with an 18 year old? Sounds fair to me. How does that sound to you?

Both stories have one thing in common--both involve weaker victims (or potential victim, in Klass' case), who in no way could match the force of their attackers. They are expected to do what? Lay back and enjoy the rape? Leave the doors unlocked at night so the home intruders don't have to wake you up?

There's some wonderful camera footage of two men in drag cleaning the clocks of some sods who had been drunk and assaulting people along a busy thoroughfare for hours. For hours. The footage shows them harassing hitting people over a long period. Then they made the mistake of attacking the two men in drag, who happened to be cage fighters out on a lark before training for a match. Two punches, two sods on the street out cold. Then the cops arrived.

As for the barrister's comments, are you aware that the inside of your car is a public space? That if she was outside her house, on a porch or walkway, but still on her property, that a cop or judge could consider her to be in a public space, especially given that there were other people there, the reported "youths?"

This is old. There are real and fundamental differences between American and English law. Sadly, what was meant to be good in English law, limiting the escalation of violence, ultimately inhibits the right of the individual to defend himself. Worse, the nanny state insists that it alone has the right to defend its subjects, and God help you if you use more force in defending yourself than some local magistrate thinks you are allowed to. That extra kick to make sure he doesn't get up and knife you in the back can get you jail time here. Good or bad, that's a real difference, and you can't blame an American for not looking at that as a good thing.

Sorry to bother you, ciao.

[Rorschach]

I wasn't commenting on the relative merits of US and UK law regarding self defence, I was commenting on the media, and their portrayal of everything in the worst, most melodramatic light in order to make money.
Don't bother talking to the police force involved, and evaluating the validity of the witness, just print a knee-jerk reaction and stir up public anger.

Why did the story gain so much traction? Because the media likes to stir shit up. Did the newspapers do even the slightest bit of research, perhaps explain the position of the law to the public to avoid confusion? Did they hell.
Eye-catching headlines sell newspapers, even if they're bollocks.

As to whether or not firearms should be legalised (which a lot of these trans-atlantic discussions on self-defense boil down to), we could argue that until we're blue in the face, but I doubt anyone's going to change anyone's mind. Cultural difference, innit.
I personally hate guns (the guns themselves, not necessarily people who own them), and feel a lot safer without Joe Public carrying one around (myself included). Yes, there is the outside chance that I may be robbed at gunpoint, but I'll take my chances.
I can understand if you've grown up with guns being a part of your life, then you may have a different view on things.

[Smack]

It was mainly the Daily Mail and other sensationalist sources which picked up on the story, not reliable/trustworthy ones.

[OITW]

Agreed, then. Now let's get to work on getting Rip over his phobia and over the pond to do a SSS here.

The differences on guns are sometimes humorous. I had to wait outside the gate of my base, and some young female of about 18 came to sit beside me and wait for her chums. Some military police pulled in, M9s in thigh holsters, body armor and M4s slung over their back. Her eyes grew wide as saucers. "Are those guns?" she asked, disbelievingly.

Yes, they are.

"Do they have bullets in them?"

I hope so. Not much good without them, I replied.

"Would they actually shoot somebody with them?"

I would hope so, that's what they are trained to do.

"Oh, my, I guess so."

The incident really brought home to me the difference between an American, who would only be concerned if the weapon was brandished or mishandled, and a Briton, who was genuinely concerned that there were even guns present.

Should we meet, first pint's on me.

[George Noble]

Klass said she got warned, the police said she didn't. That is the situation no matter who reported it. Normally in such a situation we look for someone with a vested interest - a reason to lie. Maybe Klass is broadening her horizons and will release a new Gangsta Rap record, and is trying to build up "fuck da po-lice" sentiment among her fan base. Maybe the police are lying about not being complete cretins. This wouldn't be a first either.

The police are not above making shit up, or they don't seem to be. I would research the law about responding to force with no more than the force applied to you. Common assault is merely the threat of an attack, and responding to it with actual violence would almost certainly come under the heading of reasonable force. Even more blatantly, I'm pretty sure people have been acquitted on the grounds of reasonable force having used lethal force before. That force is obviously more than what the attacker applied to them, otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to initiate lethal force until after they were dead. Unless the OP, like Myelene Klass is an unscrupulous liar (since when do beautiful women lie, anyway?), I think the police are making shit up in this respect aswell. But I might be wrong.

What Hussain did would have been illegal in any civilised country, probably including Texas. He wasn't recovering property. He wasn't protecting himself or anyone else. He was violently punishing someone without due process.

Here is actual, real news that has not gained much ground in the "reliable/trustworthy" media, but is a fact nontheless: Section 44, which has been systematically abused since its inception, has been ruled illegal by the European Court of Human Rights. The gov't are appealing the decision and ignoring it in the interim.

[OITW]

Why would the police lie? Maybe because some officer actually did warn Klass, and the department doesn't want to look that stupid? Wouldn't be the first time.

The MOD rep who lectured me left me with the sense that there is a lot of room for interpretation in the law regarding knives, pointed objects, public places and the necessity of having the implement for professional purposes. Quite probably in most cases the local law exercises competent judgement, but there's always the weasel who hides behind the codebook to bully, or the Zero Tolerance type. My leatherman, entirely legal in the rest of the world, falls into that grey area, despite the blade not locking and not exceeding three inches, never mind the "pointed objects" of screwdriver, etc. Is it part of my professional kit, being in the forces, we asked, and he demurred again. Getting him to clearly define the difference between public and private wasn't much more helpful, although maybe that was just him. Any barristers here would like to clarify that, I'd appreciate it.

And could you explain Section 44? I've seen no news of this ruling in my usual round-up of European news.

[George Noble]

Section 44 of (I think) The Terrorism Act 2000 gave police stop and search powers over anyone within a given (arbitrary) area without the burden of reasonable suspicion. This entire act has become famous for being used to investigate people for meaningless things which quite blatantly have nothing to do with terrorism, such as having sheds without planning permission or peacefully protesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453878.stm

The BBC link isn't loading for me. Here is a link which may or may not contain additional information: http://bastardoldholborn.blogspot.com/2010/01/section-44-stop-and-search-illegal.html

Saliently: # Number of people amongst the 360,000 stopped under s. 44 and found to have any terrorist material or links: 0

[Rorschach]

Klass is going on a big publicity drive at the moment, so has plenty of motivation to lie/exagerate, or at least her agent does on her behalf. Her name and face have been plastered all over the place, alongside an eye-catching headline and a story that puts her in a positive light (ommitting her bad judgement call). Mission accomplished.

While the police are far from perfect, all things equal I'm still going to trust their word over a random member of the public.

[George Noble]

OK, but what "bad judgement call"?

I will trust the public over the police, since the public haven't been engaged in what seems to be a deliberate drive to destroy everyone's trust in them.

[Rorschach]

The bad judgement call was only reporting the trespass well after it had happened. The chance of them catching someone when they fled hours ago is fairly slim.

If you dislike the police, and think they're fundamentally untrustworthy then fair enough, that's your call.
Personally, I'll trust someone who's made the conscious decision to do a difficult, stressful and dangerous job in order to protect the community, over someone I know nothing of except that they have an ulterior motive for getting their name in the media.
I don't trust the police unanimously, but it does frustrate me when I see melodramatic, onesided and inaccurate articles in the press.
I guess "Person Sees Two Trespassers" wouldn't sell as many newspapers.
Whatever happened to critical thinking?

[OITW]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7034796/Munir-Hussain-father-who-attacked-intruder-freed-from-prison.html

Conviction not overturned, but Hussain won't serve jail time now.