Testosterone

[tennisgod]

I started lifting last year at 49 yo and my testosterone was 4.7 nmol/L (don't know if you U.S. people use the same units), when the normal range is between 10 and 28. Essentially, I was running on fumes.
As I got into lifting, I took blood tests periodically and the levels rose to 6.7, 7.5, and my final test 4 months ago was 9.9... still low but marginally so. I am extremely happy and will take another test soon to see. The difference is very noticeable... my sex drive has increased, and morning hard-ons are not uncommon.
What is interesting is my endocrinologist (who is a small Asian guy). He smiled when I said that I am convinced the weight training has provided the test level increases... which told me that he did not believe it. He said he would like to see a study linking test levels to weight training, to which I said that there is probably a thousand of those. So this guy just doesn't get it.

Anyone else have tales of testosterone increases? (especially the older guys).

[Sami]

I started lifting last year at 49 yo and my testosterone was 4.7 nmol/L (don't know if you U.S. people use the same units), when the normal range is between 10 and 28. Essentially, I was running on fumes.
As I got into lifting, I took blood tests periodically and the levels rose to 6.7, 7.5, and my final test 4 months ago was 9.9... still low but marginally so. I am extremely happy and will take another test soon to see. The difference is very noticeable... my sex drive has increased, and morning hard-ons are not uncommon.
What is interesting is my endocrinologist (who is a small Asian guy). He smiled when I said that I am convinced the weight training has provided the test level increases... which told me that he did not believe it. He said he would like to see a study linking test levels to weight training, to which I said that there is probably a thousand of those. So this guy just doesn't get it.

Anyone else have tales of testosterone increases? (especially the older guys).

Why don't you go on Androgen Replacement Therapy if it's that low?

[misspelledgeoff]

this is TMI but I swear to god my figs are more plump. wifey agrees, though it took some convincing to get her to verify my findings. I'd actually like to get tested to see where I am.

[tennisgod]

Why don't you go on Androgen Replacement Therapy if it's that low?

My GP thinks I should, but the endocrinologist (and myself especially now that I am 9.9) thinks not. I would like to see how far the lifting will take me before I start messing around.
Also, I understand that the naturally produced test may decrease if external test is used, so I am afraid.

[tennisgod]

this is TMI but I swear to god my figs are more plump. wifey agrees, though it took some convincing to get her to verify my findings. I'd actually like to get tested to see where I am.

I think it's a good thing to get tested regardless. The number of bad things associated with low test levels is a mighty big scary list.

LOL on the wifey! My girlfriend thinks I have no issues at all, which is a good thing. She said she's scared if my levels go above 10!

[Dastardly]

there is a hormone H.c.G which is actually obtained from urine of pregnant women.

When injected into men it increases the testosterone produced in their very own testes.

It is also a hormone used in large scale fish farming, it makes fish grow big.

Hormones are both amazing and weird.

[Sami]

Come on man, you're 49 years old. You won't get anywhere near what you were as a younger man. You've been lifting a year and you're still below the normal range. Yes, you've seen an improvement, but I don't think you'll ever get to the top of that range.

If you think you feel good now, you won't believe how much better it can get. Everything improves. Everything.

As far as your naturally produced test, yes this will be decreasing. But it's decreasing anyway with age. You can't really stop this.

If your GP is willing to prescribe it now, jump on it. If you don't like what you find, jump off. But keep in close contact with your endocrinologist and GP to monitor everything. Especially the prostate. The prostate thrives in test. That doesn't necessarily mean prostate cancer, but one can still get benign growth. But enlargement of the prostate is another fact of getting older. Every male gets and enlarged prostate with age.

Apart from the prostate, oestrogens need to be monitored too. If this is looked after, patients can reduce the possibility of Gynecomastia.

When I reach a certain age, I will definitely be thinking about ART.

[pauld]

There are some ideas here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/magazine/17antiaging-t.html?ref=magazine&pagewanted=all

The hormone injected to stimulate your own testosterone is called HCG. I don't know if you have the $$$ and/or a company like Cenegenics down under, but there are options if you want to do more than just lift heavy.

[tennisgod]

All good points, Sami... I guess I'm afraid cause:
1) I hate doctors and their 15 minute diagnosises without a care in the world for each patient.
2) The fact that once on ART, I have to monitor all these other side effects as you mention (prostate, oestrogens, naturally produced test, etc.). Scary in my book...

I would love to hear of anyone who is on ART and their stories (good/bad)...

[Sami]

All good points, Sami... I guess I'm afraid cause:
1) I hate doctors and their 15 minute diagnosises without a care in the world for each patient.
2) The fact that once on ART, I have to monitor all these other side effects as you mention (prostate, oestrogens, naturally produced test, etc.). Scary in my book...

I would love to hear of anyone who is on ART and their stories (good/bad)...

Yeah, that'd be a good idea. Definitely do your research.

Check out the Super Human Radio podcast, by Carl Lenore, episode #415. He does a whole show on ART and has on a specialist doctor in ART. It's really worth a listen if you're remotely interested. They talk about the pros and cons of different delivery systems etc.

I'm going to be talking about it with my dad. He's almost 60 and I don't think he's on it.

[Webbie]

I read somewhere that if you are driving a sports car and you see an attractive woman walking down the street, you'll get a spike in Testosterone.

[cjangelo]

I would love to hear of anyone who is on ART and their stories (good/bad)...

Wait, 'ART' or 'HRT'?

I thought ART was Active Release Therapy, AKA those vicious massages that make you feel like a new man afterwards.

HRT is hormone replacement therapy, aka, test and hcg injections.

I think we're talking about hormones.

Go to elitefitness.com. Yes, yes, I know, I know. But they have a section devoted to HRT and there are some old-timers who would be helpful. Some of them are some competitive lifters. And some of them will tell you how much they hate having to constantly monitor their hormone level. So while you'll mostly get a "life isn't worth living without testosterone" viewpoint, it'll be somewhat balanced and certainly honest.

Go there, read up, ask questions. PM me for more info.

[Sami]

Wait, 'ART' or 'HRT'?

I thought ART was Active Release Therapy, AKA those vicious massages that make you feel like a new man afterwards.

HRT is hormone replacement therapy, aka, test and hcg injections.


Androgen Replacement Therapy.

More specific for men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_Replacement_Therapy

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"2) The fact that once on ART, I have to monitor all these other side effects as you mention (prostate, oestrogens, naturally produced test, etc.). Scary in my book..."

Not really. You are 49 so you should be getting a prostate exam anyway, and there is no correlation between test and prostate cancer.

Your estrogen and free test will be monitored using a blood test that you get about every 3 months until it levels off or change dosages. Then you get it every year/every other year.

If you go on replacement therapy, you don't really care what your testes are doing unless you want to have more kids. You care only about how much test (between natural and injected sources).

Also, go with the injections (cyponante) do not use the gel. THe gel is fine for women, but the test is converted to dihydrotestosterone in the skin for men.

[Webbie]

"Also, go with the injections (cyponante) do not use the gel. THe gel is fine for women, but the test is converted to dihydrotestosterone in the skin for men.
I have a 64 yr old friend who just got a shot and then went on the gel patch. What's wrong with the gel? He said he did get minor skin irritation so he moves it around often. Once it is converted dihydrotestosterone is it useless?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

DHT is responsible for secondary male sex charcteristics, but not what HRT is designed for; increase recovery, mood, sex drive, energy and fat loss.

I"m on it and my doctor only gives the gel to women.

[Sami]

The gel isn't as effective usually. Can be affected by skin thickness, adipose tissue etc. You have to be extremely careful if you've got kids as this stuff can rub off on them. Gels are easier I suppose.

Injections are great, especially if you can do it yourself at home more frequently. The large long-term doses are a bit up and down and you don't have that same physiological level that is natural.

[George Noble]

You have to be extremely careful if you've got kids as this stuff can rub off on them.

Nobody wants to look like an idiot in front of Dr. House.

[Sami]

Nobody wants to look like an idiot in front of Dr. House.

I probably am an idiot... since I don't watch House. Explain yourself.

[BCS]

It's never lupus.

[Mirage]

This may sound stupid, but sometimes I think my facial hair started growing faster after I started SS.

[quadancer]

My test is much lower than the O.P. and I can't get HRT from my docs; and I've been lifting for 10 years. Eventually, your stuff will drop regardless.




As far as your naturally produced test, yes this will be decreasing. But it's decreasing anyway with age. You can't really stop this.

If your GP is willing to prescribe it now, jump on it. If you don't like what you find, jump off. But keep in close contact with your endocrinologist and GP to monitor everything. Especially the prostate. The prostate thrives in test. That doesn't necessarily mean prostate cancer, but one can still get benign growth. But enlargement of the prostate is another fact of getting older. Every male gets and enlarged prostate with age.

Apart from the prostate, oestrogens need to be monitored too. If this is looked after, patients can reduce the possibility of Gynecomastia.

When I reach a certain age, I will definitely be thinking about ART.

New studies have differing results regarding prostate cancer and test; not as bad as once thought. Not ALL men, but about 50% die with prostate cancer; they just don't die FROM it. So it's still an issue to be checked if you want HRT. If one can get HRT, ART, or even your doc's attention, thrive on it; most aren't nearly up to speed with research, and just lump us all in the "normal for your age" bucket.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Couple of suggestions for getting HRT.

FIrst, when you go to any doctor, look at the pamphlets they have in the waiting room or in th eback near the exam rooms. If you don't see a pamphlet for what you have, you may want to go some where else.

Normal serum test ranges from 350 ng/dl to 1250. A range that big means it's about worthless. Find out the high levels (top 10 percentile for your age or for 25-28 year olds) and say you want that. WHen they say average is fine, ask them if they are an average doctor. If they say they are, say you a better doctor. If they they aren't, say you don't want "Average" test either. Average does mean acceptable.

Find someone that specializes in this. THis can be very expensive, but well worth it.

[PMDL]

If I were over 40, and my test was low, and I could legally get a script for HRT, I'd be on it without a second thought.

RAR HARDCORE BRAH is fine shit, I guess, but I'm not one to let machismo get in the way of a real quality-of-life improvement. Your views certainly may vary, but I don't see the point in letting the decline of my body due to age cripple me as I get older.

[Sami]

If I were over 40, and my test was low, and I could legally get a script for HRT, I'd be on it without a second thought.

RAR HARDCORE BRAH is fine shit, I guess, but I'm not one to let machismo get in the way of a real quality-of-life improvement. Your views certainly may vary, but I don't see the point in letting the decline of my body due to age cripple me as I get older.

+1

[quadancer]

Dang straight, Skippy! But with construction on it's butt, and I'm under VA care, I'm also at their mercy. For now, they're VERY slowly investigating me for chronic fatigue syndrome - this could take years. IF I had money, I'd be looking elsewhere. I'm now trying to get them to let me see their Urologist, but my primary care physician is self-important and thinks I don't need one. She gets one more chance and I can request a new physician.

[Phil Stevens]

I would not use HCG. The old thought of it being a T level restorer has been proven wrong. How it works is it acts in your body like LH which is the signal to produce T in the testes.The LH is usually in a healthy make produced in the pituitary gland. The administration of HCG then makes it so the pituitary doesn't NOT have to do its job. The administration of exogenous hormones makes the body stop its production. It sense there is enough of said hormone in the body so it has no need making it. So that part of your body stops. Your are in a sense making your body secondary hypo-gonadal. meaning the pituitary isnt creating LH. You would start such adminstration if you had a test to find out that the reason you are low if the pituitary ( which many times can mean a tumor) Where as you would start exogenous administration of T if you were primary hypo-gonadal meaning you have LH being produced but your testes are not taking the signal and making T.

Either way, the administration of either WILL create a situation that you no longer produce your own natural T and should only be taken if you have a clinical diagnosed hypo-gonadal condition and then accept you will be on it for life.

In the case of the original poster. i would get further tests to see if you are primary or secondary and then from their take the required actions to regain your levels.

[Sami]

My test is much lower than the O.P. and I can't get HRT from my docs; and I've been lifting for 10 years. Eventually, your stuff will drop regardless.
That's a bit fucked up. What are their reasons?


New studies have differing results regarding prostate cancer and test; not as bad as once thought. Not ALL men, but about 50% die with prostate cancer; they just don't die FROM it. So it's still an issue to be checked if you want HRT. If one can get HRT, ART, or even your doc's attention, thrive on it; most aren't nearly up to speed with research, and just lump us all in the "normal for your age" bucket.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've recently started discovering this too. I think it stems from the fact that chemically castrating men (stopping all testosterone production) has a 100% success rate, in that they don't die from prostate cancer directly. But they end up suffering from all the other serious side effects from not having any testosterone, and the hell that they are associated with.

But either way, a lot of data and studies are all showing that testosterone levels are in fact NOT causing prostate cancer.

One thing I don't understand is why don't we all get prostate cancer of BPH (benign prostate hyperplasia) when our natural testosterone levels are at their highest, 18-25ish?

[quadancer]

That's a bit fucked up. What are their reasons

Either it's the sluggard speed of the VA, the lack of knowledge in this field, or the self-aggrandizement of the VA docs as knowledgable members of the medical community...and also that they prefer to only treat service related injuries. I take it as a bonus when they do other things for me, such as supplying my prostate and cholesterol meds. I can only TRY to get them to acknowledge other problems, such as aging, a business they aren't really part of.

[FatButWeak]

I believe tennisisgod is correct about SS causing his increase in T levels. The reasoning has to do with the body's feedback loop. Sex hormones like T and estrogen (probably all hormones) are extremely "plugged in" to the feedback mechnaism of the body. If estrogen levels get too high, extra T is produced to maintain a balnce for one's gender. If one begins experiencing higher T levels, her body will strat producing more estorgen. This is why some men get bitch tits when they go on certain types of anabolic drugs -their bodies pump out more estrogen to counterbalance the excessive T in their system, and pubescent girl titties are the result.

If, through heavy weight training, the body senses a need to to adapt and put on more muscle, I would EXPECT an increase in T levels, since this is the body's anabolic hormone. I'll say that again: heavy weight training forces adaptation and T is the body's natural anabolic muscle building hormone. So it is highly appropriate that more T would be synthesised.

Our balls can synthesize plenty of T until we stop asking them to. One way to ask them to stop is to stop lifting heavy weights. Another way is to be done with puberty. It makes sense that the way to "turn on" the "please make more T" switch is to lift heavy weights. If your lying around on the couch every evening watching TV, your not asking your balls to produce anything.

[PMDL]

I love it when people have such an in-depth understanding of physiology. It just shines right through, you know?

[davew]

Our balls can synthesize plenty of T until we stop asking them to. One way to ask them to stop is to stop lifting heavy weights. Another way is to be done with puberty. It makes sense that the way to "turn on" the "please make more T" switch is to lift heavy weights. If your lying around on the couch every evening watching TV, your not asking your balls to produce anything.

Do you think I would be better off asking my balls to produce more testosterone with a formal written letter? Lifting weights seems like it skirts around the issue; I want to be direct with my balls.

Also, in your opinion, do men usually get better results when they ask their balls for more test in the morning or evening? What if they ignore me, when should I re-approach my balls for more testosterone?

Thanks in advance.

[Sami]

Bring them chocol... wait, that's pussy...

[brobinson]

If your lying around on the couch every evening watching TV, your not asking your balls to produce anything.

Unless you're watching porn. And real men don't ask their balls for anything, they tell them! Except when I'm in a cold shower, then they don't listen to anything and they even laugh at me as they go into hiding.

[tennisgod]

Going for my blood test tomorrow. Hoping I can break the magic 10.0 nmol/L mark!

[tennisgod]

... and girl titties are the result.

You mean I can look in the mirror and turn myself on?!? Neat...

[FatButWeak]

I love it when people have such an in-depth understanding of physiology. It just shines right through, you know?

I was going to call you a name (like douchebag), because you are being snotty and snide. But I decided to raise the level of discourse on this board instead.

This is a forum for those who strength train under the protocols established/promulgated by Mark Rippetoe in the books SS2 and PPST2, as well as in his other writings and posts on these forums. Most of the dialogue here is conducted in plain English, not using the lexicon of the various sciences and other professions that tangentially affect the discussion(s). Whenever I encourage someone to read Starting Strength becuase it will be invaluable to their training efforts, I tell them that the book is extremely well written and speaks to the reader in a very smart but not "egg headed" tone, which makes it a pleasure to read despite the fact that sophisticated and esoteric material is being presented. The ability to write like this is a rare skill and I commend Rippetoe, Dr. Kilgore and their editors for achieving it. (For the record - and I add this only because you seem to be the class of ass that makes ad hominem attacks, and, yes I fully realize the incosnitency in calling the poster a douche and a nerd and then castigating him for making ad hominem attacks - I have an MA in English and a JD, and have published two articles of my own in scholarly legal journals, so I know what I am talking about when discussing tone of writing).

Anyway, back to balls.

My post was my attempt to offer a simplified discussion on the body's feedback loop and how testosterone production may be increased by placing greater demands on the endocrine (if this is the corect term with regard to the balls and their production of testosterone) system's production of testosterone. Sort of a "use it or lose it" argument. This theory may not be correct (although I think it may be), but it is not so absurd as to be impossible and prime for ridicule.

Im not sure what part of my earlier post invited your snotty comment, but I suspect it was my simpler language (saying balls instead of testes, for example) and simplified manner of argument and presentation. Even though I may not have written it as well as Rip, your subsequent comments seemed to be attacks on style not substance.

On this forum, you should direct your comments to the substance of the post, not the style, because , yes, not everyone has an in depth understanding of physiology, but that does not mean that their opinion is without value. I think Rip is a geologist, by training, for example. The OP's doctor (with all his training and expertise in physiology) doubts that weight training has increased the OP's testosterone production, yet, there it is. An increase. In the absence of another explanation, my hypothesis is perfectly reasonable: place a greater need for testosterone on the body through weight training, and the body may produce more. Simple, logical and thoroughly in keeping with the body's known form and function.

You and the snickering horde below you should show some humility when discussing matters of strnegth training on this board. Save your elitism for the vegan, jogging, bicycling and crossfit boards you used to frequent. Starting Strength is more democratic and inclusive.

[brobinson]

I will be the first to say I am far from an expert in endocrinology or physiology in general. That being said, I appreciate when people try and put things in layman's terms to help simplify more complex issues. From what I have read on the subject, it's much too complex to simplify it as you have in your conversational ball paragraph.

Everybody on the board does lift heavy weights. It most likely does help with testosterone levels. However, many older men have lowered levels irregardless of activity. We can't tell our hormonal systems how to operate. Lifting can help or hinder test levels if proper recovery is not allowed. Some men have done everything right for years, yet they can't push the "please make more T" switch you mention. For healthy men, who don't have testicular dysfunction, watching TV for a few hours occasionally may be just what they need if cortisol levels are higher than test levels. There are too many factors at play to believe that a single action can "tell" your glands how to respond.

Humor is a part of these forums. Whether you intended the ball conversation to be funny or not, many of us found it so.

PMDL doesn't come off as too sensitive. If you're going to tell him how you feel and mention the name you think he should be called then you might as well go ahead and do so, I'm sure he's get over it:)

[FatButWeak]

brobinson:
I agree, the system is complex and cortisol management is an important part of creating an anabolic profile, so of course, quality time with the remote control has its place. And, of course, there are men who have defective or extremely ancient balls and they can-not produce T.

My comment/hypothesis is limited to men without defective balls: if they lift heavy, that complex of stimuli MAY flip the switch or switches needed to ramp up testosterone production. Of course they system is incredibly complex. But, if something as simple as squatting will reduce the complexity of the situation to irrelevance, why not make the discussion that simple? If I was dx'd with low testosterone (certainly this is a concern as I age) I would rx my self with heavy squats (as the OP appears to have done) to see if that will help. The nice thing about this approach is that it is the most conservative, least invasive and (as we all know) can only have GOOD side effects, i.e. an increase in strength, speed, balance, proprioceptivity, muscular body weight, bone density, etc.

For some, it wont work and they need some meds. Fine. I would agree.

To add to my argument, I ask you - what would you do (or not do) if you wanted to cause the body to decrease T production? I submit that eating a lot of processed carbohydrates, watching television, lying around, getting fat, not looking at women, not lifting heavy weights, etc. would be the way to do that. Doing the opposite of all that may be a way to ramp up T production. That's all. Our bodies secrete T for a reason. Give it the reason, and it may secrete more. Remove the reason and it may secrete less.

[PMDL]

I was going to call you a name (like douchebag), because you are being snotty and snide. But I decided to raise the level of discourse on this board instead.

In other words you're about to throw a long-winded tantrum with lots of writing and little content.


This is a forum for those who strength train under the protocols established/promulgated by Mark Rippetoe in the books SS2 and PPST2, as well as in his other writings and posts on these forums. Most of the dialogue here is conducted in plain English, not using the lexicon of the various sciences and other professions that tangentially affect the discussion(s). Whenever I encourage someone to read Starting Strength becuase it will be invaluable to their training efforts, I tell them that the book is extremely well written and speaks to the reader in a very smart but not "egg headed" tone, which makes it a pleasure to read despite the fact that sophisticated and esoteric material is being presented. The ability to write like this is a rare skill and I commend Rippetoe, Dr. Kilgore and their editors for achieving it. (For the record - and I add this only because you seem to be the class of ass that makes ad hominem attacks, and, yes I fully realize the incosnitency in calling the poster a douche and a nerd and then castigating him for making ad hominem attacks - I have an MA in English and a JD, and have published two articles of my own in scholarly legal journals, so I know what I am talking about when discussing tone of writing).

I was right.


<whining snipped>

On this forum, you should direct your comments to the substance of the post, not the style, because , yes, not everyone has an in depth understanding of physiology, but that does not mean that their opinion is without value. I think Rip is a geologist, by training, for example. The OP's doctor (with all his training and expertise in physiology) doubts that weight training has increased the OP's testosterone production, yet, there it is. An increase. In the absence of another explanation, my hypothesis is perfectly reasonable: place a greater need for testosterone on the body through weight training, and the body may produce more. Simple, logical and thoroughly in keeping with the body's known form and function.

Note to lawyer: when you're dealing with scientific premises that have hard data backing them, you don't just get to word-dance your way out of a crappy argument by playing victim and writing a brief.

Relying on analogy to convey a point to a layman is contingent on you understanding the base material sufficiently to create a correct analogy in the first place. This should be an obvious point, but everybody thinks science is "shit to look up on the Wiki", as opposed to something you spend quite a bit of years learning, in both content and methodology.

For two, if I'd meant to insult you, I'd have just done it. As it was, you can take the smart-ass comment to be a jibe at the sound-bite science that heads straight down the Bro Highway.

If you understand the relevant research and are versed enough in it to create analogies, by all means. Drinking a bottle of gin, writing some flowery prose and discussing how ATP works leads to horseshit.

There's nothing wrong in maintaining a little rigor. Otherwise you get "broad time and modal domains".


You and the snickering horde below you should show some humility when discussing matters of strnegth training on this board. Save your elitism for the vegan, jogging, bicycling and crossfit boards you used to frequent. Starting Strength is more democratic and inclusive.

Who keeps bringing these butt-hurt @fitters over here? Seriously?

[FatButWeak]

I am not formally trained in science. Touche. I suppose that disqualifies me from drinking a bottle of gin and expressing a hypothesis educated only by own experiences and (admittedly imperfect) knowledge. I am not a crossfitter and never was (presumably that is what @fitter means?).

There is an old nasty saying: arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics: nobody really wins and in the end, you are all retarded.

[astanto2]

relying on "logic" in lieu of the scientific method gave us the homunculus and preformationism. Which was neat.

[Chewie_jrc]

Slightly off-topic. I guess I'm safe in assuming that "@fit" is crossfit, but I just don't get the ampersand. What's the significance? I must know, I want to be in on the joke too!!!

I'm liking the discourse btw.

[quadancer]

I just wish my squat routine and all the heavy stuff I do would elicit a hormonal response that I could feel...but alas, FBW is correct - you reach an age where it either comes exogenously or not at all.
But at least you don't have to do all that sex work and stuff.

[davew]

There is an old nasty saying: arguing on the internet is like the Special Olympics: nobody really wins and in the end, you are all retarded.

Actually, it's "even if you win, you're still retarded." Your way doesn't really make sense.

Just sayin'.

[Sami]

Actually, it's "even if you win, you're still retarded." Your way doesn't really make sense.

Just sayin'.

You win. ;)

[tennisgod]

Got my Test results from Fridays test:
8.8 nmol/L overall
248 free Test

Not good... last test was 9.9 (Oct)

Damn... here come the girl titties.

[cjangelo]

I would not use HCG. The old thought of it being a T level restorer has been proven wrong. How it works is it acts in your body like LH which is the signal to produce T in the testes.The LH is usually in a healthy make produced in the pituitary gland. The administration of HCG then makes it so the pituitary doesn't NOT have to do its job. The administration of exogenous hormones makes the body stop its production. It sense there is enough of said hormone in the body so it has no need making it. So that part of your body stops. Your are in a sense making your body secondary hypo-gonadal. meaning the pituitary isnt creating LH. You would start such adminstration if you had a test to find out that the reason you are low if the pituitary ( which many times can mean a tumor) Where as you would start exogenous administration of T if you were primary hypo-gonadal meaning you have LH being produced but your testes are not taking the signal and making T.

Either way, the administration of either WILL create a situation that you no longer produce your own natural T and should only be taken if you have a clinical diagnosed hypo-gonadal condition and then accept you will be on it for life.

In the case of the original poster. i would get further tests to see if you are primary or secondary and then from their take the required actions to regain your levels.

I've heard this before from someone, but I'd love to know where you heard it. This information is in stark contrast to the way HCG is presented (sold) to folks on the anabolics boards. Maybe I'm missing something, but HCG is promoted there as a jump-start to natural testosterone production. I think endocrinologists would disagree, as you seem to do.

So if you're in your twenties and want to run a cycle, you come off and pretty much just have to wait until your balls start working again, right? You have anti-estrogens to help and that's about it, am I wrong?

[PMDL]

The rationale I heard, which made sense to me, was to use HCG in small doses during a cycle and especially towards the end to reverse any testicular atrophy.

In large amounts, Phil's exactly right - it's just going to make the problem worse by messing w/ central signaling. However I think that small doses just to get the boys working again (if you've had any major shut-down, depending on the person and the drugs you ran you may not), and more sensitive to the normal hormone loops that you're trying to re-establish w/ anti-E and anti-aromatase drugs, may be useful.

I'm talking something like 500IU twice a week, or something of that nature anyway. Much more than that is likely hurting more than it helps. And if you didn't get any shrinkage, you probably shouldn't mess with it.

[cjangelo]

The rationale I heard, which made sense to me, was to use HCG in small doses during a cycle and especially towards the end to reverse any testicular atrophy.

Okay, so use HCG while on cycle rather than as post-cycle therapy.

[tennisgod]

My test is much lower than the O.P. and I can't get HRT from my docs; and I've been lifting for 10 years. Eventually, your stuff will drop regardless.

Quadancer: Do you mind if I ask you your age and TT levels? Thanks.

What would you guys do if you were me? Would you take further tests to determine whether primary/secondary (as Phil suggested), or 'demand' TT enhancers from the endocrinologist? Thanks.

[quadancer]

I'm 56 and last test was something like 340ng/dl if I remember right. Not rockbottom, but not energetic either. And I have almost no libido; some of that is probably psychological, but it's not for lack of wanting.

[FatButWeak]

Just a quick note to PMDL and some of the others who questioned whether my hypothesis of barbell activity possibly stimulating T production was sound:

I was re-reading an article from Strong Enough by Rippetoe when I encountered this sentence in a discussion on the male female performance gap which is attributable to men having more T and unusually high performing women; "Or it may be due to an adaptation to continued high levels of workload through an increase in endogenous production of either testosterone od dihydroepiandrosterone sulfate, a slight increase that beneficially affects recovery and performance..." p. 123 Strong Enough.

Evidently, Rippetoe and his esteemed editors believe this hypothesis is sound enought to include it in Rip's book. I do not know whether this phenomenon (higher T production as a response to barbelling) is likely, but it is clearly possible. I feel vindicated

Now if your testes cannot properly function to produce T, that's a different story.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Use it or lose it fellas! :D