When to start programming haltings/rack pulls/deficit pulls?

[stronger]

Pulled 365x4 on a 5rm attempt tuesday. I've been staying up till 4am every night for the past month, so that probably hasn't helped me one bit. I know, I know. Dumb.

When would it be a good idea to start including various deadlift assistance exercises? Am I correct in thinking I would program them in some alternating fashion, i.e. week A - rack pulls week B - halting deadlifts?

Apologies if this has been covered in SS:BBT, my copy is currently on loan.

[Bloodninja666]

What was your sticking point in the missed rep?

[stronger]

What was your sticking point in the missed rep?

the whole thing. :)

It was one of those deadlifts where your grip wont even wrap around the bar because your body says you are utterly spent. Rep 5 wasn't even attempted (grip strength is fine though, never an issue)

My weak point is off the floor, so I should probably start working on haltings anyway. Trying to make a push for 500 in 2010

[Mr.City]

It could be an issue of overtraining. How often are you deadling and how big are your jumps?

[zepled37]

Sounds like a recovery issue for this specific case, but I'm interested in opinions on this in general.



My deadlift was progressing nicely and feeling very strong, but feeling heavy again now. Not sure if it is a recovery issue or just temporary.

If you alternate rack pulls and haltings, when do you work in regular deadlifts?

[stronger]

It could be an issue of overtraining. How often are you deadling and how big are your jumps?

I'm deadlifting once weekly, on my volume day for Texas Method. My jumps are 5lbs/week

so for example, last workout was:

squat- 320x5x5
press- 123x5x5
deadlift- 365x5

I'm sure my deadlift numbers are somewhat dampened by the two preceding exercises (especially the squats), but that's just the way it is. Recovery is definitely an issue, and I have no one to blame but myself. Caloric intake also needs to be more consistent.

[stronger]

If you alternate rack pulls and haltings, when do you work in regular deadlifts?

Under this program, from what I gather reading Rip's posts, you don't deadlift except when you are warming up for the competition and then making your official lifts.

This is what he followed when he was competing, but I'm sure you could test every 2 months for fun, for instance.

[zepled37]

FYI:

I decided to not be so lazy and looked up haltings in SS:BBT and found some descriptions of when to switch on page 209. Basically no surprises...when you can't recovery from the deadlift within in the time frame needed for your workout routine, switch to haltings and rack pulls.

Rip gives the example of someone pulling 500+ for 5 reps which is pretty damn strong, but obviously there is not specific number for this. Same as many answers I believe. If there are no recovery issues from sleep, food, stress, etc., then you might need to change your program.

[PMDL]

I'm deadlifting once weekly, on my volume day for Texas Method. My jumps are 5lbs/week

so for example, last workout was:

squat- 320x5x5
press- 123x5x5
deadlift- 365x5

I'm sure my deadlift numbers are somewhat dampened by the two preceding exercises (especially the squats), but that's just the way it is. Recovery is definitely an issue, and I have no one to blame but myself. Caloric intake also needs to be more consistent.

Two things:

1) Sometimes deadlifting once a week gets to be too much to keep the week-to-week linear gains going; however,

2) That's also a helacious squat workout you just did before hand, and I'd almost guarantee that the fatigue is limiting your pull.

I don't think people need to think about completely dropping the pull from training in favor of special exercises until they're very, very strong. I'm talking well over 500 and probably over 600 before you'd even need to consider it.

I'd look more at fiddling with the loading parameters, specifically not kicking your ass with a squat workout before you try a deadlift PR. If you're set on doing squats, either do them light or do easier front squats. If it were me, I wouldn't squat at all beforehand.

If that doesn't work, then go through the rest of your troubleshooting process.

[bugbomb]

Another idea is just to deadlift in a separate session. I typically do my squats and presses in the gym, and then do my pulling exercises in my garage later. I've found that the few hours often lets me recover enough to pull strong, and I have the added benefit of receiving precisely ZERO dirty looks when I set the bar down noisily.

How much do you weigh? 365x5 is a solid pull, but I wouldn't think you'd need anything fancy yet. Also, it doesn't seem wise to make programming decisions when you are aware that there are easily controllable recovery issues.

[stronger]

Another idea is just to deadlift in a separate session. I typically do my squats and presses in the gym, and then do my pulling exercises in my garage later. I've found that the few hours often lets me recover enough to pull strong, and I have the added benefit of receiving precisely ZERO dirty looks when I set the bar down noisily.

How much do you weigh? 365x5 is a solid pull, but I wouldn't think you'd need anything fancy yet. Also, it doesn't seem wise to make programming decisions when you are aware that there are easily controllable recovery issues.

Unfortunately the garage gym is not an option for splitting up my workout. I would love to do that though.

I'm 20, 5'9 189-192lbs, 18% bodyfat. I'd like to push it to 215lbs @ 12% bf

[Platus]

For what it is worth, here's Rip's answer to a similar question last year:


Assuming your form is correct, your deadlift numbers should be up around 2x bodyweight before weirdness is necessary. Original post: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=11899 (http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=11899&highlight=deadlift+weirdness)

[stronger]

Two things:

1) Sometimes deadlifting once a week gets to be too much to keep the week-to-week linear gains going; however,

2) That's also a helacious squat workout you just did before hand, and I'd almost guarantee that the fatigue is limiting your pull.

I don't think people need to think about completely dropping the pull from training in favor of special exercises until they're very, very strong. I'm talking well over 500 and probably over 600 before you'd even need to consider it.

I'd look more at fiddling with the loading parameters, specifically not kicking your ass with a squat workout before you try a deadlift PR. If you're set on doing squats, either do them light or do easier front squats. If it were me, I wouldn't squat at all beforehand.

If that doesn't work, then go through the rest of your troubleshooting process.

I might switch it around so that I deadlift before I squat on volume day. My reasoning is that the one set of heavy deadlifts will fatigue me less for a volume squat workout (which is 30lbs less than my 5RM) than volume squats will fatigue me for a 5RM deadlift attempt.

I would switch it to wednesday, where I squat 2 light sets and bench or press along with other assistance exercises, but I'm wondering if 370x5 deadlift would affect a 5RM squat attempt on friday. Creeping fatigue begins to play a factor and the length of time between a monday deadlift 5RM PR and a friday 5RM PR seems sufficiently long.

Deadlifting friday and powercleaning monday is unfortunately not an option, time wise. My monday workout is already 2.5 hours, and powercleans would lengthen that.

So, it remains to be seen if I can heavy deadlift before volume squatting and accumulate less fatigue than the other way around, thus enabling me to up my numbers.

I'm planning on deadlifting first tomorrow, I want to try for 405x1

[cjangelo]

I am interested in hearing how you attack this problem.

Me, I'd just deload. I followed a westside template for a long time, and then 5/3/1 for a long time as well, and every 3-4 weeks I'd just take 5 days off from the gym. Get my mind off it. Play a basketball game, stretch, take a nap, read a book, download porn--anything other than think about lifting weights. Then I'd feel good going back in and busting my ass for another period of time.

I'm not saying this is the correct answer. I'm saying this is generally MY answer.

[PMDL]

I might switch it around so that I deadlift before I squat on volume day. My reasoning is that the one set of heavy deadlifts will fatigue me less for a volume squat workout (which is 30lbs less than my 5RM) than volume squats will fatigue me for a 5RM deadlift attempt.

I would switch it to wednesday, where I squat 2 light sets and bench or press along with other assistance exercises, but I'm wondering if 370x5 deadlift would affect a 5RM squat attempt on friday. Creeping fatigue begins to play a factor and the length of time between a monday deadlift 5RM PR and a friday 5RM PR seems sufficiently long.

Deadlifting friday and powercleaning monday is unfortunately not an option, time wise. My monday workout is already 2.5 hours, and powercleans would lengthen that.

So, it remains to be seen if I can heavy deadlift before volume squatting and accumulate less fatigue than the other way around, thus enabling me to up my numbers.

I'm planning on deadlifting first tomorrow, I want to try for 405x1

Welcome to the world of priorities.

Sometimes you can't drive everything up at once.

[stronger]

life is so unfair

[zepled37]

I might switch it around so that I deadlift before I squat on volume day. My reasoning is that the one set of heavy deadlifts will fatigue me less for a volume squat workout (which is 30lbs less than my 5RM) than volume squats will fatigue me for a 5RM deadlift attempt.




I'm pretty sure I've read either in the books or on this forum that Rip would advise against this. Something along the lines of more concern about fatigue on the lower back prior to squats versus fatigue on lower back prior to deadlifts.

Not saying Rip's word is gospel like some do, but on this I would agree. I would only deadlift heavy first if I was going to do some light squats and I wouldn't count volume day as light. Still, there is an issue with fitting in the deadlifts. Somewhere you must compromise and make the most of it. Still, getting your recovery in order first is best.

[Mr.City]

Why not deadlift every other week?

[stronger]

Why not deadlift every other week?

also an option. I'd obviously like to make weekly progress as long as possible, but I may have to switch to that.

[Mr.City]

Well, you're deadlifting more than me, and I'm still a novice. I think you've hit the point of no longer being able to deadlift weekly anymore. In PP, the advanced novice routine calls for deadlifting 2-3 times a month, max.

I actually fucked up SS real bad by not knowing when to cut the deadlifts. I couldn't progress past 290 when I was deadlifting 1-2 times a week and overtrained myself really bad.

[LudwigVan]

For what it's worth, I'm in the same boat. Bodyweight is 189, deadlift 1RM is 405 and squat 1RM is 350, and my deadlift has been stuck around 350x5 for a few weeks on the Texas Method. For me grip is definitely the weak link, so I think I'm going to try doing some slightly lighter DLs followed by farmer's walks or static bar holds on Mondays for a few weeks and see if that makes a difference.

[stronger]

Tried to pick up 405 today, didn't happen. Then I squatted 325 for an easy rep out of a set of 5 and decided I would probably serve myself better by taking the week off and eating a TON, so I reracked the weight and went home. I pulled a lat and need to ice it anyway.

[franklie]

Another idea is just to deadlift in a separate session. I typically do my squats and presses in the gym, and then do my pulling exercises in my garage later. I've found that the few hours often lets me recover enough to pull strong, and I have the added benefit of receiving precisely ZERO dirty looks when I set the bar down noisily.

How much do you weigh? 365x5 is a solid pull, but I wouldn't think you'd need anything fancy yet. Also, it doesn't seem wise to make programming decisions when you are aware that there are easily controllable recovery issues.

If you don't mind, what is your weekly routine? your response to the thread intrigued me.

[bugbomb]

I'm doing a mildly modified version (because I don't do back extensions) of the more advanced novice program outlined on pages 110-111 in Practical Programming. So (example) Monday was heavy squats, bench and pull ups; Wednesday was light squats (80%), press and deadlifts; Friday will be heavy squats, bench and pull ups. Next week keeps switching, except Monday's pull will be power cleans instead of deadlifts.

I always pull at home because my gym is a weenie factory and I don't want to interact with the staff at all. I sometimes do my light squats at home because I don't have to worry about inconsistent weights throwing my progression off.

Just for perspective, I pulled 390 for 5 today, and plan to add at least 10 pounds again next time. Based on what things feel like, I think I'll get to 410 in 10 lbs jumps, and probably around 450 with 5s before the linear progression slows. Squats will be intermediate by that point, I think. Bodyweight 196 @ 5'11". Weight gain had stalled since the end of December due to laziness while I was traveling a bunch for work, but I'm up about 6 lbs in the last week.

[JLascek]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

[stronger]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5. He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression).

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

Yep, I completely agree on the weight issue Justin. It's my fault and I'm working on fixing it (believe me).

the less than ideal monday situation is workable I think (it's going to have to be for now, given my school and work schedule), and I could play around with the 10 days scenario pretty soon (where some days I'd pull on a wednesday or friday, anything longer than a week's recovery).

But, you're completely correct in the most important, overlying issue: low bodyweight.

Just curious, what were the jumps on deadlift for chris with weekly, 10 day and biweekly, respectively?

[Alex Bond]

Stronger, if I was coaching you, you would not have left novice programming until you were 210 or 215. This is your problem.

It's preferable to deadlift on Friday of the Texas Method for the reasons your comrades pointed out to you -- you squatted volume prior deadlifting on Monday.

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

Justin, when someone gets to a weight and can't get it two weeks in a row (deadlifting once a week), would you recommend reseting down the weight or switching to lower frequency of deadlifting? I only got 3 reps at 385# (BW ~235#) this week and obviously I'll be attempting it again next week, but if I don't make it then, what would you suggest?

[kidcolin]

Two things:

1) Sometimes deadlifting once a week gets to be too much to keep the week-to-week linear gains going; however,

2) That's also a helacious squat workout you just did before hand, and I'd almost guarantee that the fatigue is limiting your pull.

I don't think people need to think about completely dropping the pull from training in favor of special exercises until they're very, very strong. I'm talking well over 500 and probably over 600 before you'd even need to consider it.

I'd look more at fiddling with the loading parameters, specifically not kicking your ass with a squat workout before you try a deadlift PR. If you're set on doing squats, either do them light or do easier front squats. If it were me, I wouldn't squat at all beforehand.

If that doesn't work, then go through the rest of your troubleshooting process.

I agree with this. My training has gone through 3 phases, more or less:

phase 1 (4-5 months starting as a complete newb) - SS to the T
phase 2 (2-3 months) - SS but DL'ing just once a week (friday for me). Heavy PCs on Monday, lower volume PCs on Weds
phase 3 (past month)- started doing a modified advanced novice program out of PP, using front squats on Weds but still DL'ing once a week. I did this for two reasons: my squat work sets are getting brutal for me (325x5x3), and adding weight 3x a week just got to be too much in addition to everything else. And two, I had neglected vertical pulling movements for too long. I know Rip advises just lighter LBBSs on Weds nowadays, but 1. learning something new is fun, and 2. FS'ing gives my shoulders a break.

Pretty soon I'll probably start DL'ing every 4th WO or every 2 weeks. Due to some scheduling issues, I had to shift a workout last week so I went 9 days between DL'ing instead of 7, and it felt eassyy, despite really struggling the week before.

Ultimately, don't be afraid to experiment a little bit to find something that works. You risk losing some gains with sub-optimal programming, but you make up for it in experience and learning.

[PMDL]

I'm big on front squatting to help the deadlift, for whatever that's worth. I think most folks would benefit from learning them as soon as possible and doing them on the light squat workouts. Something about having to keep the torso upright and the amount of quad-training just does magic for the deadlift.

That has the double advantage of not kicking your ass as extremely before you pull.

[kidcolin]

yeah, that's what I'm experiencing. I'm feeling pretty fresh going into the DL portion of the workout, whereas on M/F I'm dreading everything post-squat.

[Milk]

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

Im curious Justin.....some quick background. Im 5'10"ish 230 and was making good progress on deads weekly. Then one week I was stuck at 405 and missing my complete 1x5 sets by 1-2 reps consistently for about 3 weeks.

I reset and and currently up to 395 again but am now missing reps at this weight. All the while I increase my calorie intake and milk intake. Im assuming I need to increase recovery time now to 10 days like you stated.

My question is this. 10 days rest would put my next deadlift session on volume days (im doing TX method now). Is that going to work? Last mondays routine was 375 4x5 squats which fatigue me a decent amount. And yes 4x5 as Rips suggests once the 5x5 becomes too much volume to recover from by friday. Or should I just go right to deads every two weeks?

[cjangelo]

I got my friend and training partner Chris to go from low 400s for sets of five to pulling 545x5 last year (singled at 625). He deadlifted weekly, then every ten days, then every two weeks (this was a slow progression). He has since gone to haltings and rack pulls, and will probably pull 700 very soon.

This is irrelevant for your purposes, because your limiting factor is your body weight.

How did his bodyweight change over the same course of time?