WHEN to Consume Vast Quantities

[Gary Gibson]

I suspect that drinking milk a little before, during and immediately after the session is most beneficial. This runs counter to the old adage: "you don't grow IN the weight room; you grow while you sleep after a productive session."

I dunno. Whole milk is proving itself to be the best energy drink I've ever tried. And I wonder about the timing of stimulus-response vis-a-vis growth from resistance training. I'm causing the stimulus right then. Does the body wait till I'm asleep to respond to this particular stimulus?? Is my system not flooded with testosterone and growth hormone and such immediately after I start squatting? Wouldn't that be an excellent time to have tons of protein available?

I further suspect that the potential for growth diminishes the further out in time I get from the initial stimulus.

What does all this mean? Essentially I drink most of my gallon DURING my session between sets (especially squats) and then the rest of the gallon in the hours leading up to bedtime. I actually curb caloric intake the next day because I really don't think I need the gallon of milk so much by then and any excess is much more likely to be stored as fat. Is my body still responding a bit and trying to grow on the following rest day? Sure, but I really doubt it's still working as hard for muscular growth on the rest day as it was during the session and in the hours immediately afterward. Heresy I know.

Do I have any evidence of this? Only with my sample size of one. All my more permanent weight gains seem to come when I overfeed during and immediately after sessions. I've been following this time-based overfeeding for many weeks now and have added nearly 20 lbs. I was 164 lbs in late December and am 182 as of this morning. No idea how much of this is fat, but my strength gains are really starting to move again (see my log for my celebration of my recent easy deadlift PR).

Anyone know of any studies in support or not? Any personal experiences?

Anecdote: I read that mighty Paul Anderson would sip his milk between squat sets, too.

[nisora33]

And I wonder about the timing of stimulus-response vis-a-vis growth from resistance training. I'm causing the stimulus right then. Does the body wait till I'm asleep to respond to this particular stimulus?? Is my system not flooded with testosterone and growth hormone and such immediately after I start squatting? Wouldn't that be an excellent time to have tons of protein available?

Page 65 of PP2ndEd: "...[T]here is limited experimental evidence that exercise or training of any type elicits increased testosterone production. More often than not, researchers have shown that...weight training effects testosterone levels minimally..." On the page following this, however, Rip and Kilgore actually provide evidence that intense weight training actually causes testosterone to drop and continue to drop for up to 48 hours in certain instances.

On page 68, the authors suggest that growth hormone levels peak slightly during the latter part of a workout but return to normal within an hour and a half following cessation of training.

-Stacey

[Gary Gibson]

Need to get me a copy of that 2nd Edition...

[nisora33]

I further suspect that the potential for growth diminishes the further out in time I get from the initial stimulus...

I'm sure everyone gets sick of my bringing up Lyle McDonald's stuff as evidence, but he does say that, contrary to popular thinking on the matter (which is that 30 minutes is the size of the window during which the body can make optimal use of post-workout nutrients) optimal timing for post-workout nutrition could extend as much as 3 hours after a workout.



I actually curb caloric intake the next day because I really don't think I need the gallon of milk so much by then and any excess is much more likely to be stored as fat. Is my body still responding a bit and trying to grow on the following rest day? Sure, but I really doubt it's still working as hard for muscular growth on the rest day as it was during the session and in the hours immediately afterward. Heresy I know.


If you look at the diagram on page 22 of PP2ndEd, you'll see that both comprehensive recovery processes and metabolic and structural figure are peaking at or around the 24 hr. mark following the training session. This would seem to me to indicate that any nutrients taken in during that time would aid to overcome the metabolic and structural fatigue by way of enhancing the comprehensive recovery processes.

-Stacey

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I tried drinking milk during my workouts, but found my stomach likes to be empty while exercising. I do drink almost a pot of coffee during my morning workout though. I will sometimes also drink a large glass of orange juice prior to workout for a little extra energy.

I have a large protein shake immediately after my workout. I read from a couple of sources that you want to get your calories within 20 minutes of working out. I also just started either doing another shake before bed, or cotttage cheese or yogurt.

[nisora33]

I read from a couple of sources that you want to get your calories within 20 minutes of working out.

Read my post above yours.

[Paul Sousa]

I have a feeling if I drank milk during my workouts I would look like Uta Pippig by the end of the session.

[PMDL]

The hormone response immediately around and right after training doesn't mean anything as far as protein synthesis changes in the muscle. I wrote up a big long tract about this.

Hormone changes correlate with a high stress being imposed on your system. They don't at all correlate with the time-course of increased MPS rates (which peak at 24-48 hours post-workout and stay elevated for upwards of 72 hours) or to the actual remodeling of muscle tissue.

There is a rationale for having a lot of protein before (especially), during, and after a workout, mainly due to the synergistic MPS-stimulating effects of circulating amino acids along with resistance training, but that has nothing to do with hormones. It's almost entirely a local-level muscular response.

[damiona]

What does all this mean? Essentially I drink most of my gallon DURING my session between sets (especially squats) and then the rest of the gallon in the hours leading up to bedtime.

Anecdote: I read that mighty Paul Anderson would sip his milk between squat sets, too.


In some of Doug Hepburn's writings he mentions drinking a lot of milk (and eating bananas, I think) during his workouts.

[nisora33]

Based on what you just wrote, and given that many of us here are doing three and four day routines (we're always about to train or still recovering from a bout of training), wouldn't it then be prudent to maintain a pretty consistent daily calorie goal for the majority of the week, with protein making up a large part of those calories?

-s.

[Gary Gibson]

The hormone response immediately around and right after training doesn't mean anything as far as protein synthesis changes in the muscle. I wrote up a big long tract about this.

Hormone changes correlate with a high stress being imposed on your system. They don't at all correlate with the time-course of increased MPS rates (which peak at 24-48 hours post-workout and stay elevated for upwards of 72 hours) or to the actual remodeling of muscle tissue.

There is a rationale for having a lot of protein before (especially), during, and after a workout, mainly due to the synergistic MPS-stimulating effects of circulating amino acids along with resistance training, but that has nothing to do with hormones. It's almost entirely a local-level muscular response.

Cool. Where can I find your write-up?

And yeah, Stacey, I can see your point about having excess nutrients around the clock. I cover this by doing "blocks", that is two-on/one or two-off. The first day tends to focus on a lot of heavy squat volume. I'm still drinking a lot of milk on the very next day when I do lighter squats for recovery and heavy benches.

[nisora33]

Cool. Where can I find your write-up?

And yeah, Stacey, I can see your point about having excess nutrients around the clock. I cover this by doing "blocks", that is two-on/one or two-off. The first day tends to focus on a lot of heavy squat volume. I'm still drinking a lot of milk on the very next day when I do lighter squats for recovery and heavy benches.

He has a free e-book downloadable from his site, www.ampedtraining.com. I don't know if that's what he was talking about. At any rate, you can find lots of other articles from him there too.

-s.

[Gary Gibson]

Thanks. Heard of amped, but didn't realize it was PMDL's.

[PMDL]

Based on what you just wrote, and given that many of us here are doing three and four day routines (we're always about to train or still recovering from a bout of training), wouldn't it then be prudent to maintain a pretty consistent daily calorie goal for the majority of the week, with protein making up a large part of those calories?

-s.

If you're lifting say more than twice a week, then yeah you're always recovering from it. And yeah, getting a good bit of protein in as your dietary foundation is always a good move.

I'm a more conservative eater than most of you around here, because I don't have the GFH goals anymore, but I still push a lot of protein even though my daily calories aren't super-high.


Thanks. Heard of amped, but didn't realize it was PMDL's.

I try not to obnoxiously advertise.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Read my post above yours.


I'm sure everyone gets sick of my bringing up Lyle McDonald's stuff as evidence, but he does say that, contrary to popular thinking on the matter (which is that 30 minutes is the size of the window during which the body can make optimal use of post-workout nutrients) optimal timing for post-workout nutrition could extend as much as 3 hours after a workout.

Thanks. I need to read Lyle's articles, and become more informed on the topic.

So is the answer to the topic of WHEN to consume vast quantities, anytime within 3 hours of post-workout?

[Gary Gibson]

I try not to obnoxiously advertise.

Then allow me...

One of the best things I've read on the interwebz: http://www.ampedtraining.com/physique/bodybuilding-lied-fallout/



What is relevant is the relative strength gains over your lifetime. If you’re a small guy that brings his squat from 100 lbs up to a raw or mostly-raw (say belt + light wraps) 550 lbs, you’ve grown. You had to have grown to move that weight. And I’m banning the first one of you that complains about ‘neural efficiency’. I don’t want to hear that shit. If it was about neural efficiency, every one of those 150 lb kids could just hit the gym 4-5 days a week with singles and eventually ramp up to that load. Why doesn’t that happen?

Moving heavy weights around requires muscle mass.

I used to be a 150-lb guy who thought neural efficiency would let him get really strong without having to get up to 200 lbs. And I did start with about a 100-lb squat.

[hbriem]

You might like to look at Dr. Squat's "Zig Zag Diet" on which he has an e-booklet and several online articles. Basically though, it says "eat more on training days, less on rest days in order to gain more muscle and less fat".

[Kate]

He has a free e-book downloadable from his site, www.ampedtraining.com (http://www.ampedtraining.com). I don't know if that's what he was talking about. At any rate, you can find lots of other articles from him there too.
This is off-topic for the thread, but I read a few articles on Matt P's site earlier today, and couldn't stop laughing at this excerpt he quoted from the P90X site:

The secret behind the P90X system is an advanced training technique called “Muscle Confusion,” which accelerates the results process by constantly introducing new moves and routines so your body never plateaus, and you never get bored!Followed by Matt writing, "'Confuse the muscles'. Really? Somebody just said that, in 2009, and expects to be taken seriously?" (The article was from Sept.) That gem was in Right, Wrong, and Meh (http://www.ampedtraining.com/knowledge/wrong-meh/).

And on the P90X Web site, "Muscle Confusion" is actually trademarked. I got 3 or 4 giggle fits out of that. Good god, the last thing my muscles need is "confusion"! Life itself is quite confusing enough, thankyouverymuch. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the off-topic post; couldn't help myself. My muscles must be all confused from my workout....:D

-Kate