Vitamins

[mcsquared]

I've read that Bill Starr recommends for trainees to "shovel" vitamins, and that Rip's position was that one could try it and see if it works for them. I was wondering if anyone on here has experimented with this. What vitamins did you use, how often did you use them, etc?

This question is partially inspiried by that 70sbig post on Ricky Bruch a while back. That guy was a monster. Thanks!

[Brenden]

I've recently begun taking massive amounts of vitamins. Here's what I'm taking right now:

With breakfast:
1-2g powdered C
1 tbsp cod-liver oil
1 tsp creatine
1 tbsp lecithin granules
400mg E
5 wheat germ capsules, I think at roughly 1g oil each
250mcg B12
800? mcg folic acid
1 multivitamin/mineral: http://www.puritan.com/multivitamins-067/multivitamin-minerals-013056?NewPage=1


With dinner:
1-2g powdered C
1 tbsp cod-liver oil
1 tbsp lecithin
400mg E
1 B-complex pill with 100g of each nutrient
800mcg folic acid

I plan to start taking 1gm of C and 400mg of E before workouts, too, and get a separate multimineral as well. I also have some Mag-Cal capsules I taking before bed sometimes. It's hard to say whether taking all those vitamins are effective or not, as I'm still on the novice progression, taking 5lb jumps on everything but the two presses, at 2.5lb jumps. I'm 6', 205lbs, and squatted 3x5x230 last workout.

I have noticed a minor medical condition becoming better. I had a bald patch on my chin, and lately it's begun filling in. I noticed it after adding vitamin C to my supplementation, which makes me think I was indeed deficient in at least one vitamin. I plan to stay on this supplementation schedule indefinitely.

I'd appreciate a link to the 70sbig post you mention. I don't believe I saw it.

[Dastardly]

I have a couple tubs of high quality lechithin capsules. If anyone wants them (in the UK) pay postage and their yours for free.

[Gottatri2lift]

I have been reading Bill Starr's book and except for the B complex vitamins I am at or exceeding Bill Starr's recommendation. I have been doing morning and late afternoon (an hour before I train) vitamin regimen and always with food. I have been on it for three weeks now, and definitely no negative effects. I think recovery time is lessened, and energy is up throughout the day. I think it works and I feel over all better, but this is only anecodotal. Try it out for a month or two like Starr did with the two lifters in his book. :)

[mcsquared]

I've recently begun taking massive amounts of vitamins. Here's what I'm taking right now:

With breakfast:
1-2g powdered C
1 tbsp cod-liver oil
1 tsp creatine
1 tbsp lecithin granules
400mg E
5 wheat germ capsules, I think at roughly 1g oil each
250mcg B12
800? mcg folic acid
1 multivitamin/mineral: http://www.puritan.com/multivitamins-067/multivitamin-minerals-013056?NewPage=1


With dinner:
1-2g powdered C
1 tbsp cod-liver oil
1 tbsp lecithin
400mg E
1 B-complex pill with 100g of each nutrient
800mcg folic acid

I plan to start taking 1gm of C and 400mg of E before workouts, too, and get a separate multimineral as well. I also have some Mag-Cal capsules I taking before bed sometimes. It's hard to say whether taking all those vitamins are effective or not, as I'm still on the novice progression, taking 5lb jumps on everything but the two presses, at 2.5lb jumps. I'm 6', 205lbs, and squatted 3x5x230 last workout.

I have noticed a minor medical condition becoming better. I had a bald patch on my chin, and lately it's begun filling in. I noticed it after adding vitamin C to my supplementation, which makes me think I was indeed deficient in at least one vitamin. I plan to stay on this supplementation schedule indefinitely.

I'd appreciate a link to the 70sbig post you mention. I don't believe I saw it.

It was this one: http://70sbig.com/?p=431. It was the story of Ricky Bruch, who, according to youtube, took 135000 vitamin pills in a 16 month period. He also lifted 30,000 tons (according to a description of his workout on youtube.) Maybe not specific information like I feel what you were looking for, but still, the guy was a badass. But hey, man, you and I are about the same spot. I'm 208, 6'1"ish, my squat is gonna hit 235 tomorrow. I'll definitely take a look at your vitamin regimen and see what works for me.

What is the name of Bill Starr's book that mentions vitamin regimens? Thanks!

[Mr.City]

Defying Gravity: How to Win at Weightlifting

[Bloodninja666]

Where is the proof that vitamins aid in performance?

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I don't know if there is any proof that vitamins will improve performance, but I don't think they can hurt it.

I'm taking several of the Animal products. It might be a waste of money, and there might be cheaper/better alternatives out there. But for me, I like the convenience of having everything covered in a "pack". I started taking them just over a month ago, and have to say my energy levels are higher, and my recovery is quicker.

I'm taking Animal PAK, Animal Omega, and Animal Flex. The Flex product is for joint care, and I notice a lot less snap, crackle, and pop in my joints in the morning.

It is a lot of pills to swallow, a total of 27, but they go down easy with my protein shake in the morning. I also use Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Whey, and ON's Creatine powder as well. The creatine disolves really well, and has no taste at all. I take a spoonful in my mouth, and then wash it down with the shake. It disolves instantly with no flavor.

[PVC]

Where is the proof that vitamins aid in performance?

I don't know of any, and I seriously doubt that the intake of excess vitamins aids performance in any way. BUT there is more than sufficient proof that vitamin deficiency hinders performance, and supplementing vitamins helps ensure that the body is functioning optimally. Like Rip said, it can't hurt to try it.

[Paul Sousa]

I've been eating Flinstone vitamins for about a month now. The red Great Gazoo is my favorite.

[TChase76]

I take 3 multi-vitamins a day. One with breakfast, one after training with my milk/protein shake, and one with my last meal of the night. I don't know if it's doing much good but it's cheap insurance if you ask me.

[Brenden]

What is the name of Bill Starr's book that mentions vitamin regimens? Thanks!

He discusses vitamins in both Defying Gravity and The Strongest Shall Survive. I've found both helpful.

[Scrofula]

Vitamins definitely can harm you, in large doses. Particularly the fat-soluble ones (A, D, E; not so much K). It's called vitamin poisoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis). Definitely not one of those 'more is better' deals.

[Platus]

I have also heard that too much iron may not be great for you in the long run, as it may increase oxidative stress. This seems to be more of a problem as people age. I have actually been talking 'centrum silver' as this has less iron, and I think that I already get plenty from my diet.

[mcsquared]

Vitamins definitely can harm you, in large doses. Particularly the fat-soluble ones (A, D, E; not so much K). It's called vitamin poisoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis). Definitely not one of those 'more is better' deals.

I think I remember Rip talking about this somewheres...I think the gist of what he was getting at is that the risk of vitamin poisoning in someone whos undergoing the stresses that we're undergoing is low. I can't remember exactly. I'm also have yet to read either of Bill Starr's books (ordered em both on Thursday) so im sure i'll be more educated then.

[Scrofula]

I think I remember Rip talking about this somewheres...I think the gist of what he was getting at is that the risk of vitamin poisoning in someone whos undergoing the stresses that we're undergoing is low. I can't remember exactly. I'm also have yet to read either of Bill Starr's books (ordered em both on Thursday) so im sure i'll be more educated then.
Vitamins are a pretty diverse set of compounds, so we probably shouldn't be talking about vitamin megadosage and vitamin poisoning as if it's one single thing. Some vitamins have no known toxic effects, and others can kill you if taken in sufficiently large quantities. I haven't read Bill Starr's recommendations, but I'm sure they were more specific than, 'take vast amounts of all these unrelated substances that alter your biochemistry in different ways'.

[Gottatri2lift]

Defying Gravity: How to Win at Weightlifting


A more in depth discussion is Bill Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive. He also uses anectodatal (spelling) evidence about the effects of vitamins and weightlifting. The book is available in the store section - get it. He goes in depth regarding nutrition for the strength athlete.

[Brenden]

A quote from page 108 of TSSS: "I have merely hit the high spots, but those hight spots should give you a clear insight on each nutrient. Secondly, my program utilized the Europoean research for my recommended allowances. These are, in almost all cases, much higher than any recommeded dosages in this country. I never, however, recommend a toxic dosage. I can validate all my recommendations through actual research out of Europe and also from findings conducted in our own country, so the reader need not be alarmed that I am risking his health with my megadoses. My recommendations are considered megadoses, but it needs to be reiterated that athletes are megahumans. To suppose that a football player who spends six to ten hours per week in strenuous physical activity requires the same amount of any nutrient as the sedentary secretary or insurance salesman is pure foolishness, but that is often what we are aksed to believe by those who set the daily amounts for the various nutrients."

He also discusses the toxicity threshholds of the fat-soluble vitamins, what other vitamins mitigate toxicity, etc. Don't take mega doses without at least reading Starr's books or another equally trustworthy source. Don't just do what someone else from the internet does, including me.

[Milk]

I don't know if there is any proof that vitamins will improve performance, but I don't think they can hurt it.

I'm taking several of the Animal products. It might be a waste of money, and there might be cheaper/better alternatives out there. But for me, I like the convenience of having everything covered in a "pack". I started taking them just over a month ago, and have to say my energy levels are higher, and my recovery is quicker.

I'm taking Animal PAK, Animal Omega, and Animal Flex. The Flex product is for joint care, and I notice a lot less snap, crackle, and pop in my joints in the morning.

It is a lot of pills to swallow, a total of 27, but they go down easy with my protein shake in the morning. I also use Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Whey, and ON's Creatine powder as well. The creatine disolves really well, and has no taste at all. I take a spoonful in my mouth, and then wash it down with the shake. It disolves instantly with no flavor.

I was taking the Animal Products for a good while. I switched from Animal Pak and Flex to different things. I am currently quadruple dosing Centrum Performance which is about as much vitamins as in "Pak" but without the other crazy minerals and about $20 a month instead of $50 or whatever the pak was costing. I also get big bottles of flax and fish oil and glucosamine/chrono and make my own "flex" It cost about half as much as well.

Since I switched I havent noticed a big difference in performance.

[Milk]

Vitamins definitely can harm you, in large doses. Particularly the fat-soluble ones (A, D, E; not so much K). It's called vitamin poisoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis). Definitely not one of those 'more is better' deals.

Thats also related to the "average" person. Who is very inactive. Most of us on this forum cant survive training by sticking to the recommended 2000 calorie diet, we simply need more food. This translates into needing more vitamins and minerals as well. Quit trying to scare people with some BS wiki write up that pertains to hardly any "average" people let alone weightlifters needing more of everything.

If you're scared to load up on vitamins than so be it but you cant just show one point of view and tell everyone they are going to die from it.

[Scrofula]

Thats also related to the "average" person. Who is very inactive. Most of us on this forum cant survive training by sticking to the recommended 2000 calorie diet, we simply need more food. This translates into needing more vitamins and minerals as well. Quit trying to scare people with some BS wiki write up that pertains to hardly any "average" people let alone weightlifters needing more of everything.

If you're scared to load up on vitamins than so be it but you cant just show one point of view and tell everyone they are going to die from it.
I'm not suggesting sticking to the standard RDAs. Athletes may need more of these substances than sedentary people, but there's still a point where they do more harm than good. I think people should do their homework, find out how much of each nutrient they should be consuming (probably more than Joe Officeworker), and go for it. It's just not wise to blindly load up on substances that change your body chemistry without putting some thought into it.

[Guido]

If you're going to supplement with any vitamin it should be Vitamin D3. The RDA is way low for what is thought to be the actual required amount for optimal functioning (they recommend 600 IU when many competent sources say 2,000-6,000 IU is optimal). Vitamin D also has anabolic effects and improves mood. Most people are woefully deficient due to lack of sun exposure, diet, etc. Just make sure to get D3 and not D2 if you are going to buy as a supplement, and get the little gels if you can as opposed to hard pills as they absorb easier.

If you eat ample food including meat and fruits/vegetables you should be more than fine for getting vitamins other than D (you can check this by keeping an accurate Fitday log and checking out your typical daily nutrient intake), but if not then taking one or two good quality multi's should get you there.

I personally take 1 multi and 5-6 1,000 IU caps of Vitamin D3 each day in addition to my fish oil and have never felt better or been stronger.

[Guido]

A couple links as references:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminD/ (ignore the IU recommendations)

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/d_is_for_doping

Studies (not linked):

Autier P, Gandini S. Vitamin D supplementation and total mortality: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med. 2007;167(16):1730—7.

Athletic Performance and Vitamin D , JOHN J. CANNELL, BRUCE W. HOLLIS, MARC B. SORENSON, TIMOTHY N. TAFT, and JOHN J. B. ANDERSON

[Locutus]

If you're going to supplement with any vitamin it should be Vitamin D3.

For serious. I also have been doing 5000-6000 IU D3 for a long time now. and ditto on your advice on fish oil and multi. The only other "general health" supplement that I'd recommend is some kind of chelated magnesium (could be ZMA, butI prefer just plain old magnesium citrate).

Good to see you over here, BTW.

[Guido]

For serious. I also have been doing 5000-6000 IU D3 for a long time now. and ditto on your advice on fish oil and multi. The only other "general health" supplement that I'd recommend is some kind of chelated magnesium (could be ZMA, butI prefer just plain old magnesium citrate).

Good to see you over here, BTW.What up, Tim?

Yes, Magnesium is good, too, and has some positive effects on recovery and sleep. It gives some people very vivid dreams!

[PVC]

I just want to point out that some milk brands add Vitamins A and D to their milk, so if you're drinking GOMAD with one of these brands it might not be the best idea to supplement either of these two vitamins.

[Locutus]

Each cup of milk around here has

10% of the DV for vitamin A and
25% of the DV for vitamin D

so, that's

500 IU vitamin A and 100IU vitamin D per cup
*16 = 8000IU vitamin A and 1600IU vitamin D.

Vitamin D3 is pretty safe up to 10000IU daily, so I'd still supplement with it, personally. The vitamin A is nothing to scoff at, so I guess that's something to watch out for, especially if you're taking one of those "high quality" multis, or are pregnant.

[Guido]

^ What he said. Most people are going to get plenty adequate amounts of Vitamin A through diet alone but not Vitamin D, even on the GOMAD.

[mcsquared]

Unless I read wrong, in The Strongest Shall Survive, Bill Starr recommends 25,000 units per day of Vitamin A. Regardless, my question now is, where do you guys buy your vitamins? A couple of ya mentioned Animal Paks or whatever, any cheap but effective alternatives?

[Sami]

Vit A inhibits Vit D3 though, doesn't it? I think I heard that either on Wolf's blog or Super Human Radio.

[Tiburon]

Speaking of Vitamin A megadosing, has anyone studied this eccentric / excentric cleavage of beta carotene and possible roles in carcinogenesis?

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/1/262S

[mcsquared]

Vit A inhibits Vit D3 though, doesn't it? I think I heard that either on Wolf's blog or Super Human Radio.

I actually hadn't read that anywhere in Starr's book and thats what I'm going off of. I'm gonna be starting on "defying gravity" here shortly so maybe that'll have more information.

[Brenden]

Defying Gravity doesn't talk about A inhibiting D. He does write this: "Theoretically, an athlete could take too much of either, or both, and run into toxicity problems, but I have never seen it. Personally, I take large amounts of A, 100,000 IU daily, and I have been doing this for over 10 years with only positive effects. Anything less and it has no useful effect for me."

Does anyone know of any good, more recent books on vitamins and nutrition? I'm not interested in reading blogs. I just purchased the following, which should give me plenty of reading material for quite some time:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0969527284
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380702894
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588901246
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591202264
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440236452

[Kincain]

a same question was asked Rip some time ago

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14032

and maybe this is of some interest, about how vitamin C and E affect muscle growth in elderly and younger people, aparently high doses have better effects on elderly people than for younger people.

http://www.ergo-log.com/vitamincmoremuscle.html

the same site has more info about vitamins and studies that accompany it

[Michael Liao]

Gotta use CAL-MAG or the proportions are all messed up...

[Michael Liao]

Great book but not exactly new. Starr refers to it often.


Defying Gravity doesn't talk about A inhibiting D. He does write this: "Theoretically, an athlete could take too much of either, or both, and run into toxicity problems, but I have never seen it. Personally, I take large amounts of A, 100,000 IU daily, and I have been doing this for over 10 years with only positive effects. Anything less and it has no useful effect for me."

Does anyone know of any good, more recent books on vitamins and nutrition? I'm not interested in reading blogs. I just purchased the following, which should give me plenty of reading material for quite some time:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0969527284
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380702894
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588901246
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591202264
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440236452

[Michael Liao]

Not everyone is the same but I've found Mr. Starr's advice very useful for overall health and well-being; translated to a quicker recovery, staying power and fortitude (if that means anything).

I just copy the three pages where he lists his daily recommended allowances of vites, minerals and 'busy' B's in "The Strongest Shall Survive' and adhere to it to pretty much a T. Especially with the B's, it's really important they be in proportion or you just create a greater need for one or the others.

I buy a 'B-Complex' as your foundation and add individual B's as it is deficient in certain ones as per Mr. Starr's RDA.

Before, I've always underestimated of the importance of vitamins and minerals UNTIL I moved away from the GNC types such as Animal Packs or the Mega Men variety. They are totally out of whack in terms of proportions. I like the whole foods or 'Organic' food stores vitamin sections much, much better. Cuter girls, too!

:)


Defying Gravity doesn't talk about A inhibiting D. He does write this: "Theoretically, an athlete could take too much of either, or both, and run into toxicity problems, but I have never seen it. Personally, I take large amounts of A, 100,000 IU daily, and I have been doing this for over 10 years with only positive effects. Anything less and it has no useful effect for me."

Does anyone know of any good, more recent books on vitamins and nutrition? I'm not interested in reading blogs. I just purchased the following, which should give me plenty of reading material for quite some time:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0969527284
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380702894
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588901246
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591202264
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440236452


I've read that Bill Starr recommends for trainees to "shovel" vitamins, and that Rip's position was that one could try it and see if it works for them. I was wondering if anyone on here has experimented with this. What vitamins did you use, how often did you use them, etc?

This question is partially inspiried by that 70sbig post on Ricky Bruch a while back. That guy was a monster. Thanks!

[mcsquared]

Alright, so based on Starr's recommendations, who do you guys use? I'm still shopping around and experimenting with different brands.

[Dastardly]

Wheatgerm has been a winner for me. Dirt cheap, its about 30% protein, has an array of useful minerals like zinc & phosphorous, helps oxygenate the blood/heart (dont remember the details) and helps a lot with fatigue in general.


Wheat germ is the embryo of the wheat kernel. It is separated from wheat being milled for flour. Wheat germ is sodium and cholesterol free, and dense in nutrients. It is rich in vitamin E, magnesium, pantothenic acid, phosphorus, thiamine, and zinc. It is also a source of coenzyme Q10 (ubiquinone) and PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid). Two tablespoons of wheat germ contains 65 calories, 6 grams protein, 2 grams of unsaturated fat, and 2 grams of fiber.

[Dastardly]

Each cup of milk around here has

10% of the DV for vitamin A and
25% of the DV for vitamin D

so, that's

500 IU vitamin A and 100IU vitamin D per cup
*16 = 8000IU vitamin A and 1600IU vitamin D.

Vitamin D3 is pretty safe up to 10000IU daily, so I'd still supplement with it, personally. The vitamin A is nothing to scoff at, so I guess that's something to watch out for, especially if you're taking one of those "high quality" multis, or are pregnant.

Remember that all of us do not have access to Vitamin D fortified milk. British milk has none added.

I only supplement D in winter anyhow, I spend a lot of time outdoors.

[mcsquared]

Remember that all of us do not have access to Vitamin D fortified milk. British milk has none added.

I only supplement D in winter anyhow, I spend a lot of time outdoors.

Have you read The Strongest Shall Survive? I only ask cause he makes some interesting arguments about how just because one spends copious amounts of time outdoors doesn't necessarily correlate to a healthy level of Vitamin D. That all these various conditions have to be exactly right for Vitamin D production to ensue because of oils on the skin, time of day, stuff like that.

[Michael Liao]

Beef liver in its non defatted, various forms is great. As long as it's 'clean.' I can now tell why they call it a super food. Just take it religiously and see the results. But don't forget that there's no silver bullet, just ones that come pretty close.

:)


Alright, so based on Starr's recommendations, who do you guys use? I'm still shopping around and experimenting with different brands.

[hamster]

I don't know if there is any proof that vitamins will improve performance, but I don't think they can hurt it.


Yes they can. For someone with adequate nutrition, there is no need to take a multivitamin, and overdose (hypervitaminoses) are possible. Scientists don't even understand how delivery of vitamins and minearals together affects performance of the multivitamin. For example, Vitamin C promotes free iron absoprtion, but it also promotes calcium absorption. However, calcium inhibits iron absorption, so what happens when you take all three together? Now, what happens when you add several dozen other vitmains and minerals. There is no research, and no motivation to do the research that would define these multiple interactions.

Hyperdosing of vitamins is another face of the American overconsumption coin. It's a waste of money and possibly harmful. Save your cash for a steak dinner.

[mcsquared]

Yes they can. For someone with adequate nutrition, there is no need to take a multivitamin, and overdose (hypervitaminoses) are possible. Scientists don't even understand how delivery of vitamins and minearals together affects performance of the multivitamin. For example, Vitamin C promotes free iron absoprtion, but it also promotes calcium absorption. However, calcium inhibits iron absorption, so what happens when you take all three together? Now, what happens when you add several dozen other vitmains and minerals. There is no research, and no motivation to do the research that would define these multiple interactions.

Hyperdosing of vitamins is another face of the American overconsumption coin. It's a waste of money and possibly harmful. Save your cash for a steak dinner.

Starr's arguments concerning the gradual reduction of vitamins in the American diet are very convincing. The fact remains that RDAs are established for a sedentary population of which we are not a part. And with fruit being artificially enhanced and colored, its hard to imagine that the integrity of necessary vitamins wouldn't be affected. Plus, most vitamins which are water soluble and therefore there exists little danger of overdosing.

Your opinion is your own, though your argument seems similar to those who argue against taking protein supplements in favor of just eating more meat. One shouldn't be afraid to experiment. I have seen nothing but positive results from my intake of vitamins thus far. My performance and overall well-being has increased. And my diet does include a large portion of fruits, vegetables, and meats, but my vitamin intake supplements that.

This is not a silver bullet though, and should not be treated as such.

[Michael Liao]

Alright, so based on Starr's recommendations, who do you guys use? I'm still shopping around and experimenting with different brands.

I'm fond of the 'NOW Foods' brand vitamins.

They also make a good whey protein powder which may be a little on the premium side but I use it nonetheless.

I use Beverly International and NOW Foods desiccated liver and powdered liver products.

Barlean's Master Omega Oil Blend and some others...

:)