Dastardly Deadlift..

[Dastardly]

I already put this question to Rip but he didnt have time to assess it fully, and now he is out of town. Id appreciate some input in how I can overcome this same issue which keeps causing my deadlifts to stall at the same point

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Ive been deadlifting for many months now. I was doing the stronglifts programme as I did not know about SS yet.

Deadlifts in that programme are also one set of five, every other training day.

I switched to starting strength this year, and regretted not having found it earlier.

My deadlift had been stuck around the 110-115kg mark during the past 2-3 months. The difficulty in my progress stemmed around the most awkward part of the lift for me.

My starting position involves a very horizontal back position, when I am in this position it is very difficult for me to create a tight back arch, and then additionally maintain this near horizontal back angle till the bar passes the knees.

I did a small reset from 100kg down to 90kg, then when I got stuck at 110kg I made a big reset to 85kg. At the end of last year I was stuck at 115kg struggling to get 5 reps (inevitably doing 3 then 2 reps) Form had as always gotten a little sloppy soon as things got challenging.

I reset to 100kg to begin SS but now realise I shouldve gone lower. It has only been a couple deadlift sessions (am now on 110kg) but my back is not looking tight enough anymore.

Here are examples of most recent deadlifts:

First warm up set 60kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JgBk0sk8RA
warm up set obviously has the best form I can manage, if there is a problem in that I am obviously fucked.

Work Set 110kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxpsNVR0mzM

(apologies, not the best quality or viewing distance)

My queries are the following:

Does my back look tight enough/form decent enough in my work set to continue adding weight to the bar?

Should I reset again, if so by how much?

Should I look directly at the ground during the deadlift?

Are there any methods ( assistance exercises? ) for helping a horizontal trunk deadlifter in getting into and maintaining a better back position.

I already do 30 second+ static hamstring stretches at the end of each workout in addition to squat stretches.

Looking forward to your input.

[nisora33]

I saw the original post, and I think Rip covered it fairly well.

-S.

[Nauticus]

Does my back look tight enough/form decent enough in my work set to continue adding weight to the bar?

You should learn to set your back correctly. Focus on this foremost. Experiment with back angles, stances, until you get something good.

If you're not gaining weight and you're still skinny, you're going to stall at weights like this. Accept this, or accept the stall.

[Dastardly]

I saw the original post, and I think Rip covered it fairly well.

-S.

He more or less said there was so much wrong with it that he didnt have time to explain properly.

What he did mention was that the left side of the barbell seemed to drift away from the body and to pull more with that arm so the bar stays against legs.

I cannot remember it coming away, and think it may be an illusion in the video.

But the point is, I do not really know where to take it from here. I have rest many times. Should I really do it AGAIN?

How harsh should I be in re-adding weight? For example should I stick to lifting 80kg for 3 weeks straight even though I know I can lift 115kg with NEARLY good form? If I do make a massive deload to focus purely on precision form, should I change to higher reps or halting deads working the more difficult bottom end?

Rip did not really give much suggestions on what to do next.

[Mr.City]

Wait til SS arrives and the path will soon be clear.

[Kate]

You should learn to set your back correctly.

^^^ This. Even in your warmup set, your back looks rounded to me.

I'm still a novice, so I don't generally post in the form-check threads (so caveat lector), but the rounded back looks like a pretty clear problem.* When I pause the video of your warmup set, I can see spots where you almost straighten your back, but I'm not seeing your back actually arch.

Maybe it's time to find a local coach? Someone who can help you find the best stance for setting your back, and who can (if need be) physically put your back into the right position so you can get a better sense of what that feels like?

-K.

* Edited to add: If I'm off-base on that, then someone (Stacey?) please tell me, and explain why, so I can learn.

[Dastardly]

Kate,

The form I used in the warm up set is my absolute best focused precision form.

I took great effort to get in correct position and lift slowly to maintain the right position.

My back does not get any more arched than that really. If I am standing up and try to hyperestend my back, maybe my spine becomes a tiny bit more arched.

But what you see there is as tight as my back will get in deadlift position. The fact that my starting position relies on my having a nearly horrizontal back makes it extremely tough to get into and maintain this position.

In terms of coaching it is a no-goer. I am by far the most knowledgeable person on weightlifting I have come across. this includes people who have claimed to be qualified olympic lifting coaches or people who are brutally strong lifters themselves.

No one has a clue on critiquing someone else. Everyone I have met tells me I am deadlifting wrong because my thighs should be parallel to the floor and my back should be near vertical. Also that I should use mixed grip on every set, even better with straps, be sure to bounce, and just as good on a smith machine.

[nisora33]

There are a few reasons that I know of that might lead to your having difficulty setting your back correctly.

Your hamstrings could be too inflexible, in which case they're pulling so hard on the ischial tuberosity of the pelvis (the hamstring origin) that your poor spinal erectors can't stay short enough to keep the back in extension.

It could be kinesethic--i.e., you don't know what a properly extended low back feels like down there in that bent-over position.

Or you might just need to angle your toes out more. Keep your stance narrow (just a pinch narrower than your vertical jump stance would be) but angle your toes out about 20 or so degrees, so that you can get a little knee flare out as you get into your set position. It should be easier to maintain an extended spine with this set up.

Last thing I might try (building on the last suggestion) if nothing else should work is a frog stance: heels are together, toes turned out as much as thirty degrees either direction. Works for some guys. I've got at least one guy who pulls best this way.

-S.

[Dastardly]

thanks Stacey.

I have tried all of those things except for frog legs, I didnt know that it was a legitimate way of deadlifting.

Rip thought is was kinaesthetic too, but honestly my back does not get any more arch in it than what you see in the warm up.

I have also been doing a lot of thorough stretching for a whole year now. I am more felxible than I used to be, but I do not think there will be any more improvents in flexibility.

I will try pulling frog legged though, it will be nuts if it works.

[Force Production]

But what you see there is as tight as my back will get in deadlift position. The fact that my starting position relies on my having a nearly horrizontal back makes it extremely tough to get into and maintain this position.

You keep mentioning that you have to have a horizontal back...why?

You say that you can't set your back any better... What if you first assume a position where the back is set, then push the bar back into your shins, then pull? Just to see how it looks and how it feels.

It also looks like you're not really taking a BIG breath.

[Dastardly]

You keep mentioning that you have to have a horizontal back...why?

.

Rips Deadlift Setup method. The whole dealie abdout limb lengths and angles. If I made my back steeper then the scapulae would no longer be above the bar.

[Kate]

I took great effort to get in correct position and lift slowly to maintain the right position.

I understand that you are trying hard, but you are still not in the correct position. There's no back arch at all.

I'll be curious to see if Stacey's frog-stance suggestion helps you -- and if you can take people's advice to heart, instead of saying "yes but" (or just "no") to almost everything, the way you did in your squat-form thread a while back.

Not trying to rag on you, and I have no interest in arguing with you; just pointing stuff out, 'cause you asked for feedback.

[Mr.City]

I believe Rip has a video or two about setting up the deadlift position. Have you watched those? Also, I've noticed that you don't keep your legs stiff when you bend down to grip the bar. That was a mistake I've been making for a while, and upon correcting it, noticed that my deadlifts kept much lighter.

[Dastardly]

Sorry if it sounded like i am unwilling to accept advice, I do appreciate your input.

Its just that Ive been through a whole year of trying to increase flexibility and improve my 'back arch' it simply does not arch anymore than it is right there. I know many lifters, especially those with a more upright torso or women generally have a much superior arch. I would love to achieve that, I think it would add 30% to all my lifts instantly.

If you look back in the squat thread youll see that I did accept peoples advice, actually a bit too literally. Making my squat a bit weird. But with everyones help I have finally fixed my squat. I havent put the videos up yet though.

[Force Production]

What you're doing right now isn't working though. I still think you should forget about trying to think that you need to be horinzontal. In what position CAN you have an arched back?

[blowdpanis]

I already put this question to Rip but he didnt have time to assess it fully, and now he is out of town. Id appreciate some input in how I can overcome this same issue which keeps causing my deadlifts to stall at the same point

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ive been deadlifting for many months now. I was doing the stronglifts programme as I did not know about SS yet.

Deadlifts in that programme are also one set of five, every other training day.

I switched to starting strength this year, and regretted not having found it earlier.

My deadlift had been stuck around the 110-115kg mark during the past 2-3 months. The difficulty in my progress stemmed around the most awkward part of the lift for me.

My starting position involves a very horizontal back position, when I am in this position it is very difficult for me to create a tight back arch, and then additionally maintain this near horizontal back angle till the bar passes the knees.

I did a small reset from 100kg down to 90kg, then when I got stuck at 110kg I made a big reset to 85kg. At the end of last year I was stuck at 115kg struggling to get 5 reps (inevitably doing 3 then 2 reps) Form had as always gotten a little sloppy soon as things got challenging.

I reset to 100kg to begin SS but now realise I shouldve gone lower. It has only been a couple deadlift sessions (am now on 110kg) but my back is not looking tight enough anymore.

Here are examples of most recent deadlifts:

First warm up set 60kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JgBk0sk8RA
warm up set obviously has the best form I can manage, if there is a problem in that I am obviously fucked.

Work Set 110kg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxpsNVR0mzM

(apologies, not the best quality or viewing distance)

My queries are the following:

Does my back look tight enough/form decent enough in my work set to continue adding weight to the bar?

Should I reset again, if so by how much?

Should I look directly at the ground during the deadlift?

Are there any methods ( assistance exercises? ) for helping a horizontal trunk deadlifter in getting into and maintaining a better back position.

I already do 30 second+ static hamstring stretches at the end of each workout in addition to squat stretches.

Looking forward to your input.

Your back is too rounded to be acceptable, imho, and I think nisora covered the reasons why pretty well.

You might be a good candidate for a semi-sumo start position. Arms perpendicular to the floor (which might be a grip slightly inside of what you're used to), feet RIGHT outside the arms, and you setup otherwise the same as what Rippetoe suggests. Allows people to be a little more vertical with a better back position, generally.

[Dastardly]

Your back is too rounded to be acceptable, imho, and I think nisora covered the reasons why pretty well.

You might be a good candidate for a semi-sumo start position. Arms perpendicular to the floor (which might be a grip slightly inside of what you're used to), feet RIGHT outside the arms, and you setup otherwise the same as what Rippetoe suggests. Allows people to be a little more vertical with a better back position, generally.

I will try this too, I feel it is fairly likely to work.

I briefly tried moderate sumo last year just fooling around, it feels A LOT better, my back can definitely get to a better angle. But weight I can pull is about 15% less.

My squat stance on works properly when very wide, this may indeed be something relevant to deadlifts also.