Clean High Pulls?

[rikkusan]

Anyone try incorporating Clean High Pulls into their program as a substitute for Power Cleans? I just starting looking into them, and for people who, for what ever reason, can't or won't do power cleans, clean high pulls seem like a better substitute than rows. It's almost the same movement and requires similar levels of power generation, but without the racking. At the very least, it may be useful as an assistance exercise to train the top part of the power clean.

[Dastardly]

I was having this same delusion during the end of last year while I was still doing stronglifts.

I sucked at cleans, I used to split and jump forward and my racking was terrible.

So I decided to work on partial movements like power shrugs and high pulls.

Important things I did not quite realise were, that the power clean is NOT in the programme to build back muscles. It is the element that transfers the strength developed in squat and deadlift into explosive athletic power.

Other similar programmes that involves rows make you think you need a muscle building exercise to mirror the bench press (push/pull) But that is not Starting Strength.

Also, there is little point in choosing high pulls over power cleans. If you suck at power cleans you will suck at high pulls too. Just work on your racking.

For me choosing a much narrower grip helped a lot.

Partial range movements like high pulls or shrugs are for more advanced trainees. Just like an advanced lifter may train halting deadlifts & rack pulls.

Rip provides really good advice, so I for one am following it now.

[coldfire]

It does not require similar levels of power generation. A high pull is like a half squat. It is what you define it to be. I've seen people shrug the bar at the top of the deadlift a little and call it a high pull.

[rikkusan]

Thanks for the input. I tried high pulls for the first time yesterday and I did find that it required a lot of power generation. Maybe it depends on how you define them, like coldfire said. I did them by starting in a deadlift position, like a power clean, accelerated the weight slowly at first until just past the knee, extended the hips and 'jumped' (although I didn't clear the ground), like a power clean, and shrugged, getting the barbell to just above nipple level. The only difference from a power clean, the way I felt I did them, was I didn't rack the weight, I just lowered it back down. The power required felt about the same, just less technical.

Anyways, just thought I'd see what others thought. I think it would be better than rows, though. But, I'll take your advice and just continue with PC and DL

Cheers.

[Dastardly]

It does not require similar levels of power generation. A high pull is like a half squat. It is what you define it to be. I've seen people shrug the bar at the top of the deadlift a little and call it a high pull.

A high pull should look like a failed power clean attempt, where you tried to rack it but failed. You get the bar as high as possible, but it doesnt rack.

The deadlift + shrug thing is referred to as a "clean pull" and seems to be done a lot by people training olympic lifts. You deadlift then shrug and tip-toe at the same time.

Looks kinda like this:

http://www.marunde-muscle.com/fitness/clean1.gif

[coldfire]

A high pull should look like a failed power clean attempt, where you tried to rack it but failed. You get the bar as high as possible, but it doesnt rack.

The deadlift + shrug thing is referred to as a "clean pull" and seems to be done a lot by people training olympic lifts. You deadlift then shrug and tip-toe at the same time.

Looks kinda like this:

http://www.marunde-muscle.com/fitness/clean1.gif

And how do you decide whether you pulled it high enough?

[nisora33]

The high pull does not take the same level of "commitment" to finish as the power clean. Think about this for a second. Anyone who has done both will attest to this. This is partially what coldfire is getting at, I think.

Stacey

[coldfire]

Yep. You can pretty much use any weight you like and call it a high pull regardless of how high you pulled it.

[rikkusan]

Good point. Pretty hard to gauge progress if you just keep upping the weight but not lifting as high.

[lylemcd]

Good point. Pretty hard to gauge progress if you just keep upping the weight but not lifting as high.

You can catch a powerclean lower too. Are you stronger or just pulling lower and catching lower to compensate.

question: What's the difference?

[lylemcd]

A high pull should look like a failed power clean attempt, where you tried to rack it but failed. You get the bar as high as possible, but it doesnt rack.

that is only one of at least three different ways to high pull

Method 1: High pull with arm bend, pulling the bar as high as possible
Method 2: Sometimes called a shrug pull, same but you keep arms locked and just shrug up. This prevents teaching folks to arm pull
Method 3: After finishing the second pull, you pull your body down (the Chinese do it this way since it better teaches the reversal after the finish of the pull)

And you folks saying 'there's no way to tell if you pulled a high pull high enough' should google 'height gauge'. Not that you youngins should be held responsible for knowing about them: I'm not sure they are used anymore. But the point is that it is more than possible to tell how high you're pulling the bar with one so the argument that high pulls are inferior because of that is wrong. Along with the fact taht you can just as easily catch a powerclean lower (a power clean being defined as anything from about a half squat to standing up). So there's no guarantee of the height of the pull on a powerclean either.

Lyle

[lylemcd]

The high pull does not take the same level of "commitment" to finish as the power clean. Think about this for a second. Anyone who has done both will attest to this. This is partially what coldfire is getting at, I think.

Stacey

And the above matters why? I mean beyond being a bunch of macho chest thumping?

[rikkusan]

Glad to see someone defending the high pull. When I started this post I thought that they'd be pretty good to work into a program. I've been reading some articles by Bill Starr and he seems to use them quite a bit.

[uncle buck]

I've been using heavy clean pulls to teach myself not to bend my elbows during power cleans.

[coldfire]

And the above matters why? I mean beyond being a bunch of macho chest thumping?

The same reason you go below parallel in the squat. What goal do you acheive using random weights, not measurable power production and progress?

[nisora33]

You can catch a powerclean lower too. Are you stronger or just pulling lower and catching lower to compensate.

question: What's the difference?

Assuming that the same weight were used in both instances, then the pull that was cleaned and then racked high would require more force to be developed more rapidly. The latter instance (catching it lower) depends on your ability to pull yourself under the bar rapidly and then stand up with the weight on your shoulders. Both variants have relevant training applications. Which you use depends on what you want out of your training.

-S.

[nisora33]

Lyle, this was what I was picturing when rikkusan asked about high pulls:

http://www.cathletics.com/exercises/index.php?show=exercise&sectionID=2&exerciseID=100

The difference between this and a power clean racked high should be obvious.

-S.

[nisora33]

Anyone try incorporating Clean High Pulls into their program as a substitute for Power Cleans?

This was OP's original question, and if the version of the high pull in question is what I posted in my link, then no it would not be a fair "substitute."

Uncle Buck's purpose for using them seems reasonable in that it's inclusion is meant to better or enhance his actual power clean and not function as a rather poor substitute for it.

-s.

[rikkusan]

Of course High Pulls wouldn't be as good as actually doing power cleans. What I meant to imply was whether it would be a better substitute than bent-over rows for people who can't/won't do power cleans. Rows get a lot of attention as a sub for power cleans, and I just thought that High Pulls might be a better choice.

[nisora33]

Of course High Pulls wouldn't be as good as actually doing power cleans. What I meant to imply was whether it would be a better substitute than bent-over rows for people who can't/won't do power cleans. Rows get a lot of attention as a sub for power cleans, and I just thought that High Pulls might be a better choice.

Either way, our hypothetical lifter seems to be going out of his way to find an excuse not to power clean, so it would appear that he has a deeper problem than just his exercise selection.

-S.

[Dastardly]

Of course High Pulls wouldn't be as good as actually doing power cleans. What I meant to imply was whether it would be a better substitute than bent-over rows for people who can't/won't do power cleans. Rows get a lot of attention as a sub for power cleans, and I just thought that High Pulls might be a better choice.

I was one of those people like I explained. I sucked at power cleans/could not do them

Since I started starting strength, and focused on the basic programme minus overcomplicated bullshit I have rapidly improved my ability to powerclean.

If someone has a disability which prevents them from racking, then it would be a consideration. But otherwise you can learn to rack and do proper power cleans.


And again I emphasise, power clean and rows are very different you would do them to achieve to vastly different goals.