fat loss help

[msingh]

I'm trying to reduce my bodyweight from 107kg down to about 85kg in the next few months. I understand I have to eat less food, and exercise, and be disciplined about it, but not much else, having been a skinny guy all my life, this is the first time i've had to face the problem of being overweight.

The weight was gained by overfeeding while lifting weights to get big and strong which i've succeeded in, to some degree, although I have to yet to realise most of my strength ambitions. I think once i've gotten lean it will be easier to eat and train hard than my current state of trying to avoid cardio, feeling guilty about eating a lot of food as a fat man while trying to get strong.

Basically i want to go back to the original starting strength template of a skinny lean guy, then lift consitently for 3-4 months while eating enough to sustain progress during that period. Going by previous measurements, I'd put my current lean body mass between 75 and 80kg.

My plan is to do the RFL diet for 2 weeks, then go on a holiday for 2 weeks, where i'll lead a pretty active lifestyle, come back home and pick up a sane diet for a few months while exercising enough to lose whatever remaining fat i have left.

[Mr.City]

This shit again? Really?

[msingh]

What? You dont have to read or post if you dont want to. What's your problem?

[Sgsolberg]

M: Go do the Velocity diet. Come back when you are done. Don't return until then.

[msingh]

That looks good man. Thanks.

[lylemcd]

Check your math, 22kg = 45 lbs. How fast do you think you're going to get this done?

[Mr.City]

I say 'not this shit again' because this has been a constant issue and you make it sound like SS is designed to make fat dudes even fatter. That being said, good luck on your diet.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I think Mr. Singh should just cut off one of his legs. Faster, simpler, less damaging to his highly productive training than losing 45 lbs. gradually over the next few months. Maybe one of his hands too, so we don't have to read this stupid shit anymore.

[msingh]

Look i know you guys say taking fat off is easy, just get big and strong first, but it's not really that easy!!! If it was, i'd not be bothering you all about it. So please, help me don't condemn me :(

[msingh]

Check your math, 22kg = 45 lbs. How fast do you think you're going to get this done?

End of April, is that realistic?

[Mr.City]

Much like the strength gains in SS, I'd like the progress on RFL as it comes, meaning don't try to put it on a time table.

[msingh]

Much like the strength gains in SS, I'd like the progress on RFL as it comes, meaning don't try to put it on a time table.

True, just going by seasons really. Certain times during the year are more conducive to being active, and others for gaining weight and strength training.

[PVC]

Let me get this straight...you want to spend the next number of months losing 50 lbs so that you can start the novice progression as a skinny beginner, at which point you will have to gain the weight back again? When instead you could just start it now and let your body composition sort itself out in response to the heavy barbell training?

Dude.

I get full from eating a peanut. I'm busting my ass trying to gain weight so that I can get stronger, and you're sitting there at an already-useful bodyweight but have decided to waste the next few months losing weight so that, later, you can do the program with less efficiency than you could if you just did it now. And then you wonder why people respond so violently to your posts.

You make me want to strangle a kitten.

[msingh]

Let me get this straight...you want to spend the next number of months losing 50 lbs so that you can start the novice progression as a skinny beginner, at which point you will have to gain the weight back again? When instead you could just start it now and let your body composition sort itself out in response to the heavy barbell training?

Dont get me wrong, i love looking like a big strong physical specimen. But what's the point when you can't even do a few bodyweight pullups? What's teh point of looking big and strong when you're not even that strong? It's a deception I can't live with. People dont fuck with me, they bounce of me when playing sport. It's kinda nice. Btw this whole body recomp thing isn't for everyone. Body recomp is the myth that you'll suddenly transform 20kg of fat into what? Thin air? Caloric deficit = death of progress. I'm just going to stop trying to do the impossible, which is recomp. I've tried it, I do linear progression for a few weeks and then the weights get heavy, recovery goes out of the door and my motivation just falls apart.

Also i'm pretty sure people are wrong when they say weight training alone is enough to maintain conditioning. I'm sure if i go from being a fat breathless fuck to a fit lean guy, it will become easier to get through my sets with the barbell too. This is a theory of mine, unconfirmed by startingstrength.com experts, but it makes sense to me.

[MRP]

Where are your lifts at right now at your current bodyweight?

[Sgsolberg]

Body recomp works. I've gotten stronger and more muscular while maintaining my weight at 215-220 lbs (actually lost 5 lbs). You don't understand that you have an energy source sitting right on top of your weak little abs. If you really need to burn off the chub, go do one of the myriad diets that have been proposed for you. In the mean time, do as I said... go away.

[Mr.City]

Dont get me wrong, i love looking like a big strong physical specimen. But what's the point when you can't even do a few bodyweight pullups? What's teh point of looking big and strong when you're not even that strong? It's a deception I can't live with. People dont fuck with me, they bounce of me when playing sport. It's kinda nice. Btw this whole body recomp thing isn't for everyone. Body recomp is the myth that you'll suddenly transform 20kg of fat into what? Thin air? Caloric deficit = death of progress. I'm just going to stop trying to do the impossible, which is recomp. I've tried it, I do linear progression for a few weeks and then the weights get heavy, recovery goes out of the door and my motivation just falls apart.

Also i'm pretty sure people are wrong when they say weight training alone is enough to maintain conditioning. I'm sure if i go from being a fat breathless fuck to a fit lean guy, it will become easier to get through my sets with the barbell too. This is a theory of mine, unconfirmed by startingstrength.com experts, but it makes sense to me.

Have tried metcon? And your theory makes sense to you? Well, I hope it does because it doesn't to me. Losing weight will make SS easier despite the fact that the emphasis of the program is to gain weight until your hit a respectable weight (180-200+) Fat dudes cut carbs and eat not to grow but support training. It's been repeated on this forum ad nauseam.

And what's this about not being able to do a pull up? It sounds not like a weight issue but a training issue? I'm around 240 and can do a couple pull ups and about 4 chins. It sounds like you're skipping training session, indicated by your empty training log.

[msingh]

Have tried metcon? And your theory makes sense to you? Well, I hope it does because it doesn't to me. Losing weight will make SS easier despite the fact that the emphasis of the program is to gain weight until your hit a respectable weight (180-200+) Fat dudes cut carbs and eat not to grow but support training. It's been repeated on this forum ad nauseam.

And what's this about not being able to do a pull up? It sounds not like a weight issue but a training issue? I'm around 240 and can do a couple pull ups and about 4 chins. It sounds like you're skipping training session, indicated by your empty training log.

We are grownups here, haven't we got over that whole carbs bugbear? It's net calories, for fat loss you need a deficit. What's this magical combination of ratios which gives you fat loss while simulaltenously supporting muscle growth and strength increases? Sounds like pure fantasy stuff

[PVC]

Body recomp is the myth that you'll suddenly transform 20kg of fat into what? Thin air?

Not a myth. The experiences of a whole bunch of people on these forums will show you that it is very real.

The fat isn't "transformed" into anything. If a 250 lb fat weak guy starts barbell training and eats to maintain his weight, his fat will be burned off as a source of energy and he will gain muscle in response to the training. That's body recomposition. Fat is burned, muscle is gained. Two separate processes that happen at the same time. But this only happens substantially when the trainee is fat.

The reason heavier trainees stick with higher fat and protein and lower carbs is because fat and protein are essential nutrients that are used to create new tissues. Carbs are not an essential nutrient, and extra carbs are stored as fat. High fat and protein and low carbs helps promote body recomposition.

[Mr.City]

What's your diet like Msingh, and how often do you train?

[msingh]

I'm eating a lot less than I used to. Breakfast is usually clean, a coupla eggs, some fruit, glass of mik. Lunch, eat out, burger and chips, maybe a few sips of coke or a litre of milk, dinner: a coupla eggs, some veges, glass of milk.

training, i play basketball regularly, lift everynow and then, would like to do it strictly but conflicting goals get in the way. not eating enough, too much cardio, very little progress. just wanna get lean, run my cycle of SS for 3-5 months, and do something more interesting

[Mr.City]

I think it's obvious you just want to be wean and wipped and no interest in continuing a strength training program that requires you to up your intake your calorie intake. Best of luck on the way to the six pack then, however I'll say your diet doesn't really seem that strict despite your concern about weight. It seems high in carbs and kind of lacking in protein.

[msingh]

I think it's obvious you just want to be wean and wipped and no interest in continuing a strength training program that requires you to up your intake your calorie intake. Best of luck on the way to the six pack then, however I'll say your diet doesn't really seem that strict despite your concern about weight. It seems high in carbs and kind of lacking in protein.

ha, you couldnt be any more wrong. i love lifting heavy, love eating loads of food, love getting big and getting strong. it's the best easiest thing in the world. anyone can do it, just fucking eat loads and fucking lift heavy.

i dont care about carbs.. it makes no sense to worry about macronutrient ratios, total calories matters. if i've cut my total intake by half, then surely that's neough without obsessing about carbs? but whatever. i dont eat many carbs anyway. dont eat bread, pasta, what not, i'm actually pretty good with carbs!

[Mr.City]

ha, you couldnt be any more wrong. i love lifting heavy, love eating loads of food, love getting big and getting strong. it's the best easiest thing in the world. anyone can do it, just fucking eat loads and fucking lift heavy.

i dont care about carbs.. it makes no sense to worry about macronutrient ratios, total calories matters. if i've cut my total intake by half, then surely that's neough without obsessing about carbs? but whatever. i dont eat many carbs anyway. dont eat bread, pasta, what not, i'm actually pretty good with carbs!

If you're cutting your calorie intake by half, you should be obsessing over total protein intake rather than carbs.

[msingh]

when i'm lifting i maintain my protein levels pretty well. otherwise for fat loss though i dont obsess about it

[mcsquared]

training, i play basketball regularly, lift everynow and then, would like to do it strictly but conflicting goals get in the way. not eating enough, too much cardio, very little progress. just wanna get lean, run my cycle of SS for 3-5 months, and do something more interesting

sounds like you need to get your goals straight.

[sfhoser]

msingh,

You ask a lot of questions, people give you logical answers and you rebutt them continuously. Why don't you read Rip's books and follow the program for 6 months and see what happens. Your statement of "lift everynow and then, would like to do it strictly but conflicting goals get in the way" shows you are not committed to doing the program this site advocates. You feel people are picking on you but the truth is you keep asking questions that have been answered, people try to help you and you provide them nothing but empty facts, no data on what you do, where you do it, how much you do it.

I don't think you want help, you want a quick and easy way to get big and strong and have a six pack.

we all do - it doesn't exist.

[msingh]

mmm i see what you're saying, but that's not a fair characterisation. the majority of my size and strength was gained while doing hte program. sure once i stopped eating as much, stopped lifting regularly, and tried to curtail fat i've been stuck in a pattern of failure, i know that. but that doesn't mean i dont want to do the program, or that i havent done the program in the past. I'm probably at 1/3 of my progression as a novice, i still have loads of gains to make, but i cant justify stuffing huge amounts of calories down my throat to train consistently! and i havent had much luck with maintaining or progressing on limited caloric intake. i've tried since november..

[sfhoser]

Probably a good idea then would be to create a list of your priorities and present them to the people on here who actually know a thing or two - I'm not one of them. Then maybe they can help you reach those goals. That might mean continued feeding and making a more dedicated attempt at SS. Or it might mean they direct you to another program that more closely matches your personal goals. But to get there you need to be transparent about what you want - here and to yourself.

[msingh]

Ok here goes

GOALS

+ not be a fat fuck with a 44 inch waist (around 34 inches would be good)

+ Get a big squat, bench, deadlift and press (180/120/200/100 kg for singles), be able to do pullups for sets

+ get my bodweight around 90-100 kg lean (its currently a fat 107 kg, probably 27% bf, fuck knows)

[stronger]

msingh, maybe you should buy a Prowler or run some sprints

[sfhoser]

What is the current weight you are lifting those at? You are not doing power cleans?
Don't know if height would help someone with your nutrition needs but list it?
Approximate age?

Which of those items is most important? Waist size? Weight lifted? or Body Comp?

[msingh]

do sprints make you lose fat?

dunno about weights, like i said i'm about 1/3 of my way into linear progression, would have kept going except i woke up one day and realised i was fucking obese and had to stop. nah havent done powercleans for ages. i squatted 107.5kg for 3x5, 110kg for 3, deadlifted 130 i think for 5, etc. i'm not even halfway to my ceiling, just had to stop ss early because of the bodyweight issue

what i want is to get my waist down, bodyfat down, and then from there i know what to do to get strong, i've done it before i can do it again, just make sure i dont let the gut get too big

[Mr.City]

How did you get fat and how do you plan on preventing that from happening again?

[msingh]

I started doing SS as an unfit fat man of 25%bf, then did the whole 70s big diet thing, one thing led to another and i was fat

this time i'll take my bodyfat to around 10%bf, then eat enough to grow, but never allow my bf to cross 20% or my waist to get past 38. that's the plan..

[stronger]

do sprints make you lose fat?


they've worked for me and lots of other people

[Mr.City]

I started doing SS as an unfit fat man of 25%bf, then did the whole 70s big diet thing, one thing led to another and i was fat

this time i'll take my bodyfat to around 10%bf, then eat enough to grow, but never allow my bf to cross 20% or my waist to get past 38. that's the plan..

Could you go more detail about your diet? How much did you weigh at the beginning of SS? How much did your lifts go up? Did you take any layoffs?

[msingh]

Could you go more detail about your diet? How much did you weigh at the beginning of SS? How much did your lifts go up? Did you take any layoffs?

diet when? to gain weight? ate normally and in addition: drank a lot of milk, made 70s big shakes , usual stuff you guys all know about. started benching 30 odd kg (was weak), squatting 40 (50 used to feel crushingly heavy), deadlifting 60, cleaning 30 something, pressing 30 something. pretty much doubled everything in the time i did SS, and i would have kept going too if it wasnt for those meddling lipids :(

[sfhoser]

Have you ever considered that going the other 2/3rds addresses the body comp issue.

I can see why people get frustrated with you, you say you have done 1/3 of the way, not sure what data point that would be but either way, if you were following the program you would know exactly what your lifts were now or the last time you did it.

I can tell you precisely what I did today or last week with accuracy - why - because I write that stuff down.

People can't help you if your data isn't accurate.

And if you woke up one day and thought you were obese and are asking "do sprints make you lose fat" you have not done much research on how to lose weight.

These forums pretty much seem to be for people who want to be big and strong and are not concerned with six pack abs - not saying I'm big or strong but trying. They do that by lifting heavy shit and eating a ton of food.

Maybe swing over to Lyle Mcdonalds forum - he seems to have lots of info on cutting fat.

[msingh]

i've got detailed records of all my lifts, i just dont think it's relevant to discuss them here. everything i've read and heard says recomp is not possible. lean mass gains are not possible without using chemistry, so what's with telling people to try to do something impossible?? if i'm eating above maintenance then i have a surplus, in what world will that allow me to use fat for fuel when i have an excess of energy?? and who here has maintained linear progression on a deficit??

[Mr.City]

diet when? to gain weight? ate normally and in addition: drank a lot of milk, made 70s big shakes , usual stuff you guys all know about. started benching 30 odd kg (was weak), squatting 40 (50 used to feel crushingly heavy), deadlifting 60, cleaning 30 something, pressing 30 something. pretty much doubled everything in the time i did SS, and i would have kept going too if it wasnt for those meddling lipids :(

I'm confused here. It sounds like you were doing something similar to GOMAD and drinking a 70s big shake, which is about a 2100 calorie drink designed to wee men into lads. If you were eating this on top of your usual diet, which I have no clue what that is, no wonder you gained so much weight; you're eating food that has a gross amount of calories and is designed to produce a very high calorie excess. Why were you doing this?

Also, I don't understand "lean muscle gains aren't possible without chemistry." If you can't eat on a deficit and expect to progress, however you don't need such a high calorie excess. It's there for skinny men to gain weight rapidly.

[sfhoser]

Okay I think I understand your issue. You were overweight, you decided to do something about it. You found SS. You started SS as fairly untrained novice - just saying that based on the numbers you've given. You really hoped that by following this program you were going to get strong. You saw the dieting recommendation. You jumped in head first. Then you saw you weren't getting leaner you were getting fatter/bigger. But were you really getting fatter? or were you getting stronger? You have gone up 2% but how did your lifts move? What was your waist before you started.

Also Mr. City nails it, it sounds like you were big, so why were you following the dietary advice for skinny dudes i.e someone 160lbs trying to get over 200lbs?

[msingh]

2100? that's nothing. i get you guys are interested in discussing the past (blame game), but im more interested in the present and solving the problem at hard

[sfhoser]

No i think we are trying to figure out where you started, where you ended up and where you want to go.

[Mr.City]

2100 calories is a lot. That's half my calorie intake on a training day. I think pinpointing where you went wrong is key in making sure you don't do it. However, for a 240 lbs man, you deadlift and squat seem kind of lacking. I find this odd since you obviously consuming enough that recovery shouldn't of been an issue.

[sfhoser]

Oh man, I just spent the last 20 minutes slogging through your posts and they are all the same. You obviously have never received the answer you are looking for or wanted so why do you continue to ask these questions about body comp? Why don't you just tell me the answer you want I will post it back to you so then someone on startingstrength.com will have given you the advice you wanted.

btw - this is my last post to you I'm sorry but I'm not able to help you - I see other people much smarter and brighter than I have gone down this same road and it appears that I am anidiot for having tried.

Good night and best of luck. But results happen when you do the work not when you type forum comments.

[msingh]

Not interested in body recomp, i want to do it the proper tried and tested way

[msingh]

2100 calories is a lot. That's half my calorie intake on a training day. I think pinpointing where you went wrong is key in making sure you don't do it. However, for a 240 lbs man, you deadlift and squat seem kind of lacking. I find this odd since you obviously consuming enough that recovery shouldn't of been an issue.

i cant be bothered explaining anymore but sigh, i wasnt having problems with recovery when eating that much. things were just great. ok? no stalls, nothing, just pure linear progression, of weights and waists

[Mr.City]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/MrCity/3765682938_864afd95b8_o.gif

[msingh]

wish people would stop trolling me :/

[tennisgod]

So why is SS being excluded from this little weight-loss adventure?

Sounds like you got yourself in a little jam and are now panicking, which is never a good thing to do.

If you are truly only 1/3 of the way to strength utopia, then you should be able to train a certain period with caloric deficit and still increase strength or at least maintain it. Then when you hit your target 85kg, you will be as strong as you can be at that weight. Look at Gary Gibson; he's like 180lbs and squats 400 (I hate him!).... he's proof that strength and weight are not enxorably bound.

[Force Production]

Msing, here's some good reading for you:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-1.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-2.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/fat-loss-for-athletes-part-3.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html



Find out your caloric maintenence level (how much you need to eat every day to not gain/lose weight) then reduce 500kcal or more (preferably more[1000 - 1500, in the beginning] in your case since you have a lot of fat to lose.)

Aim for a two to three kg weight reduction per month, more in the beginning!



Diet
Protein: eat 2 grams protein per kg bodyweight (the more the better, especially during a caloric deficit.)

Fat: 1 gram fat per kg bodyweight

Carbs: not that important, this is where you'd want to reduce most of your calories from.



Training
Reduce volume & frequency, keep intensity. You are a novice, you can probably make nice gains and loss a lot of fat. You could try doing two heavy sets of fives each Monday and Friday and progress each session. OPH on Monday, BP on Friday. DL on Friday. Do some chin-ups/pull-ups where you want.

Cardio is optional, I like it though because it lets me eat more (= important if you are a sedentary person, since that would make your maintenance level low)



This was just a very simple, basic approach of "eat less, move more" ;) There are many different diets (LCHF, VLCD, IF, etc. ) to drop the fat, so start out easy (like above) then maybe do some more research and see what fits you.



Adjust training and diet after your needs, but let fat loss be your primary goal. You'll gain strength too since you're a novice, but still, think of that as a bonus and not an objective.


One more thing...Use the scale, the mirror and waist measurement to track progression. Weigh yourself under the same conditions (in the morning, before breakfast, after #1 & #2 ;)), otherwise your weight could vary widely.

[misspelledgeoff]

msingh, gaining muscular weight is simple. Losing fat while retaining muscular weight is also simple.

Each is simple. Neither is easy. Do you understand the distinction?

Your problem is that you are unwilling to do Hard Things. Thus, nobody here is going to be able to help you.

[Chewie_jrc]

EDIT: Oh my god...it's him again, nevermind.

[msingh]

Find out your caloric maintenence level (how much you need to eat every day to not gain/lose weight) then reduce 500kcal or more (preferably more[1000 - 1500, in the beginning] in your case since you have a lot of fat to lose.)

Thanks for the useful post. Ok i used the calculator at http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm and it says:

aintenance:
1862 Calories/day
Fat Loss:
1490 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss:
1117 Calories/day

So basically i'm aiming for 750 calories a day, or 250 calories per meal. Now gotta figure out what to eat to make up the protein and fat ratios for this.

[Locutus]

aintenance:
1862 Calories/day
Fat Loss:
1490 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss:
1117 Calories/day

So basically i'm aiming for 750 calories a day, or 250 calories per meal. Now gotta figure out what to eat to make up the protein and fat ratios for this.

That calc did not give you those values if your body weight is 107kg.

Also, in lieu of any sort of video/pic evidence, I now doubt that you exist.

[msingh]

That calc did not give you those values if your body weight is 107kg.

you're right, i had it on pounds not kilos

Maintenance:
2563 Calories/day
Fat Loss:
2050 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss:
1883 Calories/day

[WatsupHannity]

Pretty sure he put 105 pounds.

[Mr.City]

Why not just go through with RFL?

[Locutus]

Why not just go through with RFL?

Do you think he actually has the ability to understand the RFL? I don't think he actually read any of the Lyle articles.

I think I'm going to second whoever suggested the velocity diet. It's pretty idiot proof.

[msingh]

I'll do whatever, just help me sort out a meal plan and i'll do it!

So far i've got

breakfast: shake
lunch: burger
dinner: eggs, shake

all three are <= 600 calories, to make up a target of 1800kcal. or should i aim for 500ish?

[misspelledgeoff]

$100 says you make it less than one day.



Thanks for the useful post. Ok i used the calculator at http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm and it says:

aintenance:
1862 Calories/day
Fat Loss:
1490 Calories/day
Extreme Fat Loss:
1117 Calories/day

So basically i'm aiming for 750 calories a day, or 250 calories per meal. Now gotta figure out what to eat to make up the protein and fat ratios for this.

[OMG]

I'm eating a lot less than I used to. Breakfast is usually clean, a coupla eggs, some fruit, glass of mik. Lunch, eat out, burger and chips, maybe a few sips of coke or a litre of milk, dinner: a coupla eggs, some veges, glass of milk.

training, i play basketball regularly, lift every now and then, would like to do it strictly but conflicting goals get in the way. not eating enough, too much cardio, very little progress. just wanna get lean, run my cycle of SS for 3-5 months, and do something more interesting


You sound like one of those group X gurus, either fucking eat like a man and grow, or go away. Not to be mean, but you are at the wrong place to talk the shit you want to talk about. Trust me I was in your mind set a few days ago.

[msingh]

You sound like one of those group X gurus, either fucking eat like a man and grow, or go away. Not to be mean, but you are at the wrong place to talk the shit you want to talk about. Trust me I was in your mind set a few days ago.

okay

[tdwaffle15]

When will we learn to not feed the troll? This thread needs to be closed.

[Force Production]

I'll do whatever, just help me sort out a meal plan and i'll do it! Meal 1: A drink of protein powder, milk, stuff you like...

Meal 2: 200+ grams of quality meat*, rice/pasta/potatoes/whatever, sauce, vegetables/fruit, milk

Meal 3: same model as above

*circa 20 g protein per 100 g meat



Look into cottage cheese and quark. Both are good sources of protein with low calories.



When will we learn to not feed the troll? This thread needs to be closed.

I don't think he is a troll... Even if he was, others can still benefit from this thread.

[brobinson]

A little bit of advice.

You know what foods you like to eat more than anybody on the forum would. Follow the links to Lyle's site, read the basic free articles of diet setup and start now. You'll need to use calorieking.com of fitday.com and do a little basic math. Setup with whatever food choices you like that fit into the ratios and you can honestly adhere to until completion.

He gives you very easy calculations to make pretty accurate estimates on calories and protein. Follow his advice, give it a week or two and you'll know what calorie levels you'll need better than any online calculator. Adjust as necessary.

I'd suggest sticking more to whole foods for satiety and reinforcing future healthier eating habits, but some do alright with protein shakes.

Really though, follow his advice and you should be able to lose the gut and keep whatever strength gains you've made. Of course, regular adherence to training while dieting is crucial.

[msingh]

Day 1 over, turned out better than I expected. I thought the workout would be really hard being on a diet but it was actually quite good. I squatted, benched, pressed and chinned. Cut down volume to 2 worksets as recommended. My preworkout meal was awesome -- cut up some tasty cheese into cubes and flavoured it with chilli sprinkles and a glass of milk. Dinner was a cup of yoghurt and a blueberry shake using lowfat milk, tasted pretty good.

Groff you owe someone a $100 :P It's all good you keep it, i have a long way to go yet.

thanks for all the advice guys!

[Mr.City]

Geoff, you have inspired me to go on the RFL diet. I'm on the second diet and it's not too bad. The lightheadedness that accompanies the first few days of the day is like a pleasant beer buzz and I can't help but feel much calmer.

[misspelledgeoff]

city, which one is the "second diet"? Try the ECA stack if you want to kick teh buzz up a notch or two.

mrs.singh, double or nothing says you don't lose 10 pounds. video proof required.

love, groff






Geoff, you have inspired me to go on the RFL diet. I'm on the second diet and it's not too bad. The lightheadedness that accompanies the first few days of the day is like a pleasant beer buzz and I can't help but feel much calmer.

[Mr.City]

Sorry, wrote that before the coffee took effect. I'm on the second day, not the second diet. I may try a ECA stack or I may stick with the coffee. I've been around 1 to 1.5 pots a day.

[coreJack]

For what it's worth, I'm doing my own variation of strength training (because of some old injuries and imbalances); anyway, I felt my belly was getting a bit too large (we're talking way beyond just losing the abzors). So for the past 4 weeks, I cut back on calories, mostly carbs, and kept training. By the end of 4 weeks, two things happened:
1. Belly fat started going down. Still had love handles and no sign of abzors, but I definitely looked a couple of months less pregnant. Interestingly to me, but probably no surprise to most here, my bodyweight barely changed during those 4 weeks - body recomposition in effect.

2. I started laying awake at night wondering how the fuck I was going to do the next day's workout (started a thread about this). Linear progression slowed, but I didn't skip any workouts.

So two days ago, I decided to up the caloric intake a bit by consuming a bit more protein/fat and drinking more milk, but keeping the non-milk carbs modest. Hoping this will keep me progressing without blowing out the belly. This method may keep me at sub-adult male size for longer, but I'm no longer scrawny and I need to keep the gut in check since I am single (I'd care a lot less about a temporarily big belly if I were in a relationship) and getting laid is a lot more important to me than being 200lbs.

Unlike a lot of guys here, I won't give you shit for worrying how your gut looks mid-progression, but I think your idea of getting down to 10% fat and restarting SS is misguided, and a waste of an effort. Better to eat at maintenance for your current size and do SS but with a slower linear progression if necessary, so that you stay motivated and don't stall too frequently. When you see your waist coming in, I think you'll have the confidence to up the calories long before you get down to 10% bf.

[tennisgod]

For what it's worth, I'm doing my own variation of strength training (because of some old injuries and imbalances); anyway, I felt my belly was getting a bit too large (we're talking way beyond just losing the abzors). So for the past 4 weeks, I cut back on calories, mostly carbs, and kept training. By the end of 4 weeks, two things happened:
1. Belly fat started going down. Still had love handles and no sign of abzors, but I definitely looked a couple of months less pregnant. Interestingly to me, but probably no surprise to most here, my bodyweight barely changed during those 4 weeks - body recomposition in effect.

Exactly. I'm doing the same thing now... I'm older so I have to watch the BF% as it hits the gut too hard. I started at 83kg in August, and now I'm 98kg and have purposedly stayed here for about a month. As you said, the gut is still there but shrinking, lifts are still going up marginally, but the appearance is looking better.

I plan to stop every 5kg or so of additional weight and just make sure that I maximise the strength at each weight level. Nice and slow is the way I want to take this.

[coreJack]

I plan to stop every 5kg or so of additional weight and just make sure that I maximise the strength at each weight level. Nice and slow is the way I want to take this.
Yeah, I agree. It's a marathon, not a sprint, and I'd like to look good and get laid along the way. :)

Plus, I've got several joint issues from before, and a slower progression will give my body more time to heal the joints, strengthen the tendons, and hopefully lay down some new cartilage.

[msingh]

I dont understand the logic of saying just eat at maintenance and keep lifting. Surely if you're eating at maintenance your bodyfat will remain at the same level??

[Mr.City]

Msingh, doing SS as a fat man has been written about extensively both on these boards on 70sbig. If you feel that you need to lose some body fat in a hurry, you know what you must do.

[msingh]

Yeah, I am! Just remarking on the idea that you can reduce bodyfat by eating at maintenance, albeit slowly. Surely rather than maintenance it should be slightly below maintenance so you have a deficit but it's not one which prevents recovery and progress.

[tennisgod]

I dont understand the logic of saying just eat at maintenance and keep lifting. Surely if you're eating at maintenance your bodyfat will remain at the same level??

Jesus, mate. You gotta stop thinking and start to read/understand what people are writing here.

[coreJack]

Jesus, mate. You gotta stop thinking and start to read/understand what people are writing here.
Seriously. Now I know why someone earlier felt like msingh was making them want to strangle a kitten.

[Mr.City]

Yeah, I am! Just remarking on the idea that you can reduce bodyfat by eating at maintenance, albeit slowly. Surely rather than maintenance it should be slightly below maintenance so you have a deficit but it's not one which prevents recovery and progress.

If it requires calories to disrupt homeostasis and repair your muscles from last workout, it would seem reasonable to state you need to need a calorie excess. However that excess should be only big enough to support your training. How else do powerlifters keep within their weight class? If you want to lose weight while on a strength training program, you're only to spin your wheels.

The only thing eating to maintenance means, at least for someone who is training for strength, eat to maintain your training and not weight gain.

[coreJack]

The only thing eating to maintenance means, at least for someone who is training for strength, eat to maintain your training and not weight gain.
Right, and there is a further implied implication. msingh, maintenance for you at 210lbs (or whatever) and 30% bf is lower than maintenance at 210lbs and 10% bf. Why? Because muscle is metabolically expensive. Fat is not.

So if you eat at maintenance for your current body, and continue to train, then as you build muscle, your body will be forced to consume some of its fat reserves to build and maintain that extra muscle. That is how can stay at roughly the same weight and change your fat/muscle proportions.

No more questions. Just fucking do it. Or waste your time and diet down to 10% bf and start SS all over again.

[Mr.City]

If you're going to do the diet, why not wait until you've exhausted the linear gains of SS? I'm trying out the RLF diet since I took the rest of the week off to recover. It's tricky, but definitely doable. However, come Monday, I may or may not stick with the diet and continue on with SS instead.

Besides, how bad could you look at 210?

[msingh]

240 lb @ ~30% actually! i'm going to keep lifting and not lose any strength, hoping to make progress even though it will be slow going for the next 3-4 months. I've set myself some goals (130kg squat, 90kg bench, etc), but the main one is to diet down to a bodweight of about 85kg lean. Then from there eat big, lift heavy on SS for 5-6 months without worrying about becoming disgustingly obese (i'm not too far from there right now).

[Mr.City]

You weigh the same as me. Let me ask you question: is your gut "solid?" I ask because mine feels loose in a sense. I can stretch the skin and even twist it. I've had my fun with more...plump girls and notice their bellies felt more solid than mine. Part of me wants to keep on with diet to see what happens to this looseness.

Also, what's this weird "eat big and not worry about being obese" bullshit? I don't get it, man, you make it sound like SS is designed to make skinny dudes into Doug Young and fat dudes into even fatter dudes. There are plenty of fat men on SS who didn't balloon up into the Michelin Man. Being reckless with your eating only works when you're underweight or trying to gain a much of weight fast (cue the Wendler article). If you're a fat man, don't think you can continue eating like a fat man on a strength training program and become Mr. Wean and Wipped. You started off fat, you ate like a skinny guy trying to become a big guy, and you missed workouts. That's you're around 30% body fat. It shouldn't be an endless cycle of "cuttin'" and "bulkin'."

[coreJack]

240 lb @ ~30% actually! i'm going to keep lifting and not lose any strength, hoping to make progress even though it will be slow going for the next 3-4 months. I've set myself some goals (130kg squat, 90kg bench, etc), but the main one is to diet down to a bodweight of about 85kg lean. Then from there eat big, lift heavy on SS for 5-6 months without worrying about becoming disgustingly obese (i'm not too far from there right now).
So basically, you're going with your original plan, ignoring all the advice you got in this thread. Good luck with that.


I think Mr. Singh should just cut off one of his legs. Faster, simpler, less damaging to his highly productive training than losing 45 lbs. gradually over the next few months. Maybe one of his hands too, so we don't have to read this stupid shit anymore.
I'm starting to agree with Rip's advice.

[PVC]

Quoted straight from Starting Strength (is it legal for me to do this?):

"Fat people (not used here disparagingly) see a different result entirely, as their bodyweight doesn't change much for the first few months. What they notice is looser pants in the waist, legs and hips staying about the same, shirts that are much tighter in the chest, arms, and neck, and faster strength increases than their skinny buddies. Their body composition changes while their bodyweight stays close to the same, the result of a loss in bodyfat due to their increasing muscle mass."

If you want to lose a whole bunch of weight for the next few months and then gain it back for the next few months after that, that's your choice. But seriously, come on.

[Mr.City]

I think Msingh was going to run RLF for a couple weeks, even though he run it longer since he's a category 3 dieter according to the book, and then take a 2 week break and then a moderate diet. Listen man, why not do this shit in the spring or when it gets warmer? Day 2 into RFL and I'm freezing. Nothing helps and it makes Chicago winters fucking terrible.

[msingh]

Hmmm i think a lot of you guys have problem with common sense and logic. If i want to gain 5kg of muscle, how much fat will I gain? 5kg? That means i'd be up to a fat and obese 120kg bw in the real world. In the madeup beleive world where i can recomp up 5kg, my bodyweight would stay the same but my lbm would increase by 5kg. I dont believe in fairy tales.

If i am 85kg, lean, and strong, and then eat big and lift heavy as per SS, then i'll gain some muscle, a lot of strength. Say i gain 5kg of muscle, my lbm is now 80kg and my fatmass is up 5kg (say), so my bodyweight is around 95kg. This is way more realistic and doable than some recomp pipe dream.

I'll do RFL around mid feb, in the meantime i'm just cutting calories and keeping active -- my goal is to be <100kg by the end of feb.

[BigJavs]

why do you guys keep feeding this troll??

[stronger]

why do you guys keep feeding this troll??

he's not trolling, he just cannot make up his mind and take good advice

[Mr.City]

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=11225&highlight=obese
http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=13900&highlight=obese

Finally, there's me, Mr.City, who lost 10 lbs on SS and then regained it because I got sloppy with my diet. I've followed the program for a long time now, and have remained within the same weight (230-240) and have had people complement me on looking thinner when I started the program. People say I look like I weigh around 200 than 240. Am I a magic man?

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Hmmm i think a lot of you guys have problem with common sense and logic.


Hey look, we're not the fat ass who can't make progress on the program. If you know it all then why do you keep asking questions?

I have read most of your posts on this board, and have noticed a consistent pattern. You lack the will power to do semi-difficult things. This behavior most likely pervades your entire life. You start things yet rarely finish them. It must be frustrating to be you.

That said, there is no way this program will work for you. The lifts will get heavy, and the level of discomfort will be too great for you to handle. The diet will suck, and you won't be happy while doing it. Don't subject yourself to this. Quit while you are ahead.

It is a shame because Rip couldn't have made it simpler. There are only 5 fucking lifts over 2 workouts! If you are an out of shape, fat fuck then common sense says you don't need 6000 calories a day to squat half your body weight!

You lack the intestinal fortitude to see this program through. Acceptance is your first step towards recovery.

[mcsquared]

I'm gonna ask this question for my sake..I've been on SS for close to a month and a half now. Anyone seeking my stats can check out my log in General Training Logs. Regardless, I've been doing GOMAD and eating a ton, aka 5-6kcals per day. I gained weight and have gotten stronger but my gut has gotten up to 38-39", and my BF is around 23-24%. I cut back on milk and have been eating cleaner, thus seeing a decrease in weight but not a decrease in strength. I'm still doing my linear progression, but now have to cut back in order to lose the inches off my waist(Military requirement, can't go past a 39" inch waist, even having a 37+ is catching me some major hell.) I'm keeping protein intake high and following Lyle McDonalds advice on eating about 16-18cals per pound of bodyweight for now(baseline diet). Good idea? Thoughts? Flames?

[msingh]

In that quote rip is saying what amounts to "Just do SS if you're fat you'll get leaner, if you're lean you'll gain weight." Something always struck me about that part of the book. He'll tell you himself he's not an expert on nutrition and everyone knows body composition is about nutrition so rip is out of his bailwick (as he says sometimes, often when it comes to nutrition). I'm pretty sure he was talking about really obese guys, you know 300lb+ monsters for whom any exercise, even walking would lead to fat loss. Not just above normal fatties. Rip will also tell you that for a complete untrained novice, "anything works", so of course obese fuckers will get leaner and grow some muscle too. Who cares?

[Mr.City]

Sounds like you got it. Do what you're doing now and you'll be Just Fine.

[PVC]

why do you guys keep feeding this troll??

I DON'T KNOW!

He says "what do I do?"

We all say "do this."

He says "no, you guys are wrong. You lack logic and common sense. With that in mind please tell me, what do I do?"

We say "fuck you, if you don't want our help then go somewhere else."

He says "please try to be helpful and take personal attacks elsewhere."

We say "stop wasting your time typing and just do the fucking program."

Then he disappears for a bit. Then he starts a new thread. And the cycle repeats.

[msingh]

What you miss is the fact that i'm actually following the only real dieting advice given in this thread, already, ie, restricting calories, keeping protein intake high, and lifting weights (for 2 worksets). I've almost finished 2 days and have another 5 to go before i leave for a holiday for 2 weeks. So offer productive advice please and I'll take it, but dont tell me to try to do the impossible (stay at maintenance and put on muscle AND burn fat which sounds absurd).

[coldfire]

so of course obese fuckers will get leaner and grow some muscle too. Who cares?

What about STUPID fuckers? Will they get leaner and grow some muscle?

[coreJack]

Edited for accuracy.

What you miss is the fact that i'm actually following the only real dieting advice given in this thread that agrees with my preconceived notions when I started this thread, already, ie, restricting calories, keeping protein intake high, and lifting weights (for 2 worksets, because three worksets is hard, and I don't like doing hard things). I've almost finished 2 days and have another 5 to go before i leave for a holiday for 2 weeks (where I will eat whatever the fuck I want and put on more weight, but it's ok because now I have a great training/diet plan). So offer productive advice please that helps me achieve my already decided goal of getting down to 10% bf and then doing the novice SS progression and I'll take it, but dont tell me to try to do the what plenty of people have done in the past, which is to stay at maintenance and put on muscle AND burn fat because it does not compute in this wee brain of mine (and is perhaps the only part of my body that is underweight).

[misspelledgeoff]

Excellent Analysis.


I DON'T KNOW!

He says "what do I do?"

We all say "do this."

He says "no, you guys are wrong. You lack logic and common sense. With that in mind please tell me, what do I do?"

We say "fuck you, if you don't want our help then go somewhere else."

He says "please try to be helpful and take personal attacks elsewhere."

We say "stop wasting your time typing and just do the fucking program."

Then he disappears for a bit. Then he starts a new thread. And the cycle repeats.

[Mr.City]

Listen, Msingh has decided what road he's gone down, however McSquared could benefit from some of the attention that Mr. Msingh is getting here.

Also, I just had my first cheat meal on RFL on day 3, and I have to say that after going on a 2000 calorie or so deficit for a couple days, an omelet with some taters and toast felt like sex. I love the psychological effects of this diet.

[drecar]

240 lb @ ~30% actually! i'm going to keep lifting and not lose any strength, hoping to make progress even though it will be slow going for the next 3-4 months. I've set myself some goals (130kg squat, 90kg bench, etc), but the main one is to diet down to a bodweight of about 85kg lean. Then from there eat big, lift heavy on SS for 5-6 months without worrying about becoming disgustingly obese (i'm not too far from there right now).

i dont understand your approach. why not achieve the strength goals that you stated and then do the fat loss diet. Your increase in size and fat accumulation is temporary on your way to the strength goals, isn't it?

[brobinson]

I'm gonna ask this question for my sake..I've been on SS for close to a month and a half now. Anyone seeking my stats can check out my log in General Training Logs. Regardless, I've been doing GOMAD and eating a ton, aka 5-6kcals per day. I gained weight and have gotten stronger but my gut has gotten up to 38-39", and my BF is around 23-24%. I cut back on milk and have been eating cleaner, thus seeing a decrease in weight but not a decrease in strength. I'm still doing my linear progression, but now have to cut back in order to lose the inches off my waist(Military requirement, can't go past a 39" inch waist, even having a 37+ is catching me some major hell.) I'm keeping protein intake high and following Lyle McDonalds advice on eating about 16-18cals per pound of bodyweight for now(baseline diet). Good idea? Thoughts? Flames?

I certainly don't see why anybody would flame you. You're tracking your training and nutrition so you know where you're at. If your waist doesn't shrink enough for your job requirements within the coming weeks, adjust as necessary. Sounds like a good plan.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Mcsquared, I have always had good success dropping weight by doing strict Atkins for 2 weeks. Don't expect any progress on your lifts, but you sould be able to take 10-15 pounds off.

Make your weight, and start back with the program.

PS, I was only flaming msingh.

[zepled37]

Mr msingh...

I suggest you try testosterone supplementation. Proven to add muscle and strength as well as helps promote fat loss without requiring much hard work on your part.

[misspelledgeoff]

put another way...grow a pair.


Mr msingh...

I suggest you try testosterone supplementation. Proven to add muscle and strength as well as helps promote fat loss without requiring much hard work on your part.

[mcsquared]

Yeah, I'm gonna see how things go. I dont "test" till May, so maybe late March-early April timeframe is when I'll start really stressing about fat loss...I'm definitely watching my carbs, keeping my protein intake high, and moderate fat intake. I'm going off of Lyle McDonald's Baseline diet and seeing how that works for me. With the exception yesterday, where I pigged out on some burgers at a buddy's BBQ, I've been seeing relatively stable weight maintenance/ weight loss.

[Expat]

MSingh,

I don't post very often and I probably shouldn't encourage this thread, but I can't help myself. I mean this criticism constuctively, and I hope you'll take it that way.

You want to get bigger and stronger. You also want to lose bodyfat. These are both difficult things and particularly difficult to do efficiently at the same time. My sense is that you haven't tried to do either one of them very seriously for any length of time.

According to your posts, you started SS about 18 months ago. After what should be 216 workouts, you're only up to about a bodyweight squat and a half-bodyweight press. You noted yourself that "...I do linear progression for a few weeks and then the weights get heavy, recovery goes out of the door and my motivation just falls apart."

As far as dieting goes, you admit that you've been eating to be "70s Big" and now you're upset that you've gained some weight. But you said in your early posts that you weighed about 95 kg when you started. So you've been eating like crazy and only gained 12 kg (about 26 lbs) in 18 months. Given that you say you made progress on your lifts, presumably some of this 26 pounds is muscle. This hardly seems like the end of the world.

Huge numbers of posters on this forum will tell you that SS has worked for them. I doubt you are any different from the rest of us and that SS will work for you, too, if you do the program seriously and as designed.

My advice:


Do the program as written. Including the power cleans.
When it gets hard and "recovery goes out the door" man up and do your sets anyway.
Stop eating to be "70s Big." GOMAD, protein shakes, and massive calories are for skinny kids who need to gain weight and maybe guys who are moving massive weights that require major calories for recovery, not guys like you and me who already carry around too much weight and are moving sane numbers. As a starting point, try eating a little less than you did before SS and see how your weight and recovery respond. And remember, setting PRs is hard. This kind of pain is normal, not a reflection of "not recovering."
After six months or a year of doing the program seriously and a few resets, you will probably come close to doubling your lifts. You will also have gained some weight, including probably some bodyfat. People on this forum will tell you that it will then be easy to lose weight, and they're right. The physiological reason is that that, when you have more muscle, it is easier to burn off fat. But I think the real reason is more psychological. A person who has gone through over 100 heavy squat workouts in a year, repeatedly setting PRs, develops his willpower as much as his posterior chain. After SS, when it comes time to lose weight, you'll probably be successful with almost any sane diet, because dieting is about willpower more than anything else.

I say this from experience. When I started SS over a year ago I was already overweight. I didn't worry about it and did the program anyway. I didn't do GOMAD, but ate plenty and gained some weight. I don't know how much was muscle and how much was fat, but when I tested for singles last summer, I had my squat at 376, my bench at 250 and my DL at 404. Not bad for a 5'6" 46-year-old, and I'm pretty sure I'm stronger now. My weight peaked at around 215 lbs (and my waist was bigger than you say yours is). Until about a month ago I was still making linear progression (albeit with small increases and several resets). Unfortunately, a double inguinal hernia and an umbilical hernia got in the way.

I didn't lift after I discovered the hernia and the doc told me not to lift for four weeks after the surgery. In other words, time to diet. I've been doing cardio and dieting and I've found it pretty easy to drop 2-3 lbs per week. I'm at 199 now.

You can make excuses about why SS doesn't work, or you can just do the program. I honestly encourage you to do the latter, but if you don't, I don't think many people here are interested in hearing you blame SS for your lack of progress.

Good luck.

[PVC]

Expat,

Please try to be helpful and take personal attacks elsewhere. ;)

[EJLouis]

I don't post very often...

Great post. I hope to see more.

[BruteForce]

I dunno why people are surprised when they are 20+ percent bf eating GOMAD..... It's a strongman's diet, meant for moving maximum weight.....

[nisora33]

I dunno why people are surprised when they are 20+ percent bf eating bunches of excess calories..... It's a strongman's diet, meant for moving maximum weight.....

Fixed.

[toddmr]

People on this forum will tell you that it will then be easy to lose weight, and they're right. The physiological reason is that that, when you have more muscle, it is easier to burn off fat. But I think the real reason is more psychological. A person who has gone through over 100 heavy squat workouts in a year, repeatedly setting PRs, develops his willpower as much as his posterior chain.

Great quote, Expat. Hope you'll be posting more.

[Expat]

Thanks for the kind words. To give credit where it is due, I'm pretty sure I've seen something similar said by Rip in SS. Something along the lines that repeatedly doing something you're not sure you can do builds character. He was correct, and it has been one of the biggest impacts of over a year on SS for me.

[strengthstarter]

Fixed.

Really? You needed to "fix" that?

A gallon of milk is about 2400 calories. By itself, in excess of most people's basal metabolism, and then of course most people would eat maybe 1500-2500 calories of food on top of that. One would have to have a pretty damn high level of daily activity (more than just lifting every other day and some light cardio or whatever) to burn through what most would eat on a GOMAD diet.

So yes, people should not be surprised if their bf% goes up while on GOMAD. It is probably going to happen. Diet is by far the strongest factor in one's steady-state bf%. They should also not be surprised if eating this way and doing the program makes them much stronger.

[Thomas Padron-McCarthy]

I didn't lift after I discovered the hernia and the doc told me not to lift for four weeks after the surgery. In other words, time to diet. I've been doing cardio and dieting and I've found it pretty easy to drop 2-3 lbs per week. I'm at 199 now.


Expat, not that I know anything about anything, but is it really a good idea to diet (in the sense of eating below maintenance) while you can't lift? Won't your body burn muscle (since it's not in use, and therefore obviously not needed) instead of fat?

[nisora33]

Really? You needed to "fix" that?

A gallon of milk is about 2400 calories. By itself, in excess of most people's basal metabolism, and then of course most people would eat maybe 1500-2500 calories of food on top of that. One would have to have a pretty damn high level of daily activity (more than just lifting every other day and some light cardio or whatever) to burn through what most would eat on a GOMAD diet.

So yes, people should not be surprised if their bf% goes up while on GOMAD. It is probably going to happen. Diet is by far the strongest factor in one's steady-state bf%. They should also not be surprised if eating this way and doing the program makes them much stronger.

My comment was directed at BruteForce, and for reasons that you're probably not privy to. And if you think I'm against eating like mad to gain weight and strength, you've not read many of my posts, have you?

-S.

[gordonrumble]

Expat, not that I know anything about anything, but is it really a good idea to diet (in the sense of eating below maintenance) while you can't lift? Won't your body burn muscle (since it's not in use, and therefore obviously not needed) instead of fat?

I'm interested in this as well. I'm lined up for a hernia, and that would be a pretty convenient time to not eat anything, but a pretty inconvenient one to exercise.

[misspelledgeoff]

from reading Lyle's RFL handbook, my assumption is that you wouldn't lose much provided you were in deep ketosis but still ate 0.8-0.9 grams protein per pound LBM. I'm sure LBM losses would be even less with limited weight training, but even without it I think losses would be minimal.


I'm interested in this as well. I'm lined up for a hernia, and that would be a pretty convenient time to not eat anything, but a pretty inconvenient one to exercise.

[Expat]

Expat, not that I know anything about anything, but is it really a good idea to diet (in the sense of eating below maintenance) while you can't lift? Won't your body burn muscle (since it's not in use, and therefore obviously not needed) instead of fat?

To be honest, I don't know if it is a good idea. But we'll find out.

I needed to lose some weight and I have a window of six weeks where I can't lift. It seems to me that the alternative to dieting and doing light cardio is not dieting and not doing anything. I'm not crash dieting, I'm losing about 2-3 lbs per week, so my hope is that I'll lose a lot more fat than muscle. And when I start lifting again I gather it is easier to get back muscle than to build it the first time.

I can't really counter your argument, but If you were in my position, would you really have a different plan? Remember, at around 214, 5'6" and 46 years old, I was fat, albeit pretty strong for an old guy. At around 199 now, I'm still fat and I suspect I'm still pretty strong. Fortunately, I can start lifting again in only about 9 days. I plan to continue to mildly restrict calories and try to lose about 20 lbs, but we'll have to see how that works out.

[JDB]

This is my first post here, but I have been reading these forums daily for several months. I started SS in Nov. I ate pretty freely and gradually increased my calories and milk up to about 6500/day. I started the program at 6ft 185lbs 35in waist having been doing magazine-type 6 day splits unsuccessfully. My strength was lacking and I wanted to gain size. Up to the holidays I hadn’t missed a workout or meal and I increased to 215lbs, 40in waist (still 6ft) and my lifts were 320 squat, 325 deadlift, 265 bench, and 180 press (all for prescribed sets/reps) and was still progressing. I inadvertently wound up with three weeks off due to family and work requirements. I reset all of my lifts roughly 20% and started back on the program with reduced calories and lower carbs. I, like mcsquared am in the military and have a vested financial interest in keeping my waist manageable. Currently I have my calories at 3000/day with my only carbs from milk postworkout. I have gradually reduced to keep a good match with recovery and progression. I am increasing in all lifts currently at 295 squat, 290 deadlift, 255 bench, and 155 press and plan to blow past my previous numbers. Interestingly (or not so much) my weight has stayed at 215lbs and my waist has dropped 1.5 inches. My point is that it can be done, you just have to experiment and find what works for you individually, calorie-wise. I am by no means an expert on any of this…most of my intel is gained from Rip’s books and these boards. I guess my point is to msing, you can maintain bodyweight and loose bodyfat, just find what works for you.

[BruteForce]

Really? You needed to "fix" that?

A gallon of milk is about 2400 calories. By itself, in excess of most people's basal metabolism, and then of course most people would eat maybe 1500-2500 calories of food on top of that. One would have to have a pretty damn high level of daily activity (more than just lifting every other day and some light cardio or whatever) to burn through what most would eat on a GOMAD diet.

So yes, people should not be surprised if their bf% goes up while on GOMAD. It is probably going to happen. Diet is by far the strongest factor in one's steady-state bf%. They should also not be surprised if eating this way and doing the program makes them much stronger.

He said that because it is his firm belief that a calorie is a calorie and mine is not. He's just poking fun at a looooooong dispute we had on another thread here on the board.

[jameson]

1 calorie = 4.18400 joules

Has that changed?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

the "calories" in food are actually kilocalories though.

[jameson]

the "calories" in food are actually kilocalories though.

Touche. Feel free to bring on the shenanigans.

A kilocalorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree Celsius. Nevertheless, a calorie is still a unit of measurement.

So my question is still, has this changed?

Perhaps BruteForce feels that NUTRIENTS are the variable in food. A calorie is a calorie...is a calorie.

[BruteForce]

Touche. Feel free to bring on the shenanigans.

A kilocalorie is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree Celsius. Nevertheless, a calorie is still a unit of measurement.

So my question is still, has this changed?

Perhaps BruteForce feels that NUTRIENTS are the variable in food. A calorie is a calorie...is a calorie.

Yessir jameson, you've hit it on the head. That is my stance. When I say I don't believe a calorie is a calorie, I'm referring to the variables in nutrient quality and density. Of course a calorie as a measurement of energy is the same.

[TrackJunkie]

Also, I imagine different calories are attached to different physiological effects. The almost no calories you get from coffee will come with jitters and a burst of high energy, while the large number of calories you get from thanksgiving dinner make you fall asleep during football games.

[murrie]

howling and screeching kitten.... strangling a cat now. That dude could drive a teetotaler to drink!..............

[nisora33]

I guess people were healthier and happier in the Dark Ages, you know, before this whole pesky modern science thing happened.

-S.

[BruteForce]

Hey nisora, just curious if you've called Wendler an idiot yet for his retarded whole food diet yet?

[nisora33]

Hey nisora, just curious if you've called Wendler an idiot yet for his retarded whole food diet yet?

You'd do well to learn a thing or two about context. Like, what is the Wendler diet's purpose?

So what exactly do you think it is I think about whole food diets anyway?

[BruteForce]

Simple question. Pretend I'm a newbie, ectomorph hargainer, Please post a diet that will take me from 170lbs at 5'10, 15% bf, to 200lbs at 16 or 17%bf. I'm being serious, not smart ass. I'm not going to take it or post it anywhere else. Just wanna see how you would go about doing it.

[nisora33]

Simple question. Pretend I'm a newbie, ectomorph hargainer, Please post a diet that will take me from 170lbs at 5'10, 15% bf, to 200lbs at 16 or 17%bf. I'm being serious, not smart ass. I'm not going to take it or post it anywhere else. Just wanna see how you would go about doing it.

You didn't answer my question. What is it exactly you think that I think about whole food diets? PM me.

[Mr.City]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HPAs6mRxJY0/SNcCxGy7RyI/AAAAAAAACRc/HboKvkJkL-M/s400/baskinrobbins.jpg

As soon as I get off this damn diet, I'm going to chug one of these down and then go into a diabetic coma. It shouldn't be hard considering how long I'm in ketosis on this diet.

[nisora33]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HPAs6mRxJY0/SNcCxGy7RyI/AAAAAAAACRc/HboKvkJkL-M/s400/baskinrobbins.jpg

As soon as I get off this damn diet, I'm going to chug these down until my body goes into a diabetic coma. It shouldn't be hard considering how long I'm in ketosis on this diet.

Mr. City, don't you know that there are little itty-bitty goblins that hide in all that high-fructose corn syrup and saturated fat? These goblins are masters of the dark arts, one of which is to magically shift nearly all calories consumed to fat stores. It doesn't matter how many calories you eat either because they have the ability to literally double and even triple the amount of energy contained in every gram of carb and fat, too.

Now keep in mind you can't observe these goblins IN ANY WAY. No one can. You just have to trust me that they exist and that it works this way. There can be no other explanation.

-S.

[PVC]

Mr. City, don't you know that there are little itty-bitty goblins that hide in all that high-fructose corn syrup and saturated fat? These goblins are masters of the dark arts, one of which is to magically shift nearly all calories consumed to fat stores. It doesn't matter how many calories you eat either because they have the ability to literally double and even triple the amount of energy contained in every gram of carb and fat, too.

Now keep in mind you can't observe these goblins IN ANY WAY. No one can. You just have to trust me that they exist and that it works this way. There can be no other explanation.

But wait! These evil creatures can be flushed from your body with help from the Quantum Pendant (http://fusionexcel.com/products_quantumscience.html)! This pendant is made from natural minerals that are fused and structurally bonded together at a molecular level, so you know it must work. It produces scalar energy that helps to enhance the body’s biofield and protect you from evil goblins that hide in saturated fats! Here are some of the many health benefits of the Quantum Pendant:

Reduces inflammation
Promotes unclumping of cells
Enhances circulation
Enhances immune and endocrine systems
Has the ability to destroy fat-storing goblins
Enhances cellular nutrition and detoxification
Enhances cellular permeability
Increases energy
Helps to protect DNA from damage
Helps to retard the ageing process
Helps to fight cancer cells
Strengthens the body’s biofield preventing
electro-magnetic waves from affecting one’s health
Increases focus and concentration

The Quantum Pendant was invented by a guy with an MD...so you know it HAS to work! Buy yours today!

[misspelledgeoff]

I find it weird that Processed Foods are really just Whole foods that have been Processed. A bag of Frito's is teh Devil because it is processed. But if I ate corn on the cob (whole) smeared with butter (whole) and salt (whole), no demons would get in my belly. But what are Frito's but corn, saturated fat and salt? I guess that's when the goblins come--during the Processing and all.


Mr. City, don't you know that there are little itty-bitty goblins that hide in all that high-fructose corn syrup and saturated fat? These goblins are masters of the dark arts, one of which is to magically shift nearly all calories consumed to fat stores. It doesn't matter how many calories you eat either because they have the ability to literally double and even triple the amount of energy contained in every gram of carb and fat, too.

Now keep in mind you can't observe these goblins IN ANY WAY. No one can. You just have to trust me that they exist and that it works this way. There can be no other explanation.

-S.

[Mr.City]

I'm legitimately curious to what will happen to me should I down one or two of those after being on a low calorie, low carb diet like RFL. I suspect my face will blow off.

[nisora33]

I'm legitimately curious to what will happen to me should I down one or two of those after being on a low calorie, low carb diet like RFL. I suspect my face will blow off.

And the end of your cock will explode like one of those Looney Tunes cigars, no doubt. But I'm just theorizing at this point.

-S.

[Mr.City]

And the end of your cock will explode like one of those Looney Tunes cigars, no doubt. But I'm just theorizing at this point.

-S.

Boy, wouldn't my face be red. What's left of it anyway.

Oh yeah, what ever happened to Msingh's title?

[TomC]

Those quantum pendants are a real find. I was disappointed that I couldn't order one. The amount of bullshit on that site was truly overwhelming.

[strengthstarter]

That shake looks good, but after a month of Paleo, refined sugar doesnt' really taste as good as it used to.

[strengthstarter]

I find it weird that Processed Foods are really just Whole foods that have been Processed. A bag of Frito's is teh Devil because it is processed. But if I ate corn on the cob (whole) smeared with butter (whole) and salt (whole), no demons would get in my belly. But what are Frito's but corn, saturated fat and salt? I guess that's when the goblins come--during the Processing and all.

Do you really find it weird, or are you just participating in the masturbatory strawman argument that has been raging in this thread?

Here are my concerns with "processed foods," whenever I eat them:

1. With processed foods, it is easy to not eat what you think you are eating. Usually this means added sugar or oil that you may not want. Fritos plain corn chips seem to be fine in this regard, although I didn't check the sodium.

2. Processed foods are at varying levels predigested which means they will absorb faster and may spike your insulin more than a whole food counterpart. One great example is juice, compared to a whole fruit smoothie, compared to eating a piece of fruit.

3. Many "whole foods" subject to an industrial process may not be exactly what you think. For example, if you are eating salmon to get some omega-3 fats, it may contain significantly less omega-3 and more omega-6 if it is farm-raised. The same is true of grass-fed meats vs. corn fed.

And a story:

Last night I went to the store looking for some grass-fed meat (this kind of meat contains more omega-3s, and I am trying to keep a 1:1 ratio of omega-3 to omega-6), and all the "organic" meat said is was vegetable-fed. Um, a vegetable such as corn? Of course they labeled it as "high omega-3" but that doesn't mean anything. I couldn't tell off the bat if this was a deceptive label or not so decided to pass, and buy the fish next door that wasn't raised on cat food.

Then I went over to buy eggs, and there were 4 different iterations of cage-free/free-range/organic eggs all from the same brand and in similar packaging. Also vegetable-fed and claimed to be high in omega-3. It turns out you have to open the eggs to see the nutrition label, and luckily they boasted 35mg or omega-3 per egg, which is really a fairly negligible amount.

So, no hidden "demons". But eating whole foods does make it easier to keep track of what one is actually ingesting, instead of leaving it up to whatever happens to be the cheapest caloric filler that day (usually a corn product). If there is a sense of demonization of these foods, its because it can be difficult to keep track of all the extra crap that gets stuffed into these foods.

[nisora33]

Do you really find it weird, or are you just participating in the masturbatory strawman argument that has been raging in this thread?

Here are my concerns with "processed foods," whenever I eat them:

1. With processed foods, it is easy to not eat what you think you are eating. Usually this means added sugar or oil that you may not want. Fritos plain corn chips seem to be fine in this regard, although I didn't check the sodium.

2. Processed foods are at varying levels predigested which means they will absorb faster and may spike your insulin more than a whole food counterpart. One great example is juice, compared to a whole fruit smoothie, compared to eating a piece of fruit.

3. Many "whole foods" subject to an industrial process may not be exactly what you think. For example, if you are eating salmon to get some omega-3 fats, it may contain significantly less omega-3 and more omega-6 if it is farm-raised. The same is true of grass-fed meats vs. corn fed.

And a story:

Last night I went to the store looking for some grass-fed meat (this kind of meat contains more omega-3s, and I am trying to keep a 1:1 ratio of omega-3 to omega-6), and all the "organic" meat said is was vegetable-fed. Um, a vegetable such as corn? Of course they labeled it as "high omega-3" but that doesn't mean anything. I couldn't tell off the bat if this was a deceptive label or not so decided to pass, and buy the fish next door that wasn't raised on cat food.

Then I went over to buy eggs, and there were 4 different iterations of cage-free/free-range/organic eggs all from the same brand and in similar packaging. Also vegetable-fed and claimed to be high in omega-3. It turns out you have to open the eggs to see the nutrition label, and luckily they boasted 35mg or omega-3 per egg, which is really a fairly negligible amount.

So, no hidden "demons". But eating whole foods does make it easier to keep track of what one is actually ingesting, instead of leaving it up to whatever happens to be the cheapest caloric filler that day (usually a corn product). If there is a sense of demonization of these foods, its because it can be difficult to keep track of all the extra crap that gets stuffed into these foods.

Where's the fuckin' strawman? Bruteforce's arguments in this and other threads amounts to "dark magic goblins" in your food nonsense. Except change the word "goblin" to toxins or whatever the buzzword happens to be at the moment so people can sell bullshit diet and nutrition recommendations that conform to their hidden agenda (most often, "to make money"). Get your head out of your ass, no one is hating on whole foods. Way to miss the fuckin' point.

-S.

[nisora33]

Also, most people on this board are completely fucking humorless.

[misspelledgeoff]

Actually I do find it weird. But I'm kinda weird like that.

And I'm not sure what a "mastubatory strawman" is, but count me in.

For the sake of full disclosure, after coming off of the RFL diet I've been eating pretty much Whole foods. At least it's my definition of Whole foods. It may not meet your Whole Food Standards. E.g, canned spinach and canned green beans have been Processed, so there are probably Demons in there. And I am pretty sure the dead chickens I've been shoving down my gullet were not Happy Natural Free-Range chickens. And God only knows what Goblins are in my Homogenized Milk.

Alas, my motto has always been "Better Living through Chemistry".


Do you really find it weird, or are you just participating in the masturbatory strawman ...

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HPAs6mRxJY0/SNcCxGy7RyI/AAAAAAAACRc/HboKvkJkL-M/s400/baskinrobbins.jpg

As soon as I get off this damn diet, I'm going to chug one of these down and then go into a diabetic coma. It shouldn't be hard considering how long I'm in ketosis on this diet.

Don't forget the cigars, whiskey, hookers, and blow. :D

[strengthstarter]

Where's the fuckin' strawman? Bruteforce's arguments in this and other threads amounts to "dark magic goblins" in your food nonsense. Except change the word "goblin" to toxins or whatever the buzzword happens to be at the moment so people can sell bullshit diet and nutrition recommendations that conform to their hidden agenda (most often, "to make money").

You state that BruteForce is asserting that there are "dark magic goblins" in processed food. This is an exaggeration of what he has said made for the purpose of refuting it. That is a strawman.

You are right that there is a motivation for people to try to make money off of whatever kernel of truth they can find by twisting it to their agenda. See my point about the omega-3 eggs. Note that I didn't say the eggs had mysterious hidden toxic goblins in them.

People who process food also want to make money. It is easier to hide filler ingredients in processed foods. They are chosen based on (1) reducing the cost of the product (2) increasing demand for the product. The results are not always particularly good for you, nor are they particularly diverse. This matters when trying to tweak one's diet to lose weight or maximize athletic performance.


Get your head out of your ass, no one is hating on whole foods. Way to miss the fuckin' point.

Ad hominem attacks are fun fallacies too.

Your entire response actually misses, or just perhaps dismisses, the cental point of my post, which is not to bemoan 'hating on whole foods', but to respond to a conundrum presented by misspelledgeoff: "I find it weird that Processed Foods are really just Whole foods that have been Processed." In other words, "What the hell is the difference between eating a bag of Fritos and some corn on the cob?" I tried to list some reasons why people differentiate.

The introductory statement was included because I wasn't sure if misspelledgeoff was actually posing a conundrum or whether he was just participating in... well, whatever the fuck you want to call the last few milkshake responses in this thread. Funny, I guess.


Also, most people on this board are completely fucking humorless.

Stacey, if you were narcissitic, this statement would be hilarious. You are so close. Keep trying-- you'll get it, I'm sure.

[strengthstarter]

Don't forget the cigars, whiskey, hookers, and blow. :D

And the subsequent massive shit. Pretty much a requirement before any hangover is 'cured'.

[nisora33]

You state that BruteForce is asserting that there are "dark magic goblins" in processed food. This is an exaggeration of what he has said made for the purpose of refuting it. That is a strawman.


Quote taken from the following post:http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=95508&postcount=38




2. They are clean calories that your body will have to work to absorb, increasing the speed of your metabolism and thermogenesis.

3. As you have seen by calculating the totals, you will still be in a large calorie surplus with extremely high protien allowing for maximal muscle gain without such an enormous fat gain, like the one from your previous diet.

5. You will actually recover better because you are getting a more complete amino acid spectrum from the whole food protien sources than you would from a simple liquid source, or a fast food source(A.K.A.) easy source.

6. Every carb you are eating with the exception of the P.W.O. carbs are Branched Chain Carbs or Complex carbs. They have a much lower Glycemic impact(a.k.a. they raise your blood sugar levels at a steady rate instead of a spike that you get from simple carbs.) As anyone who understand nutrition knows, the key to LBM gain and Fat loss is insulin control.

7. The fat sources in this diet are much healthier for your body as far as cholesterol control, and metabolism control.

8. The increased fiber from the insoluble vegetable sources will help with the digestion of the high amount of solid protiens and fats.


All the parts highlighted in bold are either greatly exaggerated or outright false.

Can I pleaze haz moar bro-science now?

[strengthstarter]

For the sake of full disclosure, after coming off of the RFL diet I've been eating pretty much Whole foods. At least it's my definition of Whole foods. It may not meet your Whole Food Standards. E.g, canned spinach and canned green beans have been Processed, so there are probably Demons in there. And I am pretty sure the dead chickens I've been shoving down my gullet were not Happy Natural Free-Range chickens. And God only knows what Goblins are in my Homogenized Milk.

Just to be clear about it, I'm not trying to impose any standard here. But since you listed some foods and invoked the demon joke/fallacy I'll just briefly comment.

I don't really know much about canned veggies. I tend to avoid them because I prefer the taste of fresh or frozen. If I bought some in a pinch, I'd probably check the sodium to make sure it wasn't not out of control.

To me, the whole happy chicken thing is a secondary concern. The primary reason I care about where my meat comes from is that I'm trying to up my omega-3 to omega-6 ratio without having to take an ass-ton of fish oil supplements. I've not had much luck tracking down reliable numbers for chicken, but it does seem to make about a factor of four difference in beef and fish.

Homogenizing milk is a pretty benign proces. It makes the fat globules in the milk smaller and more regular in size to facilitate staying in solution. It is a purely physical change. Pasteurization can affect the flavor due to malliard reactions at the higher temperatures, which I start to notice if I drink that ultra-pasteurized stuff.

[misspelledgeoff]

Homogenizing milk is a pretty benign proces. It makes the fat globules in the milk smaller and more regular in size to facilitate staying in solution. It is a purely physical change. Pasteurization can affect the flavor due to malliard reactions at the higher temperatures, which I start to notice if I drink that ultra-pasteurized stuff.

ya but what about teh hormoanz?

[nisora33]

Let me be clear: I think whole foods are vitamin and mineral dense at a level that processed foods are not. This is a Good Thing. Nutrients that are not "essential"--in the sense that you must have them to survive--can nevertheless be optimal for health and performance, so the diet that is the most vitamin and mineral dense is probably the best one for you long term. This is also good. You're also getting more antioxidants this way. What's there not to like? For someone looking to lose weight, whole foods are useful, also, because they fill you up quicker and they slow gastric emptying. The former keeps you from eating too much at once, and the latter keeps you from wanting to eat again real soon. If protein makes up a large part of what you eat, then this too will get you fuller faster and keep you fuller longer, as will the addition of some fat. Unprocessed ruffages like dark, green leafy vegetables also fill you up quick and slow gastric emptying. These are all good reasons to recommend a whole food diet high in protein and some fat with plenty of ruffage, especially for someone looking to lose a little weight.

Here's where Brute falls short in his assertions, however.

He says (and I'm assuming you do too, because you're defending him?) whole foods raise your metabolism. It is true that food has a thermic effect. Protein has a higher thermic effect than carbs, carbs has a higher thermic effect than fats (surprising, I know), and while the effort that it takes to digest whole foods may add an additional thermic effect, the effect is miniscule in the bigger picture. The "bros" over at musculardevelopment.com have overestimated the impact that this thermic effect has on daily calorie expenditure, I assure you:

"I want to mention here, and I’ll come back to this later, that the effect of whole body metabolism due to the above effects are generally fairly small, especially compared to all of the other variables that affect energy balance such as activity levels. For example, shuffling around carbs and fat might affect metabolic rate by a total of 3%. So for every 100 calories of fat you replaced with carbs, you’d burn 3 more calories per day" (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/calories-nutrients-or-food.html (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/calories-nutrients-or-food.html)).

Brute says whole foods somehow lead to leaner gains at the same caloric intake in processed foods. Despite my prodding here and elsewhere, he has yet to offer any evidence as to how this can happen. Maybe you can. Let's look at "calorie partitioning." Calorie partitioning has to do with where your body stores the calories that you feed it. There are several determinants of this, one of which is genetics. Some folks just tend to partition more calories toward fat than muscle. That doesn't mean that someone like this can never get lean and strong, it's just a lot more difficult for him or her. The other is protein intake. Studies have shown that just the mere presence of protein in your blood stream signals the muscles to upregulate protein synthesis. When protein synthesis is upregulated, good things happen to the calories that you feed yourself, especially if a large number of these calories come in the form of protein: protein calories are snatched up and partitioned toward muscle. The last and most important factor is your training: when you apply resistance to your muscles, a chemical signal is sent to the muscle cell nucleus, and the cell nucleus sends a signal to the cellular machinery to increase protein synthesis, meaning amino acids are grabbed from the blood stream if you make them available to it and used to build new muscle tissue. In short, proper resistance training encourages partitioning of calories toward muscle. Some will still go toward fat, but you've optimized how much goes toward building muscle. Steroid use will further optimize your partitioning, but that's a discussion for another time.

What about fat burning? Low to moderate intensity cardio is fueled by oxidative metabolism. Fat is burned preferentially during activities like this in the presence of oxygen to produce ATP (although in order not to oversimplify things, I should mention that your body never SOLEY relies on only one metabolic pathway for fuel--the degree to which one is involved over the others may be higher during certain activities), and so one could argue for what BruteForce and I think, maybe, Jim Wendler calls "big man's cardio," where the activity is not of such an intensity as to interfere with strength gains or negatively impact recovery. Still, the best approach for a beginner just starting something like Starting Strength would be to forgo even this for a little while until work capacity has improved, then add cardio back in a little later IMO.

But that's it. Apart from genetics, proper training, proper eating (plenty of calories, high protein intake) and performance-enhancing drugs of various types, that's about it. Even meal frequency has less impact on metabolism than you'd think (I can dig up references if you'd like).

What will not make any MEANINGFUL difference is the "cleanliness" of the foods consumed. I've described the advantages of whole foods and the extent of their impact on health and metabolism. So if you've got anything other than blind faith up your sleeve to prove your point, now would be the time to offer it. What IN the whole foods causes leaner gains, what IS the mechanism of action at the center of these lean gains? That's what you have to show:

"Unfortunately, overfeeding hasn’t been examined in as great a detail in humans. There are studies comparing overfeeding of fat to carbohydrates (in the form of glucose, sucrose, or fructose) and, over the long-term gain in bodyfat are pretty much identical. The mechanism of the fat gain is different but, when the same number of calories are overfed, the same amount of fat is gained. I’d note that these studies rarely if ever include activity and that has the potential to impact on where calories ‘go’ quite significantly" (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html)).

A final note: as I've said a number of times, when putting a diet together you MUST look at the individual and the individual's needs and desires. A diet should be CONTEXT DEPENDENT. You should decide what the person's goals are, and then you decide what the optimal way to do that is, plus you have to factor in what approach will best ensure DIETARY adherence. And I still contend that anybody who has the self-discipline and determination to squat HEAVY three times a week, plus deadlift on one of those days and bench and press alternately, will have the discipline and focus later to switch from a processed, eat-whatever-the-fuck-you-want diet to a healthier, whole food diet for the long term. And a year eating like shit will not negatively impact long-term health, as I've said before.

[JayvH]

Hi,
although the thread was carried a little bit away to whole foods I'd like to go back to topic. Even though the thread starter may be a little hard to argue with I also have my problem to believe that doing the SS program and just maintain your weight will have the same effect than doing it with a caloric excess.
I am referring to an article of Lyle McDonald:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
I get that the phenemoneon of gaining muscle while using fat only works for overfat beginners. I'm not sure, but I don't think that a beginner in Lyle's defintion is the same as a novice in Rip's defintion. A guy who can squat 110kg is more than a beginner and I think this quote from the article is now applicable


Furthermore, as folks become better trained, it becomes more difficult to gain muscle under any condition. The training stimulus is higher and the impact of training is lessened.
So the situation that was in place for the overfat beginner has reversed itself in someone who is leaner and/or better trained. Fat cells are no longer insulin resistant and ‘pushing fat calories’ away; quite in fact they are ready to take up excess calories at any time. And since training has a lesser impact on muscle growth, the odds of getting the calorie shunting effect becomes lower and lower approaching nil.By the way I'm always reading GOMAD has been made for skinny kids. Well I'm at 75kg ca. 17 or 18% BF and 29 years old (not really a kid anymore). I'm not at the whole GOMAD yet, but I drunk 2 litres until now but will change to 3 because press and bench press got stuck. Does anyone recommed against it?

[strengthstarter]

Can I pleaze haz moar bro-science now?

I won't try to defend those assersions. And I'm kinda done talking in detail about that thread because its clear there's some personal shit-stirring going on between you, BruteForce, and OMG.

Maybe I just don't get the joke you were trying to make:


Mr. City, don't you know that there are little itty-bitty goblins that hide in all that high-fructose corn syrup and saturated fat? These goblins are masters of the dark arts, one of which is to magically shift nearly all calories consumed to fat stores. It doesn't matter how many calories you eat either because they have the ability to literally double and even triple the amount of energy contained in every gram of carb and fat, too.

The shake isn't full of goblins, but it will load you up with over 2000 calories in one sitting, and make you hungry for another one in 2 hours if it knocks your insulin out of whack enough. And yeah, HFCS is a damn good at fucking a person's blood sugar up, especially when injested in large quantities.

I probably would have laughed if you had responded to a double cheeseburger or something a bit more reasonable to be a PWO meal/cheat meal/whatever, because then it would be a nice counterexample to that sort of overzealous 'eat clean' mantra. But IMHO that shake is so preposterous (which is why it was funny) it sounded like you might actually advocate a diet consisting of many of those for a hard-gainer. Yeah, it might solve a calorie problem, and I appreciate that point you make that such a diet has low adherance risk, but it also risks introducing some pretty bad long-term habits.

I guess the process of writing this out is crystallizing my kinda negative gut reaction to some of the 70's-Big style eat-anything advocacy sometimes seen here. (And I don't really know enough about you, Stacy, to know if if you fit into this camp). What happens when these hard-gainers with bad/marginal dietary habits need to stop eating milkshakes and need to eat to maintain, or lean out? Doesn't this just delay the inevitable adherance problem you're talking about? Except that if they don't get it under control, they might actually start developing real health problems. I guess that's motivation, but it just seems like a potentially dangerous short-cut.


Here's where Brute falls short in his assertions, however.

I think that all of this is a productive response to BruteForce's assertions, and I think I agree with all of what you said. I will say that another benefit of a whole foods approach is usually a heightened clarity/control over what one eats.

From my personal context, in which I have gained and lost a lot of weight in the last 10 years of my life (multiple times, on various diets or lack thereof), I think a whole-foods-based approach is finally going to stick, because bumping me out of the convenience mentality has helped me set some pretty bad habits. And, when I get to a place where I feel comfortable eating to grow (I am really looking forward to this), I should be able to just scale what I am doing now now (Paleo) up, maybe throwing in some milk, grains, or whatever into the mix to boost the calories. I'm actually in the process of upping my calories gradually, to dial in a reasonable calorie deficit, that won't fuck with me too much in the gym.


Does anyone recommed against it?

I don't, but then I don't know what your goals are. If you feel your bf% if under control and want to push your eating for more gains, go for it.

[BruteForce]

I won't try to defend those assersions. And I'm kinda done talking in detail about that thread because its clear there's some personal shit-stirring going on between you, BruteForce, and OMG.

Maybe I just don't get the joke you were trying to make:



The shake isn't full of goblins, but it will load you up with over 2000 calories in one sitting, and make you hungry for another one in 2 hours if it knocks your insulin out of whack enough. And yeah, HFCS is a damn good at fucking a person's blood sugar up, especially when injested in large quantities.

I probably would have laughed if you had responded to a double cheeseburger or something a bit more reasonable to be a PWO meal/cheat meal/whatever, because then it would be a nice counterexample to that sort of overzealous 'eat clean' mantra. But IMHO that shake is so preposterous (which is why it was funny) it sounded like you might actually advocate a diet consisting of many of those for a hard-gainer. Yeah, it might solve a calorie problem, and I appreciate that point you make that such a diet has low adherance risk, but it also risks introducing some pretty bad long-term habits.

I guess the process of writing this out is crystallizing my kinda negative gut reaction to some of the 70's-Big style eat-anything advocacy sometimes seen here. (And I don't really know enough about you, Stacy, to know if if you fit into this camp). What happens when these hard-gainers with bad/marginal dietary habits need to stop eating milkshakes and need to eat to maintain, or lean out? Doesn't this just delay the inevitable adherance problem you're talking about? Except that if they don't get it under control, they might actually start developing real health problems. I guess that's motivation, but it just seems like a potentially dangerous short-cut.



I think that all of this is a productive response to BruteForce's assertions, and I think I agree with all of what you said. I will say that another benefit of a whole foods approach is usually a heightened clarity/control over what one eats.

From my personal context, in which I have gained and lost a lot of weight in the last 10 years of my life (multiple times, on various diets or lack thereof), I think a whole-foods-based approach is finally going to stick, because bumping me out of the convenience mentality has helped me set some pretty bad habits. And, when I get to a place where I feel comfortable eating to grow (I am really looking forward to this), I should be able to just scale what I am doing now now (Paleo) up, maybe throwing in some milk, grains, or whatever into the mix to boost the calories. I'm actually in the process of upping my calories gradually, to dial in a reasonable calorie deficit, that won't fuck with me too much in the gym.



I don't, but then I don't know what your goals are. If you feel your bf% if under control and want to push your eating for more gains, go for it.

Thank you for your cander and inserting some real life experience into this thread. The reason I believe so firmly in whole foods is this. I took myself from 190-195 at 22% to damn near 230 at 19%bf in 6 months naturally. I did it using a clean food diet.

Nisora, please show me ONE example of someone following the eat whatever you want diet that increased their weight over 30lbs with a slight decrease in bf.

[jameson]

Nisora, please show me ONE example of someone following the eat whatever you want diet that increased their weight over 30lbs with a slight decrease in bf.

Me....sort of. And this has nothing to do with Nisora and his thoughts on nutrition. (In fact, he and I have probably had more arguments on training, nutrition, and life in general than you two.) I will not pretend that this will work for everybody, BUT I was "skinny-fat" after years of being underfed and riding 100+ miles and running 40+ miles on a weekly basis. I began eating whatever I wanted while doing bodybuilding splits and MAINTAINED my 10%bf while gaining 43lbs (135lbs to 178lbs @ 5'10"). After that I had marginal increases in bf%.

That being said, I have gained a considerable amount of bf on GOMAD. BUT I DON'T CARE. I've also gained a considerable amount of strength and am no longer afraid of zombies. Now I'm at 220 with 16-18%bf and my lifts continue to go up.

ALSO, given that I have the determination to do heavy squats week after week, I will most likely have the same determination to eat clean once I'm ready. The idea that people will become accustomed to eating like crap and will have a hard time getting of that diet is a hard pill to swallow. Frankly, I don't care for such a person anyways.

[jameson]

I'll point out the important statement from my post above.

I gained LBM of 43lbs, HOWEVER, I was underfed to begin with.

My point is, NEVER say NEVER.

[BruteForce]

Me....sort of. And this has nothing to do with Nisora and his thoughts on nutrition. (In fact, he and I have probably had more arguments on training, nutrition, and life in general than you two.) I will not pretend that this will work for everybody, BUT I was "skinny-fat" after years of being underfed and riding 100+ miles and running 40+ miles on a weekly basis. I began eating whatever I wanted while doing bodybuilding splits and MAINTAINED my 10%bf while gaining 43lbs (135lbs to 178lbs @ 5'10"). After that I had marginal increases in bf%.

That being said, I have gained a considerable amount of bf on GOMAD. BUT I DON'T CARE. I've also gained a considerable amount of strength and am no longer afraid of zombies. Now I'm at 220 with 16-18%bf and my lifts continue to go up.

ALSO, given that I have the determination to do heavy squats week after week, I will most likely have the same determination to eat clean once I'm ready. The idea that people will become accustomed to eating like crap and will have a hard time getting of that diet is a hard pill to swallow. Frankly, I don't care for such a person anyways.

Should've been a little more specific. You were 5'10 135. you are most likely an ectomorph. You could've swallowed a vat of pig lard and put on quality weight because you started off so vastly underweight. My question is this: Show me ONE example from someone 5'10 or so, AT 190lbs or so, who has put on over 30lbs of quality mass WITHOUT an increase in bf who is following the whatever i want to eat diet. And if you noticed, once u got to a more average weight for your height, you began packing on the bf. You also admitted that before you began the diet, you were running or riding 140 miles per week. Your body was ridiculously overtrained and under nourished. You are THE prime example and candidate for a gomad diet. Guys like you are not what I am arguing about.

[jameson]

Brute,
I would definitely characterize myself as a Meso, which I believe, would only strengthen your case for "once u got to a more average weight for your height, you began packing on the bf." I should never have even been below 165lbs to begin with. I'm wondering though, are you two even arguing over the same thing? There have been SO MANY posts that it's hard to tell if either of you know what your arguing over. You've gotten more specific with each post and he...well, he's being the Stacey we all know and love.

[strengthstarter]

Brute says whole foods somehow lead to leaner gains at the same caloric intake in processed foods. Despite my prodding here and elsewhere, he has yet to offer any evidence as to how this can happen. Maybe you can.

Just saw this, and wanted to respond mostly for clarity:

I would claim ignorance of or disagree with maybe of the specific broscience/whatever claims he's made. But as you said, a healthier diet is going to have general and overall advantages. The extent and type of advantage is going to vary from person to person, but generally speaking, setting habits to eat nutrient-dense foods, manage blood sugar levels, decrease gut irritation, etc. can AND PROBABLY WILL spill over into areas such as improved sleep, elevated mood, and more consistent energy and hunger levels throughout the day, including during a workout. In addition, I think it is easier to scale and adapt a diet based primarily on whole foods to that person's nutritional needs/desires as they change.

[BruteForce]

strengthstarter, again thank you for your candor.

I am sick of hearing the term broscience. (not for you saying strengthstarter) That term is for some newbie fuck who reads MD like its the fucking bible and believes everything it says blindly. I HATE md because its full of mostly shit is written to make people believe they can make pro level muscular and strength gains if they buy 5 billion dollars worth of supplements a month. I base my info and beliefs on my personal success with such a diet and the testimonys of lots and lots of experienced lifters and trainers, not some nerd in a white coat in a lab.

[nisora33]

Just saw this, and wanted to respond mostly for clarity:

I would claim ignorance of or disagree with maybe of the specific broscience/whatever claims he's made. But as you said, a healthier diet is going to have general and overall advantages. The extent and type of advantage is going to vary from person to person, but generally speaking, setting habits to eat nutrient-dense foods, manage blood sugar levels, decrease gut irritation, etc. can AND PROBABLY WILL spill over into areas such as improved sleep, elevated mood, and more consistent energy and hunger levels throughout the day, including during a workout. In addition, I think it is easier to scale and adapt a diet based primarily on whole foods to that person's nutritional needs/desires as they change.

Now we're getting somewhere. Improved sleep means better recovery and probably better partitioning. Better workouts and the ability to continue to add weight from session to session and over longer periods of time will lead to this as well. You provided me with a mechanism for how leaner body mass gains MIGHT come about from a cleaner diet. This is still speculation, but it's a start.

-S.

[nisora33]

The reason I believe so firmly in whole foods is this. I took myself from 190-195 at 22% to damn near 230 at 19%bf in 6 months naturally. I did it using a clean food diet.


Hmmm. What method did you use to measure your before and after bodyfat percentage? Just curious.

I'm asking because bioelectrical impedance like we use at the gym has been known to have an accuracy of -/+3%. Day-to-day individual variances are a huge factor in the outcome of such a reading. And I see that the difference between your before and after bodyfat readings was, um, 3%.

-S.

[astanto2]

I am sick of hearing the term broscience.

This is the best term ever. Perhaps not fairly applied to your whole foods diet thesis, but the terminology is tremendous. I'm going to start using other variations, like Broetry, Brothmatics, Bro-ology, and Brothropology. You won't convince me not to.

The other thing is that, while you may have had tremendous gains eating "clean," you can't prove the counterfactual -- what might your gains have been eating "unclean," with the same macro ratios, overall calories, and training?

The plural of anecdote is not data, bro..errrrr....i mean, BruteForce. And dude---I'm totally messing around. Take it with a grain of Bralt.

[BruteForce]

I only trust the old fashioned calipers for the bf test. Those bioelectrical measures are all over the page. they depend on time of day, amount of food and water you've eaten, how much water you're holding blah blah. The old fashioned calipers are the best way. I also went by the mirror and my waist size. I actually dropped almost 2 waist sizes while bulking.

[BruteForce]

This is the best term ever. Perhaps not fairly applied to your whole foods diet thesis, but the terminology is tremendous. I'm going to start using other variations, like Broetry, Brothmatics, Bro-ology, and Brothropology. You won't convince me not to.

The other thing is that, while you may have had tremendous gains eating "clean," you can't prove the counterfactual -- what might your gains have been eating "unclean," with the same macro ratios, overall calories, and training?

The plural of anecdote is not data, bro..errrrr....i mean, BruteForce. And dude---I'm totally messing around. Take it with a grain of Bralt.

Lol, i love the terms dude. I understand they're jokes. I simply can't stand them being used in reference to me. But anyway, even if i had wanted to eat a "dirty" counterpart, there was simply no way to get in the necessary amount of meat and vegetables i needed for my macro goals. I was eating 60 or 70 grams of protien per meal a minimum of six times per day. I also ate at least one sweet potato and a small serving of a raw green vegetable. The veggies were necessary for positive nitrogen balance. I've asked nisora to simply lay out a diet in a post outlining the exact foods he would use in a dirty bulk diet. I'm just waiting for that. Taking the gallon of milk out of the equation, and shooting for the 450 - 500 grams per day protien requirement that I used in my diet, that would leave a 370 protien gram deficit needed to be satisfied by whatever food was layed out in the "dirty" diet, soooooo, I'm all ears nisora.

[BruteForce]

Now we're getting somewhere. Improved sleep means better recovery and probably better partitioning. Better workouts and the ability to continue to add weight from session to session and over longer periods of time will lead to this as well. You provided me with a mechanism for how leaner body mass gains MIGHT come about from a cleaner diet. This is still speculation, but it's a start.

-S.

Stacey, I wasn't aware that you needed things pointed out to you in such a detailed manner as far as the wide reaching benefits of a clean diet. Do you really need me or strengthstarter to sit here for pages and explain the generalized health and recovery benefits of a clean diet over a dirty one? A cleaner diet means a healthier, more neutral state of being as well as the ability to maintain a positive nitrogen balance much more easiliy. A healthier more balanced body means a healthier, more positive state of mind, which in turn leads to much more productive workouts and the ability to push through boundaries easier. An extremely simple experiment is this stacey: Wednesday, before your workout, make your preworkout meal a dirty one, cheeseburger and fries, whatever you want. Make your postworkout the same, whatever you want, and see how you feel. Then friday, make your preworkout a clean meal, 2 cans of tunafish with a large white potato and a big glass of skim milk. Have the same meal after your workout and see how you feel. You might've met your calorie and protien requirements with the dirty meals, just as you would with the clean ones, but, i guarantee, you will feel like ass if you eat whatever you want before and after. And, no stacey im not just following along with strengthstarters statement just to seem competent, i simply didn't realize you needed such handholdiing when it came to clean food benefits.

[nisora33]

Stacey, I wasn't aware that you needed things pointed out to you in such a detailed manner as far as the wide reaching benefits of a clean diet...i simply didn't realize you needed such handholdiing when it came to clean food benefits.

So it's going to get personal. How far do you want to take this...?

You apparently can't read for shit, or didn't read my other posts at all, the ones where I outlined the benefits of a whole food diet. It doesn't make you look smart when you do that, it just makes you look dense.

Let's compare what I have done to what you have done. From day one of our arguments on here, I went to extreme length and detail to back up my claims. The search function will reveal this. At every step of the way, you had ample opportunity to do the same. But instead I had to coax and coax you. Still, after all this time, you don't get it: when someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim to back that claim up, which is exactly what I have been doing all along. And the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof has to be. So in your case, claiming a 30 lb. weight gain past the 200 lb. bodyweight mark utilizing an extreme caloric surplus and with a reduction in body fat, the stakes are even higher.

Now finally, you're starting to defend your point of view beyondjust saying, essentially, "Hey man, look at me I did it, and lots of other people have to, just trust me." That's weak and you know it.

You claim to have reduced your body fat percentage while in a pretty high surplus of nothing but whole foods. As evidence, you offer your firsthand experience. That's great, firsthand experience is important and can possibly go along way toward establishing the efficacy of something. But not when it's just one person's experience. One "data point" does not a solid conclusion make. The reason is because a single individual can vary extremely from the rest of his or her counterparts in terms of his response to something like a diet. Your experience could be an isolated instance, so you need further evidence to make sure that this isn't just genetics or any number of other factors apart from diet influencing the outcome.

The results that you experienced on your diet are not typical. I'd even call them far-fetched. I'd be willing to bet that you can't find very many instances of someone experiencing similar results except from those taking steroids to optimize calorie partitioning...

-S.

[gordonrumble]

BroteForce (heh), got to say, I find your claims hard to believe. Going to 230 with a decreasing BF% not on gear seems like you'd have to be a genetic monster, unless you're very tall. Using the words 'clean' and 'dirty' dieting already has me annoyed, since they're such bullshit terminology (what defines clean and dirty anyways? Is no-skin KFC clean? Is whole milk dirty? Is tuna w/ mayo clean or dirty?), and there isn't much in the way of science that proves that eating traditionally 'clean' foods makes much of a difference when protein and calories are equivalent. Science also can indeed give answers, because they try to use more than anecdotal evidence to reach conclusions. If you really want to prove your point, get fifty young intermediate males, put half on dirty and half on clean diets, and report the results. I'd be interested to hear about that, because as far as I can tell the 'clean dieting' thing for pure muscle/BF dimensions (not health, for which it is obviously better) is mostly bullshit.

[nisora33]

Still, after all this time, you don't get it: when someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim to back that claim up, which is exactly what I have been doing all along. And the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof has to be. So in your case, claiming a 30 lb. weight gain past the 200 lb. bodyweight mark utilizing an extreme caloric surplus and with a reduction in body fat, the stakes are even higher.

Another way of stating all of that is to say that in a debate, when someone asks you to explain yourself (i.e. satisfy the burden of proof) they're not saying they don't understand, they're asking you, among other things, to illustrate that you in fact understand what you're talking about.

When I look back at these posts, I see you (on the one hand) persistently claiming that I don't understand the benefits of a whole food diet, even though I have repeatedly acknowledged that there are many very important benefits, most of which are born out over the long-term. And so the cycle keeps repeating itself: I say whole food diets are great, you say I'm a fucking idiot and I can't even grasp the fundamentals of Diet and Nutrition 101. This has happened so many times now that I don't even know if you're actually reading any of this or if all you're really just interested in is "winning." You do this in spite of the fact I have clearly and repeatedly demonstrated a level of understanding that is greater than that of the average layperson (although I DO NOT claim to be an expert).

I (on the other hand) have mapped out in some detail the basic mechanisms of how diet and physiology interact, and I've even discussed the implications of it, illustrating that, within the current model of nutrient metabolism--which is fairly complete--I might add--there is no room for what you're saying can happen to happen. If whole foods somehow lead to leaner gains, no one has elucidated the exact mechanisms by which this is occurring, although I don't think you're likely to find such a thing because it doesn't exist (unless we're talking about "dark magic goblins"--hence the joke earlier--or bunk science). In other words, I on the other hand have fulfilled my burden of proof to lay bare the foundations for my beliefs, and I have done it in as thorough and concise a fashion as I know how. My contention has never, ever, ever, ever, ever been that whole food diets consisting of lean meats, healthy fats and veggies are not beneficial, or aren't the way that we should be eating most of our lives. Rather, my point is, and has been from the start, that based on the current model of nutrient metabolism there is no mechanism through which what you say can happen does happen, and that, therefore, two diets which are identical in calories and protein will lead to the same percentage of body fat gain, provided that all other things are kept equal (that includes training methodology).

I think my mistake has been trying to use rationality with a person who refuses to think rationally about things, doesn't understand how debate works, and believing that you actually cared about anything other than winning or being right. So this "debate" is pointless.

Brute, steer clear of me. You can go fuck yourself.

-Stacey

[BruteForce]

I am not involving emotion. Yes, I know you understand what I was talking about. I'm not calling you an idiot. My question is this, layout a dirty diet for me in writing , that will allow me to get in 450+ grams of protien, with around the same amount of carbs, and around 150 or so grams of fat. And again, in my book, its not about a lab test. It's about what I see work in the gym day in an day out. Not what a bunch of noobs say works because some paid pro says it does, not what a bunch of scientists who are most likely physically unfit themselves, but guys in the gym who put in the work and the time at the plate. I don't give a SHIT about winning this argument, I can't on this site. I wasn't aware this had turned into an argument honestly, simply a debate. You're the one getting angry, not me. Gordon, hell yea I would love to see that study, sadly it hasn't been performed yet. Nisora, you won't see those results because you won't see guys who wake up everyday consistently for months on end cooking that much food every morning and shoving it in their face even though it sucked. The diet also included a huge cheat meal every few days, a HUGE shake post workout, and a scoop of whey with every glass of water i consumed.

[hbriem]

Why would *anyone* want or need 450+ grams of protein?

[nisora33]

Why would *anyone* want or need 450+ grams of protein?

You might if you we're "geared."

-S

[brobinson]

So Msingh, how did the first week of the diet plan go?

[jameson]

Brute,

I think those who care just want to know why you believe "whole foods" generate leaner gains than processed foods. What exactly is in "whole foods" that create these gains? And where's the research to back up your claim?

This is a good debate turned sour. In all fairness, you haven't provided any sources other than your own experience. Anecdotal evidence is great, but it only strengthens the idea that "not everone is the same" if you can't prove it across a broad population. I doubt you are some genetic freak, so I assume you probably fit in the general population. Surely, with all your posts about pointing to data (while never doing so) you could actually point us to...data.

I'm prodding here because I'd like to know - not to make this any uglier than it already is. :)

[BruteForce]

I'll tell you guys what I told nisora. I got all my info from certain other boards that I frequent and from reading several books on nutrition etc. etc., and also, most importantly from personal experience. Is there any more factual proof for an individual than to try something out on themselves personally and achieve optimal results? I cannot post studies based on these claims because they have not been performed. No one has done a double blind study on LBM gains in experienced weight lifters that perform the same routines, with half eating a dirty diet and half a clean one. I've still yet to see a "dirty" diet layout from anyone on here. I'm just asking for a generalized list of foods and the times you would consume them to maximize effectiveness, that is it. The simplest way I can put it is this, I know that a processed food that you can get from a fast food chain etc, etc, is began its life as a whole food, but, what do you think happens to it after its fried in grease, and covered in mayo etc. etc? All I can say is this fellas, I can't post scientific proof that these claims work, I can tell you with certainty that if you eat cleanly, in enough of a surplus, with a huge surplus of protien, and you train balls out heavy, and get your rest in, you will grow past what you think your limit is weight wise. Call me an idiot or whatever you want for not posting data, I didn't learn this approach from a lab rat, I learned it from experienced lifters and thats more than enough for me. Again if you would like those other board names to just go through them, feel free to pm me.

If you would like a list of the boards that I've done my leaning on, etc etc. Just PM me. I don't wanna list em out of respect for this board. I'm sorry Nisora turned this into an argument guys, I was simply trying to get some good discussion going.

[Brenden]

Bruteforce, I'm curious what your definitions of "clean" and "dirty" are. I don't believe I've seen those terms defined in this discussion.

[BruteForce]

my definitions are these

Clean= unprocessed, unfried, lean forms of meat i.e., tunafish, lean ground beef, sirloin steak, lean chicken, eggs, WHOLE MILK in moderation, complex unbleached carbs, essential fatty acids, leafy green veggies, white rice and potatoes for P.W.O., low G.I., lower sugar natural fruits(not canned in syrup) natural fruit juices.

dirty= anything fast food outside of baked chicken from kfc, or lean cuts of meat at restaurants, boxed frozen shit from the store, powdered weight gainers, ordered pizza, potato chips, friies, greasy fats, cokes, etc.

And again, agree with these or don't, I could care less, they are just my opinion that I'm voicing as we all do. I am not a diet guru, I can't present definitive case studies because they don't exist.

And could someone please post a generalized "dirty" diet structure just for everyone to look at and compare?

[misspelledgeoff]

Hey Brute, weren't you the guy that called out Lyle McDonald on the Diet Help thread? (lol)

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14626


If I recall, Lyle summed up your nutrition views as 'retarded bro-nonsense'.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=95549&postcount=39


When are you going to publish a book on nutrition to set all the haterz straight?

[msingh]

So Msingh, how did the first week of the diet plan go?

Good, i'm down to 105.5 kg, lost a cupsize on my moobs, but still looking and feeling pregnant. I actually started to enjoy dieting at some stage, find thinking about the sensation of hunger as eating into my bodyfat reserves.

More than ever I'm convinced all of the guys we admire for getting the most out of SS (AC, Justin, KittenSmashGuy, etc) started doing the program as fit, lean fellas who were able to sustain linear progression longer due to being able to eat more food (And hence continue to build muscle and strength) than guys who peak out around a 300lb squat with 25+% bf.

[misspelledgeoff]

You might be a bigger idiot than BruteForce. Tough call.


Good, i'm down to 105.5 kg, lost a cupsize on my moobs, but still looking and feeling pregnant. I actually started to enjoy dieting at some stage, find thinking about the sensation of hunger as eating into my bodyfat reserves.

More than ever I'm convinced all of the guys we admire for getting the most out of SS (AC, Justin, KittenSmashGuy, etc) started doing the program as fit, lean fellas who were able to sustain linear progression longer due to being able to eat more food (And hence continue to build muscle and strength) than guys who peak out around a 300lb squat with 25+% bf.

[astanto2]

More than ever I'm convinced all of the guys we admire for getting the most out of SS (AC, Justin, KittenSmashGuy, etc) started doing the program as fit, lean fellas who were able to sustain linear progression longer due to being able to eat more food (And hence continue to build muscle and strength) than guys who peak out around a 300lb squat with 25+% bf.

what convinced you, the fact that believing that dovetails nicely with you desire to not work hard?

[PVC]

More than ever I'm convinced all of the guys I admire for getting the most out of SS (AC, Justin, KittenSmashGuy, etc) started doing the program as fit, lean fellas, because I've chosen to disregard the testimony of the large number of individuals who started out as fat guys and managed to gain muscle, lose fat, and get very strong on SS.

Corrected for accuracy.

[msingh]

Very strong to me means squatting more than 400lb. Plenty of mediocre fat guys here who will never get that far, I'm not one of those. Learn from the best guys, dont settle for 50 inch waists and 320 lb squats.

AC: started off a fit guy who did a lot of conditioning work before embarking on SS, squats over 400 lb on SS

justin: started SS off as a fit crossfit conditioned guy, squats over 400 lb on SS

kittensmashguy: started SS as a fit conditioned guy, squats over 400 lb on SS

on the other hand where are the fat guys who started SS fat and squat over 400lb?

that guy dell witney who doesnt use a belt: squats like 500 lb, he is superbly conditioned, etc

i could go on, plenty of examples, im just learning from the best

[Mr.City]

Starting Strength will give you diabetes. Only the lean and beautiful people can do SS proper, the rest become so morbidly obese that they're wheeled out of the WFAC in wheelbarrows (it's the Sunday metcon at WFAC actually, better than a Prowler) due to the fact their gut growth has outpaced their squat strength, rendering them immobile. Rip and the 70s Big crew dump these beached whales in front of the nearest hospital/clinic/ditch. The doctor comes out sand see a sea of quivering flesh with the occasional head or limb sticking out, falls to his knees, raises his fist and screams, "Rippetoe!"

What is so hard about cleaning up your diet while on SS? I mean, at some point, you have some eating to grow. What happens then, Msingh?

[msingh]

What is so hard about cleaning up your diet while on SS?
Nothing! I'm doing that now, just with the goal of shedding unnecessary bodyweight.


I mean, at some point, you have some eating to grow. What happens then, Msingh?
I hope someone who eats to grow will grow. That's the idea. A fat guy hesitates to eat a lot of food in case he gets even more fat, but a lean guy can eat as much as he likes, and as we all know, when you lift heavy and eat big, you grow.

[Mr.City]

A lean guy gets to eat as much as he wants? How does the lean guy not get fat, but the fat guy get fatter?

[msingh]

A lean guy gets to eat as much as he wants? How does the lean guy not get fat, but the fat guy get fatter?

Lean guy will get fatter too, but he can afford to carry the new fat because his existing fat levels are not excessive. He will also gain muscle which helps him become bigger and stronger...

Fat guy gets excessively fat. Some people claim the fat guy gains muscle too under the so-called recomp effect. I read on lyle's site that fat guys get fatter much easier too, but I dont pretend to understand his explanation for this phenomenon.

[PVC]

on the other hand where are the fat guys who started SS fat and squat over 400lb?


Chris - you know, that guy Justin and AC train with that you conveniently forgot to mention? The one who started off as a fat guy at 245 lbs, who is now a fucking tank and is on schedule to deadlift 700 lbs in a few months?

Mispelledgeoff

Mileydyson

RobertFontaine

Anyone else who started out as a fat guy, can now squat 400 and wants to contribute


Just to name a few.

[EJLouis]

The doctor comes out and sees a sea of quivering flesh with the occasional head or limb sticking out, falls to his knees, raises his fist and screams, "Rippetoe!"

Hilarious!

Thanks.

[strengthstarter]

i've got detailed records of all my lifts, i just dont think it's relevant to discuss them here. everything i've read and heard says recomp is not possible. lean mass gains are not possible without using chemistry, so what's with telling people to try to do something impossible?? if i'm eating above maintenance then i have a surplus, in what world will that allow me to use fat for fuel when i have an excess of energy?? and who here has maintained linear progression on a deficit??

I'd consider getting Lyle's RFL Handbook. It lays out pretty much what you would have to eat to lose weight and maintain as much strength as possible in the process. Yes, you will have to eat at a caloric deficit. Yes, it is going to take some time. I'm currently in the process of integrating Lyle's recommendations into a Paleo diet, which hopefully are pretty compatible. Anyways, for me, going through his recommendations, this is the breakdown I get:

Summary Calories grams % calories
Total 2370.0
Protein 707.2 176.8 29.84%
Carb 1107.2 276.8 46.72%
Fat 555.6 61.7 23.44%

That's like 1.5 pounds of chicken per day (fuck) so you might want to consider that when you look at whatever diet you are doing now and ask yourself if you're getting enough protein.

[msingh]

Chris - you know, that guy Justin and AC train with that you conveniently forgot to mention? The one who started off as a fat guy at 245 lbs, who is now a fucking tank and is on schedule to deadlift 700 lbs in a few months?

Mispelledgeoff

Mileydyson

RobertFontaine

Anyone else who started out as a fat guy, can now squat 400 and wants to contribute


Just to name a few.

RobertFontaine dieted down while doing SS then ate more
mispelledeoff is currently dieting down as speak
dont know about miles dawson or chris but ..

im not saying it's impossible for fat guys to get brutally strong, they just have to say fuck it, i dont care if i become really obese, and go on eating and lifting. it's possible i know, but its a choice few willingly make, just compare pisarenko and rezazadeh

[PVC]

im not saying it's impossible for fat guys to get brutally strong, they just have to say fuck it, i dont care if i become really obese, and go on eating and lifting. it's possible i know, but its a choice few willingly make, just compare pisarenko and rezazadeh

Are you serious?

Man...we're talking about Starting Strength. We're talking about novices who are unadapted to heavy weight training, who have the ability to make huge increases in strength and muscle mass in short periods of time. Rezazadeh is the elite of the elite, both in terms of strength and in his body's adaptive response to training. His decision to get really fucking fat in order to be the best O-Lifter in the world is so far removed from what we're talking about, it's not even comparing apples and oranges since at least both of those are fruits.

[misspelledgeoff]

that was some funny shit, city!


Starting Strength will give you diabetes. Only the lean and beautiful people can do SS proper, the rest become so morbidly obese that they're wheeled out of the WFAC in wheelbarrows (it's the Sunday metcon at WFAC actually, better than a Prowler) due to the fact their gut growth has outpaced their squat strength, rendering them immobile. Rip and the 70s Big crew dump these beached whales in front of the nearest hospital/clinic/ditch. The doctor comes out sand see a sea of quivering flesh with the occasional head or limb sticking out, falls to his knees, raises his fist and screams, "Rippetoe!"

What is so hard about cleaning up your diet while on SS? I mean, at some point, you have some eating to grow. What happens then, Msingh?

[misspelledgeoff]

You don't get to have an opinion on what strong is--for painfully obvious reasons.


Very strong to me means squatting more than 400lb. Plenty of mediocre fat guys here who will never get that far, I'm not one of those. Learn from the best guys, dont settle for 50 inch waists and 320 lb squats.

[stronger]

im not saying it's impossible for fat guys to get brutally strong, they just have to say fuck it, i dont care if i become really obese, and go on eating and lifting. it's possible i know, but its a choice few willingly make, just compare pisarenko and rezazadeh

the problem is you make the same post every single time. You're trying to convince yourself that it isn't your fault you aren't pleased with the results, but that it's inevitable.

Just do the work it takes. Feeling sorry for yourself and trying to get others to do the same does no one any good

[msingh]

Yeah i made a decision and i'm working towards my goals. I have a plan for achieving my genetic potential. I know it will be hard work but it's ok, that's a part of the experience.

[coreJack]

I think enough kittens have been strangled as a result of this thread. Let's give msingh a month or two on his new plan and let's see how he fares. No doubt, he will be back with another thread (maybe he'll infuriate us to the point of snapping puppy necks in that one).

[tennisgod]

For some reason, reading this thread makes me want to...

http://www.samurai-weapons.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/seppuku2.jpg

[stronger]

Yeah i made a decision and i'm working towards my goals. I have a plan for achieving my genetic potential. I know it will be hard work but it's ok, that's a part of the experience.

Good luck. If it were easy, it wouldn't be worth doing

[nisora33]

For some reason, reading this thread makes me want to...



http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/dpc%20holy%20crap%20thats%20him.jpg

[Mr.City]

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14842

[nisora33]

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14842

Too late. Brute's gone now. It wouldn't have made any difference anyway. Bro.

-S.

[misspelledgeoff]

I think you've found your niche with this dieting thing. You don't have to DO anything, really. You just have to NOT DO. Like NOT EAT. Also it doesn't matter much if you are NOT SQUATTING.

In 6 months you'll be lean and fit like LondonTiger. I predict great success.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5387/1000165z.jpg


Yeah i made a decision and i'm working towards my goals. I have a plan for achieving my genetic potential. I know it will be hard work but it's ok, that's a part of the experience.

[Mr.City]

The woman in the blue dress is not amused by his 90s smallness.

[Chewie_jrc]

The woman in the blue dress is not amused by his 90s smallness.

...and I am not amused by her mustache.

[WatsupHannity]

If being overly fat is a mental block to progress (which I think it can be for many people, including myself) then why not do something like RFL and then go on SS and bulk once your bodyfat has come way down?

[Mr.City]

Hannity brings up a good point. I believe that's what Msingh is doing, however the bulk and cut cycle can be a way of instilling bad habits in a person. A period of meager eating to lose weigh and then a period of gorging to lose weight can become a weird habit (look at the bb.com guys, or rather, don't).

I've been on RFL for about 9 days and I went from 240 to around 226-228, and that measurement was from around day 7. I think the point of the diet, along with weight loss, is instilling good eating habits and be mindful of what you eat. I know I am now.

[WatsupHannity]

To clarify, by bulk I mean eat over maintenance for strength gains.