Greg C's Squat/DL

[Greg C]

Here's my film from my "almost a taco" on Tuesday and DL vid from 1/11. I own and have read a few time SS and PPST to answer the question.

My lower back felt extremely weak for some reason yesterday, and I was coming off of a recent bout of the creeping crud, so maybe that explains the weakness. Looking for some general comments about form from the more experienced lifters. Thanks.

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyV9Y4OXaXk

DL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TORve3V9LWY

[nisora33]

Back squat: work-set reps aren't deep enough by at least a couple of inches. Also, in the one warm-up vid you posted taken from behind, the feet appear to wide; narrowing your stance just a shade might help you get that extra depth. Will also help with any knees-out problems you're having.

[nisora33]

Deadlift: you're shooting your hips, which shifts your shoulder too far forward out in front of the bar; you're getting no leg drive and executing something more akin to a SLDL as a result.

[Greg C]

Back squat: work-set reps aren't deep enough by at least a couple of inches. Also, in the one warm-up vid you posted taken from behind, the feet appear to wide; narrowing your stance just a shade might help you get that extra depth. Will also help with any knees-out problems you're having.

Thanks, depth has been a major issue. I keep thinking push knees out, but it hasn't really been improving much. I'll try to narrow my stance a bit tomorrow.

Would you deload 10-15% and fix the depth then work back up? Seems to be what Rip recommended in a previous thread I saw.

[Greg C]

Deadlift: you're shooting your hips, which shifts your shoulder too far forward out in front of the bar; you're getting no leg drive and executing something more akin to a SLDL as a result.

Ok, I'm really uneducated here I guess. Could you explain a little further? Thanks.

[nisora33]

Ok, I'm really uneducated here I guess. Could you explain a little further? Thanks.

Shooting the hips means that your knees are unbending too early, which means that your hips are rising without the bar really moving up; this in turn, make you back more horizontal/puts the shoulders too far forward out in front of the bar and leaves the hams/glutes/back to do the work of getting the bar from point A to B all on their own. Hence, your turning the deadlift into a stiff legged deadlift at that point.

[nisora33]

Thanks, depth has been a major issue. I keep thinking push knees out, but it hasn't really been improving much. I'll try to narrow my stance a bit tomorrow.

Would you deload 10-15% and fix the depth then work back up? Seems to be what Rip recommended in a previous thread I saw.

I don't know about deloading 10-15%, but it's your call. Deload however much you need to in order to get the form correct for all reps. This might mean lowering as much as 10-15% or not, don't know.

[blowdpanis]

Here's my film from my "almost a taco" on Tuesday and DL vid from 1/11. I own and have read a few time SS and PPST to answer the question.

My lower back felt extremely weak for some reason yesterday, and I was coming off of a recent bout of the creeping crud, so maybe that explains the weakness. Looking for some general comments about form from the more experienced lifters. Thanks.

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyV9Y4OXaXk

DL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TORve3V9LWY

Watch the position of the bar in your deadlift setup when you drop your hips a bit as you set your back. Notice how it rolls forward? Why do you think it's doing this?

Answer: if the hips are too low, the shins will push the bar forward of midfoot, causing the bar path in the movement to deviate towards you, instead of being (more or less) straight up and down.

To not "shoot the hips," you're going to need to A) get the hips in a proper position to maintain the bar over midfoot at start (don't let it roll forward on your setup, or between reps), which will be a slightly higher hip position for you and B) lock your back into extension (chest up as hard as you can), such that your hamstrings are "tight" before the bar leaves the floor each rep. To quote Rip, if the starting position isn't hard to get into, you're not doing it right. The hamstring tension is what will anchor your back position and prevent the hips from shooting.

[Greg C]

Thanks guys. That helps.

[TomC]

The depth issues in your squat noted by Stacey probably need to be addressed before anything else. Once that is taken care of you will also need to think about your knees. They are coming forward at the bottom of the squat and pitching you onto your toes. This was most pronounced when you almost lost the weight forward on your last rep. Those knees need to stay planted at the bottom of the squat. This will enable you to keep your posterior chain under tension, rebound out of the bottom, keep you balanced, and lead to enlightenment.

[TomC]

Also, since you are struggling with depth, check out Rip's article on the Active Hip:

http://startingstrength.com/articles/active_hip_2_rippetoe.pdf

[Greg C]

Wow, all this and enlightenment too. Schweeeeetttt!!

Thanks. I decided to do a major de-load for depth today (I figure I'll come back up pretty quick under linear progression initially). I will post updated vid later.

Gonna look for something to use as a "TUBW" between work sets....

[Greg C]

Also, since you are struggling with depth, check out Rip's article on the Active Hip:

http://startingstrength.com/articles/active_hip_2_rippetoe.pdf

I actually had read this - it caused my to move my feet and little further out and open my toes a bit - less impingement. I think the feet went too far, but am keeping the increased toe angle

[Greg C]

OK,

based on comments, I went completely back to the book and started from scratch. Got up to 125# (vid below) and saw what I thought was depth issues, so dropped back to 115# (Good lord) and looked better. I'm a wee bit frustrated here, but want to get this right very badly. Also, I taped a set of BP since I was at it.

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPJ9d0zoCNI

BP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD3gJ_A2A48

[nisora33]

OK,

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPJ9d0zoCNI


Your second attempt at 115 lbs. had you right at parallel, but not below like you'd want it. Still, that's an improvement.

I want you to try something and tell us what happens. Instead of reaching back with your hips in such an exaggerated manner (Tom, blowd, you see that?), try just sitting straight down between your thighs as you open them out. Focus on keeping the weight of your body and the bar more or less evenly distributed across the bottom of your foot as you do this. I'd place money on this fixing a couple things.

On a further note, take a hyooge fish-gulp of air before each repetition and brace the abs hard as fuck.

-S.

[nisora33]

BP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD3gJ_A2A48

Grip is too wide by a half inch to an inch on both sides. That's all I can see from this angle.

-S.

[blowdpanis]

Your second attempt at 115 lbs. had you right at parallel, but not below like you'd want it. Still, that's an improvement.

I want you to try something and tell us what happens. Instead of reaching back with your hips in such an exaggerated manner (Tom, blowd, you see that?), try just sitting straight down between your thighs as you open them out. Focus on keeping the weight of your body and the bar more or less evenly distributed across the bottom of your foot as you do this. I'd place money on this fixing a couple things.

On a further note, take a hyooge fish-gulp of air before each repetition and brace the abs hard as fuck.

-S.

Agreed fully. "Sit back" is a wildly overrated cue for a ~shoulder width stance squat of any variant, imho.

To help on the knees out thing, one trick I recently "discovered" is basically to use Rippetoe's squat stretch with the elbows shoving out the knees, then taking the elbows away and "feeling" what that feels like, the stretch in your adductors and that kind of "between the legs" feeling. You are attempting to feel that same sensation at the bottom of every rep.

[Greg C]

Your second attempt at 115 lbs. had you right at parallel, but not below like you'd want it. Still, that's an improvement.

I want you to try something and tell us what happens. Instead of reaching back with your hips in such an exaggerated manner (Tom, blowd, you see that?), try just sitting straight down between your thighs as you open them out. Focus on keeping the weight of your body and the bar more or less evenly distributed across the bottom of your foot as you do this. I'd place money on this fixing a couple things.

On a further note, take a hyooge fish-gulp of air before each repetition and brace the abs hard as fuck.

-S.

All righty then. Thanks Stace. I'm pretty sure the reach back is an artifact from trying to fix my knees with box squat ala Dave Tate. Next squat day is Sunday. Will give this a go. Belt coming tomorrow, which should help too I think (something to work against for my weak middle).


Grip is too wide by a half inch to an inch on both sides. That's all I can see from this angle.

-S.

Think I see what you mean, since the goal is forearms vertical at the bottom. I will shoot the next time at an angle.

[Force Production]

BP: Your left wrist bends backwards more than your right. Center the bar before you unrack it. Overall it looks pretty good, but fix these things and it will look better.

[Jason B]

try just sitting straight down between your thighs as you open them out. Focus on keeping the weight of your body and the bar more or less evenly distributed across the bottom of your foot as you do this. I'd place money on this fixing a couple things.


Agreed. This should also help keep your back from folding over so much at the bottom to keep the bar over mid-foot, since your butt won't be so far back. Remember to arch that back hard.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

That last video hurts my back just watching it. It looks like you are trying to force the depth. You reach down with your neck, and your lower back rounds.

Do you have really tight hamstrings? It looks like as you just reach the depth where your hamstrings stretch you relax your back. So you lose the stretch reflex at the bottom of the squat.

[Greg C]

That last video hurts my back just watching it. It looks like you are trying to force the depth. You reach down with your neck, and your lower back rounds.

Do you have really tight hamstrings? It looks like as you just reach the depth where your hamstrings stretch you relax your back. So you lose the stretch reflex at the bottom of the squat.

I'm assuming you are looking at the initial squat vid where I almost lost the weight forward....

Yes I have really crappy flexibility - getting older sucks sometimes (almost 40). I keep hoping it will improve as I squat, but am adding in daily stretching to get better now.

As a note, this is probbly the very worst squat day I've had and filmed in the last 6 months, and started with me feeling week and sore from being sick. Shrug.

[Greg C]

OK, here's today's efforts.

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Um-uLluDmY
DL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D0nFRe9_Gw

You'll note I belted up (it arrived Friday) for today's efforts. I found this to be extremely helpful for the BS at least from a confidence standpoint. It took a while to loosen up, and I didn't include that in the vid, but felt very confident proceeding back up to 185# for work sets.

I feel depth is much improved here as most reps look to be below parallel (not all, but it's a work in progress). Knees are still sliding some, but are generally not moving much past where I had placed the mat in warm-up to act as my TUBW.

My DL is a huge other story. I felt like my warm-up sets were ok except for the damn looking up from trying to lift my chest (gotta work on that), but after the 2nd work rep, my hips started shooting again. Argh.

I'm not sure how to proceed with DL, as I'm unsure if the right answer is stay at 275# until I can execute all 5 reps with acceptable form, or to keep adding weight and working form on maybe some back off sets as well as the warm-ups to keep pushing a linear progression? If I did the latter, I think I would only stop the weight additions if things got "ugly" - a very subjective description, since by a lot of standards, I'm sure I am already there. Opinions? I'm actually tempted to ask Rip about this one, since as a Master's age guy (I'm almost 40), I'm leary of doing any serious damage to myself on this lift.

[nisora33]

Squats look MUCH better. Good job, bub.

-S.

[nisora33]

Deadlift is as you say.

I don't think adding weight is going to do anything but make things worse, at this point.

To address the shooting of the hips, try driving your hips forward like in a pelvic thrust at the same time that you push the floor away from you with your feet.

I think that if you solve the hip's shooting, this will help your back not get as fatigued as quick, because you'll be able to keep your back angle steeper like it should be. Know what I mean?

-S.

[Greg C]

Yeah, I think I am with you. One of the cues my coach here suggested to keep my hips down also was to sit back into the lift as well.

The first two reps look ok to me (not perfect, but acceptable) based on my assumption that my physiology is like Dwayne in SSBBT (short torso, long legs and arms) and so I can't really get a more curved back (at least until I get my hamstrings a hell of a lot more flexible that is).

I'll stay at 275 until I can get all 5 reps looking like the first 2 here. (Hopefully, my squat won't get too close to my DL in the meantime!!!)

Thanks Stacey. I appreciate your time.

Greg

[Greg C]

Comments?

BS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dkgq6zQe8M

I'm especially interested in thoughts on the twisting in rep 4 of set#1. I know depth is not the best. Thanks.

DL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IhoEAchA3U

[Greg C]

"Bueller, Bueller....?"