Form check on squats, please.

[pantsaregood]

After failing my 5x5 205 lbs due to being unable to keep my knees out, I decided to check my form with 135 lbs. Be as harsh as you feel necessary.

135x10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhNP2-_ur04

[nisora33]

This set isn't all that bad, actually gets better later in the set. But right now, you're not getting all that much "hip drive," so in your case--until the time when/if you start to good-morning the shit of them--your squats could actually benefit from having the chin down/gaze fixed lower.

Having said that, it's obvious that this is a light weight for you to be using, and as such, this set is not indicative of the form problems you're likely experiencing at heavier loads. I'm not sure that it's all that useful to critique this set, therefore. It does show us that, at least, your concept of a proper squat isn't bad.

Need to see a heavier set, for sure.

-Stacey

[Paul Sousa]

I think they look pretty good. I think you need to put on some more bodyweight. I know in your past thread you said you are getting about 4kcals/day. I think it's time to increase that and work towards 200lb BW.

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bG7nBHiXKs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQzych_3iTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEbF7DzHjY

Here you can see the problem I mentioned with not being able to keep my knees out.

As for increasing my weight, I'm working on it. I'm at 180 now.

[Paul Sousa]

Not sure if this will help, but try thinking about pushing with the outer edge of your feet (and heels of course).

[nisora33]

Yeah, that's bad. Have you tried narrowing your stance an inch on each side?

Paul, do you think he's a touch wide in that third video?

-S.

[pantsaregood]

Was thinking of doing that. Today's workout was terrible because I didn't get the chance to eat before going. I tried it, but couldn't really tell anything because I was so exhausted.

[Paul Sousa]

Yeah, that's bad. Have you tried narrowing your stance an inch on each side?

Paul, do you think he's a touch wide in that third video?

-S.

Good catch, he might be a couple inches too wide. He looks uncomfortable with it as he does some foot shuffling between reps. I also cringe at seeing him in what looks like socks on what looks like a hard floor.

[pantsaregood]

It's not a hard floor. It isn't remotely slippery. I usually don't squat in socks, but I accidentally left my house in the crappy shoes you see in the first video from the sets of 200. The soles in them are heavily padded, and were having a pretty heavy impact on my ability to squat. My left knee actually almost caved in during my second set because the right side of the sole compressed more than the left.

I usually squat in Chuck Taylors.

[pantsaregood]

Some newer videos. Dumped a bunch of weight and started actively focusing on pushing my knees out. Very actively. Tried a more narrow stance, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzYn6XL136E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7cFLtydprs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBXi5V01AUo

[nisora33]

Stance is perfect from what I can see here. How did it feel?

Also, you look almost timid even in these videos about getting your knees out, like you're afraid you're going to split your scrote sack or something. At the bottom particularly, get you knees WAAAaayy the fuck out. It will feel too wide to you, but I guarantee that when you look back at subsequent videos, your knees will look perfectly positioned.

-S.

[pantsaregood]

It feels like I'm pushing them way out. I actually dropped from 205 to 175 to 155 today because I couldn't keep them out at 175.

[nisora33]

It feels like I'm pushing them way out.

You're not.

[pantsaregood]

I know. The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't feel like I can push them out further. I'm struggling to keep them where they are.

[nisora33]

I know. The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't feel like I can push them out further. I'm struggling to keep them where they are.

Then it might be time to introduce some remedial stretching exercises, particularly for the adductors. You might consider something as simple as the squat stretch pictured in SS, the one Rip uses to teach beginners the proper depth and knee positioning. Do that every day as if your life depends on it, morning and night, and see what happens.

And spend a few more sessions, maybe, at 155, shoving the knees out more than you think you need to.

-S.

[Gottatri2lift]

I don't know if this would work for you but I have gone so far as dropping into the hole with the bar on the back and a really light weight. Then hold at the bottom and have someone take a pic. Then compare your pic to the pic in SS.

This also serves as a really good stress if you are tight b/c of the weighted bar.

[pantsaregood]

I don't know if this would work for you but I have gone so far as dropping into the hole with the bar on the back and a really light weight. Then hold at the bottom and have someone take a pic. Then compare your pic to the pic in SS.

This also serves as a really good stress if you are tight b/c of the weighted bar.

I like this idea a lot. Direct comparison seems like the easiest way to handle things.

One thing I'm curious about: does anyone have any complaints as far as keeping my back tight?

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC98bUhq6zQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4rRTe5xHPg

Pushing my knees way the fuck out. Or at least it feels like it.

[nisora33]

Only watched the 2nd video, but in that one, knees looked MUCH, MUCH better.

-S.

[blowdpanis]

As a tip on the knees out thing, I don't think it's just a matter of strength - it doesn't really take "strength" to shove the knees out like it does the hip or knee extensors to actually stand you up (due to how gravity aligns with the movement). I think, sort of like the spinal extension thing, it's proprioceptive confusion as to what knees out "feels" like.

Starting Strength does a pretty good job of describing this, and starting unweighted, literally watch your own knees, and "break" the knees out when you start to descend in a way where your knees are tracking in line with your femur/shins/feet. This will/should feel like your knees are going "out and forward" as you start your descent. When you do this properly, you will feel a strong stretch in the adductors, but it won't feel like you're on the edge of your feet or that you're arbitrarily "pushing out" with your knees. You are attempting to duplicate this "feeling" when you descend each time.

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tof0cJE-mTM

Still working on "knees out."

Thoughts?

[JayvH]

1st rep looks good I think, then you begin to buckle in a little bit at the bottom and shove them back out. This happens more on the left than on the right side. My sets look the same sometimes:(

[drlvegas]

They look a couple inches high. Maybe pointing the toes out a bit more will get the knees out more out of the way. Otherwise they look good.

[Dastardly]

You seem to be coming down rather fast, are you sure you are keeping everything "Tight" ?

You are also squatting fast, which suggests the weight is still pretty light for you. Which make sit surprising that your knees would buckle at all. With a weight that light (compared to maximum ability) you should be able to squat down and up with very rigid form.

Id think seeing it from the front/side corner would be the best angle to check if you are maintaining tension and shoving knees out properly.

[pantsaregood]

I can move the weight easily. Keeping my knees out, however, takes a lot of thought.

As for depth, I'm limiting my depth because my flexibility doesn't really allow extremely deep squats at the moment. If I squat as deep as I possibly can, my lower back rounds.

My concern now is only with my knees, as my inability to keep them out in the past was apparently extremely dangerous for them.

[Force Production]

I think it looks good. Anyone else agree?

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tof0cJE-mTM

Still working on "knees out."

Thoughts?

For what is my limited experience, I think you are almost there. The knees seem wide enough when you reach the bottom. Then they cave in a bit, as you start coming up again, at which point you seem to remember to push them out, and they widen again.
So the overall knee movement seems to be: wide, wide, wide (bottom), narrowing, (man, get those knees out!) wide again.
I think it becomes more obvious if you look at what your lower leg does.

Just focus on keeping them out throughout the movement, and you should be sorted.

IPB

[hatmanii]

Just focus on keeping them out throughout the movement, and you should be sorted.


This^

When I finally figured out I had to push my knees out during the entire movement is when my form got sorted for the better.

[Colliflower]

I read the whole thread and I would still like to say that when thinking about the knees, think about getting them down and out at the top 1/3 of the descent and not letting them move at all until you're 2/3 the way back up.

Your knees look much, much better than before. My roomate had the same problem with his knees and he's now squatting well. There is hope!

Also, put your back in full extension when getting the bar out of the rack. Contract your lumbar until it feels like its starting to cramp then squat and hold it tight. Work on contracting and holding your lumbar tight before during and after workouts as its a completely new concept to many people.

Your squats have improved, keep it up.

[pantsaregood]

Do my squats at least look acceptable now?

Some form police have criticized my videos from 2/10/10 as being "asymmetrical, but I think they're just being ridiculous.

[Robert Callahan]

Do my squats at least look acceptable now?

Some form police have criticized my videos from 2/10/10 as being "asymmetrical, but I think they're just being ridiculous.

Yes they are more than acceptable. Don't let internet coaching take away from your lifting.

You could try narrowing your stance just a touch and getting your toes out a bit more. This may help keep your knees out a bit.

Also why are you doing 5 sets?

[pantsaregood]

I'm doing Stronglifts, which is another abbreviated training program. I have Starting Strength, and the book is great. Stronglifts, if you're unaware, is another abbreviated linear progression program. Aside from volume, very little is different from Starting Strength.

That said, doing two extra sets is most likely of minimal benefit at this point, other than possibly helping a bit with endurance.

Thanks, though. Form police had me under the impression my form was bad. I know that it was bad when my knees were severely buckling on 200 lbs, but I thought "you've got major asymmetry going" was an exaggeration.

One thing that concerns me: is it normal for me to feel my lower back being fatigued after squats? The weight doesn't really seem to matter much. After 3 sets or so, my back starts getting a little sore.

[Robert Callahan]

I'm doing Stronglifts, which is another abbreviated training program. I have Starting Strength, and the book is great. Stronglifts, if you're unaware, is another abbreviated linear progression program. Aside from volume, very little is different from Starting Strength.

That said, doing two extra sets is most likely of minimal benefit at this point, other than possibly helping a bit with endurance.

Thanks, though. Form police had me under the impression my form was bad. I know that it was bad when my knees were severely buckling on 200 lbs, but I thought "you've got major asymmetry going" was an exaggeration.

One thing that concerns me: is it normal for me to feel my lower back being fatigued after squats? The weight doesn't really seem to matter much. After 3 sets or so, my back starts getting a little sore.

K, so I went through and actually reviewed most the videos you have posted. They look fine. You had a little too wide of a stance at first and narrowed it up and look much better. I think you could do to get your toes angled out a little bit more, but whatever works. There is no reason why you should not be building back up to heavy weight.

As to your lower back, low bar back squats are a lower back exercise among other things. If your lower back is the weak link in the chain it will be getting worked heavy and will fatigue. Just be aware of it, maybe add in some accessory stuff like back extensions or good mornings to help it along.

And after looking through these videos I really think investing in some lifting shoes would help you out immensely. I can see a lot of instability at the ankle in these videos and that is leading to difficulty with the knee stability, good lifting shoes will fix this!

[nisora33]

K, so I went through and actually reviewed most the videos you have posted. They look fine. along.


Just so I'm clear: you think his squats were fine all along? Or no? Like here:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEbF7DzHjY

-S.

[astanto2]

Just so I'm clear: you think his squats were fine all along? Or no? Like here:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEbF7DzHjY

-S.

that link didn't work for me, fyi.

[nisora33]

that link didn't work for me, fyi.

Try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEbF7DzHjY

[nisora33]

And then here is a screencap taken from 2.10.10:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/4341756586_8bbdc21d3f_o.jpg

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=100683&postcount=18

Since this is a light weight for him, as Pants himself admitted, not a max set (where you might expect some trouble with knees out) and since his goal at that point was specifically to perfect his form, then these squats better be damned near perfect, yes? Yet look where the outer edge of his knee is relative to his toes. See a problem?

-S.

[astanto2]

that link worked. seems to me that stance is too wide in that vid, which makes it harder to keep the knees out, at least in my opinion. in that older link, the stance was well outside shoulder width. the newer vid from the OP seems to be a significant improvement.

[nisora33]

the newer vid from the OP seems to be a significant improvement.

I agree. And I agree with Robert's advice to get shoes for the ankle instability. But his assertion that Pants squats were okay before was simultaneously careless and then passive aggressively insulting to the rest of us who've posted. So Robert, just fuckin' call us out by our names next time you don't agree with us, just say that we're wrong, and that way, you won't look so douchey when it turns out that you're actually the wrong one.

-S.

[BruteForce]

Dramatic improvement for sure, but that vid from the 3rd holy shit. I'm glad you improved on those pants. Don't add a pound on that bar til that form is burned into your muscle memory.

[pantsaregood]

And then here is a screencap taken from 2.10.10:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/4341756586_8bbdc21d3f_o.jpg

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=100683&postcount=18

Since this is a light weight for him, as Pants himself admitted, not a max set (where you might expect some trouble with knees out) and since his goal at that point was specifically to perfect his form, then these squats better be damned near perfect, yes? Yet look where the outer edge of his knee is relative to his toes. See a problem?

-S.

My knees definitely buckled here, but to my credit, there's a SIGNIFICANT improvement from the 200 lb squats. My goal isn't to instantly have perfect form, it's to improve. If my knee stability is showing improvement, then I'm accomplishing what I set out to. There's still some minor buckling, but I believe it is far less significant than before.

That said, I appreciate all of the form critique and welcome more. I'm not implying that you're wrong to criticize that. I'm just kind of reassuring myself that "yes, my squats are improving." Squats bother me because my Press is at 5x5 120 lbs, and my Bench is at 5x5 165 lbs. It seems like my Squats are, proportionally, very low.

[Robert Callahan]

I agree. And I agree with Robert's advice to get shoes for the ankle instability. But his assertion that Pants squats were okay before was simultaneously careless and then passive aggressively insulting to the rest of us who've posted. So Robert, just fuckin' call us out by our names next time you don't agree with us, just say that we're wrong, and that way, you won't look so douchey when it turns out that you're actually the wrong one.

-S.

Nisora, Stacy I think?, take a deep breath. Go change your tampon if you need to. Not everyone is as passive aggressive as you, and you are not so amazing that everything somehow involves you. I didn't even fucking read what people posted. I skimmed a few, saw that I generally agreed with what was being said and skipped to the end. I added my 2 cents only concerned with helping the OP out. The fact that you think my advice is somehow a slight at you boggles my fucking mind.

Now, were the OPs knees collapsing at 200lbs. Yes. Pretty bad? mmm, yeah. Is his chest caving a little? Yup. Is his stance too wide? just a touch. Are his ankles unstable and contributing to the knees? A bit. Does the OP need a bit of a reset? Definitely. Does he need to spend 2 weeks at 135lbs fixing form? Fuck No! Drop to ~175, maybe a little less to fix form and build back up.

A persons Squat does not need to be fucking perfect text book form in order to build up a bit. If all you ever do is drill light weight then you never develop strength and your form will always suck as it gets heavy.

Of all the places to have fucking form nazis I would think Rip's forum would be the last place... but I guess where there is internetz coaching...

and as a side note the angle from the screen shot makes the knees in look worse than it is. He could still stand to jam them out a bit more, but I think his femurs are not far off line with his feet. What he needs to do is get his toes out a bit more so that he can get his knees spread out further.

[nisora33]

I didn't even fucking read what people posted. I skimmed a few, saw that I generally agreed with what was being said and skipped to the end.


And so I apologize. I had you pegged wrong.

-S.

[Dastardly]

I'm doing Stronglifts, which is another abbreviated training program. I have Starting Strength, and the book is great. Stronglifts, if you're unaware, is another abbreviated linear progression program. Aside from volume, very little is different from Starting Strength.



You will save yourself some time by not doing stronglifts.

You have the SS book, you have this great forum here, why do that bastardised programming?

It is made of borrowed parts of SS & Bill Starr's programmes, but all chopped up and taken out of context.

[Colliflower]

You will save yourself some time by not doing stronglifts.

You have the SS book, you have this great forum here, why do that bastardised programming?

It is made of borrowed parts of SS & Bill Starr's programmes, but all chopped up and taken out of context.

Agree. You may say the differences between SS and Stronglifts are very minimal and will help with endurance or what have you but there is a reason Mark didn't program SS like Stronglifts. He found his non-ramping sets of 5 across to work better for the novice. I'd much rather take Rip's advice over some guy who I already lift more than.

[pantsaregood]

More squats:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k85SEhzbuw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdmJ-4SPMEk

How about some deadlifts?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ojZYS1w_-c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cikack9gxr4

Had some random cramps today that kind of scared me. You can actually see me react and almost fall on the second rep (I think) of the first video. I was getting cramps under my right knee, the arch of my right foot, and my lower-left back. Is this a sign of injury or just random unfortunate cramping?

Also, Stronglifts also consists of non-ramping sets of 5.

I know in SS, Rippetoe is very blunt in saying "do not bounce off of the knees." Does it appear that I'm bouncing off of my knees at all?

[Colliflower]

...

I know in SS, Rippetoe is very blunt in saying "do not bounce off of the knees." Does it appear that I'm bouncing off of my knees at all?

It is hard to tell from the evil things Youtube does to video quality but yes, it looks like to me that you are bouncing off your knees very badly.

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC98bUhq6zQ

I'm not bouncing in this video, am I?

I should've paid more attention today. I was being lazy.

[JayvH]

More squats:
[/URL][URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdmJ-4SPMEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k85SEhzbuw)

I think that looks good.

[Robert Callahan]

And so I apologize. I had you pegged wrong.

-S.

Thank you. I also apologize my response was so vehement.


I know in SS, Rippetoe is very blunt in saying "do not bounce off of the knees." Does it appear that I'm bouncing off of my knees at all?

What do you mean "bouncing off he knees"?? Your squats at 155lbs looked decent enough to me. Rep 3 or 4 you let yourself go lose on the way down a bit but I have seen worse. I think the minor problem you are having is that you are focusing everything on sitting back and not letting your knees establish position early enough in the decent. This is causing your knees to shift forward slightly at the bottom and maybe this is what you think is "bouncing off your knees"?

All you need to think about is "knees out" and "chest up" on the decent. On the accent the only thing you need to think about is "DRIVE UP!".

If you get too nitpicky with your squats you will never progress, and if you are that worried about them get a coach in person to watch you!

Your DL look great, your squats are decent. Now go buy some lifting shoes and get lifting!

[blowdpanis]

All you need to think about is "knees out" and "chest up" on the decent. On the accent the only thing you need to think about is "DRIVE UP!".

If you get too nitpicky with your squats you will never progress, and if you are that worried about them get a coach in person to watch you!

Your DL look great, your squats are decent. Now go buy some lifting shoes and get lifting!

One of the best posts I have seen on the board. The importance of this basic idea is hard to understate.

You obviously want to develop technical proficiency, but I think there is a strong trend in some to dramatically overthink how to properly squat, and I know I am guilty as hell of this. The whole "point" of the model of squat Rip gives, really, is that with a few simple cues, the system will sort of work itself out to get the job done most efficiently. So as long as the basics are in place (backed locked in extension, knees tracking properly, more or less properly balanced at the bottom), the rest represents the sort of day to day minutia not worth worrying about.

[BruteForce]

I definitely learned with my DL not to overthink form. I kept sweating the small stuff and then one day, I just got in proper position and lifted how it felt natural to me and it worked itself out.

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKyB9nzaZfU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1iOh_e1mw

Two more videos. Still putting weight back on.

Any comments?

[nisora33]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKyB9nzaZfU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1iOh_e1mw

Two more videos. Still putting weight back on.

Any comments?

NOW, cut shy the depth by about an inch and all will be well in your squatting life. You're dropping down nearly ass to heels, and having to sacrifice some tightness to get there. You're so close now...

-S.

[pantsaregood]

You serious? That sounded pretty damn positive. I'll work on the depth. Going so deep is actually just really natural.

[nisora33]

You serious? That sounded pretty damn positive. I'll work on the depth. Going so deep is actually just really natural.

Serious.

[Robert Callahan]

Still no lifting shoes.

Still doing 5x5.

Get your shoes, and get on the novice program from SS.

:)

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ly1PtzBSA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhNxUQclUTQ

Knees buckling a little in the last set. I shouldn't deload again, should I?

[cjangelo]

Hey Pantsaregood, you know what else is good? Shoes. Buy some shoes. Email this guy for VS Athletics. Order the same size as your athletic sneakers. They're $48 plus $10 shipping.

rbenoy1323@yahoo.com

I posted this in another thread, but I'm tryin' to help you out, yo!

[Dastardly]

Shoes really help, I thought I didnt need them either. When I got them I was much weaker with them too.

But after a couple weeks of practice I would never go back. Shoes fucking rock. My squat now resembles Rips, Justin's or Stacey's. A perfect SS model squat. It is also helping me recover from hamstring tendinitis.

[pantsaregood]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khx4BvgTc-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kOvOEWxjUI

I tried a wide stance on my fourth set. It felt a little easier to keep my knees out. The squats were incredibly hard, though.