Drinking less milk?

[strongdaniel]

Interested in people's thoughts on this issue.

In the last two months, at 5'8, I've gone from weighing 180 pounds to 204. Throughout, I've been drinking at least a gallon of milk per day. GOMAD is great. It's forced me to consume enough calories to grow, and eating lots of fat all day makes me feel great.

That said, I'm getting closer to a weight that I'm happy with, and I've noticed that I'm starting to add a little more body fat than I'm currently comfortable with. Since I'm not trying to grow as much, I think it might make sense to start drinking a little less milk (perhaps half a gallon/day).

Now, I realize that milk is a magical substance. For one, it is a delicious and easy way to get down plenty of protein. Additionally, it has plenty of saturated fat, which promotes a healthy hormonal balance and increased production of testosterone.

To make up for the reduction of milk in my diet, I'm contemplating getting more protein and fat from other sources.

I'm considering shooting for a minimum of the following substances per day:

-Half a gallon of milk. A gallon if I really need to fuel my training for the day.
-8-12 eggs. Lot's of salami and bacon.
-1 lb of ground meet, cooked with plenty of olive and canola oil.
-A few scoops of whey per day.
-Lot's of full fat cheese.
-Lot's of sour cream

What are your thoughts? Will I be getting enough fat and protein in my diet, or will I be missing out on some of the magical properties of milk if I go down to half a gallon of milk per day? Will the reduction of sugar in my diet help curb my fat gains somewhat? How will this effect my strength gains and recovery?

[hatmanii]

So you want to keep your calories and fat/protein intake the same. Why not just continue to drink the milk?

The milk itself isnt what is putting on the mass, but the calories/protein/fat/carbs. If you are looking to cut carbs, then cut them from somewhere else.

Milk is literally the best recovery food that I've found. I noticed a HUGE difference in my recovery both between sets and between training days when I started to limit my milk intake.

YMMV, but I would advise against you plan.

[strongdaniel]

So you want to keep your calories and fat/protein intake the same. Why not just continue to drink the milk?

The milk itself isnt what is putting on the mass, but the calories/protein/fat/carbs. If you are looking to cut carbs, then cut them from somewhere else.

Milk is literally the best recovery food that I've found. I noticed a HUGE difference in my recovery both between sets and between training days when I started to limit my milk intake.

YMMV, but I would advise against you plan.

The way you put it, makes my plan sound somewhat illogical.

That said, I don't intend to drink a gallon of milk a day for the rest of my life. At what point is it appropriate to start scaling back?

[Sami]

Yeah, I've had about the same sort of growth (175-202) on GOMAD. I'm now scaling it back to half-GOMAD and my weight has since been about the same for a few weeks, but the lifts are still going up at the moment, but things are feeling heavier. But who's to know if that's just because I'm nearing the end of linear progression or because I'm not having as much milk.

I know, when I think I need to progress to TM, I'll start back on GOMAD and see if my lifts go back up and if I gain any more weight.

[mcsquared]

I'm in the same boat. Standing at 6'1"-ish and starting at 190 about a month back, I drank GOMAD and got big, to the point where i'm hovering around the 207-210 range depending on the time of day. Due to the fact that the Air Force doesn't like chubby people at all(despite popular belief) I've cut back to 1/2 GOMAD and I'm still progressing on my lifts. Like Sami, things have felt heavier, but that might be because I'm nearing the end of my novice progression. My workset is currently at a 280 squat, and I really wanna hit 315 before I reset.

Anyway, good luck. Your diet looks good in my opinion.

[TomC]

I went from 172 to 223 at 6'2" with the help of milk and squats, but I am not currently drinking a gallon. I am somewhere around half a gallon a day. When I tried to drop milk out completely, my lifts went to hell in a hurry.

Now, I put on 50 pounds and will probably put on about 10 more. If you really want to lose fat, cutting the milk and making up for the calories with more fat and protein won't do all that much, at least not quickly. What you will probably find is that you won't be able to replace all the calories from your half gallon of milk with solid food which will provide a slight deficit and do what you want. Bottom line: you are probably on the right track, but may need to tweak things to get the results you want.

Lyle McDonald makes more sense than just about anyone else on these subjects and you would be wise to peruse his site and or get one of his books.

[Force Production]

What are your thoughts? Will I be getting enough fat and protein in my diet, or will I be missing out on some of the magical properties of milk if I go down to half a gallon of milk per day? Will the reduction of sugar in my diet help curb my fat gains somewhat? How will this effect my strength gains and recovery?

Yes, get rid of the sugar before the milk.

[gordonrumble]

Why not just use lower-calorie milk? Using 1% milk keeps the protein levels similar but significantly cuts calories.

[jameson]

The way you put it, makes my plan sound somewhat illogical.

That said, I don't intend to drink a gallon of milk a day for the rest of my life. At what point is it appropriate to start scaling back?

My opinion may change knowing your age and bf%, but...

Milk will inevitably always be one of your best friends for recovery. I'm assuming you're getting sugars from other sources - cut down on these. For what I know of your case, it's most likely appropriate to cut back when you find that cutting back on other sources of sugar simply isn't enough. I'd stick with some amount of whole milk and forgo the lesser fat options. It's carbs you should probably manipulate - not fat/protein.

[Dastardly]

Why not just use lower-calorie milk? Using 1% milk keeps the protein levels similar but significantly cuts calories.

I think he is tired of drinking that quantity of milk.

Daniel:

you seem to have a logical plan. With the ground meat, I would ditch the canola oil and just get fattier meat.

Sugar & carbs are what may cause disproportionate fat gains.

But at the same time they are the best things for recovery as they are easy to process and trigger insulin which delivers nutrients to cells (if I have understood it right!)

A diet largely of fat & protein may make you feel a bit tired and sluggish as they take more energy and more time to digest.

Milk really seems like the ultimate training food when you consider all of this stuff.

Lyle has lots of detailed information about using diet to manipulate body composition on his website. If you are seeking detailed information I would head there.

[nisora33]

Force Production: you do realize that milk is full of sugar, right?

Everyone else: these blanket recommendations to cut sugar before fat are irresponsible to the individual and to the broader context at hand. After protein requirements are met, the decision to eat more carbs or fat to make up the rest of the days calories should be based on the individual's genotype. This requires some experimentation on the part of the dieter.

You should be looking at the broader context, here, not handing out internet platitudes.

-Stacey

[Force Production]

Force Production: you do realize that milk is full of sugar, right?

-Stacey

No, I didn't know that. :D And I thought he was talking about other sugary products.

[Dastardly]

Force Production:

You should be looking at the broader context, here, not handing out internet platitudes.

-Stacey

This is not me right?

I said that sugar & carbs are useful and their benefits respected.

[jameson]

Everyone else: these blanket recommendations to cut sugar before fat are irresponsible to the individual and to the broader context at hand. After protein requirements are met, the decision to eat more carbs or fat to make up the rest of the days calories should be based on the individual's genotype. This requires some experimentation on the part of the dieter.

You should be looking at the broader context, here, not handing out internet platitudes.

-Stacey

Given that his goal has been to gain weight, as noted in his training log, it's most likely that he has been eating everything in sight. This was taken into context given that he'd even posted a few pictures of what he's been eating. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that if he's added "a little more body fat than [he's] currently comfortable with," cutting out simple sugars (which he's undoubtedly been eating), that contain unnecessary calories, would be an easy change that he could adhere to. I don't believe he's looking to "diet"...or, dare I say, cut (ugghhh).

But, yes, I have to admit that Stacey's right - which I hate to do.

[Patrick]

Force Production: you do realize that milk is full of sugar, right?

Everyone else: these blanket recommendations to cut sugar before fat are irresponsible to the individual and to the broader context at hand. After protein requirements are met, the decision to eat more carbs or fat to make up the rest of the days calories should be based on the individual's genotype. This requires some experimentation on the part of the dieter.

You should be looking at the broader context, here, not handing out internet platitudes.

-Stacey

Do you know the tests to determine whether someone ought to opt for carbs or fat to make up the excess calories? I've read that one widely employed test is basically a measure of how center-loaded someone's fat mass is... if you've got lots of belly fat then your insulin sensitivity is bad and fat is better than sugar in terms of calories. Is that a decent way to get at it, and are there better ones or ones that have to be used in conjunction?

And not to turn this into a scientific wankfest, but there's also an epigenetic element to food selection. Milk evidently causes an increase in IGF-1 synthesis, presumably this is why it's almost uniquely good for growing lifters. Other factors, like physical activity, also determine the expression level of IGF-1, and probably other foods as well. We've all got the gene for IGF-1 but if its expression really is kicked up by milk, I'd say milk is a great way to get calories and fuss about sugar and fat somewhere else in your food.

[nisora33]

Do you know the tests to determine whether someone ought to opt for carbs or fat to make up the excess calories? I've read that one widely employed test is basically a measure of how center-loaded someone's fat mass is... if you've got lots of belly fat then your insulin sensitivity is bad and fat is better than sugar in terms of calories. Is that a decent way to get at it, and are there better ones or ones that have to be used in conjunction?


Go to Lyle's site, bodyrecomposition.com, and read the article on insulin sensitivity and fat loss.

-S.

[strongdaniel]

No, I didn't know that. :D And I thought he was talking about other sugary products.

Sorry, I was talking about the milk sugar. I eat very little sugar outside of whole milk. Interesting, thought provoking answers in this thread. Gives me a lot to chew on.

Right now, I am leaning towards maintaining my current level of milk consumption. But I might experiment with a lower sugar diet for a period of time, and see how it affects my training.

[strongdaniel]

Given that his goal has been to gain weight, as noted in his training log, it's most likely that he has been eating everything in sight. This was taken into context given that he'd even posted a few pictures of what he's been eating. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that if he's added "a little more body fat than [he's] currently comfortable with," cutting out simple sugars (which he's undoubtedly been eating), that contain unnecessary calories, would be an easy change that he could adhere to. I don't believe he's looking to "diet"...or, dare I say, cut (ugghhh).

But, yes, I have to admit that Stacey's right - which I hate to do.

Thanks for the response. Since my first month of lifting, when I was eating everything in sight, I've been maintaining my level of calories, but getting them from healthier sources. I've been hitting an average of 4500 calories per day, primarily from meat, milk, onions, oils and eggs. Right now, Milk is by far the primary source of sugar in my diet, and I'd be interested in seeing what happens if I reduced some of that sugar.

Note: I still plan to drink a lot of milk. But at some point, I'd like to wean myself from a gallon.

[strongdaniel]

Why not just use lower-calorie milk? Using 1% milk keeps the protein levels similar but significantly cuts calories.

I'm not trying to cut calories necessarily right now. I am trying to maintain a similar level of calories, but with fewer carbs, especially on non-training days.

[jameson]

Thanks for the response. Since my first month of lifting, when I was eating everything in sight, I've been maintaining my level of calories, but getting them from healthier sources. I've been hitting an average of 4500 calories per day, primarily from meat, milk, onions, oils and eggs. Right now, Milk is by far the primary source of sugar in my diet, and I'd be interested in seeing what happens if I reduced some of that sugar.

Note: I still plan to drink a lot of milk. But at some point, I'd like to wean myself from a gallon.

You might follow Nisora's advice, too. Do you know for certain that you should cut sugars? I say this because you aren't getting much sugar outside of milk. If you keep your calories constant, then you do need to figure out which nutrient to manipulate (carbs/fat). Try eating a high-carb meal and test for yourself whether you feel pretty good or a little tired. If it's the latter, by all means, cut the sugar. If it's the former, then you should manipulate your fat intake.

[homerj742]

I've cut out sugars the last two days (limited my milk intake to 20oz) and increased my fat intake. I definitely feel tired.

This was basically experimenting to see how I would respond. I had love handles at 5''10 155, and I have slightly larger love handles at 204lbs lol. Obviously I don't need GOMAD anymore and need to tweak my diet.

The last two days were about 3000 cals, low carb, high protein and fat. All carbs came from vegetables, nuts and 20oz of milk. I noticed that I'm feeling signifigantly tired, so I'm going to double my milk intake (40oz) and continue to eat raw vegetables/fruits along with lots of meat. (I'm basically cutting out processed carbs ala bread, pasta, enriched rice, sugars etc...)

[nisora33]

I've cut out sugars the last two days (limited my milk intake to 20oz) and increased my fat intake. I definitely feel tired.

This was basically experimenting to see how I would respond. I had love handles at 5''10 155, and I have slightly larger love handles at 204lbs lol. Obviously I don't need GOMAD anymore and need to tweak my diet.

The last two days were about 3000 cals, low carb, high protein and fat. All carbs came from vegetables, nuts and 20oz of milk. I noticed that I'm feeling signifigantly tired, so I'm going to double my milk intake (40oz) and continue to eat raw vegetables/fruits along with lots of meat. (I'm basically cutting out processed carbs ala bread, pasta, enriched rice, sugars etc...)

So basically, you're just adding more sugar and calories.

-S.

[homerj742]

So basically, you're just adding more sugar and calories.

-S.

Yes, sugar and calories in the form of milk as opposed to cookies and brownies.

[nisora33]

Like I said, sugar and calories. Granted, those sugar calories come packaged with protein and fat calories too (8g protein, 8g fat, 12g carbs), which is better than consuming sugary treats all by themselves (Starbucks brownie is 5g protein, 22g fat, 52g of carbs) if what you're doing is trying to limit sugar and keep bringing in a certain amount of fat and protein. But what's up with you're calories? Are you trying to lose weight, stay the same or gain?

-s.

[homerj742]

Keeping the calories around 3000. I'm not looking to put on any more weight at the moment. I just want to eat enough to recover.

[nisora33]

Keeping the calories around 3000. I'm not looking to put on any more weight at the moment. I just want to eat enough to recover.

On a related note: why increase both carbs and calories? If you do both, you won't know which one was making you feel tired, the reduced carbs or the reduced calories.

-S.

[homerj742]

On a related note: why increase both carbs and calories? If you do both, you won't know which one was making you feel tired, the reduced carbs or the reduced calories.

-S.

True, there are a lot of variables. I suppose I will tweak and experiment next week and see what works best. Thanks for pointing that out...

[strongdaniel]

You might follow Nisora's advice, too. Do you know for certain that you should cut sugars? I say this because you aren't getting much sugar outside of milk. If you keep your calories constant, then you do need to figure out which nutrient to manipulate (carbs/fat). Try eating a high-carb meal and test for yourself whether you feel pretty good or a little tired. If it's the latter, by all means, cut the sugar. If it's the former, then you should manipulate your fat intake.

Great advice, will do.