Special Kind Of Tendonitis?

[Dastardly]

In starting strength Rip mentions that if you go on squatting with the incorrect method which allows your knees to shoft forwards at the bottom, is can cause a special kind of tendinitis . I was just wondering what this is supposed to feel like?

I was squatting that "wrong" way for the whole of last year. And I have some soreness in my right hamstring that does not go away. The soreness is at the attachements/insertions both at the hip end and where is attaches inside the knee.

I can feel it on both the medial and lateral hamstrings at the hip end. And the knee end pain is under the patella.

The pain is greatest under stretching. Is doesnt really hurt to much when squatting, but stretching can be unbearable, and it feels I could due some real damage at the knee end if I were aggressive.

I was just wondering if this was perhaps connected to squatting the wrong way for so long? Or perhaps a ligament injury in my right knee around march last year?

Will it go away by itself, or do I need to do something like the starr rehab?

[tnumrych]

The "special" kind of tendinitis caused by the knee slide at the bottom would be felt in the front of the hip. It's tendinitis of the tendon of the rectus femoris (part of the quadriceps that also acts as a hip flexor and attaches to the AIIS) and possibly the sartorius (attached to the ASIS).

As far as your specific issue goes, I am not sure. I'm not sure what you mean by "squatting the wrong way" but a similar thing could ostensibly happen to your hamstring attachments (as the knees shift forward they pull on the respective origins of the hamstrings), but that doesn't explain the insertion point soreness unless you are wavering backwards and forwards and the hamstrings are being pulled at both ends. This of course is total conjecture on my part as I've never heard or read or seen such a thing. Maybe Rip would be a better person to ask this question?

[nisora33]

Not enough information. Anything any of us might suggest as a diagnosis would be the result of wild speculation. Do you have some slight, chronic inflammation or tightness in the hamstrings? Yes, probably, but we wouldn't know what's causing it unless we were to coach you day in and day out in person and observe you're lifting habits.

You're hypochondria is running rampant lately, Dastardly. Hell, I currently have a chronically sore hamstring near the pelvis and pain and tightness a bit lower from an injury last year, bursitis in my lateral knee/some IT-band shit there, a sore left elbow, a tight, crackly left shoulder and a sore neck that hasn't gotten better in probably 2 or three years. None of it ever becomes quite "serious" (depending on how you, personally, want to define the term, of course), but holy smokes, it's not the end of the world, bro.

EDIT: I just noticed that I didn't use the word "fuck" in this post even once. So there you go.

-Stacey

[scotty022]

Hell, I currently have a chronically sore hamstring near the pelvis and pain and tightness a bit lower from an injury last year, bursitis in my lateral knee/some IT-band shit there, a sore left elbow, a tight, crackly left shoulder and a sore neck that hasn't gotten better in probably 2 or three years.

Apologies if this is a naive question; I was not involved in competitive sports in high school or college. But I've always been curious: is a collection of chronic, moderately-painful injuries an unavoidable part of lifting heavy? I don't know about Dastardly, but my own personal hypochrondia exists specifically in the hopes of avoiding a catalogue like yours or worse, Rip's, of joint pains that never go away.

This can be a tricky thing to navigate for someone with little athletic experience. I know that in my case, I've been going forward under the assumption that moderate, and sometimes severe, day-to-day aches and pains are inevitable. But I've also assumed they'd be day-to-day, not permanent: if I'm going to spend the rest of my life descending stairs as gingerly as I do now, and also remain permanently unable to jump at all without some real pain, then I'll need to reevaluate the program.

Basically, I am a non-athlete and therefore an idiot about what all my pain does and doesn't mean. Since there's not a locker room full of teammates and a staff full of trainers/coaches to ask, I turn to the internet. I feel fortunate to have found a good place to look, where I feel confident that the advice is sound. But even with that help, it's still sometimes hard to walk the line between, "Don't be a pussy, keep lifting" and, "Don't be stupid, go to a chiropractor."

tl;dr: When you have no athletic experience, knowing when to ignore pain and when to listen to it can be really tricky.

EDIT: To Stacy and all the other experienced folks--us idiots really appreciate all the time and effort y'all put into these boards. And that you make them safe for saying 'fuck' a lot.

[tnumrych]

FUCK!

I thought I begin with that. If nothing else, it at least carries on the tradition.

Scotty,
To paraphrase Rip, no one has ever said that training isn't supposed to hurt, things will hurt from time to time of course. But most people that never train a day in their life, also hurt from time to time. Your pain is due to activity, theirs is due to the contrary.

To me the alternative to not training is unacceptable. When I look at how some of my sedentary friends at even the young age of 26 look like and foreshadow them fifteen years forth I cringe at the thought. Most old time lifters live long lives (see Tommy Kono, Tommy Suggs, dare I say so, Rip), with or without the pain of injuries accumulated over the years. The difference between them and their untrained counterparts is that they live long active and independent years. When I'm 75 I would prefer not to be bedridden and having a nurse wipe my ass daily because I'm too weak to do it myself .
I would prefer to be able to get up, walk over to the toilet, sit down under my own volition, squeeze a turd out, be strong enough to stand up, wipe my ass and continue with my day.

The difference between enduring some pains here and there now and going through life abhorring them is the level of independence you will have later in life. Any activity carries some risk of developing some pain along the way. Choosing strength training I choose one that will inoculate me against the perils of old age. What I usually tell my "only cardio" inclined clients, what will be more of a factor when you are old, whether or not your heart is strong enough so you can make it to the toilet or whether or not you can actually get up off of it?

When making your decision, just think about the consequences of the lack of said activity. I reckon you will choose the active path

Just my $.02.

P.S. We also can not stress more the distinction of training for fitness and training for competition. With the latter you fully know and accept the risks and at that time, for you, the benefit far outweighs the risks. That is the risk you take by competing.

[nisora33]

But I've always been curious: is a collection of chronic, moderately-painful injuries an unavoidable part of lifting heavy? I don't know about Dastardly...

Moderately painful, maybe. Severely painful, no. None of the stuff that I listed is severe in nature, just chronic and mildly painful, especially until I'm warmed up most days. But I need to say this: I think that these chronic or sporadic niggling-type injuries come at a higher rate for some people than others. I should add that one's general temperament combined with life stressors has a lot to do with recovery from exercise, also (I'm very high-strong and quick to temper--ya'll think it's just this board where I behave like this, it happens everywhere else, too). You may suffer this kind of pain and general stress more or less regularly than the next person, depending on you. You have to decide what's an acceptable amount of this kind of thing going forward.

And I should add, once more, that much of the shit I'm going through is carryover from a six-year stint of over-training with martial arts, running and muscle-mag bodybuilding-style training. Two of those six years was full-contact training (broken ankles, broken noses, cuts, bruises, and repetitive motion injuries). I have never taken more than a week off from physical activity at any one time.


This can be a tricky thing to navigate for someone with little athletic experience. I know that in my case, I've been going forward under the assumption that moderate, and sometimes severe, day-to-day aches and pains are inevitable.Yes, it can be tricky. And that's part of the education you receive via any athletic pursuit: the ability to distinguish between what is/is fast becoming a serious injury, when to apply the breaks and re-evaluate what you're doing, or just keep pressing forward. And again, I want to reiterate that severe day-to-day pain is not normal and should not be trained through, I don't think anyone would endorse that, at least not unless you're doing all of this competitively.



Basically, I am a non-athlete and therefore an idiot about what all my pain does and doesn't mean...it's still sometimes hard to walk the line between, "Don't be a pussy, keep lifting" and, "Don't be stupid, go to a chiropractor."Again, I completely understand this. The good thing is you have a board of like-minded people following a similar path to yours. The bad thing is, you have to make these kinds of decisions all on your own, no one can make them for you.




EDIT: To Stacy and all the other experienced folks--us idiots really appreciate all the time and effort y'all put into these boards. And that you make them safe for saying 'fuck' a lot.From one fucking idiot to another: you're welcome.

-Stacey

[nisora33]

tnumrych, not only do we look alike, but our attitudes towards training and injury are identical.

Weird.

-S.

[TomC]

but my own personal hypochrondia exists specifically in the hopes of avoiding a catalogue like yours or worse, Rip's, of joint pains that never go away.

I believe I read that Rip fell off the roof of a house or a ladder (or something along those lines) and has been in one or more moderately serious motorcycle accidents. I would bet that some of his aches and pains come from those injuries.

[tnumrych]

tnumrych, not only do we look alike, but our attitudes towards training and injury are identical.

Weird.

-S.

Brothers from another mother? Are you Polish?

[nisora33]

Mother's side of the family originates from Ireland (Beard/Baird). Father's side, I don't know. Maybe there's some Polish back there somewhere.

-S.

[Dastardly]

You're hypochondria is running rampant lately, Dastardly. Hell, I currently have a chronically sore hamstring near the pelvis and pain and tightness a bit lower from an injury last year, bursitis in my lateral knee/some IT-band shit there, a sore left elbow, a tight, crackly left shoulder and a sore neck that hasn't gotten better in probably 2 or three years. None of it ever becomes quite "serious" (depending on how you, personally, want to define the term, of course), but holy smokes, it's not the end of the world, bro.

EDIT: I just noticed that I didn't use the word "fuck" in this post even once. So there you go.

-Stacey

What am I being hypochondriatic about? Or were you just poking fun?

I snapped something in my knee in march last year just as I was getting into lifting. It was a proper ligament tear down to every last detail. My whole leg was swollen for weeks and I couldnt straighten out the leg.

By the time I managed to get a scan, it was june. And I had already done a lot of my own rehab for it, they could no longer pinpoint what had actually happened. But I have had persistent symptoms since.

I get pain in the knee when standing or walking for a long time. The knee feels unstable, the knee just doesnt feel held together properly. If I sit with a bent/crossed leg I can barely stand up afterwards. My knee feels really screwed up from being stretched into a bad position, it gets very stiff and painful. My knee is also clicky now in addition to the unstable feeling, the clicks get painful too.

In summer last year, by the time I started squatting properly again, my right hamstring developed this permanent soreness at the two ends. Like I said, the patella end is by far the worst. It really feels like if I stretch hard, it will tear my patella tendon right out.

I have been squatting hard since then, and also stretching thoroughly but carefully (due to worrying pain) because the therapist I saw a couple times said stretching hamstrings was very important.

Recently I have been feeling sharper clicks and also at very shallow bends, as oppossed to the softer clicks at a deep bend.

I am in the territory of all new squat weights now after long months of various deload cycles. Following strict SS protocol has nudged me past my plateau finally. But the weight is feeling brutally heavy, and my knees (even the non injured one) are often feeling very insecure/stiff, the right one getting worrying sharp clicks, and this permanent soreness on the hamstrings is all getting a bit worrying.

I am still pushing ahead with squatting, but I kind of feel that the hamstring is vulnerable to complete tear/detachment sometime very soon. So am getting worried. I took off three weeks during christmas, but still these symptoms never reduced at all.

[nisora33]

What am I being hypochondriatic about? Or were you just poking fun?

I snapped something in my knee in march last year just as I was getting into lifting. It was a proper ligament tear down to every last detail. My whole leg was swollen for weeks and I couldnt straighten out the leg.

By the time I managed to get a scan, it was june. And I had already done a lot of my own rehab for it, they could no longer pinpoint what had actually happened. But I have had persistent symptoms since.

I get pain in the knee when standing or walking for a long time. The knee feels unstable, the knee just doesnt feel held together properly. If I sit with a bent/crossed leg I can barely stand up afterwards. My knee feels really screwed up from being stretched into a bad position, it gets very stiff and painful. My knee is also clicky now in addition to the unstable feeling, the clicks get painful too.

In summer last year, by the time I started squatting properly again, my right hamstring developed this permanent soreness at the two ends. Like I said, the patella end is by far the worst. It really feels like if I stretch hard, it will tear my patella tendon right out.

I have been squatting hard since then, and also stretching thoroughly but carefully (due to worrying pain) because the therapist I saw a couple times said stretching hamstrings was very important.

Recently I have been feeling sharper clicks and also at very shallow bends, as oppossed to the softer clicks at a deep bend.

I am in the territory of all new squat weights now after long months of various deload cycles. Following strict SS protocol has nudged me past my plateau finally. But the weight is feeling brutally heavy, and my knees (even the non injured one) are often feeling very insecure/stiff, the right one getting worrying sharp clicks, and this permanent soreness on the hamstrings is all getting a bit worrying.

I am still pushing ahead with squatting, but I kind of feel that the hamstring is vulnerable to complete tear/detachment sometime very soon. So am getting worried. I took off three weeks during christmas, but still these symptoms never reduced at all.


I UNDESTAND that you had a legitimate tear in a ligament. But...

Dastardly, ever notice that there's a trend in your posts? Lot's of worry over this, worry over that. Am I gonna hurt this, is this a sign of that?

And you're mentioning ligament tears and hamstring soreness in the same breath, as if they're somehow related. Which is it, the ligament that's bothering you, or the hamstrings, or both? What will it be next week, then the week after, then the week after that?

Now I can't say for sure that your hamstring's not going to completely break the fuck in two sometime soon. But then again, judging from the tone and content of your posts, I'd say you tend to overreact to things. A lot. But do whatever the hell you want, of course, I'm just some fucking idiot on the internet, you don't have to listen to me.

But I think you need to chill the fuck out, dude, seriously.

[nisora33]

And why don't you read this:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showpost.php?p=100640&postcount=6

[Dastardly]

Dont worry, I still love you stacey and value your opinion.

Ill read all your ranting tomorrow, need to sleep. It is 2.40am here.

[nisora33]

Just trying to give you the tough love here. Sayin' the shit I wish someone had said to me many moons ago.

-S.

[CThomas]

Ill read all your ranting tomorrow, need to sleep. It is 2.40am here.

Hey Dastardly,

My eyeballs popped a bit when I saw that. A person shooting for linear progression and LBM gain, complaining of sore muscles/tendons/whatever, but up at wee hours of the morning. Something does not compute.

So I had a look at your posts over time, and it looks to me like you post for the most part between 2 PM and 3 AM wherever you are.

Nothing screws me up faster than bad sleep. Just about everything starts to hurt and tighten up, even if I'm not exercising. I cannot even comprehend keeping the hours you seem to keep.

So what's the go? Are you working some sort of weird shift? How much sleep do you get, and is it deep sleep?

[nisora33]

CThomas is one clever monkey.

[Dastardly]

My sleep is not not deprived at all by timing. The amount of time I can sleep is sometimes deprived by my back pain however. It is often rather uncomfortable to lie down. But I dont think sleep is at all a recovery problem for me.

However this soreness in my hamstring has been getting worse. I looked up some of the details and it seems to fit the description of tendinopathy.

I actually took a break for a few days because I was getting worried about it, did not really help though. So I decided to squat with my new olympic shoes with which I can handle smaller weights due to the quad dominance I am not used to. It worked fairly well, I was able to squat without too much aggrevation to hamstrings.

But now the day after, it is feeling very rough again. I think that id I am to continue squatting I am going to have to do front squats more often and always use the shoes, even for back squat.

I asked Rip how to deal with hamstring tendonitis/tendinopathy but he hasnt approved the question yet.

[Sgsolberg]

Have you gotten a vicious massage? It did wonders for my touchy hammies. On the other hand, the other option is to HTFU and take care of yourself.

[Dastardly]

Have you gotten a vicious massage? It did wonders for my touchy hammies. On the other hand, the other option is to HTFU and take care of yourself.


I will ask my friends, but I dont think I know anyone that intimately.