You must eat big, or you're a pussy!!!

[nisora33]

Okay, now that I've gotten the obligatory macho chest-thumping out of the way...

I'm putting this in the “Recovery” subforum because dietary habits determine, in part, the quality and extent of one's recovery (Stef, feel free to move this post if you disagree).

On to the "meat" of the post (hehe):

There is an ongoing "tension" between those who'd prefer not to eat big, fearing the negative health consequences and dreaded fat gain, and those who are "all for it," arguing that massive overfeeding over the short term has little impact on long-term health, while the boost to strength alone is worth any accompanying fat gain. Neither camp apparently understands the opposite’s view and every time the issue is brought up, it leads to inevitable shit-throwing (don’t get me wrong, I enjoy flinging shit as much as the next lifter).

I sympathize with the fellas who dig eating big, and don’t mind the fat gain, who crave the performance enhancement that goes along with it, etc. Because I took myself from 165 to 220 using GOMAD and other food (much of it “dirty”), consuming around 5,000-5,500 calories a day, understanding that eating of this nature wasn’t “forever.” So I don’t exactly feel partial to those of you out there who won’t just buckle down and commit to wild overfeeding, even though I can sort of understand where you’re coming from.

What’s the point of all this? In particular, I want to address the point of view that overeating and massive consumption of “dirty” foods containing high levels of saturated and trans fats plus carbs is unhealthy. Now, I’ve never argued that one should eat this way for all of one’s life, for the record, but I feel very, very strongly that short-term eating of this variety will not negatively impact your health.

Three months after starting GOMAD and “overeating,” I went by my doctor’s office for a routine check-up. He remarked on how much weight I’d gained, asked me why it had happened, and I explained to him my desire to get stronger and how I was going about accomplishing this. The gallon of whole milk raised a red flag for him, and he speculated that my blood test might come back showing elevated blood cholesterol levels. He wasn’t entirely dismissive of what I was doing, I should add, so long as I wasn’t doing this for the rest of my life. Long story short, my blood cholesterol appeared to be at normal, healthy levels, according to the tests.

This made me think about that movie Supersize Me, where the filmmaker basically did to his liver with fast food what drinkers do with alcohol by consuming McDonald’s food three times a day. In food debates, I’ve had folks bring up the documentary to illustrate just how bad junk food can be for you. And I agree with them. However, what few people remember about the film is its ending, just around the time where he went back for his final physical and blood work before ending his thirty day fast food experiment. Previous blood tests had revealed that his liver enzymes were extremely elevated, but this time, his liver panel showed that the enzymes were starting to return to normal.

Why is that important? I bring this up to illustrate how extremely adaptable and resilient the human body is, at least over the short term. The folks who experience severe negative health consequences from eating this way have usually been doing this to themselves day in and day out for many years. They’re bodies have coped and coped and coped some more, until they can no longer cope. If you’re a skinny fucking bastard, this is not you, and you’re concerns over your health, at least over the short term, are largely unfounded.

My thoughts on my personal situation are this: had I stepped into my doctor’s office a few weeks to a month following the start of GOMAD and fast food dieting, my blood tests may very well have shown elevated cholesterol levels—perhaps my liver panel, had one been taken, might have depticted elevated enzymes. But at the 2 ½ to three month point, stuff had returned to normal.

My two cents, fuckers.

-Stacey

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

I just got a physical, and have been putting it off for years because my last physical was so bad. I had triglycerides over 700 and cholesterol over 350. I was eating out 3 meals a day, living in a hotel, and not exercising for a solid year. Prior to this I was running 4-6 miles a day, and doing martial arts 6 hours a week. I was in great shape.

Now for last week's physical. I have been eating extra calories for 3 months not worrying about where it came from. My cholesterol was slightly elevated at 215. Triglycerides were 100. My liver looked excellent along with the rest of the blood panel.

So I completely agree with you. I think you can eat like shit for months as long as you are exercising, and the net effect will not be bad.

Today's lunch: 1/2 pound of pastrami, sour kraut, thousand island dressing, and 2 slices of provolone microwaved for 2 minutes. :D

[tnumrych]

Today's lunch: 1/2 pound of pastrami, sour kraut, thousand island dressing, and 2 slices of provolone microwaved for 2 minutes. :D

Dude, that sounds glorious.

Stacey, as always, good point. I fully concur, whatever that matters.

[nisora33]

Stacey, as always, good point. I fully concur, whatever that matters.

Of course you do, you're the Polish me.

-s.

[JLascek]

It is important to note that the stooge in "Supersize Me" was not training at all.

[PMDL]

A little story about me.

I started lifting at 18, in my last semester of high school. Nothing serious, just the usual curl-and-bench shit with some high squats thrown in occasionally. I weighed about 125-130 at this point.

I didn't buckle down and get serious until that summer, when I'd had enough of being that size. I pretty quickly got up to maybe 150-155, which I figure is about where my body wanted to be since I was a chronic under-eater through my teens (and that probably had some long-term effects of its own).

I fluctuated for a few years but didn't really get above 165-170 no matter how much I thought I was eating. Most of this time I was mucking around with Westside-style routines, which I really had no business doing. Also keep in mind I liked to drink a whole lot back then.

I remember being 22, about to turn 23, and just being sick of having not made any real progress for several years. Having finished up a semester at school and having sworn off alcohol for some reason or another, I had a lot of free time on my hands so I bought some weight-gainer powder (NLarge2 I think it was, some of that shit you got in the big-ass tubs) and started pounding 2 shakes per day (1000cals each, give or take).

Along with that I had a 1 to 1.5lb tray of ground beef + cheese + bread, and then a few other meals. All told it added up to over 5000 cals I was slamming consistently. This went on for a couple of months.

I was using some variant of the HST program at that time, lifting 3x/week and doing only 1-2 hard-ish sets of 10 reps for the full body.

I noticed that the scale was actually going up. Like, 3 lbs a week going up. I broke 180 and remember thinking "wow!". Then I broke 190 and was happy as could be. I got within striking distance of 200 but never quite sealed the deal.

Which brings me to the point.

I put on a ton of muscle during that process. I broke my no-alcohol rule and went out after a few months. My friend's sister saw me and asked me if I'd gone on steroids. I got a few other comments like that.

But in the scheme of things I also got pretty fat. And the more I tried to pound calories and push through that barrier, the fatter I got. I didnt' care mind you because I wanted the size. At that point I needed it, to prove I could do it. I guess this was a version of the GOMAD or whatever lame-ass acronym you people use.

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine.

It doesn't matter how hard you train, how much intensity and attitude and screaming you apply to the process. There's an asymptote for body mass there, and if you try to push past it by aggressively force-feeding, you're going to get diminishing returns. If it's worth it to you to add 10 lbs of fat for every pound of muscle, have at it.

It isn't to me. I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy, but there's little point since the strength increases are marginal and my quality of life decreases to a degree that's not acceptable to me. Getting over 220 takes extraordinary measures, including drugs, and the same limitations apply.

If you skinny kids don't know where your limit is, then you've got no business complaining about your abs. If I ever bother to truly shred up BBer style, I'll have a fairly impressive physique underneath the fat, due to the muscle built by not worrying about my abs. You don't know where your asymptote is until you go find it.

These days I don't benefit much from going hog-wild with the calories. It's not that I'm concerned with getting fat; it's because I know fat-fucking myself isn't productive. It turns into fat, and while I might get a little stronger and recover better, the negatives outweigh that for me. It's not fun getting winded when you go for a walk in exchange for an extra 10 lbs on a lift.

Coming at it from the other side of the hump, you do have to do things differently. I have to pay much more attention to my diet than I did before, because it's very easy to over-eat now. Of course, the other side of that is that by training harder and simply by virtue of being bigger, I can get away with sloppier eating from time to time, as long as I have some rules in place to keep it in check.

In other words, it's not a life-long change in your diet. You do it for a few months, or at most a few years, until you hit your point of diminishing returns. Then you re-evaluate and go from there. There's no point sitting here whining about your abs when you're not even squatting 350 or pulling 400 as a male of average height.

[nisora33]

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine...

I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy,


Yeah, about 210 is about all I can hang on my frame before I start getting sloppy. At 220-223, I was fucking miserable and not much stronger. But you're right, had I not take that journey to begin with, to get bigger, I wouldn't know this about myself.

-S.

[blowdpanis]

Just out of curiosity, Stacy, what were the before/after's for your lifts from 165 - 220?

[stronger]

cool info!

Time for a gallon and a pound of bacon for me

[BruteForce]

A little story about me.

I started lifting at 18, in my last semester of high school. Nothing serious, just the usual curl-and-bench shit with some high squats thrown in occasionally. I weighed about 125-130 at this point.

I didn't buckle down and get serious until that summer, when I'd had enough of being that size. I pretty quickly got up to maybe 150-155, which I figure is about where my body wanted to be since I was a chronic under-eater through my teens (and that probably had some long-term effects of its own).

I fluctuated for a few years but didn't really get above 165-170 no matter how much I thought I was eating. Most of this time I was mucking around with Westside-style routines, which I really had no business doing. Also keep in mind I liked to drink a whole lot back then.

I remember being 22, about to turn 23, and just being sick of having not made any real progress for several years. Having finished up a semester at school and having sworn off alcohol for some reason or another, I had a lot of free time on my hands so I bought some weight-gainer powder (NLarge2 I think it was, some of that shit you got in the big-ass tubs) and started pounding 2 shakes per day (1000cals each, give or take).

Along with that I had a 1 to 1.5lb tray of ground beef + cheese + bread, and then a few other meals. All told it added up to over 5000 cals I was slamming consistently. This went on for a couple of months.

I was using some variant of the HST program at that time, lifting 3x/week and doing only 1-2 hard-ish sets of 10 reps for the full body.

I noticed that the scale was actually going up. Like, 3 lbs a week going up. I broke 180 and remember thinking "wow!". Then I broke 190 and was happy as could be. I got within striking distance of 200 but never quite sealed the deal.

Which brings me to the point.

I put on a ton of muscle during that process. I broke my no-alcohol rule and went out after a few months. My friend's sister saw me and asked me if I'd gone on steroids. I got a few other comments like that.

But in the scheme of things I also got pretty fat. And the more I tried to pound calories and push through that barrier, the fatter I got. I didnt' care mind you because I wanted the size. At that point I needed it, to prove I could do it. I guess this was a version of the GOMAD or whatever lame-ass acronym you people use.

In any case, everybody has a pretty hard limit for how much muscle you can add, drug-free, before partitioning goes to hell. Which means there's an asymptote for how useful fat-fucking yourself can be. Roughly 200-210 lbs of body mass is mine.

It doesn't matter how hard you train, how much intensity and attitude and screaming you apply to the process. There's an asymptote for body mass there, and if you try to push past it by aggressively force-feeding, you're going to get diminishing returns. If it's worth it to you to add 10 lbs of fat for every pound of muscle, have at it.

It isn't to me. I can get to 215-220 if I get sloppy, but there's little point since the strength increases are marginal and my quality of life decreases to a degree that's not acceptable to me. Getting over 220 takes extraordinary measures, including drugs, and the same limitations apply.

If you skinny kids don't know where your limit is, then you've got no business complaining about your abs. If I ever bother to truly shred up BBer style, I'll have a fairly impressive physique underneath the fat, due to the muscle built by not worrying about my abs. You don't know where your asymptote is until you go find it.

These days I don't benefit much from going hog-wild with the calories. It's not that I'm concerned with getting fat; it's because I know fat-fucking myself isn't productive. It turns into fat, and while I might get a little stronger and recover better, the negatives outweigh that for me. It's not fun getting winded when you go for a walk in exchange for an extra 10 lbs on a lift.

Coming at it from the other side of the hump, you do have to do things differently. I have to pay much more attention to my diet than I did before, because it's very easy to over-eat now. Of course, the other side of that is that by training harder and simply by virtue of being bigger, I can get away with sloppier eating from time to time, as long as I have some rules in place to keep it in check.

In other words, it's not a life-long change in your diet. You do it for a few months, or at most a few years, until you hit your point of diminishing returns. Then you re-evaluate and go from there. There's no point sitting here whining about your abs when you're not even squatting 350 or pulling 400 as a male of average height.

Back again. Just a question. Why do you think you get stuck there? What are the bodily systems stopping you from gaining quality mass past that point (drug free) Not looking for a "study" posting contest. Just curious.

[StrongIslander,NY]

Regarding weight gain while lifting whether muscle or fat effects your organs. if normal you is 150 and you add 50 lbs it stresses your organs. they gotta work harder with the added weight.

[TChase76]

Okay, now that I've gotten the obligatory macho chest-thumping out of the way...

I'm putting this in the “Recovery” subforum because dietary habits determine, in part, the quality and extent of one's recovery (Stef, feel free to move this post if you disagree).

On to the "meat" of the post (hehe):

There is an ongoing "tension" between those who'd prefer not to eat big, fearing the negative health consequences and dreaded fat gain, and those who are "all for it," arguing that massive overfeeding over the short term has little impact on long-term health, while the boost to strength alone is worth any accompanying fat gain. Neither camp apparently understands the opposite’s view and every time the issue is brought up, it leads to inevitable shit-throwing (don’t get me wrong, I enjoy flinging shit as much as the next lifter).

I sympathize with the fellas who dig eating big, and don’t mind the fat gain, who crave the performance enhancement that goes along with it, etc. Because I took myself from 165 to 220 using GOMAD and other food (much of it “dirty”), consuming around 5,000-5,500 calories a day, understanding that eating of this nature wasn’t “forever.” So I don’t exactly feel partial to those of you out there who won’t just buckle down and commit to wild overfeeding, even though I can sort of understand where you’re coming from.

What’s the point of all this? In particular, I want to address the point of view that overeating and massive consumption of “dirty” foods containing high levels of saturated and trans fats plus carbs is unhealthy. Now, I’ve never argued that one should eat this way for all of one’s life, for the record, but I feel very, very strongly that short-term eating of this variety will not negatively impact your health.

Three months after starting GOMAD and “overeating,” I went by my doctor’s office for a routine check-up. He remarked on how much weight I’d gained, asked me why it had happened, and I explained to him my desire to get stronger and how I was going about accomplishing this. The gallon of whole milk raised a red flag for him, and he speculated that my blood test might come back showing elevated blood cholesterol levels. He wasn’t entirely dismissive of what I was doing, I should add, so long as I wasn’t doing this for the rest of my life. Long story short, my blood cholesterol appeared to be at normal, healthy levels, according to the tests.

This made me think about that movie Supersize Me, where the filmmaker basically did to his liver with fast food what drinkers do with alcohol by consuming McDonald’s food three times a day. In food debates, I’ve had folks bring up the documentary to illustrate just how bad junk food can be for you. And I agree with them. However, what few people remember about the film is its ending, just around the time where he went back for his final physical and blood work before ending his thirty day fast food experiment. Previous blood tests had revealed that his liver enzymes were extremely elevated, but this time, his liver panel showed that the enzymes were starting to return to normal.

Why is that important? I bring this up to illustrate how extremely adaptable and resilient the human body is, at least over the short term. The folks who experience severe negative health consequences from eating this way have usually been doing this to themselves day in and day out for many years. They’re bodies have coped and coped and coped some more, until they can no longer cope. If you’re a skinny fucking bastard, this is not you, and you’re concerns over your health, at least over the short term, are largely unfounded.

My thoughts on my personal situation are this: had I stepped into my doctor’s office a few weeks to a month following the start of GOMAD and fast food dieting, my blood tests may very well have shown elevated cholesterol levels—perhaps my liver panel, had one been taken, might have depticted elevated enzymes. But at the 2 ½ to three month point, stuff had returned to normal.

My two cents, fuckers.

-Stacey


Check out the movie Fat Head. You will enjoy it.

[PVC]

Check out the movie Fat Head. You will enjoy it.

I just typed this into google, and my preliminary opinion is that it looks awesome.

Here's a link:
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/

[PMDL]

Back again. Just a question. Why do you think you get stuck there? What are the bodily systems stopping you from gaining quality mass past that point (drug free) Not looking for a "study" posting contest. Just curious.

There's a lot of interlocking regulatory mechanisms in place from the muscle-level right on up to the brain-level that govern how much tissue mass you can add and how much of excess calories are partitioned into muscle vs. fat tissue.

It's controlled genetically and there's not a lot short of drugs you can do to change it.

[mcsquared]

PMDL, what are you lifting/how tall are you?

My situation is similar...In high school I was a little over six foot weighing a mere 150 pounds. This progressed throughout most of college, where I dicked around with Crossfit. Then I found SS, started gaining weight. My lifts shot up, my weight sky rocketed, and I weighed in at 185 prior to being forced to cut intake b/c of Air Force fitness standards. When I finally got back into it, I weighed in at 190-195. That was December 2009. Now, I weigh 210, but my instinct says if I keep overfeeding, I'll just see fat gains. My waist has exploded from a 36" to a 38" which has led to me cutting back on eating because of Air Force fitness standards yet again. Thusly, I've watched my caloric intake and cut it down to a more reasonable surplus rather than just eat everything in sight. We'll see how my lifts progress from here.

But I definitely agree with the overall point of this thread. If I hadn't gone a little wild with my eating, if I hadn't found SS and the "radical" philosophy it proposes, I'd still be a skinny kid with nothing but skin on my bones.

[Rorschach]

I guess this was a version of the GOMAD or whatever lame-ass acronym you people use.

Hey!
What do you mean "you people"?

*burp*

[BruteForce]

There's a lot of interlocking regulatory mechanisms in place from the muscle-level right on up to the brain-level that govern how much tissue mass you can add and how much of excess calories are partitioned into muscle vs. fat tissue.

It's controlled genetically and there's not a lot short of drugs you can do to change it.

Just a hypothesis. What if you kept eating the same foods that you were eating for weight gain, but, changed the pro/carb/fat ratios around, to where you were getting even more protien, more fat, and the same carbs, and threw cardio several times a week. add 1,000 cals to your diet, do substantially more low intensity cardio, and simply see what happens.

[cjangelo]

Now, I weigh 210, but my instinct says if I keep overfeeding, I'll just see fat gains.

You're 6ft tall. You can definitely get bigger than 210. Don't be ridiculous.



And what's this shit about not wanting to be breathing heavy just for an extra 10lbs on your lifts? Do some cardio, 120-130BPM, 30-45minutes, several days a week. You'll feel better, sleep better, recover better, and won't be breathing hard and can continue to gain weight.

[nisora33]

Just out of curiosity, Stacy, what were the before/after's for your lifts from 165 - 220?

The numbers at 165 lbs. are drawn from memory, since I didn't keep great records at the time:

Press: 65 lbs. X 5
Bench: 90 lbs. X 5
Squat: 90 lbs. X 5
Deadlift: 115 lbs. X 5

Could have gone heavier with the squat and deadlift, because I remember being very timid with these due to some previous back trouble. The bench and press numbers were in fact balls-out heavy for me.

At the start of last summer, before different road blocks sprang up, I recorded these numbers at a bodyweight of around 220:

Press: 147 X 3, 153 X 1
Bench: no benching since 1st of last year, continued shoulder shit
(beginning to think benching just isn't in the cards for me)
Squat: 290 X 5 (knee shit had been giving me problems for a while, began
a deadlift-only program earlier in the year)
Deadlift: 355 X 4, 380 X 1 (alternate grip, unbelted, very high-hipped,
almost an SLDL--form had shifted without my even realizing it, though comments from PMDL coupled with seeing how other really strong guys pull has me wanting to pull this way, with some deliberate spinal flexion added from now on)
Hang power clean: 145 X 3 (suck dick at cleans, form always all over the
place, further aggravates the knee shit, too)

Like I pointed out in another thread, I have to train around lots of niggling aches and pains, scar tissue and such, from previous activities, and sometimes my training is a lot of 1 step forward, two steps back. I'm too dumb and stubborn to stop training for any length of time--I'm not sure that it would make much difference, anyway.

My body fat percentage is around 20 percent right now at a bodyweight of 210, though at 220-223 it could have been as much as 23 percent. I'm happy at my current weight and body composition, though.

-S.

[BruteForce]

You're 6ft tall. You can definitely get bigger than 210. Don't be ridiculous.



And what's this shit about not wanting to be breathing heavy just for an extra 10lbs on your lifts? Do some cardio, 120-130BPM, 30-45minutes, several days a week. You'll feel better, sleep better, recover better, and won't be breathing hard and can continue to gain weight.

I second that. You could definitely be larger at that height. Added cardio, and decrease the rest periods between your sets and exercises. Keep your heart rate up during your lifting, and do cardio afterwards, and eat 1 or 2 more meals per day.

[PMDL]

PMDL, what are you lifting/how tall are you?

I'm 175cm/5'9 or so.

All-time bests?

Squat (in street clothes, no belt): 405x3, 425x2
Bench: I think I hit 305 raw? This has never been a good lift for me due to bad shoulders + long arms
DL: 500x5, 525x3, 545x2

Squat is shit right now due to a torn quad that I'm slowly rehabbing. I'd gotten it back up to 140kg x10 reps going into my last meet, which historically put me up around a 400 lb squat, but who knows what I could have really done.

Bench is in the same boat, being eased back up. I can knock out 100kg for a consistent 8, maybe 10 reps on an all-out set. No idea what top-end strength looks like and I'm in no hurry to test it.

If my DL training is going to plan I may have 250-255kg in me right now, which is not quite a PR from the old numbers, but getting close.


Just a hypothesis. What if you kept eating the same foods that you were eating for weight gain, but, changed the pro/carb/fat ratios around, to where you were getting even more protien, more fat, and the same carbs, and threw cardio several times a week. add 1,000 cals to your diet, do substantially more low intensity cardio, and simply see what happens.

Been there, done that. The problem in that case is eating 5000 calories worth of high-protein/high-fat diet. Needless to say that doesn't last long.

[BruteForce]

Been there, done that. The problem in that case is eating 5000 calories worth of high-protein/high-fat diet. Needless to say that doesn't last long.

From a money standpoint? Or just consistently eating that much?

[ZKP]

When one is a waif little fuck he needs to cut that shit out and start attacking fast food, fried meat, and milk with a vengance. He needs to lift Hard and Heavy 2-4 times a week. Once he elevates from little man status he needs to watch what he puts into his mouth a little more carefully, lets he become a lard ass, while maintaining necessary protein for growth and repair. It becomes a balancing act at this point. We do different things depending on our needs and goals. What little man thinks is "a lot" is ushualy not. Hence the hounding .........."Eat more, Fucker!" But to propose that more is always better is simply simple minded, and dangerous to progress. My two cents....

[mcsquared]

You're 6ft tall. You can definitely get bigger than 210. Don't be ridiculous.

I'm not saying that at all. I believe, however, that I have to start watching what I eat and simply cannot inhale everything in sight like I used to. Considering the size of my gut, that would not be wise for my career. That isn't ridiculous.



I second that. You could definitely be larger at that height. Added cardio, and decrease the rest periods between your sets and exercises. Keep your heart rate up during your lifting, and do cardio afterwards, and eat 1 or 2 more meals per day.

I keep my rest periods high between sets in order to maintain form. I'm adding cardio on off-days. We'll see how things work.

[BruteForce]

I keep my rest periods high between sets in order to maintain form. I'm adding cardio on off-days. We'll see how things work.

Just watch the type of carbs and fats, keep the protiens up, and you should be fine continuing to add size.

[SamKeyworth]

Thanks Stacey,

I hope people take something out of this, and it clears things up.

My major concern is with people misinterpreting the context of 70's big and what it is really about.

My observation on these forums, is that it is becoming an excuse simply to "eat big" without ever really "training hard". I am seeing this more and more in the "older" crowd.

My 2nd concern is with people becoming dogmatic about eating 70's big, and recommending it as a "one size fits all" approach. For those willing to put the "effort" in, it can be extremely effective. For those who are not, just going to the gym is an achievement.

Maybe my expectations and experiences with people are far too low. I guess you could argue this is a strength forum, so everyone should just stop being a pussy and train and eat harder.

~ Sam.

[misspelledgeoff]

Who are you talking about exactly.


Thanks Stacey,

I hope people take something out of this, and it clears things up.

My major concern is with people misinterpreting the context of 70's big and what it is really about.

My observation on these forums, is that it is becoming an excuse simply to "eat big" without ever really "training hard". I am seeing this more and more in the "older" crowd.

My 2nd concern is with people becoming dogmatic about eating 70's big, and recommending it as a "one size fits all" approach. For those willing to put the "effort" in, it can be extremely effective. For those who are not, just going to the gym is an achievement.

Maybe my expectations and experiences with people are far too low. I guess you could argue this is a strength forum, so everyone should just stop being a pussy and train and eat harder.

~ Sam.

[Mr.City]

He might of been reading Msingh's blog or maybe a few of the bb.com guys who dropped out because they "gained too much fat and enough muscle." I'll admit that I ate too much shitty food for a while for straightening my shit out though.

[Dastardly]

lolzers, look what I found:

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_truth_about_bulking;jsessionid=5AD4233CF99B6A4 8DC0FF49E3D65C5CF-he.hydra

The before & after pictures are enough to make anyone feel sick.

[nisora33]

Back again. Just a question. Why do you think you get stuck there? What are the bodily systems stopping you from gaining quality mass past that point (drug free) Not looking for a "study" posting contest. Just curious.


http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14061&page=7

[Joe D.]

People forget that they can still eat relatively clean foods and still gain weight.

[BruteForce]

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=14061&page=7

For the vast majority of people, I absolutely agree that is about where people get stuck. I will only say, that I've seen a few people exceed this naturally, but they had waaay better than average genetics and larger than average frames. I've never personally met someone at 10% bf or less at 6ft or less who is over 215 natty.

[BruteForce]

I've read a few posts here where guys get to 220+ natty and complain about cardiovascular stamina. Why not just add some cardio training a few times per week?

[PMDL]

Because then you don't weigh 220+ anymore.

[BruteForce]

Because then you don't weigh 220+ anymore.

I'm not talking high intensity. walking around the block for 30 minutes or so with the dog every day. walk on the treadmill with a hoody on. stuff like that. you won't drop pounds with that kind of cardio. especially if you're eating enough which i know you are.

[coreJack]

lolzers, look what I found:
Interesting article; helps explain a few things I've noticed.

[Mr.City]

People forget that they can still eat relatively clean foods and still gain weight.

Maybe people are being dogmatic, but the only reason, as for as I know, that recommend "a dirty bulk" is to gain weight very quickly due to lack of time and money. Nothing's set in stone here.

[MAD9692]

At the end of my linear progression I weighed a little over 220lbs. I walked my dog 2 or 3 times a day 30-45 minutes each time. My experience is that walking does dick for cardio. I was always winded an every time I climbed a flight of stairs my heart would be pounding and I would suck wind. I generally felt like shit all around however I knew that this was somthing I had to go through to milk my linear progression. So I dealt with it. Once my linear progression was up, I cut out the GOMAD and just ate 4-5 big hearty meals a day. My weight dropped to 205 and I feel great. I'm no longer winded, I lost my gut, and I can still train heavy (5/3/1).

[BruteForce]

At the end of my linear progression I weighed a little over 220lbs. I walked my dog 2 or 3 times a day 30-45 minutes each time. My experience is that walking does dick for cardio. I was always winded an every time I climbed a flight of stairs my heart would be pounding and I would suck wind. I generally felt like shit all around however I knew that this was somthing I had to go through to milk my linear progression. So I dealt with it. Once my linear progression was up, I cut out the GOMAD and just ate 4-5 big hearty meals a day. My weight dropped to 205 and I feel great. I'm no longer winded, I lost my gut, and I can still train heavy (5/3/1).

I don't understand that. You were 220 and couldnt climb stairs. How fat were you? Why the hell would you let your cardio go THAT badly? Its all well and good being strong but at the expense of every ounce of cardio endurance? I don't see it. Were you walking your dog 1 mile an hour on a level surface? Climb a hill maybe? I dunno. I'm 5'10 225 at 18-19 percent going by one of the electroscanner things. I'm not lean by any means but I can climb stairs and do some cardio without a pounding heart.

[Mr.City]

Bruteforce, I see you advocating some low impact LSD, however wouldn't it be more appropriate to program in some metcon?

[stronger]

I don't understand that. You were 220 and couldnt climb stairs. How fat were you? Why the hell would you let your cardio go THAT badly? Its all well and good being strong but at the expense of every ounce of cardio endurance? I don't see it. Were you walking your dog 1 mile an hour on a level surface? Climb a hill maybe? I dunno. I'm 5'10 225 at 18-19 percent going by one of the electroscanner things. I'm not lean by any means but I can climb stairs and do some cardio without a pounding heart.

because it's only for a short time, and can be fixed very quickly. I'm 5'9 195, 18-20% bf and have pretty good cardio conditioning, so this doesn't really apply to me. I can run double step up a long escalator and not lose my breath, and can shovel snow at a torrid pace. It just works out differently for some people I guess

and speaking of snow, since we've been getting a lot of snow lately, I've noticed the shoveling has helped my recovery time between sets. Something to keep in mind

[nisora33]

In the short term, there's no reason to sweat loss of cardiovascular endurance (unless it's impacting your performance of the lifts themselves). Seriously. The process of bringing conditioning back to average levels is quick and easy IMO. Strength, on the other hand, takes months to develop in modest amounts and years to develop beyond that. I don't see any reason to divide your energy between these two things, at least not when first starting out. MAD appears to have made it to the other side of his novice programming just fine, having experienced no long term impact on his cardiovascular health, at least that we're privy to.

-S.

[nisora33]

Sorry, Stronger, you were making the same point exactly as I was typing my post out.

-S.

[MAD9692]

I don't understand that. You were 220 and couldnt climb stairs. How fat were you? Why the hell would you let your cardio go THAT badly? Its all well and good being strong but at the expense of every ounce of cardio endurance? I don't see it. Were you walking your dog 1 mile an hour on a level surface? Climb a hill maybe? I dunno. I'm 5'10 225 at 18-19 percent going by one of the electroscanner things. I'm not lean by any means but I can climb stairs and do some cardio without a pounding heart.

Whats not to understand? I'm in my thirties. I didnt do any other lifting or cardio other than the SS linear progression and walking my dog. I went from 175lbs to 222lbs in about 4-5 months. I consumed over 6k of calories a day.I wasnt suprised by my loss of cardio at all. I didnt think I was that fat- I just had a huge gut. I dont know my BF% because thats for faggots and weirdos.

[cjangelo]

Bruteforce, I see you advocating some low impact LSD, however wouldn't it be more appropriate to program in some metcon?

Let me answer for him: No.

Think about WHY you are doing this. Your heart rate determines the effects of the cardiovascular exercise.

120-130 BPM is good for cardiac development, 100-120 BPM is usually considered recovery work. By bringing up your level of cardiac development, you can recover from your workouts more quickly, and your work capacity will increase.

Plus I can fuck for longer and just feel better in general, ie. I don't suck wind going up stairs.


If you think about this, you'll also realize that what I've said does not contradict anything Stacey said, which I happen to agree with:


In the short term, there's no reason to sweat loss of cardiovascular endurance (unless it's impacting your performance of the lifts themselves). Seriously. The process of bringing conditioning back to average levels is quick and easy IMO. Strength, on the other hand, takes months to develop in modest amounts and years to develop beyond that. I don't see any reason to divide your energy between these two things, at least not when first starting out. MAD appears to have made it to the other side of his novice programming just fine, having experienced no long term impact on his cardiovascular health, at least that we're privy to.

[MAD9692]

In the short term, there's no reason to sweat loss of cardiovascular endurance (unless it's impacting your performance of the lifts themselves). Seriously. The process of bringing conditioning back to average levels is quick and easy IMO. Strength, on the other hand, takes months to develop in modest amounts and years to develop beyond that. I don't see any reason to divide your energy between these two things, at least not when first starting out. MAD appears to have made it to the other side of his novice programming just fine, having experienced no long term impact on his cardiovascular health, at least that we're privy to.

-S.

100% This was my goal. I knew that I was going to lose my wind for a short period of time and as soon as I was done with my linear progression I would get it all back. Which I did. I lost a little over 15lbs since then, I got my wind back, kept almost all my strength gains and I am currently breaking rep PR's using Wendlers 5/3/1. The weight that I did lose looks entirely to be off my gut. I dont know the accuracy of this, but this is what the mirror shows me. I'll take a loss of wind and a short term gut for a 150lb squat increase anyday.

[BruteForce]

By bringing up your level of cardiac development, you can recover from your workouts more quickly, and your work capacity will increase. I don't suck wind going up stairs.

That is why i advocate it. There is no reason you can't do enough low impact cardio to keep your cardio capacity up while gaining weight. You aren't going to endanger your weight gain when you are eating that much walking the treadmill at a slight incline, or just walking a track with a few ups and downs.

[MAD9692]

That is why i advocate it. There is no reason you can't do enough low impact cardio to keep your cardio capacity up while gaining weight. You aren't going to endanger your weight gain when you are eating that much walking the treadmill at a slight incline, or just walking a track with a few ups and downs.


My experience was that 3*30-40 minute walks a day had no impact whatsoever on my cardio capacity. While I was often winded when climbing stairs and such, I never had a problem going for walks. This says something.

[BruteForce]

My experience was that 3*30-40 minute walks a day had no impact whatsoever on my cardio capacity. While I was often winded when climbing stairs and such, I never had a problem going for walks. This says something.

You do need to get your heart rate up when you're walking, if you aren't then you can't consider it cardio. Get on a treadmill with a hoodie on and raise the incline to 5 or so and walk at 3 mph for 30 mins. Your heart rate will be around 140 or so but the pace is slow enough that you can maintain it.

[MAD9692]

You do need to get your heart rate up when you're walking, if you aren't then you can't consider it cardio. Get on a treadmill with a hoodie on and raise the incline to 5 or so and walk at 3 mph for 30 mins. Your heart rate will be around 140 or so but the pace is slow enough that you can maintain it.

Good point. I have never tried this so I can't say it would'nt work. However for someone trying to gain weight and strength using linear progression adding this would would mean that one would not be doing the program.

[MAD9692]

So I completely agree with you. I think you can eat like shit for months as long as you are exercising, and the net effect will not be bad.


Lets discuss this.
What exactly is eating like shit? Are we all condemmed to egg whites and chicken breasts once we stop over feeding?

[BruteForce]

Good point. I have never tried this so I can't say it would'nt work. However for someone trying to gain weight and strength using linear progression adding this would would mean that one would not be doing the program.

Your linear progress wouldn't be hindered by low intensity cardio. If anything, the cardio would help with your progression because of increased work capacity and the ability to push harder.

[MAD9692]

Your linear progress wouldn't be hindered by low intensity cardio. If anything, the cardio would help with your progression because of increased work capacity and the ability to push harder.

Really? I didnt read this in SS or PPT. I never heard Rip say we should be doing some cardio to increase our strength gains. Please show me were this is recomended by Rip.

[BruteForce]

Really? I didnt read this in SS or PPT. I never heard Rip say we should be doing some cardio to increase our strength gains. Please show me were this is recomended by Rip.

It's not recommended by Rip. Do you actually believe that low intensity cardio will keep you from reaching your max lift potential?? You think it would be DETRIMENTAL to your work capacity and ability to lift harder and heavier? If you are really scared of better lung capacity hindering your lifting than by all means, don't do any cardio.

[Locutus]

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/cardio-and-mass-gains.html

BruteForce's suggestion is fine. Seriously. (Unless you look like Rostam16.)

[MAD9692]

It's not recommended by Rip. Do you actually believe that low intensity cardio will keep you from reaching your max lift potential?? You think it would be DETRIMENTAL to your work capacity and ability to lift harder and heavier? If you are really scared of better lung capacity hindering your lifting than by all means, don't do any cardio.

The term "work capacity" is fucking irritating and it sounds like Xfit mumbo jumbo. I don't know if walking on a treadmill for 30 minutes on a 5% incline with a hoody on would keep me from reaching my lifting potential, however since I decided to follow the SS program I decided to commit to it until my linear progression ended. Commiting to me meant not thinking that I know more than the person that made the program and not adding/changing the program. Towards the last month(s) of linear progression the workouts are so brutal that any additional work just doesnt make any sense. Lung capacity wasn't a concern to me because again I knew that the loss of cardio endurance was temporary. Eating, sleeping and relaxing are the keys to maintaining linear progression, walking on a treadmill with a hoodie on are not. If it was I am sure Rip would have added it to the program. In regards to lung capacity being important to me - it is. It is very important to me. I am currently staying well north of the vag and doing Wendlers 5/3/1 BBB. I run hill sprints at least 3x a week. I no longer over feed and instead of weighing 220+ I weigh 205lbs and I feel great. However none of my strength gains would have been realized so quickly if I didnt neglect my cardio endurance and just focus on my strength/weight gains. Nothing new here, this has been mentioned before.

[Bergie]

Thanks Stacey,

I hope people take something out of this, and it clears things up.

My major concern is with people misinterpreting the context of 70's big and what it is really about.

My observation on these forums, is that it is becoming an excuse simply to "eat big" without ever really "training hard". I am seeing this more and more in the "older" crowd.

My 2nd concern is with people becoming dogmatic about eating 70's big, and recommending it as a "one size fits all" approach. For those willing to put the "effort" in, it can be extremely effective. For those who are not, just going to the gym is an achievement.

Maybe my expectations and experiences with people are far too low. I guess you could argue this is a strength forum, so everyone should just stop being a pussy and train and eat harder.

~ Sam.

Hey Sam, my initial thought ..... Eat Shit and Die. Stop generalizing. I somehow doubt everyone is being a pussy.

[BruteForce]

[QUOTE=MAD9692;101921]The term "work capacity" is fucking irritating and it sounds like Xfit mumbo jumbo.

is it irritating because you don't understand it? It's not mumbo jumbo. It refers to the amount of (capacity) weight lifting (work) you can perform in the gym at X intensity.

[misspelledgeoff]

lulz! I like the way you think.


Whats not to understand? I'm in my thirties. I didnt do any other lifting or cardio other than the SS linear progression and walking my dog. I went from 175lbs to 222lbs in about 4-5 months. I consumed over 6k of calories a day.I wasnt suprised by my loss of cardio at all. I didnt think I was that fat- I just had a huge gut. I dont know my BF% because thats for faggots and weirdos.

[nisora33]

Hey Sam, my initial thought ..... Eat Shit and Die. Stop generalizing. I somehow doubt everyone is being a pussy.

All of a sudden, dead bodies EVERYWHERE.

-s.

[stronger]

MAD9692, have you experienced any strength losses during your time cutting weight?

(sorry if you have already mentioned this, I did a quick skim and couldn't find anything)

[MAD9692]

Yes, but this time I kept a suprising amount. I've gone through 3 SS cycles over the past year and a half. They all have been cut short by either an injury, work commitments or me being a pussy about having a gut. This last cycle was cut short after tweaking my back. However I'm pretty sure I was just about finished with it anyway. Who knows I'll probably have another go at it again shortly. Anyway this time, I started doing 5/3/1 just so I didnt have to squat 3x a week.(my back was fuked)
I also just cut out the GOMAD and ate primarily beef, chicken and veggies. But if I wanted to eat something - I fucking ate it. No pussiness here.This quickly got me down to 205. You know how everyone says that you have abs under your gut? This not a lie and mine are all visible again. However instead of being 175lbs and having them I'm over 200lbs and I have them. This is not my goal, but I dont fucking mind it either. In regards to my strength I started and ended with:
SQ
225 3*5 to 375 3*5
DL
385*1 to 405*5
Bench
I dont remember what I started at to 265 3*5
Press
I think it was something like 150*1 to 175 3*5

A month and a half after I ended my linear progression I have recently squated:
335*10 and 350*5. This Friday is my 5/3/1 squat day with 360lbs and I am hoping to get at least 6-7 reps.

[cjangelo]

In regards to my strength I started and ended with:
SQ
225 3*5 to 375 3*5
DL
385*1 to 405*5
Bench
I dont remember what I started at to 265 3*5
Press
I think it was something like 150*1 to 175 3*5

Sorry, I'm not entirely clear--these gains were from SS novice training?

And then you maintained gains (or lost very little) through the 5/3/1 while losing fat by running hills 3 times a week?

[MAD9692]

Yes the gains were from the SS novice program. I lost some strength when cutting out GOMAD and switching over to 5/3/1, but I kept alot of it. In regards to running hills I typically do anywere between 5-15 60-100 yard wind sprints up a hill by my house typically 2 or 3x a week. I dont credit much if any weight loss to the sprinting as there were times it snowed and I couldnt get out and get it done. It's all diet.

[BruteForce]

In regards to running hills I typically do anywere between 5-15 60-100 yard wind sprints up a hill by my house typically 2 or 3x a week.

what was up with the cardio argument? You just proved my point. You did cardio, lost useless bodyweight, and are continuing to add strength on all your lifts.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

Originally Posted by IWillLiveFreeOrDie
So I completely agree with you. I think you can eat like shit for months as long as you are exercising, and the net effect will not be bad.


Lets discuss this.
What exactly is eating like shit? Are we all condemmed to egg whites and chicken breasts once we stop over feeding?

I think if you sit on your ass all day you need to pay attention to what you eat more closely than someone who exercises.

Everything in moderation. I'm not going to waste time with egg whites to avoid a couple of grams of good fat, and I'm not giving up red bloody meat either. Life is too short to be miserable! :D

If my goal is to get excess calories to grow then I don't care where they come from. If my goal is to retain muscle while losing a little fat then I will be more careful with what I eat. Seems easy enough to me. ;)

[MAD9692]

what was up with the cardio argument? You just proved my point. You did cardio, lost useless bodyweight, and are continuing to add strength on all your lifts.

Wow..all the xfit mumbo jumbo and treadmill walking have affected this guys thought process. The argument was about me not considering walking a form of cardio. Which you later agreed with. Second I never said that you couldnt gain strength while doing cardio. That would be retarted. What I said was that cardio is not part of the SS novice program so I didnt do it. If you are following a linear progression as outlined in SS for a strength and bodyweight increase then there is no place/need for cardio otherwise I am pretty sure the author would have added it.

I am now on a different program which advocates conditioning work. Please tell me you understand this?

[MAD9692]

If my goal is to get excess calories to grow then I don't care where they come from. If my goal is to retain muscle while losing a little fat then I will be more careful with what I eat. Seems easy enough to me. ;)

Agreed, it's pretty simple.

[PMDL]

Threads like this make me hate the Internet.

[nisora33]

Can I have my fucking thread back? I think all the cardio-wank is lowering my sperm count. I honestly think my drinking has gone up in direct proportion to the amount of time I've spent on here.

Next time someone accuses me of being an enormous dick-hole on this forum, I'll just reference this thread. And about a hundred others.

-S.

[MAD9692]

Press: 147 X 3, 153 X 1
Bench: no benching since 1st of last year, continued shoulder shit
(beginning to think benching just isn't in the cards for me)
Squat: 290 X 5 (knee shit had been giving me problems for a while, began
a deadlift-only program earlier in the year)
Deadlift: 355 X 4, 380 X 1 (alternate grip, unbelted, very high-hipped,
almost an SLDL--form had shifted without my even realizing it, though comments from PMDL coupled with seeing how other really strong guys pull has me wanting to pull this way, with some deliberate spinal flexion added from now on)
Hang power clean: 145 X 3 (suck dick at cleans, form always all over the
place, further aggravates the knee shit, too).

Damn Stacey...with the amount of time you spend on the site posting about training and nutrition one would have thought your lifts would have been better. Looks like you need to STFU and just train. Until then I think we can all continue talking about whatever the fuck we want.

[nisora33]

Damn Stacey...with the amount of time you spend on the site posting about training and nutrition one would have thought your lifts would have been better. Looks like you need to STFU and just train. Until then I think we can all continue talking about whatever the fuck we want.

Dude, WTF? Seriously, what just crawled up your ass?!

You can start a pissing contest if you want. Call out my lifts, but it doesn't necessarily say a thing about the quality of my input or insight here at the forums. You know nothing about my training ethic, my athletic history beyond and outside of lifting, the quality of my coaching here at the gym, or the time that I spend learning and trying to do better, which is part of why I post here in the first place.

But hey, nice way to divert attention away from the point I was making, which is that this is basically another derailed thread no longer worth a damn. Way to cop out, brah.

S.

[cjangelo]

Dude, WTF? Seriously, what just crawled up your ass?!

You can start a pissing contest if you want. Call out my lifts, but it doesn't necessarily say a thing about the quality of my input or insight here at the forums. You know nothing about my training ethic, my athletic history beyond and outside of lifting, the quality of my coaching here at the gym, or the time that I spend learning and trying to do better, which is part of why I post here in the first place.

But hey, nice way to divert attention away from the point I was making, which is that this is basically another derailed thread no longer worth a damn. Way to cop out, brah.

S.

Dude, you've gone soft. You are no longer the resident asshole. I am seriously disappointed. You've unwound or something. I used to recognize you as the guy who would throw the first punch at 9pm on a Friday night. No longer. Too bad, we need it around here.

[BruteForce]

Wow..all the xfit mumbo jumbo and treadmill walking have affected this guys thought process. The argument was about me not considering walking a form of cardio. Which you later agreed with. Second I never said that you couldnt gain strength while doing cardio. That would be retarted. What I said was that cardio is not part of the SS novice program so I didnt do it. If you are following a linear progression as outlined in SS for a strength and bodyweight increase then there is no place/need for cardio otherwise I am pretty sure the author would have added it.

I am now on a different program which advocates conditioning work. Please tell me you understand this?

I gotcha, I'm a tard, you are right sir. Please excuse my ignorance.

[nisora33]

Dude, you've gone soft. You are no longer the resident asshole. I am seriously disappointed. You've unwound or something. I used to recognize you as the guy who would throw the first punch at 9pm on a Friday night. No longer. Too bad, we need it around here.

Don't fret, he's still around.

[BruteForce]

Damn Stacey...with the amount of time you spend on the site posting about training and nutrition one would have thought your lifts would have been better. Looks like you need to STFU and just train. Until then I think we can all continue talking about whatever the fuck we want.

Hey dude, you can STFU about Stacey. He's one of the best coaches on this site. You wanna have a stupid ass internet pissing contest go somewhere else. I could post my lifts and show how I lift more than you, but that is useless. Quit being a shithead. Not only could I outlift you, I could also do it with much more intensity at a much faster pace. By the time you get your 5 sets of wtf ever done, I could have my entire upper or lower body worked eating my post workout meal.

[BruteForce]

MAD9692, before you decide to call me full of shit or whatever, realize this. I workout at the gym with stacey, so i can personally vouch for his training effectiveness as well as he can vouch for my training intensity, pace, and the amounts that I lift.

[cjangelo]

Don't fret, he's still around.

That's reassuring. If you ever leave your little piss-ant town and come to NYC you can confirm that us all.


MAD9692, before you decide to call me full of shit or whatever, realize this.

Fuck him. Forget about him.

[BruteForce]

Fuck him. Forget about him.

np, will do.

[Chewie_jrc]

Regarding weight gain while lifting whether muscle or fat effects your organs. if normal you is 150 and you add 50 lbs it stresses your organs. they gotta work harder with the added weight.

Stresses the organs in what sense? I'm pretty sure your organs will adapt to your training like your muscles, connective tissue, etc does.

[BruteForce]

Stresses the organs in what sense? I'm pretty sure your organs will adapt to your training like your muscles, connective tissue, etc does.

some of the accumulated bodyfat is stored around your organs. Increased bodymass requires increased vascular capacity. If you don't increase your cardio capacity in conjunction with bodyweight.......

[Chewie_jrc]

some of the accumulated bodyfat is stored around your organs. Increased bodymass requires increased vascular capacity. If you don't increase your cardio capacity in conjunction with bodyweight.......

....a ninja will stab you? You will Xplode from the lack of Metkon? What will happen?

[TrackJunkie]

Your body adapts to fit the stresses imposed on it by its new environment, which now includes 50 more lbs and a staredown with mean old mr gravity a few times a week?

[BruteForce]

Put it this way. If you have a performance vehicle that you intend to modify, what are you going to do first? Do you add 200hp and leave the suspension and transmission alone? Are you going to leave the stock tires on it?

If you add 50 lbs of solid mass and increase your lifts (add proverbial horsepower) but you leave your cardiovascular conditioning alone(suspension and tires), don't you think you would start to feel increased aches and pains and see a marked lack of stamina on anything outside of your worksets you've adapted too?

[TrackJunkie]

Do today's performance enhancing vehicles adapt to the stresses you place on them? I wouldn't guess that upgrading a car's horsepower (increasing the basic lifts) would cause the suspension and tires (VO2 max) to get upgraded as well, but they make some pretty cool cars these days! They're almost as advanced as living things in some ways.

[BruteForce]

Do today's performance enhancing vehicles adapt to the stresses you place on them? I wouldn't guess that upgrading a car's horsepower (increasing the basic lifts) would cause the suspension and tires (VO2 max) to get upgraded as well, but they make some pretty cool cars these days! They're almost as advanced as living things in some ways.

lol, i get your point. I'm just trying to say that I think everyone would be more effective in their lifts if they increased their cardio in proportion to their weight gain, for health's sake more than anything. I certainly couldn't hammer out my workouts with max intensity if I didnt do some cardio training, but thats just me.

But it's also how fast you add said weight. If you add it in 3 months or so, it would be harder on your body than if you added it over 6 months or a year.

[TrackJunkie]

Yeah, I think I've read some powerlifter blogging about how a bit of cardio helped him recover between lifts at a meet he went to.

I was just starting to write up an argument about functional threshhold power, and how it's unreasonable to expect it to increase in proportion with weight increases, and then I looked at some numbers and realized it was entirely reasonable.

[BruteForce]

Well, back to Stacey's argument:

EAT YOUR FOOD LIKE MEN YOU BUNCH O' PUSSY'S!!!!! IF YOU WANNA GROW, YOU GOTTA EAT, DAMNITOL!!!!(From the makers of Fuckitol, the one and only cure for giving a shit.)

[MAD9692]

some of the accumulated bodyfat is stored around your organs. Increased bodymass requires increased vascular capacity. If you don't increase your cardio capacity in conjunction with bodyweight.......


Put it this way. If you have a performance vehicle that you intend to modify, what are you going to do first? Do you add 200hp and leave the suspension and transmission alone? Are you going to leave the stock tires on it?

If you add 50 lbs of solid mass and increase your lifts (add proverbial horsepower) but you leave your cardiovascular conditioning alone(suspension and tires), don't you think you would start to feel increased aches and pains and see a marked lack of stamina on anything outside of your worksets you've adapted too?

Silly Bullshit

[TrackJunkie]

More important than that, is if you want to have the energy to make it through the workout, you need to consume energy. Even more importantly, if you want to recover from your workout, you need to consume energy. The biology of where that energy comes from is a topic for someone who's studied it. Whether it's from fat or consumed food, I've got no clue.

[TomC]

I'm just trying to say that I think everyone would be more effective in their lifts if they increased their cardio in proportion to their weight gain.

If Andy Bolton upped his 5K time, would he then suddenly be able to pull 1,075 off the floor? Here's the unfortunate truth: outside of some minimal amount of cardiovascular fitness required for the demands of multi-rep sets, increasing your endurance base will probably not do anything to help your lifts. It might help you look better and may have other benefits, but running too much is much more likely to hurt your progress on squats than help.

[BigJavs]

If Andy Bolton upped his 5K time, would he then suddenly be able to pull 1,075 off the floor? Here's the unfortunate truth: outside of some minimal amount of cardiovascular fitness required for the demands of multi-rep sets, increasing your endurance base will probably not do anything to help your lifts. It might help you look better and may have other benefits, but running too much is much more likely to hurt your progress on squats than help.

This.

end thread.

[Rorschach]

That depends on your goals. If it's to set a new world record, then sure, skip anything that doesn't directly help that goal.
If, like myself, it's to become big, strong and healthy, there's a place for some cardio.

[BruteForce]

Damn fellas, I'm not talking track running here. Walking, at a decent pace, on a decent incline, with your heart rate at 140 or so, while sipping on gatorade and some amino's.

[Chewie_jrc]

Put it this way. If you have a performance vehicle that you intend to modify, what are you going to do first? Do you add 200hp and leave the suspension and transmission alone? Are you going to leave the stock tires on it?

If you add 50 lbs of solid mass and increase your lifts (add proverbial horsepower) but you leave your cardiovascular conditioning alone(suspension and tires), don't you think you would start to feel increased aches and pains and see a marked lack of stamina on anything outside of your worksets you've adapted too?

Oh okay, so like a performance vehicle, I had also better change my oil every 3000 miles (ensure I'm hydrated?) of lifting, rotate my tires evenly (wear my lifting shoes on the opposite feet??), check my spark plugs (can't even think of a worthwhile analogy), and be sure I'm wearing my 5-point racing harness (?!!?). Cool, I'll hit up AutoZone on my way to the gym today.

[BruteForce]

Oh okay, so like a performance vehicle, I had also better change my oil every 3000 miles (ensure I'm hydrated?) of lifting, rotate my tires evenly (wear my lifting shoes on the opposite feet??), check my spark plugs (can't even think of a worthwhile analogy), and be sure I'm wearing my 5-point racing harness (?!!?). Cool, I'll hit up AutoZone on my way to the gym today.

Tire rotation would be switching hands during masturbation. Spark plug change would be changing the batteries in your dildo. the 5 point harness would be the knee wraps, wrist wraps, belt, lifting shoes, and headband you wear to support your 135 lb squat.

[Chewie_jrc]

Tire rotation would be switching hands during masturbation. Spark plug change would be changing the batteries in your dildo. the 5 point harness would be the knee wraps, wrist wraps, belt, lifting shoes, and headband you wear to support your 135 lb squat.

Cool, thanks for taking the time to respond. You really cleared up your analogy. I'll go walk my dog up a hill now to get my squat up to 136. I love Bro-Science!

[BruteForce]

Cool, thanks for taking the time to respond. You really cleared up your analogy. I'll go walk my dog up a hill now to get my squat up to 136. I love Bro-Science!

No problem man. I'm workin on getting my single arm cable tricep kickbacks stronger with that method! I really focus on the twist of the pinky at the contraction of the movement. I'm hopin I can get to 30 lbs for a solid 10. Go Bro Science!!!!!!

[Chewie_jrc]

No problem man. I'm workin on getting my single arm cable tricep kickbacks stronger with that method! I really focus on the twist of the pinky at the contraction of the movement. I'm hopin I can get to 30 lbs for a solid 10. Go Bro Science!!!!!!

Now you lost me. Are you also trying to point out how shitty and Bro-Sounding your analogy was?

[strengthstarter]

First: Wow. This thread is out of hand. It is basically impossible to have a discussion without people throwing all kinds of useless shit around.

Second: I'm pretty sure Rippetoe has said that there is nothing wrong with doing some LSD cardio while on Starting Strength. In fact, the quote I am remembering went something like, "...nothing wrong with getting one the treadmill two or three times a week. Gotta keep the heart strong too..." Anyways, it was something like that.

Now. I'd like to respond to Stacey's initial post, because I think its a worthy dialog, if people can stop being wank-tards for one second.

Stacey, your perspective is coming from being a young skinny underfed and undertrained guy who wanted to get big. Your approach worked for you, and it kind of makes sense that it did. You were undereating, you had relatively low bf%, so you started to eat, and low and behold you got bigger. Makes sense.

I'm coming from the opposite end. I'm a bit older and have frankly been overfed and undertrained for years. I've got a significant gut already, and while my blood work is still ok, its not as good as it has been, and it is clear to any medical professional that I should be dropping fat. Clearly our approaches should be different. Your situation was simpler, because the two corrective actions you needed complimented each other. Eat more, train more. Mine oppose each other. Eat less, train more. It is a trickier situation. It requires some balance. Different people have different approaches. PSMF seems to work for a lot of people, but it is intended to be of short duration. Rip has advocated simply "cleaning up" one's diet a bit, to presumably cut down the calories some. I'm trying to do this by cutting the milk and eating Paleo.

It seems to be gradually working, but I'm not really making gains. And with workouts taking over an hour to complete 4-5 times a week (right now I am doing CF Football), I am starting to wonder if I am overdoing the strength training during a time where I am prevented from eating enough to make gains. Perhaps my time would be better spent focused in other areas until I can start eating closer to a calorie balance for my weight.

[MAD9692]

Second: I'm pretty sure Rippetoe has said that there is nothing wrong with doing some LSD cardio while on Starting Strength. In fact, the quote I am remembering went something like, "...nothing wrong with getting one the treadmill two or three times a week. Gotta keep the heart strong too..." Anyways, it was something like that..

Where has he said this?

[nisora33]

Now. I'd like to respond to Stacey's initial post, because I think its a worthy dialog, if people can stop being wank-tards for one second.

Stacey, your perspective is coming from being a young skinny underfed and undertrained guy who wanted to get big. Your approach worked for you, and it kind of makes sense that it did. You were undereating, you had relatively low bf%, so you started to eat, and low and behold you got bigger. Makes sense.

I'm coming from the opposite end. I'm a bit older and have frankly been overfed and undertrained for years. I've got a significant gut already, and while my blood work is still ok, its not as good as it has been, and it is clear to any medical professional that I should be dropping fat. Clearly our approaches should be different.

This was never in dispute, at least not from my end.

-S.

[BruteForce]

Now you lost me. Are you also trying to point out how shitty and Bro-Sounding your analogy was?

Nope, I thought I would make an over simplified analogy for you guys who can't seem to grasp the whole "low impact" cardio on a regular basis will help increase the strength of your heart in proportion to your increased body mass and demand on said heart due to increased weight load.
O.K., I'm done arguing that point.

Back to stacey's original post. Stacey, you were sharing with me your thoughts on the main reason why people fail in their weight gain goals the other day. Will you share those with the guys here for hopefully a new conversational spark?

[Chewie_jrc]

Look, if you want to do cardio that's cool man, knock yourself out. Hell, if you want to sub out squats for dumbell flyes, you can do that too, I really don't care. Everybody has different goals, etc. The problem I have is when someone comes along with there Bro-Science bullshit and is basically saying you're going to drop dead because you aren't doing any cardio/metKon. Compound the broscience with lame ass analogies instead of facts and it gets pretty irritating. Plenty of us have left cardio behind and just lifte/ate and are doing okay. A few months of it will probably not kill you. I'm just calling him out on his shit.

I have no problem with anybody wanting to focus more on general health and not so much on strength-at-all-costs. I'll probably be there one day too. Let's just leave the silly bullshit at home k?

[Chewie_jrc]

...
Second: I'm pretty sure Rippetoe has said that there is nothing wrong with doing some LSD cardio while on Starting Strength. In fact, the quote I am remembering went something like, "...nothing wrong with getting one the treadmill two or three times a week. Gotta keep the heart strong too..." Anyways, it was something like that.
...


Okay see, there we go again. Nobody will send the Linear Progression death squad to your home if you do cardio. Again, do as you wish as our goals, training history, health concerns, etc are all going to differ by some degree.

I don't remember Rip ever saying you need to do some LSD to "keep your heart strong". If you want to do cardio, fine. Want to lose weight or keep your heart healthy or whatever, that's all cool. If you want to maximize your strength gains then you need to focus on getting as much rest, nutrition, and intensity out of your workouts as possible. Especially as you get deeper into linear progression and every fucking workout is a grueling death match with the barbell.

[BruteForce]

Look, if you want to do cardio that's cool man, knock yourself out. Hell, if you want to sub out squats for dumbell flyes, you can do that too, I really don't care. Everybody has different goals, etc. The problem I have is when someone comes along with there Bro-Science bullshit and is basically saying you're going to drop dead because you aren't doing any cardio/metKon. Compound the broscience with lame ass analogies instead of facts and it gets pretty irritating. Plenty of us have left cardio behind and just lifte/ate and are doing okay. A few months of it will probably not kill you. I'm just calling him out on his shit.

I have no problem with anybody wanting to focus more on general health and not so much on strength-at-all-costs. I'll probably be there one day too. Let's just leave the silly bullshit at home k?

It's not silly bullshit. I lift as hard and heavy as anyone on this board, and am ONLY concerned at this point with adding brute strength to really put on size. What I'm trying to get across is the fact that if you do a few days of cardio per week, you CAN push yourself harder and longer during your workouts, getting better results.

Apparently, your ONLY definition of cardio is a fucking 26K marathon. Are you so scared of dropping 1lb you won't do any cardio? You really think that a few minutes of your heart rate being 140bpm per week is going to halt your weight gain? I.M.H. Fucking Opinion, any responsible weight trainer will keep the strength of his heart and lungs at the same priority as his skeletal muscle tissue and tendon strength.

[Chewie_jrc]

Nope, I thought I would make an over simplified analogy for you guys who can't seem to grasp the whole "low impact" cardio on a regular basis will help increase the strength of your heart in proportion to your increased body mass and demand on said heart due to increased weight load.

Enlighten me on this (without lame ass race-car analogies). So you're saying that your heart will not adapt and get stronger by squatting 300+ lbs but that the only way you can keep it strong is by "low impact cardio/LSD". Am I understanding this correctly (serious question)?

Of course your overall endurance will go down when solely focusing on strength (this is obvious). I'm not saying you can go run the Los Angeles marathon after finishing linear progression. But I really doubt your heart is in danger of "not being strong" because I didn't get my heart rate up via walking my dog up a hill at 4% grade.

[Chewie_jrc]

It's not silly bullshit. I lift as hard and heavy as anyone on this board, and am ONLY concerned at this point with adding brute strength to really put on size. What I'm trying to get across is the fact that if you do a few days of cardio per week, you CAN push yourself harder and longer during your workouts, getting better results.

Apparently, your ONLY definition of cardio is a fucking 26K marathon. Are you so scared of dropping 1lb you won't do any cardio? You really think that a few minutes of your heart rate being 140bpm per week is going to halt your weight gain? I.M.H. Fucking Opinion, any responsible weight trainer will keep the strength of his heart and lungs at the same priority as his skeletal muscle tissue and tendon strength.

First:
I'm not saying you dont' lift hard or that you're not strong. Nor am I questioning your work ethic. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about anyway.

Secondly:
I never said I think cardio is only some superhuman endurance event. I'll concede that low-impact LSD like walking or biking or whatever is cardio. I don't see a problem with that definition.

The Pièce de Résistance:
Now you're talking about my goals or wants vs. yours. Yes, I would like to avoid losing any mass and ensure I keep my strength increasing. It is a top priority in my life and I am willing to let my "cardio" degrade as I pursue this goal. It may not be yours or anybody elses, but it is mine. You may be more concernced with overall fitness/health and I will not contest that or say it is wrong, that is for us to decide as adults. My point is that your heart will not "xplode" nor will your heart be "weak" by not doing dedicated "low impact cardio" for the few months you are optimizing your strength in a linear progression program. It is a blink of an eye in the time you will be training. By establishing a solid foundation of strength and inking the last bit of your novice, you will be aligned for success in pursuing whatever your athletic/personal fitness goals are. That is my point.

Quick aside: That being said, I do go surfing every week and live in a city where I walk around everywhere. Should I cut that out to maximize recovery? Probably, but at this time I will not. I'm still progressing. If I need to, I will cut these things out for a TEMPORARY AMOUNT OF TIME.

Another aside: You pussies that keep bitching because there is discourse going on...shove it. We're here to exchange ideas, not kick each other's ass. Can't handle disagreement and a little name calling? That's fine, but don't whine about to me because I really don't give a shit. It wasn't even that bad, just teasing him a little bit for his excessive BroNess....grow up.

[BruteForce]

Enlighten me on this (without lame ass race-car analogies). So you're saying that your heart will not adapt and get stronger by squatting 300+ lbs but that the only way you can keep it strong is by "low impact cardio/LSD". Am I understanding this correctly (serious question)?

Of course your overall endurance will go down when solely focusing on strength (this is obvious). I'm not saying you can go run the Los Angeles marathon after finishing linear progression. But I really doubt your heart is in danger of "not being strong" because I didn't get my heart rate up via walking my dog up a hill at 4% grade.


I'll put it this way, I can squat 315 all the way into the hole and out for a solid set of 12+, and there is absolutely no way i could be doing that if it weren't for some consistent cardio training. I understand that your training goals are most likely vastly different than mine, but it doesn't change the fact that you would be able to train harder and longer if you did some low impact cardio.

Can you personally walk 3 flights of stairs without breathing out of your mouth?

EDIT: After reading your post, i saw you said you surf every week, and walk the beach. That is all im talking about. That is all the cardio you need. I was under the impression you didnt do anything exercise wise outside of SS. I don't think you should ever stop surfing or walking the beach, if anything those things will aid in your recovery by increasing your mood! I wish like hell I had a beach to walk every day!

[MAD9692]

I'll put it this way, I can squat 315 all the way into the hole and out for a solid set of 12+, and there is absolutely no way i could be doing that if it weren't for some consistent cardio training. I!


Are you actually saying that the only reason that you have the stamina to do sets of 12 is because you do cardio? Did I read that right? Wow.

Silly Bullshit

[BruteForce]

Are you actually saying that the only reason that you have the stamina to do sets of 12 is because you do cardio? Did I read that right? Wow.

Silly Bullshit

Should've been slightly broader with that statement. There's no way I could complete my training program, at the pace I maintain, with the weights that I use, without consistent cardio training of some kind, whether that be on a treadmill, or sparring jiu jitsu, or sparring thai boxing.

[MAD9692]

There's no way I could complete my training program, at the pace I maintain, with the weights that I use, without consistent cardio training of some kind, whether that be on a treadmill, or sparring jiu jitsu, or sparring thai boxing.

And you don't think that the actual training program, at the pace you maintain, is in itself providing you with the stamina you need to make it through your training? And it is only because of the additional cardio that you employ that is making your weight training program possible?
Is this really what you are saying?

[PMDL]

It's not silly bullshit. I lift as hard and heavy as anyone on this board, and am ONLY concerned at this point with adding brute strength to really put on size. What I'm trying to get across is the fact that if you do a few days of cardio per week, you CAN push yourself harder and longer during your workouts, getting better results.

Apparently, your ONLY definition of cardio is a fucking 26K marathon. Are you so scared of dropping 1lb you won't do any cardio? You really think that a few minutes of your heart rate being 140bpm per week is going to halt your weight gain? I.M.H. Fucking Opinion, any responsible weight trainer will keep the strength of his heart and lungs at the same priority as his skeletal muscle tissue and tendon strength.

I actually agree with this strongly.

I feel a lot better when I add in a few days of cardio, even if it's just a 40 minute walk around town. Adding 2-3 20-30 minute sessions of cycling each week is good when I remember to do it; right now I'm busy trying to adapt to strength workload so it's been getting the short end, but I'll add it in again when I get to a point that I can handle it.

Not only do I feel like I recover better, but I also have more stamina in the gym and just feel better in general.

I can't maintain 200+ lbs of BW when I do that, but at this point I don't want to be any heavier than I am, so I don't care.

[BruteForce]

And you don't think that the actual training program, at the pace you maintain, is in itself providing you with the stamina you need to make it through your training? And it is only because of the additional cardio that you employ that is making your weight training program possible?
Is this really what you are saying?

Yes, and I say this because when I first started the program, You couldn't get me near a piece of cardio equipment, I absolutely refused. But I found that as I began to grow considerably stronger in all my movements, I couldn't maintain the pace that I started out with, which is the pace I have to maintain to get the workout done in under an hour. When I added some cardio into the mix, I found that I continued to grow stronger as well as continue to add some pounds, while still being able to maintain the needed pacing.

[MAD9692]

I can't maintain 200+ lbs of BW when I do that, but at this point I don't want to be any heavier than I am, so I don't care.

I agree and I am currently doing something similiar. (5/3/1 BBB) However when I was doing SS to gain weight and following linear progression, I couldnt imagine why I would add any cardio to the program.


Yes, and I say this because when I first started the program, You couldn't get me near a piece of cardio equipment, I absolutely refused. But I found that as I began to grow considerably stronger in all my movements, I couldn't maintain the pace that I started out with, which is the pace I have to maintain to get the workout done in under an hour. When I added some cardio into the mix, I found that I continued to grow stronger as well as continue to add some pounds, while still being able to maintain the needed pacing.

There was never a point that I was so winded after a SS workout that I thought I should be doing cardio. I always finished a workout thinking -fuck that was heavy.
I wouldnt have been able to hit 220lbs if I added any cardio and I also wouldn't have been doing the program if I added cardio.

[Chewie_jrc]

MAD makes some good points. It's important to distinguish between saying "never do any cardio" and "you must do cardio or you will not progress on a strength program". This goes double for progressing linearly on SS.

In fairness, it seems that bruteforce has time constraints that forced him to get in and out of the gym quickly. That's a specific sort of dilemma, and maybe the cardio was necessary for your particular situation. I don't know though, so I won't comment. The ideal and most effective situation (as relayed to us in Rip's texts/teachings), is to increase the rest between work sets as necessary. This has been the clinical experience of the lifters adhering to Rip's program and training philosophies. Yeah, sometimes you'll be resting 8 minutes or so in between sets to be able to lift the required weight. And yes, it takes a lotta time in the gym. This becomes necessary as you continue to advance through your linear progression. You can start adding LSD or anything else as you see fit, but realize you are no longer doing the program, and realize you are probably not maximizing your linear gains. You may be cool with that as your goals may be different.

I bring these points up not to attack brute's or any one else's training philosophies or any desire for health or cardio work. Just keeping you honest and from putting word's in Rip's mouth. The whole you MUST do cardio to progress with strength seems kinda silly BS-ish and Brosciencey....something we can all do without.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and to get back to Stacey's original point. Eat lotsa food or whatever.

[BruteForce]

Definitely not trying to say you can't advance without, just saying I believe you could advance just as fast if not faster, with improved recovery ability. I don't suffer from time restraints in the gym, it's simply a self imposed time limit. The more time I spend in the gym, the longer I have to wait to eat my P.W.O. meal!

[MAD9692]

Definitely not trying to say you can't advance without, just saying I believe you could advance just as fast if not faster, with improved recovery ability. I don't suffer from time restraints in the gym, it's simply a self imposed time limit.

Again, if this was the case I'm sure the author of SS would have added this to the program. Looks like we are going in circles.

[Chewie_jrc]

Definitely not trying to say you can't advance without, just saying I believe you could advance just as fast if not faster, with improved recovery ability. I don't suffer from time restraints in the gym, it's simply a self imposed time limit. The more time I spend in the gym, the longer I have to wait to eat my P.W.O. meal!

So it seems you have altered one variable (rest intervals in this case due to a self-imposed time constraint) and compensated for that adjustment with an addition of cardio. There is nothing "wrong" with that, and if that works for you cool. That being said, it seems that you might be okay by not stressing about getting to your PWO meal in an hour, increase your rest intervals, and drop the cardio. Not eating for another 20 minutes or whatever will probably not cause your muscles to waste away to nothing. That being said, if you're making progress, more power to you. You can always pull a Gary Gibson and bring a gallon of milk to your workout lol.

[BruteForce]

So it seems you have altered one variable (rest intervals in this case due to a self-imposed time constraint) and compensated for that adjustment with an addition of cardio. There is nothing "wrong" with that, and if that works for you cool. That being said, it seems that you might be okay by not stressing about getting to your PWO meal in an hour, increase your rest intervals, and drop the cardio. Not eating for another 20 minutes or whatever will probably not cause your muscles to waste away to nothing. That being said, if you're making progress, more power to you. You can always pull a Gary Gibson and bring a gallon of milk to your workout lol.

I gag even thinking about drinking milk during a workout, lol. The main reason I want to get done in an hour or less is because even if I eat an hour or 45 mins before my lifting session, I am almost always beginning to be extremely hungry halfway through my workout. I'm going to start combatting this by drinking a protien carb creatine mix(gatorade, protien powder, and a few grams of creatine monohydrate) to combat the hunger.

[PMDL]

You can start adding LSD or anything else as you see fit, but realize you are no longer doing the program


Again, if this was the case I'm sure the author of SS would have added this to the program.

This is an incredible naive and wrong-headed viewpoint.

[Chewie_jrc]

This is an incredible naive and wrong-headed viewpoint.

How? The original SS program does not prescribe any cardio and says it's not necessary. You can throw it in as you wish since to my knowledge there is no law preventing you from doing so. Or are you just trying to stir up some shit?

[bugbomb]

This is an incredible naive and wrong-headed viewpoint.

It may be, but I don't think so. I do not find it unreasonable to believe that the developers of the Starting Strength template, over their decades of observation, concluded that "cardio" did not contribute to the development of strength and size, and therefore did not include it in the program. Had they observed that some "cardio" helped, I think it's reasonable to assume they would have included it. Not wrongheaded at all in my opinion.

Now, whether "SS says" is a reason to believe/do anything is another argument. Maybe that's what you meant.

However, Rip states clearly in many places, including this board, that cardio/metcon should be incorporated only insofar as it supports your non strength/size related goals (like guys in the military, or who are in season for a sport). What seems silly is the claim that adding cardio, without altering other variables, will either a) improve strength/size or b) enable you to improve strength/size.

I'm not doubting Brute's experience, but I suspect there were other variables at play. Better to say "when I added cardio, I felt better in the gym and was able to work harder at my lifts." I'll offer than my experience was the opposite at a certain stage in my linear progression, but I'm about to start including short, intense metcon again... to contribute to a non strength/size goal.

[PMDL]

Holy shit.

Are you jerks going out of your way to knock the Stupid Meter off the fucking charts or what?

[MAD9692]

This is an incredible naive and wrong-headed viewpoint.

How so?


Now, whether "SS says" is a reason to believe/do anything is another argument. Maybe that's what you meant.


I am guessing that this is what he meant.

[MAD9692]

Holy shit.

Are you jerks going out of your way to knock the Stupid Meter off the fucking charts or what?

I am now guessing that he is drunk.

[BruteForce]

Holy shit.

Are you jerks going out of your way to knock the Stupid Meter off the fucking charts or what?

bugbomb, chewie, and mad, please pay attention. PMDL and I are referring to your apparent lack of ability for abstract, individualized thought. You apparently believe that if you deviate one fucking inch from the program that you will nullify and reverse all gains and be shunned by the training world because you added cardio to the program.

[bugbomb]

bugbomb, chewie, and mad, please pay attention. PMDL and I are referring to your apparent lack of ability for abstract, individualized thought. You apparently believe that if you deviate one fucking inch from the program that you will nullify and reverse all gains and be shunned by the training world because you added cardio to the program.

I appreciate your careful reading, since that is obviously exactly what I meant. Thanks for clarifying my point for me.

Actually, I was pretty careful to NOT say that cardio would kill strength gains. I'm waiting for something other than "look what worked for me" before I'd accept the idea that something like low intensity, steady state cardio INCREASES the body's ability to increase strength, which appears to be your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm open to listening to and learning from your experience. It just doesn't line up with the experiences and observations.

I'd much sooner accept that "in the presence of adequate recovery/food, some low intensity cardio won't hurt your lifting." But you're saying it helped, and you're talking to people who for the most part do 5s and 3s. Educate me if you can, but please don't pretend that you're providing us with any data, evidence or argument here.

[bugbomb]

By the way, thanks for asking Rip. I mean that - I am interested to see his response (if he gives a complete one), but didn't want to be a snot.

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15158

[nisora33]

Fellas, couldn't this cardio issue just be a case of YMMV?

-S.

[BruteForce]

I appreciate your careful reading, since that is obviously exactly what I meant. Thanks for clarifying my point for me.

Actually, I was pretty careful to NOT say that cardio would kill strength gains. I'm waiting for something other than "look what worked for me" before I'd accept the idea that something like low intensity, steady state cardio INCREASES the body's ability to increase strength, which appears to be your argument. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm open to listening to and learning from your experience. It just doesn't line up with the experiences and observations.

I'd much sooner accept that "in the presence of adequate recovery/food, some low intensity cardio won't hurt your lifting." But you're saying it helped, and you're talking to people who for the most part do 5s and 3s. Educate me if you can, but please don't pretend that you're providing us with any data, evidence or argument here.

Cardio wouldn't directly increase strength itself, it would increase your bodies repair abilities as well as your recovery abilities during your sets and after.

But you are exactly right in that you need adequate nutrition. If you aren't in enough of a surplus then you certainly shouldn't do it. But you also have to consider your daily activities outside of the gym. If you're a fairly active person with a somewhat physical job, than your job could serve as your low intensity cardio.

It's also a good point that if your only concern for the foreseeable future is 5's and 3's with long breaks between sets, and purely for maximal bodyweight gain percentages be damned, then cardio for you may be a nonfactor.

I think we all understand each other's arguments, so lets just let it be an individual thing. Didn't mean to lash out at you guys, it just seemed like you were extremely hung up on zero deviation from SS, even in the face of a logical addition.

[bugbomb]

Fair enough.

[PVC]

Damn fellas, I'm not talking track running here. Walking, at a decent pace, on a decent incline, with your heart rate at 140 or so, while sipping on gatorade and some amino's.

Surely you're not trying to suggest that walking will increase your cardiovascular capacity by any reasonable amount.

[MAD9692]

Damn BF, I can't believe you asked the old man. What did you think he was going to say? We have been trying to tell you this for the past 14 pages. Again, cardio or whatever is fine, however it has no place for someone that is trying to gain weight/strength while following linear progression as described in SS.

[Chewie_jrc]

Well this thread was fun. I guess you didn't read my 10 fucking posts spelling out that I don't care if you change/deviate from SS. Again, your goals are your goals, do what you like man. You guys are a riot. I am proud of most of the forum for self-policing up the Bro-Science though.

EDIT: Just saw he asked Rip....wow.

[Kyle Aaron]

Surely you're not trying to suggest that walking will increase your cardiovascular capacity by any reasonable amount.
Depends where you're starting from.

But the quoted post was about having your heart rate at around 140bpm. If you do that for 15+ minutes, whether it's from walking, walking on an incline, running, whatever - you will increase your cardiovascular fitness.

Whether you really need to is another matter. I would suggest that if you sweat walking fifteen minutes to the train station you probably should be walking to it, but that unless you are living in east Africa you have no need to ever run more than 5 miles.

Oh, and Lyle M. has a recent article (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/active-versus-passive-recovery.html) that some might find relevant to this thread and interesting, talking about active and passive recovery.

[BruteForce]

Anyone catch the thread on low intensity cardio in Rip's Forum?

[MAD9692]

Anyone catch the thread on low intensity cardio in Rip's Forum?

The one where you got called out for being a moron?

[msingh]

I haven't read the thread and i'm not interested in the broscience from nisora et al but...

all the guys who do extremely well on the program start off as lean fit guys (of the crossfit mould). justin lascek, kittensmash, gary gibbs, AC, etc. the guys pressing 100kg (coldfire), the dell whitney guy squatting 500lb, these are all fit strong guys. and they're the ones you wanna be like, not the 300lb+ fat guys who lose their breath getting out of the car to kfc.

[BruteForce]

If you check the latest responses, I'm not the only one on here who figured out that cardio helps with muscular recovery and endurance during workouts.

OF COURSE IF YOU ARE 150-170 SOAKING WET, JUST BEGINNING SS, YOU DON'T NEED ANY CARDIO. BUT IF YOU ARE 200+ GETTING CLOSE TO THE END OF YOUR LINEAR PROGRESSION, IT'S A DIFFERENT STORY. I'M COMING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A 225LB GUY, NOT FROM A BEANPOLE P.O.V.

[BruteForce]

I haven't read the thread and i'm not interested in the broscience from nisora et al but...

all the guys who do extremely well on the program start off as lean fit guys (of the crossfit mould). justin lascek, kittensmash, gary gibbs, AC, etc. the guys pressing 100kg (coldfire), the dell whitney guy squatting 500lb, these are all fit strong guys. and they're the ones you wanna be like, not the 300lb+ fat guys who lose their breath getting out of the car to kfc.

I don't know about all that crap, Msingh. This program is tailored for the underfed, underweight guys, who need to get their BW up in a hurry.

Your statement is a sweeping generalization that you are most likely going to get flamed into a crisp for.

brute

[misspelledgeoff]

O look! The Village Idiot is back.


I haven't read the thread and i'm not interested in the broscience from nisora et al but...

all the guys who do extremely well on the program start off as lean fit guys (of the crossfit mould). justin lascek, kittensmash, gary gibbs, AC, etc. the guys pressing 100kg (coldfire), the dell whitney guy squatting 500lb, these are all fit strong guys. and they're the ones you wanna be like, not the 300lb+ fat guys who lose their breath getting out of the car to kfc.

[BruteForce]

I haven't read the thread and i'm not interested in the broscience from nisora et al but...

all the guys who do extremely well on the program start off as lean fit guys (of the crossfit mould). justin lascek, kittensmash, gary gibbs, AC, etc. the guys pressing 100kg (coldfire), the dell whitney guy squatting 500lb, these are all fit strong guys. and they're the ones you wanna be like, not the 300lb+ fat guys who lose their breath getting out of the car to kfc.

This is called STARTING Strength for a reason. Tell Gary he started out large, lean, and strong and he will cuss you out.

Your posts sound like you are trying to bitch out of doing the program. You can't get a more basic, effective starting program than this one. Stop complaining about your shortcomings and fix them!

[MAD9692]

If you check the latest responses, I'm not the only one on here who figured out that cardio helps with muscular recovery and endurance during workouts..

No one said it didnt. We said that there was no place for it when trying to gain weight using linear progression. This isnt that hard.


OF COURSE IF YOU ARE 150-170 SOAKING WET, JUST BEGINNING SS, YOU DON'T NEED ANY CARDIO.

This was the point that you have been arguing against the whole time. Fuck.

[msingh]

O look! The Village Idiot is back.

i've seen your squat videos, your gut is hugeeeeeeeeeeee bro. well done!!!


This is called STARTING Strength for a reason. Tell Gary he started out large, lean, and strong and he will cuss you out.
Started off large? no, he's still skinny. But certainly fit and lean.


Your posts sound like you are trying to bitch out of doing the program. You can't get a more basic, effective starting program than this one. Stop complaining about your shortcomings and fix them!
Nothing to do with me my man. Guys excelling at starting strength, the very best specimen who have done the program -- most of them begin as fit lean guys. All of the ones i've mentioned fit this template. That's enough proof for me that being lean and fit helps you go further along ultimately in the pursuit of strength. it's not impressive that a guy almost weighing 300lb squats 350lb. not to me anyway.

the guy who deadlifts 3x his bodyweight and argued endlessly on the throwaway board is another example of a lean fit guy who is very strong.

[BruteForce]

This was the point that you have been arguing against the whole time. Fuck.

If you think that, than you misunderstood me from the beginning. The whole thing started when you were complaining you couldn't walk a flight of stairs at 220lbs. I said I noticed a lot of guys complain about being out of breath doing anything at that weight, and i proceeded to say that if those guys would throw in some cardio, perhaps they wouldn't feel that way.

I apologize, I figured everyone would understand I was talking about the guys towards the end of their linear progression with excess bf beginning to build. No one on this board, including myself, would advocate an SS beginner doing cardio, it would be completely counterproductive.

Lets hang the argument up now. Everyone understands each other's points.

brute

[BruteForce]

Msingh what is your point then? You think the program is ineffective? If you keep saying the guys who excel are strong and lean. If you are weak and skinny fat, then either do the program to fix it or go pickup golfing as a hobby.

stop trolling and stirring shit.

[msingh]

Msingh what is your point then? You think the program is ineffective? If you keep saying the guys who excel are strong and lean. If you are weak and skinny fat, then either do the program to fix it or go pickup golfing as a hobby.

stop trolling and stirring shit.

whaaaat? stop being so sensitive please! linear progression does not need to be defended. not on this forum anyway, we're all believers. That you can incrementally increase the load on a barbell while proportionally increasing your strength requires no justification -- it is a fact accepted by all.

what i am saying is that the guys who do best on this program of linear progression start off as lean fit guys, and continue their linear progression longer and end up STRONG. certainly their state of fitness and leaness does not detract from their ability to put out respectable numbers on the squat. my argument is based on examples of guys that are part of this community who achieve respectable levels of strength and noticing they all start off lean and fit.

[Mr.City]

and so it begins

WEAN AND WIPPED IS THE WAY TO GO, IF TOO FAT TO FIGURE OUT YOUR DIET YOU'RE FUCKED, IT'S OVER GUYS.

[misspelledgeoff]

That's right Brah! And you don't see me whining and crying about it like a little kweer bitch...Do you?

I can always diet to get rid of my gut (though I won't because I don't care). But dieting won't get rid of your pussy.


i've seen your squat videos, your gut is hugeeeeeeeeeeee bro. well done!!!

[Mr.City]

I think the common misconception is that, while on SS, you're on some type of food vacation, shoveling anything that's edible into your piehole. You get to certain weight then the real fun begins as your nutrition becomes a science experiment. How many calories should I eat? how much protein do I need? and so on.

[IWillLiveFreeOrDie]

That's right Brah! And you don't see me whining and crying about it like a little kweer bitch...Do you?

I can always diet to get rid of my gut (though I won't because I don't care). But dieting won't get rid of your pussy.

That's awesome! LOL. :D

[astanto2]

Msingh, You had me at "I'm fat." You had me at "I'm fat." You complete me.

[nisora33]

Screencapped for posterity! Wah wah wah wee!



http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4372923883_6fd4c5147d_o.jpg

[coreJack]

all the guys who do extremely well on the program start off as lean fit guys (of the crossfit mould). justin lascek, kittensmash, gary gibbs, AC, etc. the guys pressing 100kg (coldfire), the dell whitney guy squatting 500lb, these are all fit strong guys. and they're the ones you wanna be like, not the 300lb+ fat guys who lose their breath getting out of the car to kfc.
I don't know all those names, but most of the names I recognize had coaching. Maybe that's the difference? If you're getting good coaching, you have good form, fewer injury setbacks, and fewer deloads. Which means you're consistently able to lift more, which means you can utilize all the calories you shovel into your system.

[Mr.City]

Corejack brings up a good point. Also, I don't think Gary is part of your fit guys doing SS argument. Gary's a skinny fellow who did lots of Russian volume training and forced his body to strong despite his low bodyweight. Coaching is key because good form makes all the difference at those heavier weights. Shitty form fatigues you real good, making you think you've hit the end of linear progression. Case in point, I've done heavy squat while forgetting to keep a hard arch in my back, making that shit really hard. Or I've done some shitty cleans, bouncing the bar too far away from my body, making them so difficult that I overtrained myself in that session trying to muscle the bar into place.

[Nauticus]

Shitty form fatigues you real good, making you think you've hit the end of linear progression. Case in point, I've done heavy squat while forgetting to keep a hard arch in my back, making that shit really hard. Or I've done some shitty cleans, bouncing the bar too far away from my body, making them so difficult that I overtrained myself in that session trying to muscle the bar into place.

Amen on this. Especially arcing. I didn't know until last week that a really conscious effort is necessary, or you'll just plop down into the hole like a gummy worm

[Chewie_jrc]

We brought Msingh out of the hiding! I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed.

The Troll Insurgency continues gentlemen....let's be vigilant and endure. It's going to be rough, I know. What with the addition of LondonTiger and a few others, but I know we can do it.

[fatweakguy]

Talk about putting on some weight. This is the ultimate website for creative calorie intake.

http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/

[jameson]

Talk about putting on some weight. This is the ultimate website for creative calorie intake.

http://thisiswhyyourefat.com/

What, no recipes?!

[elVarouza]

I've found that if my conditioning is shot then it will be harder for me to recover between heavy squat sets as I'll be out of breath. This usually happens if I take a few weeks layoff (usually for exams) and go back starting medium/heavy. In this case, I find a small amount of extra cardio to be useful for recovery, as it's very difficult to begin another squat set if I'm still out of breath.

However, I have also found that when I'm smarter and start lighter after a layoff and work my way back up the squatting/deadlifting itself will provide enough conditioning such that I'm not out of breath. For example, I recently came back after a layoff and started a bit lighter than I usually do. Now I'm hitting squat PRs, but I'm not completely out of breath between sets since my conditioning has improved due to the linear progression.

Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. I've found that when I'm smart about my linear progression the exercises themselves will give me the conditioning I need, but when I get overzealous it can be problematic.

[jab50]

It is important to note that the stooge in "Supersize Me" was not training at all.

Yeah, I was going to bring this up after reading the OP.

Agree with you, Stacey

[MazdaMatt]

It is important to note that the stooge in "Supersize Me" was not training at all.

I was thinking this, too, when Stacey brought that up. I would LOVE to see a remake of that movie that starts with 150lb 20y/o doing SS.