Bulgarian volume training

[timt]

A recent interview with John Broz has sparked some interesting discussion over at the powerlifting section on the bodybuilding.com board.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121212081

Wanted to get your opinion on this method of training Rip. Seems it goes against a lot of the standard notion of rest times and has you eventually maxing out every day.

[lylemcd]

When the Bulgarian team can pass a drug test, you might care what they do in training. Until that time.....

[timt]

This is about John Broz taking that training and bringing it to America. Nothing to do with drugs at all.

[ZKP]

It has everything to do with drugs......and a genetically narrowed down (and huge) trainee pool, and the practicality of such training when working out isn't your job. Such training is the ticket when you have super genes, various drugs and doc's to monitor their use, and nothing to do but train for two, four hour blocks 6-7 days a week.....Sure, bring it to the US.....I'm sure it'll catch right on....

[Gary Gibson]

It has everything to do with drugs......and a genetically narrowed down (and huge) trainee pool, and the practicality of such training when working out isn't your job. Such training is the ticket when you have super genes, various drugs and doc's to monitor their use, and nothing to do but train for two, four hour blocks 6-7 days a week.....Sure, bring it to the US.....I'm sure it'll catch right on....

Exactly. And this is a good thing.

This isn't for recreational "athletes." This is for competitors who are indeed genetically elite and willing to devote their lives to perfection in their sport.

Bring it on. It will catch on with those serious about winning and with the talent to do it.


P.S. I have an easy life and I tried this stuff years ago and actually got fairly adept at the full versions of the lifts after months of daily practice. I was skinny and weak as hell with no genetic endowment, but I got up to a bodyweight full snatch @ 150 lbs.

[lylemcd]

Google American Bulgarian systems. coaches in this country have tried for years to apply the bulgarian system without drugs. After a few weeks, everyone blows up on it. Even the Bulgarian coaches (and others who use it) will say that it takes a 10 year build up to be able to handle it in full. And they are USING DRUGS.

So no it doesn't matter what he's trying to do. The system is only surivable in teh long-term with drugs.

But wait, I knew I had seen teh name before

Broz apparently sez to the effect of:
"It'll be interesting to see what happens with Avg Broz gym. John Broz has only been coaching for a year, and his athletes aren't part of USAW, so I don't think they're tested. He says he doesn't want his athletes to compete in national competitions because it'll lower their expectations if they win those, since the U.S. is so far behind the rest of the world."

Let me translate that for you: They test in the US and my guys are juiced and couldn't pass. So we won't compete there but I'll make up a bullshit excuse for it instead of copping to it.

But tell you what, don't believe me, what do I know. go try it and let us know what happens. IN 3-4 weeks you'll either be injured, overtrained or both

Good luck with yoru msucles
Lyle

[BruteForce]

A recent interview with John Broz has sparked some interesting discussion over at the powerlifting section on the bodybuilding.com board.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121212081

Wanted to get your opinion on this method of training Rip. Seems it goes against a lot of the standard notion of rest times and has you eventually maxing out every day.

Do you honestly believe, your muscles, joints, and ligaments, can even come close to recovering from this? We wont' even discuss CNS recovery.

[ZKP]

We're all making points that aren't exactly contradictory but are aimed as such..... The fact is, without super genes, good luck. If that's you you'd know it already. With drugs more of us could do it. As far as drugs go the rules say no. If you think it's a stupid rule, ok....but those are the rules. If you want to break the rule and try to get away with it, ok............but that's what it is. Or start your own Fed......The thing is that people have a burning desire to achieve their goals at all costs. Imagination, justification, and excuses over power honesty and reason. More is not always better, for us non superhero types

[Gary Gibson]

Your points and concerns are all valid, but I'm discovering that there is little that a few thousand mg of ibuprofen and a gallon and a half of whole milk each day won't cure.

[Shaf]

The stupid in this forum has went from ankle to knee to hip deep in a matter of weeks.

It's remarkable enough to comment on.

[Gary Gibson]

The stupid in this forum has went from ankle to knee to hip deep in a matter of weeks.

It's remarkable enough to comment on.

Shaf, please clarify. (How are things on IGX? Have you guys linked to any of my threads? Have I been called a "dumb nigger" yet? It's bound to happen.)

Just worried that I'm raising the level of stupid. Please let us know where we err.

[Shaf]

Shall I discuss? This was more about the original poster's suggestion that John Broz is bringing Bulgarian style training to the masses and to the riduculous question in Rip's forum about bodyfat = strength (and while there's certainly a coorelation between bodyweight and strength, all things being equal, a guy who gains 5#s of LBM and 5#s of fat is going to be better off and stronger than a guy who gains 20# of fat...personal experience here, by the way)

There's a dearth of real-world knowledge regarding anabolics on this forum, including how widespread their usage actually is, despite "70s Big" actually putting down some text on the topic, specifically, how they just make training bigger. I can't really fault many of the communities members, they seem to have been brainwashed about the evils of performance enhancing drugs by the mainstream media and haven't steeped themselves into the more esoteric bits.

My opinion mirrors that of Lyle's. While I am, admittedly, a fan of higher volumes and frequencies of training, I've never actually approached anything that looks like Bulgarian training.

1000mg of ibuprofen and all the milk I could drink could never solve it. Once I hit that patch of black ice (racist, I know) it was weeks, sometimes months of foundering and recovering before I reached previous marks. It's better to not hit that point than to go into it praying John Broz is right.

I sometimes wonder if the "nigger" paradigm is changing. I try to keep it off the P&B, but it's rampant on IGx, probably because there are no genuine racists there, despite the trappings of foulmouthed ignorance the community wears with pride.

As of yet, I've seen nothing commenting on anything you say, Gary, and there are always bigger fish to catch, since people saying stupid things online is a pandemic.

[PMDL]

That's borderlining on a breach of hater-amnesty, almost

[Gary Gibson]

Shall I discuss? This was more about the original poster's suggestion that John Broz is bringing Bulgarian style training to the masses and to the riduculous question in Rip's forum about bodyfat = strength (and while there's certainly a coorelation between bodyweight and strength, all things being equal, a guy who gains 5#s of LBM and 5#s of fat is going to be better off and stronger than a guy who gains 20# of fat...personal experience here, by the way)

There's a dearth of real-world knowledge regarding anabolics on this forum, including how widespread their usage actually is, despite "70s Big" actually putting down some text on the topic, specifically, how they just make training bigger. I can't really fault many of the communities members, they seem to have been brainwashed about the evils of performance enhancing drugs by the mainstream media and haven't steeped themselves into the more esoteric bits.

My opinion mirrors that of Lyle's. While I am, admittedly, a fan of higher volumes and frequencies of training, I've never actually approached anything that looks like Bulgarian training.

1000mg of ibuprofen and all the milk I could drink could never solve it. Once I hit that patch of black ice (racist, I know) it was weeks, sometimes months of foundering and recovering before I reached previous marks. It's better to not hit that point than to go into it praying John Broz is right.

I sometimes wonder if the "nigger" paradigm is changing. I try to keep it off the P&B, but it's rampant on IGx, probably because there are no genuine racists there, despite the trappings of foulmouthed ignorance the community wears with pride.

As of yet, I've seen nothing commenting on anything you say, Gary, and there are always bigger fish to catch, since people saying stupid things online is a pandemic.

Cool.

[cycomiko]

I stand here and then shaf comes in and makes the stupid rise up over my knees

[timt]

Let me remind you that this system is adaptive. You don't jump in doing 14 workouts a week, you would start with 3 and then over many months as your body adapts to the volume, increase the number of sessions. Once at the desired number of session, you increase the intensity and finally you add extra volume to each session. It's all about adaptation. Sure steroids will increase this process so it occurs over a much shorter period of time, however one concern that John Broz has with steroid usage is that although you muscles recover faster and are ready to lift heavy for the next session, your ligaments and joints are not. So you'll use a max that your muscles are ready for but the rest of your body isn't ready for and end up injuring yourself.

Quiet a few guys have been trying this method and many that are not genetically gifted like Johns star pupils are making great progress and their body's are adapting to the workload. This is what your body is designed to do, adapt to survive. I think Rippetoe should think about interviewing Broz for his next video, it would be quiet interesting.

[Shaf]

Yeah, cycomiko. No way around that one, is there.

timt...just for reference, what's your training background? Are you a big, strong guy..been lifting and competing for years, or what? Are you following Broz' workout suggestions?

[cjangelo]

I'm not sure why the N-word is being thrown around, and I don't want to know.

I think there's still insight on the boards, you just have to shift through a lot more shit to find it. I wish the guys from 70sbig would post more.

[Shaf]

That was a bit of an aside between Gary and I. A forum I contribute significantly throws that word around quite a bit, depsite there being really no real racism present.

Is it then, becoming socially acceptable to use that word in casual conversation? Is the definition of the word evolving away from being a strongly derogatory term for a person of color and to being just a strongly derogative "catch all" term.

Does the persistent use of that phrase in urban music water down the derogatory connoctations? If I see a someone and greet them with "my nigga!" is that racist for simply using that word because I'm white? I'm not using it in any sort of negative fashion in this case. If Gary does the same, does it elicit the same reaction in onlookers?

I'm sure a discussion of race is beyond the scope of this conversation and probably not necessarily worthwhile unless it's between two individuals coming to an understanding between themselves.

[Gary Gibson]

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?p=101960#post101960

[Raskolnikov]

I don't know how in the hell this thread got so horribly off-track, or why there's been such a knee-jerk reaction to the topic, but on a serious note:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most successful o-lifting programs (e.g., China) use a similar high frequency approach? I was under the impression that the Chinese use a 2 times a day, 6 days a week training schedule.

I think if you are going to do something like this you must definitely build up to it. And progression certainly wont be linear (i.e., not the best approach for a novice). Seems like Broz's approach relies on autoregulation: work up to that day's max (which might be considerably under your true max) and then do a few backoff sets. Otherwise, drugs or not, I imagine you would have to have some built-in fluctuation of intensity.

[timt]

I think if you are going to do something like this you must definitely build up to it. And progression certainly wont be linear (i.e., not the best approach for a novice). Seems like Broz's approach relies on autoregulation: work up to that day's max (which might be considerably under your true max) and then do a few backoff sets. Otherwise, drugs or not, I imagine you would have to have some built-in fluctuation of intensity.

That's the idea, it's defiantly not a percentage based way of training. Every workout has it's own max which comes in waves. Some days you'll be "overtrained" and your max might drop 20kg. But if you keep at it gradually on those good days your max will beat your previous highest max. Doing it this way also lets your body get used to the feel of maximum weights all the time so you get used to the point just before technique breaks down.

And another poster asked about my training background, I've been training 2-3 years now. I started with SS (hence why i'm posting this here) and made excellent gains, i then went on to do some very successful 5x5 cycles. Afterwards I wanted to try shock my body into something different so I tried 5/3/1 which increased my overall cardiovascular fitness due to the high rep type body-building supplementary exercises. Percentage based programs have stopped working for me and i can see their inherit weaknesses so i looked elsewhere, the only two training methodologies i could find that would suit my needs is Broz Bulgarian style or Westside. To me the theories behind what Broz is saying makes a lot of sense and both methods have produced some amazing athletes so I'm sticking with his program for now (I train at home so Westside would be difficult). I've been on the program for a couple of months and it's true, your body will adapt, you will feel like shit a lot of times but you have to man up and do it, it's amazing what humans can accomplish when they put their minds to it. I'm up to 6 workouts a week (taking Sunday off), due to time constraints i only plan to do 1 workout every day and to make up for a lack of morning workout, I just increase the volume.

[Gary Gibson]

Raskolnikov and timt, good points.

I just wanted to add that the full lifts are so incredibly skill-based that constant practice only makes sense. The idea is to use weights heavy enough to make it challenging and require lots of attention to detail, but not heavy enough to destroy you. If you want to get good at something, do you do it once per week, or several times per week with really bad form due to fatigue, or "as often as possible while remaining fresh as possible"? I'd go with the last one.

I'm weak and my current numbers aren't anything to write home about and I was even weaker years ago when I dedicated myself to practicing the classic lifts every day several times daily...but I did eventually get my full lifts to outstrip my power versions by quite a few pounds. At a bodyweight of 150 and with a SQ ~245 I managed to full snatch 150 and full clean 200 or so when my best power snatch was around 115 and my best power clean was around 165. Now I'm 30 lbs heavier and my squat is almost 200 lbs more and I can power snatch and clean my old best weights from the full versions of the lifts. I'm looking forward to finding out what I could lift with lots of practice.

[TomC]

From John Broz in that bb.com linked forum topic:



Why max on deadlifts only 2-3x a year?
Body positions are CRUCIAL to weightlifting success. max deads force you to pull shoulders back too early, round your back, and lose the proper positions needed for the second pull in the lifts. This will only push progress back along with the simple fact that slow movements do not help any athlete in any sport. "The fastest athlete is the greatest athlete"

I added the emphasis. I would bet that if pressed, he would have a tough time justifying that statement.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't know about the slow lifts comment (what are squats?), but I think he has a point vis-a-vis deadlifts and shoulder/back positioning. In my very, very limited experience, a max deadlift is a very different animal in terms of positioning than a max clean. I can totally see how strength in the former might not correlate perfectly with strength in the latter.

[jacob cloud]

...depsite there being really no real racism present.

Is it then, becoming socially acceptable to use that word in casual conversation?...


This is retarded. A bunch of white guys jerking each other off on a forum and typing the word repeatedly is not casual conversation. I am on a bunch of other forums and have just as much of a problem with it there as I do here. The simple fact is that by using the word repeatedly, they are in fact showing off racism, just hidden behind their keyboards.

[Gary Gibson]

I don't know about the slow lifts comment (what are squats?), but I think he has a point vis-a-vis deadlifts and shoulder/back positioning. In my very, very limited experience, a max deadlift is a very different animal in terms of positioning than a max clean. I can totally see how strength in the former might not correlate perfectly with strength in the latter.

Disclaimer: I am not and never will be the athlete that these guys are.

But.

Why would would doing the occasional set of five--literally once every week or two--completely screw up the patterns for an entirely different lift that occurs at very different speeds?

I've read very credible arguments that suggest the power versions of the lifts can be the most detrimental to learning the full versions because they are so close to what you do in the full versions. The power versions teach you to pull the bar as high as possible instead of teaching the really tricky part of lifting even more weight and pulling yourself under it while it's flying through the air.

I'm not even saying that WL should deadlift. I'm just wondering about this whole "screwing up the necessary patterns" thing in the deadlift's case when there are much more egregious offenders.

http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles008.html
http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles009.html

Training to pull the weight as high as possible (clean pulls, snatch pulls) seems to be the biggest mistake a lifter can make as far as ingraining bad habits. The article doesn't mention power cleans and snatches (in which the weight is actually pulled high and then caught), but I think we can safely infer their inclusion.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't know what to tell you, Gary. I'd argue that the problem sort of solves itself when the weight gets heavy enough -- you simply can't pull a heavy clean "too high." You hit full extension and pull under asap. I've watched o-lifters work up in weight while doing power cleans and the catch gets progressively lower. And during light full cleans many tend to catch the weight high and drop into a full squat. The key, however, is that the positioning (2nd pull) between the two is the same (as it is, theoretically, with clean and high pulls). A heavy deadlift is quite different, in my experience. I don't know if Broz is right when he argues that it will completely screw things up, but I see where he's coming from.

Anyways, I'm just thinking out loud based on my (very limited) personal experience and what I've read/seen of others much more experienced.

[Gary Gibson]

I don't know what to tell you, Gary. I'd argue that the problem sort of solves itself when the weight gets heavy enough -- you simply can't pull a heavy clean "too high." You hit full extension and pull under asap. I've watched o-lifters work up in weight while doing power cleans and the catch gets progressively lower.

Ah yes, but I think we all agree it's not as simple as meeting the weight lower as it gets heavier. It may look that simple for adept weightlifters, but the pull under is tricky and takes some learning. It doesn't happen automatically. I've yet to meet anyone who could get more weight in a full clean off the bat than they could with a power clean. In fact, it takes a few months to get to that point. Didn't you have to muck around with weights lighter than you could power to max heights in order to learn to catch heavy weights in the full squat. The best lifters explode the bar to about standing navel height and start to move under it a fraction of a second before the bar hits the apex of its upward movement, then catch it in a full squat position, then use the energy of the descending bar to bounce up out of the bottom of that squat. That sort of skill and timing doesn't just happen because the weights are getting heavy.

I'm just really glad the thread got back on track.

[Raskolnikov]

Absolutely. I should have clarified. I'm talking about weightlifters -- and so is Broz -- not your weekend warrior types like us. My point is this: it seems to me that for someone who has been trained in the full lifts from the very beginning, the difference between a power clean and a full clean really is more or less about how high the bar is caught. All trained weightlifters, on down to little kids, can full clean more than they power clean -- they drill the shit out of positions and learn the skill set of the full clean before they build strength in the power versions. Now, if you learn how to power clean first, and spend a couple years doing so exclusively, then I completely agree that there is a huge learning curve to the full lifts. You have to almost abbreviate the pull (not pull so high) because you are, out of necessity, using less weight than you would normally be power cleaning. (That is, because you lack the skill to clean, you are forced to use weight you could probably power snatch, so pulling too high is a real concern.) But once you have the skill set down and you can pull under with heavy weight, then I don't think the power variations interfere at all with the full lifts.

Hopefully all that rambling made sense...

[gzt]

I dunno, I naturally started jumping under (ie squat cleaning) when the weight got too heavy to power clean. It took some tweaks to get the form right from there.