Yet another press thread

[Scrofula]

I'm back on linear progression after a long injury-related interruption (not weight-room related). I'm around my old working weights, and my press has hit a sticky stall.

I confess, I'm not exactly on the program. I'm training for a sport, so I do strength training twice a week. Squats and presses (3 sets of 5), alternating deadlifts (1 of 5) and PCs (5 of 3). The latter two are moving up smoothly. I'm on a small caloric surplus; rapid weight gain would harm my sport performance, so I'm taking my time. All these things are suboptimal, but I'm doing what I can.

So, I'm trying to think of what to do next about my press. It's been stuck for maybe a month at 105. The first set wasn't even difficult; I got 3 in the second set, and then did an easy set of 5 at 100lb.
Things I've tried:

Deloading.
Microloading.
Increasing rest (currently at 7-8 minutes).


Things I'm considering:

Accessory work. I did weighted chins and dips and some trunk work while I was injured, but not since I got back on linear progression. Ab work actually helped get past a lighter stall last time I was on linear progression, so maybe this should be the first thing I try.
5 sets of 3.
Alternate volume and intensity days.
More milk. (Duh. Drinking some as I type this.)
5/3/1, or some other more drastic change of programming.

Any other suggestions? Thanks folks.

The squat also stalled today, but I think I just rushed it trying to finish before the gym closed.

[Magnetotail]

What's your height and weight?

[misspelledgeoff]

Were you microloading 2.5# increments? Perhaps try .125#?

In my experience pressing movements are tightly tied to bodyweight. That is, it's very hard to increase pressing past a certain point without a commensurate increase in bodyweight.

Maybe try bumping the milk up to get an extra 500 Kcal--hopefully that will push you through the plateua without making you gain too much more weight.

Another thing you might consider is a minibulk program followed by a minicut program. So take 10 weeks with a larger caloric surplus and target like 1# per week weight increase. Then follow that by 2 weeks of cutting on a Lyle McD RFL or similar ketogenic diet.

[Scrofula]

I'm 5'5", 135. Checking my logs, looks like I'm gaining weight at about the pace you suggest, at least for the past three or four weeks; my press hasn't budged in that time. In fact, I got 5,4,4 at under 132lb on January 23.

I'll up the calories for a while and see if that breaks it. Looks like a bodyweight press is going to be a moving target. Ah well, wasn't going to happen in the near future anyway.

[Platus]

Get your weight up before moving onto TM or 5/3/1. Reset, make sure your form is correct, microload (even as low as 1lb per sesson), experiment with some accessory work but don't overdo it (I find that weighted ab work is the most helpful for me), and add as much milk as you can handle.

[Alex Bond]

Bench. A while ago I was strength training for olympic lifting. I obviously included the press, and did not include the bench, as you are doing. My press stalled early and often. Now, I am benching as well, and I am blowing past my old press numbers. I think the bench gives you a chance to work the triceps and some of the prime movers in the shoulders more, I'm not really sure how, but it helped me a ton.

[gzt]

What's the smallest you've been microloading?

If you change up the programming, note that a lot of people find that pressing movements respond to volume. And gaining weight. Two days per week and weighing 135# may just not be enough to drive things up with the volume you're getting in.

And are you using a belt for the press? How's your bench? And you're male, right?

[Scrofula]

Currently microloading in increments of 2.5. I guess I should use smaller jumps.

I'll add some calories and a couple of accessory exercises: ab work and a heavy pushing exercise. I prefer weighted dips to the bench for various reasons, so I might go with that unless there's strong reason not to. I don't know what my bench is, but the last time I did dips, I used 35lb for 3 sets of 5.

No, I'm not using a belt (though it looks like a good time to get one for squatting). Yes, I'm male.

The frustrating thing is that the first set of 5 is pretty easy. It makes me wonder whether what the limiting factor is.

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions.

[Magnetotail]

How long are you resting between sets?

[Scrofula]

7-8 minutes.

[SamGriffin]

Assuming your technique is decent, I'm pretty sure your problems are all in your head. If 100lbs is "easy", 105 is not going to be that bad.

I think you should:

a)get a belt and wear it
b)take as long between sets as you need (don't time yourself)
c)as you approach the bar remind yourself that you are lifting little girl weights and it is now time to manhandle them

[Scrofula]

Heh. That's entirely possible. I actually use the timer to force myself to rest at least 7-8 minutes; otherwise, I get impatient and lift before I'm fully recovered. But you're right; I should bump up the rest and have one more go at lifting the little girl weight before I try anything drastic.

[Scrofula]

Got all reps today. Don't know whether it was the Mongolian BBQ lunch, the increased rest, or the tiny amount of ab work I did a couple of days ago, but all these things are henceforth going to be part of my routine. The pre-workout wasabi pea trail mix, on the other hand, was not my greatest idea.

I wonder how far I can take these rest increases. I know the usual answer is, 'as far as necessary', but I don't want to be taking 30 minute breaks six months from now.

Anyway, damn, that was a fun workout. Thanks for the input, all.

[Shaf]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest you look at what sort of routines were regularly used to improve the press before it was dropped from Olympic lifting.

Try here: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/

You'll see that an increased frequency is often seen when training the press. I, personally, would not make gains in the press unless I worked it at least 2x a week, often having one day for the push press, and the second for the regular press.

[hamster]

I've been getting good results by going heavy with my first work set, when I'm not tired, then deloading for my next two. Over the course of the next one or two workouts, I'm able to do the heavier weight for my final two sets.

[Shaf]

Microloading is a terrible option. If you have to microload, you're not doing things right.

As another data point, I have notices more core stability leading to better pressing (and squatting and deadlifting)

1. You are pressing ~bodyweight. That's not too bad.
2. You are extremely lightweight. That's not too good.
3. You press 1x weekly. That's not too good either.
4. You have to rest 7-8 minutes in between sets of pressing. Not good.

Based on that list:

Gain some weight.

Press more than 1x weekly.
-Heavy/Light/Med format. 3x weekly format. I've used incline bench/press/push press successfully in the past.
-Heavy/Light 2x weekly format. Push press one day, press the next.
-Heavy/Heavy - work up to a heavy set of presses, then start push pressing it 2x weekly.

Back off so you have a reasonable rest period. If you have to back off a bit on weight to make this happen, then do so and ramp up.

It's obvious you have a work capacity issue with this lift. This doesn't mean "work it less" or "make things easier". It means you need to intelligently ramp up your volume in a somewhat systematic fashion.

[Force Production]

Shaf,

Back off so you have a reasonable rest period.
How long is a "reasonable rest period", and what is the thought behind decreasing the time you rest?

Microloading is a terrible option. If you have to microload, you're not doing things right.
Why shouldn't one microload if doing linear progression?

[Scrofula]

Microloading is a terrible option. If you have to microload, you're not doing things right.
Really? This contradicts most of the conventional wisdom regarding presses. I'm pretty sure microloading is usually recommended as the way to go, including in BBT. What's wrong with it?



Press more than 1x weekly.
-Heavy/Light/Med format. 3x weekly format. I've used incline bench/press/push press successfully in the past.
-Heavy/Light 2x weekly format. Push press one day, press the next.
-Heavy/Heavy - work up to a heavy set of presses, then start push pressing it 2x weekly.

I'm already pressing 2x a week. It's my main upper body barbell exercise.

Since I got past the plateau, I'm going to pretty much stick to what I'm doing now, albeit with more food and ab work. Once things get sticky again, I'll look into some of the other recommendations in this thread.

[Shaf]

If you're working heavy, 3-4 minutes is reasonable. Maybe 5 if you're pressing 250-300 lbs. 8 minutes is reserved for extremely heavy work by extremely experienced lifters. A 135# press isn't in this category.

Microloading doesn't work well in the real world, and on top of that it instills a mindset based on failure and exception. This negative feedback loop has kept many weight trainers undersized and weak. See: The Hardgainer Roundtable. I suspect microloading psychologically weakens you with unconscious shame. You're just told yourself you're weak and need to put a quarter pound plate on the bar.

Plus, it's completely pointless to say you've got a 135.5# PR. I don't care your age, weight, experience, or whatever. Don't tell people that shit.

One of the real reasons microloading doesn't work is that your weight plates often vary enough from their stated weight to make microloading moot.

Let's say you load up the bar with 2 25s and 4 10s, then add a 1# plate on each side.

You think you'd have 137#, right? Well, if the 25s were each off by half pound, either way, and between the 4 10s you were off another half pound then it's blown your whole scenario out of the water.

Today's Chinese manufactured plates are often off their stated weights. In fact, at the old gym I trained at, we once weighed all the plates, all were York plates from circa 1965 to 1975 and they all over the place, with only a few of them, ones that has been noticably ground down on the flat side, actually being 45#.

So, if you are going to microload, you are also going to need to weigh each and every plate you use unless they are already calibrated. Have you done this?

Bumper plates, espeically the rubber or generic types, can have the same thing happen to them.

And let's get realistic about the linear progression. If you can't go from 132 to 135, then there's a breakdown in the entire program, and it's time to switch things up somehow. Maybe it's your caloric intake, or maybe it's just that your program isn't giving back anymore.

[coldfire]

If you're working heavy, 3-4 minutes is reasonable. Maybe 5 if you're pressing 250-300 lbs. 8 minutes is reserved for extremely heavy work by extremely experienced lifters.

Why?

[Shaf]

Coldfire: How about because it's indicative that your program has broken down and that you need to find something else. My more visceral response would be that if you need that much rest then your conditioning is inadequate to lift weights in a progressive manner. 3-5 minutes tends to be pretty standard rest between heavy sets, and allows for full metabolic recovery and an almost complete neurological recovery. Between 5-10 minutes of rest in between sets indicates that your nervous system is being taxed tremendously, and this will eventually lead to regression and burn out, usually sooner than later, unless some parameters are changed.

In addition to that, if a lifter is looking for hypertrophy, then the long rests in between sets will be much less effective than shorter rests.

Everyone here is obviously looking for validation rather than alternative ways to get your press up.

[Briks42]

Microloading (2.5 pounds increases) for a 135 pound press is the same percentage increase as a 5 pound increase in a squat of 270. Would you say that 5 pounds increases are pointless in the squat at 270?

[bowdirk]

Microloading is a terrible option. If you have to microload, you're not doing things right.

Not that it matters, but you pretty much lost me after I read the above.

If you are going to make such a blanket assertion that microloading is wrong in spite of the many people who have had success with it, you need to back it up, or look the fool.

Please clarify.

-Bowdirk

[milesdyson]

he thinks microloading means loading a half pound at a time. or it means increasing by 1-2lb at a time, but then the plates vary by more than that anyway, so that's pointless too. it is also shameful.

[Scrofula]

So, if you are going to microload, you are also going to need to weigh each and every plate you use unless they are already calibrated. Have you done this?
I believe the solution recommended in the book was to mark the plates, and use the same ones every workout. That way, even if they're off by a few pounds, you're still increasing the weight by approximately the same amount every week, even with <5lb jumps. I try to use the same equipment every workout, availability permitting (though it's tricky when people are moving the plates around).

[milesdyson]

i never marked the plates (at a globo mind you) and made 1.25 and 2.5lb jumps on my press during SS and never ran into any anomalies where i, for example, finished 3x5xY but got annihilated by Y+1.25. you would think after several months of pressing as prescribed in SS that i would have run into these mythical super heavy plates.

[gman]

Everyone here is obviously looking for validation rather than alternative ways to get your press up.

I think people are open to alternative ways, just not without some sort of experience or data to back it up.

[Shaf]

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

[Scrofula]

Well, thanks for your thoughts.

[EJLouis]

I have nothing more to say on this topic.

Thank god for that. Read Article (http://startingstrength.com/articles/incremental_increases_rippetoe.pdf)

[PMDL]

Man, it's pretty funny that you guys (of all people) are giving Shaf shit. You'd be much smarter to listen to what he's saying instead of being your usually snotty know-it-all selves.

That's asking too much, isn't it?

[EJLouis]

Any other suggestions? Thanks folks.

I recently failed on my first 2 attempts at bench press due to letting too much air out. I ended up flattening out on the bench and not being able to get back in position while loaded. By holding my breath for the first 4 reps (I couldn't hold it for all 5). I was able to get pass the weight on my third try so I didn't need to reset.

BTW I've been increasing by 2.5 lbs. On my next fail I'll probably go to 1.25lbs.

I'm going on the assumption that holding your breath will allow you to push through the press as well. At least that's the theory. BTW increasing by 1.25lbs jumps using chains

[nisora33]

There's a time and a place for the things Shaf suggested. Even if you think you're not at a point where you mght need alternative programming, you all should be filing this stuff away for future use instead of outright dismissing him. And you'd do well to follow that link he posted: it's full of useful, tried and true stuff. And it'd be well worth your time to check out another board Shaf posts on: Power and Bulk. Lots of seasoned vets there.

-S.

[cjangelo]

This thread provides a blindingly clear illustration of both what I really like about this forum and what I really dislike about it.


On a related note...

Man, it's pretty funny that you guys (of all people) are giving Shaf shit. You'd be much smarter to listen to what he's saying instead of being your usually snotty know-it-all selves.

That's asking too much, isn't it?

Your usual snarky, 100%-correct self.



There's a time and a place for the things Shaf suggested. Even if you think you're not at a point where you mght need alternative programming, you all should be filing this stuff away for future use instead of outright dismissing him. And you'd do well to follow that link he posted: it's full of useful, tried and true stuff. And it'd be well worth your time to check out another board Shaf posts on: Power and Bulk. Lots of seasoned vets there.

I am (eagerly) awaiting the return of "throw the first punch at 9pm on a Friday night" Stacey instead of this "reasonable, edifying response" iteration I've been subjected to.

[coldfire]

Coldfire: How about because it's indicative that your program has broken down and that you need to find something else. My more visceral response would be that if you need that much rest then your conditioning is inadequate to lift weights in a progressive manner. 3-5 minutes tends to be pretty standard rest between heavy sets, and allows for full metabolic recovery and an almost complete neurological recovery. Between 5-10 minutes of rest in between sets indicates that your nervous system is being taxed tremendously, and this will eventually lead to regression and burn out, usually sooner than later, unless some parameters are changed.


Shaf, have you ever done 5 sets across of 5 reps with a weight that is 5-10 pounds away from your 5RM? Can you do it with 3-5 minutes rest?

I've progressed from pressing 176lbs x 5 x5 to 191lbs x 5 x 5 in 8 weeks with microloading (yes, I use the same plates) and I can tell you that every fucking set felt like I wouldn't make the next one. I would never complete 25 reps resting 5 or less minutes between sets.

[kunnar]

Microloading doesn't work well in the real world, and on top of that it instills a mindset based on failure and exception. This negative feedback loop has kept many weight trainers undersized and weak. See: The Hardgainer Roundtable. I suspect microloading psychologically weakens you with unconscious shame. You're just told yourself you're weak and need to put a quarter pound plate on the bar.

Plus, it's completely pointless to say you've got a 135.5# PR. I don't care your age, weight, experience, or whatever. Don't tell people that shit.

One of the real reasons microloading doesn't work is that your weight plates often vary enough from their stated weight to make microloading moot.



LOL about this psycho and shame talk :D

At least for me most important thing is that weight goes up and it should be clear that with micro loading linear progression lasts longer and goes further. And you will simply use same barbell and plates all the time.

[gzt]

Shaf, have you ever done 5 sets across of 5 reps with a weight that is 5-10 pounds away from your 5RM? Can you do it with 3-5 minutes rest?

I've progressed from pressing 176lbs x 5 x5 to 191lbs x 5 x 5 in 8 weeks with microloading (yes, I use the same plates) and I can tell you that every fucking set felt like I wouldn't make the next one. I would never complete 25 reps resting 5 or less minutes between sets.
Shaf probably has.

Anyway, I disagree with him about some things, but what the hell do I know? 1# microloads probably aren't productive on a 150# movement (maybe they are), but 2.5# seems productive. 2.5# on a 300# movement is perhaps silly.

[Shaf]

I really wasn't going to revisit this.



Shaf, have you ever done 5 sets across of 5 reps with a weight that is 5-10 pounds away from your 5RM? Can you do it with 3-5 minutes rest?

Yes. I've done a significant amount of work similar to what SS recommend, with one of my first training resources a dog eared copy of Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" bought at a used library book sale probably close to 25 years ago.

But, I can elicit greater gains, over a longer run, using methods that keep the likelihood over overtraining much smaller than that brand of linear periodization. I've done it with both novice lifters and more advanced lifters using intelligent and simple autoreg techiniques, both in person and with people online.

I don't see it as a virtue to push your lifts so hard that you'll stall or regress for months later. The press is unlikely to cause a systemic breakdown, due to the relatively light weights and small impact it has on recuperation, but this has happened to me and to numerous people I know who've bought into the concpet of linear progression and wouldn't change things up when the timing was appropriate.

My stance will be that if your Rip-inspired training is still working, then keep at it. I don't consider novices training for months for a 5# PR as actually "working" for the record. For an advanced lifter, working months for a 5-10# PR is just how it goes.

My opinion on microloading is based on the long term observation of another community that takes the concept of microloading as some sort of holy commandment, the Hardgainer Roundtable. The rate of failure was astronomical, and the attitudes many Hardgainer's developed were that they were unable to make gains at all. I suspect many of you would have felt remarkably at home in that community.

It'll obviously be a waste of my time and yours if I'm going to offer any unsolicited comments, opinions, or advice here, since I'm not Rip, nor am I a staunch advocate of linear progressions for anyone who's already run that program to the tail end of it's effectiveness.

[kunnar]

First time hear about Hardgainer Roundtable, but most here are doing quite good progress, see training logs. Certainly can't say "unable to make gains at all".

[EJLouis]

It'll obviously be a waste of my time and yours if I'm going to offer any unsolicited comments, opinions, or advice here, since I'm not Rip, nor am I a staunch advocate of linear progressions for anyone who's already run that program to the tail end of it's effectiveness.

Some have reached the end of their linear progression and I think your input would be valuable in such a case. The OP at 135lbs with a 105lbs press doesn't seem to be in that category.

Stick around.

[cjangelo]

Stick around.
Agreed.


But, I can elicit greater gains, over a longer run, using methods that keep the likelihood over overtraining much smaller than that brand of linear periodization. I've done it with both novice lifters and more advanced lifters using intelligent and simple autoreg techiniques, both in person and with people online.

Would you mind elaborating on these methods? What auto-regulatory techniques are you talking about? Can you provide some links to some reading? This sounds very interesting.


I don't see it as a virtue to push your lifts so hard that you'll stall or regress for months later. The press is unlikely to cause a systemic breakdown, due to the relatively light weights and small impact it has on recuperation, but this has happened to me and to numerous people I know who've bought into the concpet of linear progression and wouldn't change things up when the timing was appropriate.

When is the timing appropriate, and how do you change it?


And you will simply use same barbell and plates all the time.

"Simply?" I can never find the same goddamn 45lbs plates in the gym when I want to lift. I already have to be crafty to monopolize the Texas Power Bar from fucking Jethro and Twink. I'd prefer another method.

[stroutman81]

Would you mind elaborating on these methods? What auto-regulatory techniques are you talking about? Can you provide some links to some reading? This sounds very interesting.

Start with this:

http://www.reactivetrainingsystems.com/store/custom-training?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=3&category_id=3

And check out Matt's (PMDL) response to the final question in this interview:

http://www.body-improvements.com/Articles/Interviews/PerrymanInterview2.html

[TheDeliverator]

Shaf can correct me, but the correct timing he's talking about probably relates to a "beginner" who is kicking and scratching for microloaded-PRs when he could continue to progress with more intermediate'ish methods.

I don't think anybody would argue against linear progression being the best method for increasing strength for a beginner, but there's a certain point where killing yourself for a 1 or 2 pound PR after several attempts, resets or failures isn't as prudent as adopting more appropriate training styles to keep on trucking forward.

He also mentions the fact that there's a certain point where no matter what you do, you'll be forced to kick and claw your way to small PR's. It's not uncommon for higher-level lifters to reach a point where a 5-pound PR after months of effort is a proud accomplishment. However, a beginner pressing 130 pounds doesn't fit that description.

And no, that wasn't a shot at the original posters strength, just that it's more likely there are other factors that could be changed to continue progressing before he needs 10 minutes of rest and severe micro-loading.

Of course, I don't speak for Shaf and I'm sure he will clarify his thoughts or correct mine if I interpreted him incorrectly.

[PVC]

...it's more likely there are other factors that could be changed to continue progressing before he needs 10 minutes of rest and severe micro-loading.

Like maybe gaining some weight? Did nobody else notice that the OP only weighs 135 lbs? Unless he is 5'0, this is not okay.

I've also got a question for Shaf, or for anyone else who wants to field it. You said that a trainee shouldn't have to wait longer than 3-5 minutes between sets. Were you referring to the press specifically, or to all lifts? For the press and bench press I don't need to rest for more than 5 minutes, but for squats I need to rest 8-10 minutes. Is this a bad thing?

[TheDeliverator]

Gaining some weight, absolutely, would be the first thing to address. A growing kid should be gaining some weight with his strength.

And to me, nothing needs more than 3-5 minutes rest, regardless of movement.

8-10 is ridiculous.

[coldfire]

I really wasn't going to revisit this.



Yes. I've done a significant amount of work similar to what SS recommend, with one of my first training resources a dog eared copy of Starr's "The Strongest Shall Survive" bought at a used library book sale probably close to 25 years ago.

But, I can elicit greater gains, over a longer run, using methods that keep the likelihood over overtraining much smaller than that brand of linear periodization. I've done it with both novice lifters and more advanced lifters using intelligent and simple autoreg techiniques, both in person and with people online.

I don't see it as a virtue to push your lifts so hard that you'll stall or regress for months later. The press is unlikely to cause a systemic breakdown, due to the relatively light weights and small impact it has on recuperation, but this has happened to me and to numerous people I know who've bought into the concpet of linear progression and wouldn't change things up when the timing was appropriate.

My stance will be that if your Rip-inspired training is still working, then keep at it. I don't consider novices training for months for a 5# PR as actually "working" for the record. For an advanced lifter, working months for a 5-10# PR is just how it goes.

My opinion on microloading is based on the long term observation of another community that takes the concept of microloading as some sort of holy commandment, the Hardgainer Roundtable. The rate of failure was astronomical, and the attitudes many Hardgainer's developed were that they were unable to make gains at all. I suspect many of you would have felt remarkably at home in that community.

It'll obviously be a waste of my time and yours if I'm going to offer any unsolicited comments, opinions, or advice here, since I'm not Rip, nor am I a staunch advocate of linear progressions for anyone who's already run that program to the tail end of it's effectiveness.

Thanks for the reply. I pretty much agree with your opinion on microloading. I don't usually do it, just tried it once and it worked well.
I was more interested about the statement on rest time between sets.
I agree that you can't work so hard you need 10 minutes rest all the time, workout after workout, week after week, but it is unavoidable for certain periods, even if you periodize your training.

[EJLouis]

I don't think anybody would argue against linear progression being the best method for increasing strength for a beginner, but there's a certain point where killing yourself for a 1 or 2 pound PR after several attempts, resets or failures isn't as prudent as adopting more appropriate training styles to keep on trucking forward.

He also mentions the fact that there's a certain point where no matter what you do, you'll be forced to kick and claw your way to small PR's. It's not uncommon for higher-level lifters to reach a point where a 5-pound PR after months of effort is a proud accomplishment.

This is not in dispute and is the common methodology applied by SS advocates as they progress pass the linear progression. So were all on the same page here.

[TheDeliverator]

Right, but I think the point Shaf is making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that there shouldn't be a need for a beginner to microload.

[RyanH]

I can't believe the shit that Shaf has gotten on this forum. He has probably forgotten more about training than most of the posters here will ever know.

Interview w/ Shaf (scroll down) (http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/nlarchive/November+5%2C+2008/)

As far as programming for the press, here is what an acquaintance of Rip's has to say about it (referring to the push press, but you'll get the idea).


My advice on push press is to #1 get your squat and front squat up. That’s a whole other thread, but it's safe to say that you wont be push pressing 300lbs with the same squat numbers that you are push pressing 230lbs with. You’ll need strong legs.

When I push pressed 440lbs, I had done 770 for a triple on the Olympic style squat wearing only a belt, and 606lbs for a set of 10 without even wearing a belt. Rob McAdams push pressed 375lbs weighing about 200lbs, he squatted 400lbs for a set of 20 OL style with no belt, and did front squats with 440lbs and more wearing only a belt. It's hard for me to imagine a 300lb push press with much less than a 500lb OL style squat done raw. I’m sure its been done by some freak, hell some freak out there probably push presses his max squat. But if you're aiming for 300lbs on the push press, I'd aim for 500lbs on a raw squat done deep and a stance close to what you are push pressing with.

Now as to training the push press itself... I would do them twice per week if you are no good at them, if your technique is bad. Do this just to learn the movement. If you are skilled at them, cut it back to once. But do overhead work 3 times per week if you can. Do a variety of movements. Military press, push jerks, even snatch grip push press, and regular push press with the bar behind the neck. Benching once per week won't hurt you, but if you bench too much, it cuts down on what you can do overhead, at least in my opinion.

A good workout emphasizing the push press might look like this

Monday
5x5 on military press
Wednesday
3x5 on push press
Friday
3x5 on bench press
3x5 a little lighter on some other overhead movement, like push jerk, or snatch grip push press

Start conservative, build and after 4 or 5 weeks change the reps or one of the exercises.

For variety, you can do complex exercises... for instance, on one of the days, you can use a weight you can do around 4 or 5 reps on the military press, press it for 3 reps then push press it for 3 more, for 3 or 4 sets.

Or, if you know how to jerk, take a weight you can push press say 5 times, push press it for 3, then jerk it for 2 or 3 more... again for 3 or 4 sets.

These complexes are killers! Don’t overdo them.

That's basically it, get your squat up, and practice overhead work. Its nice to see someone interested in my favorite upper body exercise. A big bench is cool, but there is always the equipment controversy. A big jerk is simply a thing of beauty to me, but there are always those who scream "it's all technique" and dismiss the strength needed to do it. But a big push press, I don’t know, to me, it’s just the absolute coolest expression of shoulder/arm strength there is. I think a big push press is a damn cool thing.

Glenn Pendlay

[Shaf]

Obviously I came on a bit aggressively. A more tactical approach to the forum could have been more productive.

[Shaf]

Deliverator is spot on with his comments.

Those who've ridden out a linear progressive routine are are ready to try some basic autoregulation stuff can check out the archives of IGx to kind of get a feel for something different enough to keep progress moving.

http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12088&start=0

(scroll down to the last two posts)

Some of that stuff is pretty old. The last question in that thread represents my current thinking on progression for that type of work.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Shaf,

What would you consider micro loading?

Considering the other forums you post in, the "tactical" comment made me laugh.

[Shaf]

It's be useful for anyone here to understand that my idea of microloading is to use any plates smaller than the 2.5# plates commonly found in most gyms. I have trained in places with 1.25# plates, and with 1# and 0.5# platemates.

I'll use 2.5# plates for shit like overhead presses or maybe the bench if I'm really, really focused on a specific weight that requires them. I cannot think of a single time I've use 2.5# plates for the deadlift, squat, or power clean in close to 25 years of lifting EXCEPT going for PRs in a powerlifting meet and the weight just happened to fall on a combination of plates that used them.

It's not that I'm adverse to the concept, it's just that I've really seen it work in a meaningful way very infrequently and I've seen people waste weeks and months on the concept when a more drastic change was warrented.

[sully13]

Thanks for posting the Ladders stuff. Very interesting.

[nisora33]

Good stuff, Shaf. Thanks.

-S.

[dumbinic]

I think if you aren't getting the gains you want out of the program you are doing then a change is in order.

[Scrofula]

Like maybe gaining some weight? Did nobody else notice that the OP only weighs 135 lbs? Unless he is 5'0, this is not okay.
Close -- 5'5". But yeah, I'm on a caloric surplus.

Anyway, sounds like it's worth experimenting with shorter rest periods. Maybe I'll see what Rippetoe has to say about this as well.

[TheDeliverator]

All you got out of the thread is to shorten your rest periods?

[PVC]

Close -- 5'5". But yeah, I'm on a caloric surplus.

5'5 is not anywhere close to 5'0 from the perspective of bodyweight.

[Scrofula]

All you got out of the thread is to shorten your rest periods?
No, I've already described elsewhere in this thread what other changes I'm making to my strategy. The shortening rest was what I got out of the last couple of pages.

[SamGriffin]

What's wrong with ten minutes between sets if it gets the job done?

[davew]

Technically, nothing is. The point others have been trying to make is that when it comes down to that, you should look into other methods of continuing progress.