Press and DL thoughts....

[ZKP]

One thing about these two movements I've noticed is that they typically increase along with others. Increase your bench, your press comes along. Increase your Squat, DL goes up.

I've noticed with me that high 1RM%(90%) DL training is unnecessary to increase your dl Max. Sub maximal work spread over a longer period of time peaking every 2 months, works well for me. I think this has to do with keeping the neurological pathways the DL uses fresh by still working it weekly and hard, but not tearing up my nervous system by constantly attempting new PR's. Working hard, but only really having to go balls out once every 6-8 weeks is effective.
Another thing I've noticed is that Presses and DL start with the concentric segment and ends with the eccentric, i.e the negative of the movement is after the lift is completed. Whereas in the squat or bench it's the opposite, the negative portion comes first, followed by the lift. What does this mean? Who the hell knows. Controlling the decent of a squat or BP is important, and in many ways decides the execution of the lift, where this element is absent from a DL/Press. I practice a lot of singles in the DL/press because of this lack of the negatives necessity in a successful lift(if I can lift it, I can set it down), but then again if your after multiple rep max's this is a moot point...and who knows if that's why this singles business works at all...Different and progressive are just as likely culprits...blah blah blah..thought I'd ramble..

[Tim Lofton]

How about starting the press from the top, like a bench press? So you'd lower and press back to the top for one rep. Think this changes things any? Just curious...

[ZKP]

It would depend on how much possible muscular rebound exists in the press. Who knows.

[The Laughing Man]

Yes starting a press from the top, and doing it like a bench press, getting air at the top, and not pausing at the bottom, would make it a fair bit easier.

With unracking the bar, etc, it's just not practical though, and it's just weird doing it like that really.

[TGM]

Yes starting a press from the top, and doing it like a bench press, getting air at the top, and not pausing at the bottom, would make it a fair bit easier.

With unracking the bar, etc, it's just not practical though, and it's just weird doing it like that really.

That's why you pause on the first rep when it reaches the top, so you can start the next reps from the top. You can then take advantage of stretch relfex at the bottom of the press.

[The Laughing Man]

Yes, you can do that if you like on reps. We were speaking of singles though.

[ZKP]

And making it "easier" is not really what I'm after. Dave Tate/Westside writes about singles Training for DL and I think it's worth a valid crack at using some of those principles at training the press. Ah, the fun of when simple linear progression stops working so well....

[rhymer]

You don't need to unrack the press high to start from the top (and it would be dangerous to do it that way). You can push press or jerk it up and then go from there.

[El Viejo]

I've noticed with me that high 1RM%(90%) DL training is unnecessary to increase your dl Max. Sub maximal work spread over a longer period of time peaking every 2 months, works well for me. I think this has to do with keeping the neurological pathways the DL uses fresh by still working it weekly and hard, but not tearing up my nervous system by constantly attempting new PR's. Working hard, but only really having to go balls out once every 6-8 weeks is effective.

Thanks for rambling. This interests me. Would you mind laying out your DL workouts more specifically?

[ZKP]

Currently I DL every Wed. I'm thinking about throwing in some rack pulls on Sat from now on, just to see what happens, but thats another topic....

wk1 15@70%
wk2 12@75%
wk3 10@80%
wk4 8@85%
wk5 5@90%
wk6 rest or max or start over

That's the gist of it. I should probibly give someone credit for it but it's a Frankenstein routine that came from a lot of peoples ideas. The 90% x 5 week is hard.....but manageable. Notice 5 3 or 2 rep maxes have nothing to do with it. I like the singles because they keep the volume down, since I still squat 3 times a week(mostly, light squat/DL on same day). Hope this helps in some small way...

[nisora33]

Good thread. Nice work ZKP. Let us know how the rack deads impact your training.

-S.

[Baker]

Currently I DL every Wed. I'm thinking about throwing in some rack pulls on Sat from now on, just to see what happens, but thats another topic....

wk1 15@70%
wk2 12@75%
wk3 10@80%
wk4 8@85%
wk5 5@90%
wk6 rest or max or start over

That's the gist of it. I should probibly give someone credit for it but it's a Frankenstein routine that came from a lot of peoples ideas. The 90% x 5 week is hard.....but manageable. Notice 5 3 or 2 rep maxes have nothing to do with it. I like the singles because they keep the volume down, since I still squat 3 times a week(mostly, light squat/DL on same day). Hope this helps in some small way...

it's very similar to the older westside stuff...see here:http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/404/

"Since the deadlift is a different animal, with no eccentric contraction before the ascent, Louie ONLY used singles. The cycle looked like this

Deadlift
Week one: 70% 15 sets of 1 one min rest/sets
Week two: 75% 12 sets of 1 one min rest/sets
Week three: 80% 8-10 sets of 1 - 1.5 min rest/sets
Week four: 85% 4-6 sets of 1 1.5 - 2 min rest/sets
Week five: 90% 1-3 singles of 1 - 2 min rest/set
Week six: de load or rest
Week seven: new max at contest or gym or recycle with 70% "

[ZKP]

Thats where it started. I believe i said that earlier. I think the min here and there was too nit picky for me (i.e. I dont care), and i don't do half the assistance shit they do, since I can still get a lot from squatting more often. I think most of us would. Dave Tate talks a lot about singles for the DL as well. The main idea is to avoid constant PR's in the DL because they wear you out. I think that energy would probibly be more productively spent on the squat and the DL will come along. Then again, I'd be really curious to speak with someone who specialized on DL for a spell and see how that effected their squat. I'd wager the carryover is not as great as the other way around..

S-Thanks by the way. I'll be sure to update on the effect of rack pulls in a few months. I have long ass arms and a long torso so I'll either gain ten lbs or explode from overtraining....we'll see

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

ZKP,

Thanks for sharing this.

IPB

[ZKP]

No problem.... If it helps at all, then right on! I think any combination of different, hard, and regimented will work, it's just finding which works best for you after certain parameter's are met....

[Baker]

Thats where it started. I believe i said that earlier.

whoops, you did say it earlier & i missed it...my apologies.

[ZKP]

whoops, you did say it earlier & i missed it...my apologies.

No prob. Thanks for pointing out the sight. Lots of good stuff (and shit) there to think about....

[python2705]

Baker - that dragondoor article is really interesting. I don't think the article specified this and I was curious, how many times a week are they squatting and bench with the plan described in that article? Presumably they are only deadlifting once a week, with the rep and set scheme you posted above. But how many times a week are they doing this scheme for benching and squatting:

Week one: 70% 8 sets of 3 one minute rest/sets
Week two: 75% 8 sets of 3 one minute rest/sets
Week four: 80% 6 sets of 2 1.5 minute rest/ sets
Week five: 85% 4 sets of 2 1.5 minutes rest/sets
Week six: 70%x2, 75%x2 80%x2 85%x2, 90% 1-2 sets of 2 - 2 minutes rest/sets

Week seven (contest, new gym max or start over at 70%):
70%x1, 75%x1, 80%x1, 85%x1, 90%x1, 101-105%x1

Just curious and I don't think it was stated in the article. Thanks!

[ZKP]

I'm not baker-but this is an old Westside routine. You DL once, do a max effort squat and bench once and a dynamic tension (speed) bench and squat as well. 2 squat, 2 bench one dead a week basically....

[Baker]

I'm not baker-but this is an old Westside routine. You DL once, do a max effort squat and bench once and a dynamic tension (speed) bench and squat as well. 2 squat, 2 bench one dead a week basically....

i'm not 100% certain, but Mark Reifkind (the guy who wrote the article) says, "This was the very beginning of WSB and box squats, chains and bands and Dynamic effort and Max effort day had not yet been written about."

so there was no de/me days with these percents, at least not initially. so maybe just 1 day per week for each lift? however, i may be reading his quote wrong...

python2705: dragondoor has a forum where Mark Reifkind posts as rifstonian, i'd ask him what the frequency was.

edit: i just asked him over there, we'll see if he responds.

[python2705]

Baker, thanks for the putting forth the initiative to find that out, appreciate it. 1 day per week for each lift, if I'm reading that right you would only be lifting 3 times a week, bench one day, squat one day, deadlift the other day? That seems like such a low overall volume. Anyway I realize that was just a guess, I'm looking forward to seeing what Reifkind says.

[ZKP]

i'm not 100% certain, but Mark Reifkind (the guy who wrote the article) says, "This was the very beginning of WSB and box squats, chains and bands and Dynamic effort and Max effort day had not yet been written about."

so there was no de/me days with these percents, at least not initially. so maybe just 1 day per week for each lift? however, i may be reading his quote wrong...

python2705: dragondoor has a forum where Mark Reifkind posts as rifstonian, i'd ask him what the frequency was.

edit: i just asked him over there, we'll see if he responds.

Very True. The Dynamic tension day had not been clearly defined yet, but was deemed necessary. Therefore, try and throw it or something of the nature in. Benching/squat/dead once a week each works if a)your a rank beginner and anything will work or b) your really advanced and strong and need that much time to recover or c) peaking. The DL is a little different, being the point of the thread...

[Baker]

for python2705, looks like once/week for those percentages...

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/kettlebells-strength-conditioning-forum/141684-old-school-westside-mark-reifkind.html

ZKP: the DL is certainly a different beast, louie & dave have been in favor of singles for some time with those. brad gillingham has said that 5x5 squats help his deadlifts more than anything (if i remember correctly), and he pulls singles every week, alternating from the floor & the rack. bill starr wrote an article waaaay back about how he didn't do any deadlifts before he pulled 666 at 198 in 1968. He did power cleans, high pulls, power shrugs & good mornings....& of course squats.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HbaApmpa-Po/SmZqgONi4DI/AAAAAAAABdA/caNAsgt0vaE/s400/two.jpg

[python2705]

Thanks Baker, thats really interesting. I suspect benching/squatting/deadlifting once a week in that system is set up that way because the guys using it are pretty damn strong and need that much time to recover, as ZKP said. Like the guys said on the dragondoor thread, those older articles are an absolute gold mine. Good stuff, thanks for offering that kind of info over here.