1st time round back deadlifting

[nisora33]

Conversations here on this board, my lurking over at the Power and Bulk forums, and PMDL's recent article on the round back deadlift all got me wanting to try the lift that Bob Peoples helped popularize.

Sorry about the quality of the video--I forgot my camera and had to borrow a friend's phone. This is my 2nd warmup set, her phone fizzled out soon after, but based on "feel" alone, I'd say that my worksets didn't look much different than these:

http://www.vimeo.com/9833674

Note the low back remains flat throughout. Upper back is flexed and the hips are fairly high. Just thought I'd share this with you for the sake of your curiosity/amusement/derision.

-Stacey

[PMDL]

some good sloppy rows and heavy shrugs will help bring that shit up fast

[Locutus]

Looks like you have pretty awesome muscular control. I hope I look similar(but with conventional), as I haven't recorded myself yet. Let us know how it works out as the sumos get heavier.

[coreJack]

Nice job keeping lumbar extension while allowing thoracic flexion.

As an aside, why sumo?

[nisora33]

Looks like you have pretty awesome muscular control. I hope I look similar(but with conventional), as I haven't recorded myself yet. Let us know how it works out as the sumos get heavier.

I use the semi-sumo stance due to the length of my legs (legs too long for my body/real high-waisted). Consequently, this is the best my deadlift has ever felt. It feels like I was meant to pull this way.

-S.

[nisora33]

some good sloppy rows and heavy shrugs will help bring that shit up fast

I'll need to figure out where to put what...

I cut out bench a while ago, and I doubt I'll be benching again anytime soon, so I usually do some variation of pressing three times a week. Right now I'm using Shaf's ladder approach to boost my press. I could cut out the Wednesday pressing and hit the shrugs real heavy instead. That's also the day when I'm doing stiff-legged deads. We'll have to see about rows, I guess...

EDIT: Matt how 'bout "Pendlay" rows instead of SLDLs?

[Nauticus]

Those looked very easy, and your back angle is similar to how most people's is for a conventional DL. For the same reason, I'll be seeing how semi-sumo works for me Friday.

[coreJack]

I use the semi-sumo stance due to the length of my legs (legs too long for my body/real high-waisted). Consequently, this is the best my deadlift has ever felt. It feels like I was meant to pull this way.

Hmmm, I also have long legs/short torso for my height. It took me forever to get enough flexibility in my hamstrings to be able to get into lumbar extension for deadlifts. I guess I could have been doing sumo all this time, which makes me feel like an idiot.

I suppose you give up a little low back training doing sumo, but obviously there are other ways to make up for that.

[milesdyson]

looks very similar to my first attempt minus the sumo. protracting the shoulders and almost "pushing" the bar away before extending the lower back really helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6YK_SFlgU

and i do feel a lot more soreness in my lats, as well.

[Dastardly]

I found out that I have disproportionately long legs too & short arms through training. I had never noticed it before.

Sumo "feels" much better for me, I need a very wide stance in both squat & deadlift to allow back to enable extension of lower back.

I have always focused on the conventional though as I felt sumo was somehow cheating and would not have carry over to cleans. But the fact is, even with a round back I can always pull significantly more conventional. It feels like much more muscle both in the legs and back, is used in the sumo.

I did my last session of persistent experimenting today, I have decided to reset and switch to moderate sumo.

[gzt]

I did my last session of persistent experimenting today, I have decided to reset and switch to moderate sumo.
Aren't you only DLing in teh neighborhood of 100kg?

[Dastardly]

Yes, but no matter how light the weight is I cannot set my back into extension without legs being too wide to have straight arms.

I have deadlifted for a year conventional but have shyed away from progressing past 115kg or so because my back is not in extension even at the beginning of the lift.

I can get back extended while legs are justoutside arms but can only actually pull 15% less than my conventional.

[nisora33]

looks very similar to my first attempt minus the sumo. protracting the shoulders and almost "pushing" the bar away before extending the lower back really helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6YK_SFlgU

and i do feel a lot more soreness in my lats, as well.

Felt like butter, though, while you were doing them, didn't they?

I wonder whether that setup will become more automatic as I practice it. Like you, I have to do every rep in two stages, one to round the upper back, one to extend the lumbars and hike my tail-end up.

My rhomboids and upper lats are in knots right now, so I agree with you that the lats are getting hammered.

-S.

[milesdyson]

Felt like butter, though, while you were doing them, didn't they?

I wonder whether that setup will become more automatic as I practice it. Like you, I have to do every rep in two stages, one to round the upper back, one to extend the lumbars and hike my tail-end up.

My rhomboids and upper lats are in knots right now, so I agree with you that the lats are getting hammered.

-S.
definitely felt quicker off the floor. last friday was my third session, and i did 10lb more than i'd ever tried before. setting up was also easier the third time, so it definitely gets better. i expect after a few more times it won't look like separate stages at all.

it also makes it much easier for me to take a mixed grip on the bar, imo. anyone can see this by extending his arms and retracting his shoulders. pronate one hand, supinate the other, and watch how much easier it gets when you protract your shoulders.

soon i will try the way it was done in that other thread. fully flexed and loose lumbar. JK guys.

[jameson]

The statement PMDL gives in his log, when discussing the round-back DL, "The weight just seems to snap right off the ground and it has a much smoother bar-path in comparison to 'regular' conventional." certainly applies to your video. This is the cleanest DL I've ever seen you do.

I may give this a shot, and see what happens.

[famendoza]

I'll need to figure out where to put what...

I cut out bench a while ago, and I doubt I'll be benching again anytime soon, so I usually do some variation of pressing three times a week. Right now I'm using Shaf's ladder approach to boost my press. I could cut out the Wednesday pressing and hit the shrugs real heavy instead. That's also the day when I'm doing stiff-legged deads. We'll have to see about rows, I guess...

EDIT: Matt how 'bout "Pendlay" rows instead of SLDLs?

Hey Nisora, I'd be interested to see your ongoing progress on the press with the ladder approach. I'm tempted to use the ladders (Shaf's explanation of the method is very intriguing), but for right now I'm committing myself to go through the 5/3/1 at least until I hit my tested 1RM press max (155lbs), which will be in a few months time. I may change things up after then. Do you have a training log on Internet land?

[nisora33]

Do you have a training log on Internet land?

Not yet, but I'll probably start one.

-S.

[Magnetotail]

How are you finding the ladders for the press?

I recently started doing 5 sets of 3 instead of the usual 3x5 and I feel way happier with it. When sets across stop feeling useful for me I might give ladders a go as they look quite interesting from what I remember. I'll have to go and find Shaf's post on it cause I can't remember exactly how they work.

[nisora33]

Okay, here are my initial impressions of the round back deadlift:

First of all, these wrecked my shoulder girdle. Today was the first day that I've felt recovered since doing these Monday. Miles, you were right about the lats being particularly stressed by these. Here's an illustration of where exactly I felt "wrecked":

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4409410944_cea8e41e68_o.jpg


I can appreciate why inexperienced lifters are encouraged not to try round back deadlifting until they are much stronger: their muscle control is very poor, and teaching them to remain rounded but tight would be challenging, to say the least. The risk is that, starting with the upper back rounded, the upper back will round even more, muscles having relaxed, putting all the stress on the skeletal components. Therefore, my initial impression is that the round back deadlift in some ways requires more upper back control and strength that its flat-backed counterpart (those of you out there who've done it this way, would you share this opinion or not?).

-S.

[cjangelo]

I can appreciate why inexperienced lifters are encouraged not to try round back deadlifting until they are much stronger: their muscle control is very poor, and teaching them to remain rounded but tight would be challenging, to say the least. The risk is that, starting with the upper back rounded, the upper back will round even more, muscles having relaxed, putting all the stress on the skeletal components. Therefore, my initial impression is that the round back deadlift in some ways requires more upper back control and strength that its flat-backed counterpart (those of you out there who've done it this way, would you share this opinion or not?).

Stacey, I'm not sure I understand why if my upper back rounds more during the lift, the stress is transferred to the skeletal components. Can you elaborate on how this works?

Just thinking out loud here: if the stress is transferred to the skeletal components when your back rounds, then wouldn't the safest technique be that which causes the least amount of movement in the back?

In other words, it doesn't matter if you start with a round back, as long as you hold it. If you start with a straight back, but don't hold the position, that's actually worse than starting with a round back and holding it.

[nisora33]

In other words, it doesn't matter if you start with a round back, as long as you hold it. If you start with a straight back, but don't hold the position, that's actually worse than starting with a round back and holding it.

I'm probably just not writing very clearly. I agree with you. The point I was trying to make: someone new enough to lifting that they don't have muscle control and body awareness to keep a flat back will have a hard time keeping a rounded but tight back, so they'll just let their backs round even further as they start to pull, relaxing the upper back muscles completely and putting all the stress on the skeletal components. In that case, not only have the intervertebral relationships changed, the discs are being squished at end-range flexion. Ouch.

-S.

[cjangelo]

I'm probably just not writing very clearly. I agree with you. The point I was trying to make: someone new enough to lifting that they don't have muscle control and body awareness to keep a flat back will have a hard time keeping a rounded but tight back, so they'll just let their backs round even further as they start to pull,

We're in agreement. You were perfectly clear in your initial post, I was reiterating your point to make sure I understood.


...and putting all the stress on the skeletal components. In that case, not only have the intervertebral relationships changed, the discs are being squished at end-range flexion. Ouch.

This is more what I was looking for. I don't know dick about anatomy, so I was looking for some further elaboration of what "bad" happened when the back rounded under tension.

Thanks Stacey. I was also hoping PMDL would offer a little insight (if applicable).

[Sami]

Thoracic herniations can happen too, just not as common as Lumbar.

[nisora33]

Thoracic herniations can happen too, just not as common as Lumbar.

Right. Hence the importance of being rounded but tight.