Squats and Presses

[python2705]

Hey guys,
I hit a few heavier squat sets today to look for form breakdown at higher weights (for me). I used to have problems with knees sliding at the bottom, hips shooting up causing good morning-looking squats, and bar deviating forward of midfoot - all related obviously. I'm 5'9, bodyweight around 160 from 135 when I started this barbell journey, first video is 230x3, second video is 235x2 (meant to be 235x3 but my first try I descended too quickly on my second rep and hit the rack supports, so the two reps you see here are essentially reps 2 and 3 due to the very short break after the failure). My eyes think the 230x3 looks decent, but the 235x2 looks a little too bent-over for my liking. Even though I'm thinking my knees look pretty good, I still can't help but notice the bar deviates forward of midfoot. Seems like this problem is something that is making my squats exponentially harder. Ok enough rambling, what do you guys think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z2run4rBYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct-FdIm1qw4

First time I've ever filmed myself pressing, this is the third set of what was meant to be 5 reps but as you'll see I let my back get soft and failed on the 4th rep. The past few workouts I've refocused on back tightness and minimal layback, both of which I was having trouble with. I think these look decent as well, maybe I could be getting under the bar a bit faster and more aggressively though. So here is 115x3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-NP-5pyipE

I did SS for ~3.5 months earlier this year (not always with proper eating, clearly). Now I'm on the CFWF program, before I get flamed for not still doing SS when I only weigh 160, just wanted to say that I'm doing the CFWF program purely because its fun as hell. In my mind, training should be fun, and since I'm having a blast I'm just gonna keep on doing it. Thanks for the feedback guys.

[Gary Gibson]

Just going to comment on the squats...

I used to worry about my back angle and send Rip videos in which my back angle looked a lot like yours. He said they were fine, but I still wanted my back not to be quite so flat. I think it's just a function of the weight being really, really, relatively heavy. While your self-critiques are spot on when it comes to letting the bar drift and such, these are just the sort of minor flaws that happen when handling very heavy weights. I bet you could hold a much "prettier" back angle if you were using 135, right?

You seem to know to stay tight as you hit the bottom. I think as you get stronger, you'll be able to handle higher percentages of your 1RM without getting so bent over. Just keep working at it and what needs to get stronger will. Your hamstrings and glutes will get better at holding the angle as well as stronger in the hip drive. You'll always get bent over with limit weights, but as you get stronger, the back angle will look prettier in your heavy work sets. At least that's what seems to be happening with me.

[python2705]

Thanks a lot for the feedback on the squats, Gary. I think a large part of my problems stem from first trying to do SS without buying the book, and as a result squatting with a very bent over position, essentially a good morning that went past parallel. You can actually see on my Youtube page a couple shitty quality videos (in terms of video and squat form) from 4 months ago where I clearly had no idea of the cue "chest up." Anyway I think squatting like that made me very PC dominant, and so now that I am getting the form down and keeping my chest up (in addition to using the Do-Wins instead of my wrestling shoes), my quads are the weak point and they are causing the trouble holding the back angle. In any case, its getting better every session and thats what counts.

It is reassuring to hear from someone who's gone through this process, and the advice to just keep on working at it is exactly what I needed to hear, so once again I appreciate it Gary.

Anyone else care to comment on the presses?

[Gary Gibson]

Thanks a lot for the feedback on the squats, Gary. I think a large part of my problems stem from first trying to do SS without buying the book, and as a result squatting with a very bent over position, essentially a good morning that went past parallel. You can actually see on my Youtube page a couple shitty quality videos (in terms of video and squat form) from 4 months ago where I clearly had no idea of the cue "chest up." Anyway I think squatting like that made me very PC dominant, and so now that I am getting the form down and keeping my chest up (in addition to using the Do-Wins instead of my wrestling shoes), my quads are the weak point and they are causing the trouble holding the back angle. In any case, its getting better every session and thats what counts.

It is reassuring to hear from someone who's gone through this process, and the advice to just keep on working at it is exactly what I needed to hear, so once again I appreciate it Gary.

Anyone else care to comment on the presses?

Of course I'm going to tell you that you really ought to buy the book if you haven't already. The book is only about $30 and the return on that investment is very, very big.

Second, we've argued here about weak quads being the reason for bending over, but the fact is that the hamstrings are responsible for holding the back angle. Yeah, yeah, I know that the hamstrings also have to work hard in a good morning when the shooting hips remove the quads in a squat gone wrong...but the hamstrings hold that back angle and that's the harder job and you need to get them better at that. You can think of it as weak hamstrings causing the quads to be left out of the movement and when you actually start holding the back angle with heavier weight, you'll see what I mean about the hamstrings.

[nisora33]

Anyone else care to comment on the presses?

No.

[python2705]

Gary - Yes I do have the book, without it I would still be wasting my time like I did before. Very very worthwhile investment. About the weak hamstring/weak quads argument, if someone would've asked me a month ago which part is the weak link causing the good morning tendency, I would've said the hamstrings. But after doing some reading on the forums here I was under the impression that it was in fact the quads, and it resonated with me knowing that my quads were weaker than I'd like. I do totally see how the problem originates with weak hamstrings, its actually kind of intuitive but thank you a lot for clarifying that for me.

Stacey - No, as in, "no, they're good enough, why are you pressing with such bitch weights" or "no, no one cares to comment?" Lol hopefully the first option.

[Robert Callahan]

Squats: I agree with what Gary has said about squats.

Press: Honestly your press failure was a mental one. You had the bar over your head and had it moving with decent speed and then just gave up half way up. As press gets heavy it will move VERY SLOW. I have had reps take a full 5 seconds, and when you are under the bar that can be an eternity, but if you stay tough and keep fucking fighting that bar for every inch you will be surprised what you can do.

I would not reset this lift, go for the same weight, and fucking get tough with it! Don't worry about your core going soft, just focus on pushing the fuck out of the bar and finishing the set come hell or high water!

[python2705]

Definitely true, Robert. I wasn't planning to reset or anything with the press - I guess I didn't mention this but I've completed 3x5x115 on press before, just with a very loose back and a bit of resultant lower back pain. So recently I've just been refocusing on squeezing my legs all the way from the ground through the glutes and keeping my abs tight, and I didn't want to drop weight or try to add on, so really what you saw was just a practice set for tightness. Basically what I'm saying is I definitely did not have the right mindset to go for 5 reps, you're right.

To add to that, this is the first time I've ever seen myself pressing, and like you said it felt like the bar was moving very slowly when the video showed it actually had pretty good speed through the whole set. So what I'm taking away from this video is my tightness is good with my newfound focus on it, the bar often moves faster than it feels, and from now on I can go back to fully committing and just pushing the shit out of it to get done what I need done, which is all the reps every time. Thanks for the feedback!

[todd]

On the presses it looks like you are not really getting under the bar. The bar path isn't straight on all the reps. Move your hips back to shift under the bar, not the bar back. Also, looks like you might be hyper extending a little bit?

Another thing I have found about presses, my form breaks down pretty easy as they get heavy (Rip also talks about this I think). Micro loading can help you maintain good form as you move up.

[simonsky]

on that last rep on the press i saw that yer elbows were bahind teh bar.

[python2705]

Yeah there is a little hyperextension of the lower back on some of these reps, thats actually what was causing me a bit of back pain and prompted me to refocus on technique. I think just more of a conscious effort to keep everything tight - as well as being aggressive with moving myself under the bar vs. the bar over me, like todd said - will keep my elbows where they need to be and my form correct. Not to forget the IMO more important point of getting the right mindset of fucking owning that weight like Robert said, it can only help.