Starting Strength to Losing Weight

[Namo4184]

Hello guys, I've been doing practical programing novice program for a while now. I'v reached my squatting goals, and now I want to get rid of all this fat I've accumulated. I'm spending time figuring out the best way to go about that. Reading the forums, and other resources, here is what I've pieced together for my training.

WeekA

Wed
295x5x2 Low-Bar-Squat
160x5x2 Bench-Press
BWtxFx3 Chin-Up

HIIT Rowing: 1k warm up; 6-12 intervals, 250m:1min30s rest; 1k cool down.


Fri
115x5x2 Overhead-Press
355x5x1 Deadlift
8 Tabata Interval: Front-Squat

Sun
295x3x3 Low-Bar-Squat
160x3x3 Bench press
BWtxFx3 Pull-Up

HIIT Rowing: 1k warm up; 6-12 intervals, 250m:1min30s rest; 1k cool down.


WeekB

Wed
295x5x2 Low-Bar-Squat
115x5x2 Overhead-Press
BWtxFx3 Chin-Up

HIIT Rowing: 1k warm up; 6-12 intervals, 250m:1min30s rest; 1k cool down.


Fri
160x5x2 Bench-Press
355x5x1 Deadlift

8 Tabata Interval: Front-Squat


Sun
295x3x3 Low-Bar-Squat
115x3x3 Overhead-Press
BWtxFx3 Pull-Up

HIIT Rowing: 1k warm up; 6-12 intervals, 250m:1min30s rest; 1k cool down.


As for diet, I'm still trying to figure it out. Right now I live in a coop. That basically means I don't decide what I eat for dinner. I'm looking at portion control strategies and also intermittent fasting for fat loss.

[August West]

Good luck broheim - always interested to see what works for this kind of consolidation period. Can't suggest anything personally there, but the kind of rowing your plan has is something I may try too when the time comes. Got to have those settling plateaus in the training period sometime. Have a quick and clean one and get that squat into the threes [Edit: and above] for good.

[damiona]

I take it you were at a calorie surplus while reaching your squat goals so why don't you just eat regular for a while and see how that goes? Looks like you're still doing a lot with the extra metcon work so you could see weight loss just with that.

[Nauticus]

Depending on the severity of your caloric deficit, the amount of volume you've listed will be extremely difficult. I say this from experience doing a PSMF cut a while ago: after one work set of squats, you'll feel like you're gonna pass out. You might want to keep it to one set per exercise, cause you're not gonna have nearly as much energy as you think

[gzt]

Are you sure you hit your strength goals?

Anyway. Losing fat is mostly diet. Keeping muscle and strength means you need to have high intensity (ie, %age of 1RM in your lifts). Sacrifice volume if recovery is too low. Keep in mind that caloric deficit = less recovery ability. Cardio results in losing weight, not necessarily fat. The thing about tabatas and HIIT is that, while they're trendy, they're very stressful, and you need to recover from stress, and caloric deficits mean it's harder to recover from stress. But, well, try it and see what works.

[coreJack]

As others have said, if you go into a big deficit, you'll have to cut way back on either volume or intensity. Cut the volume so you can keep the hard earned muscle.

Or you could just go to maintenance and keep the volume and intensity (but probably can't increase either) and let the training and conditioning work take care of a good chunk of the fat. Once that stalls out, then you can move into a deficit.

[Namo4184]

Thank you for the support guys.

My current theory of fat loss is that it's better to burn off the fat, than starve the fat. Seeing as I'm lifting weights, maybe this changes things. If its really the case that cardio is worthless, I'll stop and just do portion control and intermittent fasting to cut calories. I've done intermittent fasting in the past and saw permanent fat loss.

What is a way to reduce my volume with out reducing intensity? 2x5 vs 3x3. I figure that they can't be much different. Since I'm going to go back to 3x5 after I reach my fat loss goals, I figure I might as well do 2x5.

I have my reservations about HIIT and Tabata. I mean it's in all the major magazines so it must be effective right? :-p But I do want to focus more on building my anaerobic capacity over my aerobic capacity so HIIT and Tabata make sense.

Thanks again.

[gzt]

Thank you for the support guys.

My current theory of fat loss is that it's better to burn off the fat, than starve the fat. Seeing as I'm lifting weights, maybe this changes things. If its really the case that cardio is worthless, I'll stop and just do portion control and intermittent fasting to cut calories. I've done intermittent fasting in the past and saw permanent fat loss.

What is a way to reduce my volume with out reducing intensity? 2x5 vs 3x3. I figure that they can't be much different. Since I'm going to go back to 3x5 after I reach my fat loss goals, I figure I might as well do 2x5.

I have my reservations about HIIT and Tabata. I mean it's in all the major magazines so it must be effective right? :-p But I do want to focus more on building my anaerobic capacity over my aerobic capacity so HIIT and Tabata make sense.

Thanks again.
Cardio isn't worthless. It makes you lose weight. But it seems to be weight, not just fat. I recommend browsing around Lyle McDonald's site if you're interested in losing fat, there's some good free stuff. Also, this site has some information about losing fat and building muscle you may find interesting if you poke around and such: http://www.ampedtraining.com/articles/contest-preparation-naturals-part-1/

Reducing volume without reducing intensity means working at a high percentage of your 1RM, but not doing too much work with it. So instead of grinding out a maximal 3x5, doing 5 with that weight or a little more.

[msingh]

This is very close to something I came up with too, very interesting. Basically something like:

Mon
Squat
Bench/Press
Pullups/Chins

Wed
Press/Bench
Powercleans
Deadlift
Front squat tabata

Fri
Squat
Bench/press
Chins/Pullups

The reason I have 4 exercises set for wed is because tabatas are pretty short (< 5 mins). I replace the backsquat with powercleans because squatting heavy 3 times is too hard on deficit. They're also good for conditioning and also they're so cool. Powercleans before deadlifts server as a deadlift warmup. Being fresher for overhead lifts works well on wed too, and, bigger jumps on the powerclean can be taken if you havent been tasked with heavy squats. Lets see how it works out in practice, i'm beginning this next week and will document it on my training log.

[Kincain]

Are you sure you hit your strength goals?

Anyway. Losing fat is mostly diet. Keeping muscle and strength means you need to have high intensity (ie, %age of 1RM in your lifts). Sacrifice volume if recovery is too low. Keep in mind that caloric deficit = less recovery ability. Cardio results in losing weight, not necessarily fat. The thing about tabatas and HIIT is that, while they're trendy, they're very stressful, and you need to recover from stress, and caloric deficits mean it's harder to recover from stress. But, well, try it and see what works.

I agree, I'm not a big pro of the high intensity rowing after strength training. I'd suggest, If you have the time, to separate the two. Either on different days, or on the day it self.

I was a competitive rower so this is more of a personal opinion, make it more an endurance effort than high intensity. Aim for 3 times 20 minutes, 2 times 30 minutes, but most importantly get coaching. As we all know from the books of rip, technique is important, this will surely help making mistakes that will lead to injury. But this is ofcourse completely dependant of your personal situation and schedule.

[Mr.City]

I think we might need more details, namely how calories you're eating, weight/height, etc.

[gzt]

I agree, I'm not a big pro of the high intensity rowing after strength training. I'd suggest, If you have the time, to separate the two. Either on different days, or on the day it self.

I was a competitive rower so this is more of a personal opinion, make it more an endurance effort than high intensity. Aim for 3 times 20 minutes, 2 times 30 minutes, but most importantly get coaching. As we all know from the books of rip, technique is important, this will surely help making mistakes that will lead to injury. But this is ofcourse completely dependant of your personal situation and schedule.
Indeed, since bad form with rowing can mean you frig up your back.

[PVC]

I agree, I'm not a big pro of the high intensity rowing after strength training. I'd suggest, If you have the time, to separate the two. Either on different days, or on the day it self.

I was a competitive rower so this is more of a personal opinion, make it more an endurance effort than high intensity. Aim for 3 times 20 minutes, 2 times 30 minutes, but most importantly get coaching.

Agree on the coaching, but as a former university-level rower who quit the team I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the endurance suggestion.

HIIT isn't a good idea on a calorie deficit when you're also trying to strength train, but relatively high intensity is still a lot more useful than low intensity endurance stuff - both for increasing your metabolism and for sports performance.

If you're rowing 3x20 min you're doing the metabolic equivalent of going for a long run, which is certainly not ideal when trying to maintain muscle mass. I would suggest something more like 3x1000m intervals, with a 3 minute rest in between each interval and holding a 2k pace. It's a short workout (the actual time spent rowing is less than 6 minutes) and a pretty good level of intensity, but you shouldn't be dead by the end of it.

[Namo4184]

Age 25
Male

I was 217.5 pounds But I'm sure I'm heavier now. I'm 6' 1.5" feet

355 Deadlift
295 Squat
155 Bench
110 OHP

As for the rowing, I'm considering doing it more as an endurance work out. On top of that, I'm thinking of doing it 6 days a week. I typically do cardio after I lift so I'm used to the volume. But I haven't done high intensity work before.

Calories in, right now I have no idea. I life in a Coop. This means I eat whatever is on the menu. I basically go by feel and food type. Pure carbs eat a lot. Carbs and fat eat a lot less. All fat eat very little. I do have portion control techniques I can apply to control the calories, I also have Intermittent fasting at my disposal if it proves necessary.

[Kincain]

Agree on the coaching, but as a former university-level rower who quit the team I'm going to have to vehemently disagree with the endurance suggestion.

HIIT isn't a good idea on a calorie deficit when you're also trying to strength train, but relatively high intensity is still a lot more useful than low intensity endurance stuff - both for increasing your metabolism and for sports performance.

If you're rowing 3x20 min you're doing the metabolic equivalent of going for a long run, which is certainly not ideal when trying to maintain muscle mass. I would suggest something more like 3x1000m intervals, with a 3 minute rest in between each interval and holding a 2k pace. It's a short workout (the actual time spent rowing is less than 6 minutes) and a pretty good level of intensity, but you shouldn't be dead by the end of it.


granted that it would not be ideal, but (and I may be totally wrong here) with adequate food you won't destroy your muscle mass. This is that there are fairly big rowers, not 70sbig, but their work load is far greater than 2x30, two times in the week. Nevertheless 3x1000 what you suggested would also certainly do the trick. Maybe I'm getting too much off topic here but it all depends on you heart rate.

[ZKP]

It's what you eat. All of it.

first point you might consider is you can't outrun the dinner table, so control calories at the gate i.e. your mouth. Forget about "burning" off fat. Numericaly you will lose.

This ties into my second point. You can eat to be strong and gain or you can eat to be lean or pretty as I like to call it. Trying to do both successfully at the same time is a hopelessly complicated task which will only work if you chose your parents well....If you want to run in two directions at the same time, good luck but it's not gonna work. If you could do that type of shit you'd already know it.

Control excess calories by eliminating unneeded carbs and fats. Eat plenty of protein and veg, multiple small meals throughout the day. Blah blah blah.....
Focus on strength maintenance, meaning light loading or progression. I did'nt say light weight. Try to hold on to what you have. and drink shitloads of water.
You will get smaller, you will lose size and genetics/god willing not lose too much muscle in the process. But you will become pretty. lighter, might even get more powerfull (strength/weight ratio) but as far as limit strength goes, your after something different for the time being so don't worry about it. Tabatta or magic spells or animal sacrifice wont make a difference. Do it if you like it and it serves it's purpous. Sprints, bike, running, prowler, whatever, as long as you do it...none of that shit matters at all next to what you eat...good luck

[DaveN]

My first thought is that your strength training volume looks low, even if you are just trying to maintain what you have, or minimize strength loss. Strength training is one of the best ways to burn calories, and I don't think you should short yourself there if losing fat is a goal. Keeing myself at 3 sets of 5 on all of my compound movements, and then adding two intense GPP-type workouts a week (I do rosstraining.com stuff, but your rowing may work for you) made it easy for me to lose fat the last time I decided to do it, and I didn't have to do much more than eat a "normal" amount (vs. eating to gain).

But that's me. If your plan works for you, or is working for you, though, I say go with it.

[Brenden]

Keeing myself at 3 sets of 5 on all of my compound movements, and then adding two intense GPP-type workouts a week (I do rosstraining.com stuff, but your rowing may work for you) made it easy for me to lose fat the last time I decided to do it, and I didn't have to do much more than eat a "normal" amount (vs. eating to gain).

Did you keep the weights on each lift flat, or did you try to progress in weight during this process? Did you not see any recovery problems?

[DaveN]

I tried to progress, but found that I missed a lot of reps on my press and bench. Overall, I didn't add much strength (I added a little), but I didn't lose any.

I slept a LOT (9 hours usually) and that seemed to help me recover well.

[Namo4184]

This new work out plan is based on the following:

--During a caloric deficit, recovery is a limited resource.

--High weightlifting volume is harder to recover from than high weightlifting intensity.

--Cardio over an hour long can cause muscle loss.

--HIIT is hard to recover from than steady state cardio.

--My current goal is fat loss.

Mon: Rest

Tue: 45 min Treadmill

Wed: 295x5x1 LSq, >>>x5x3 OHP/BP, 5x3 Chin-Ups, 45 Min Rower

Thu: 45 min Treadmill

Fri: >>>x5x3 OHP/BP, 5x3 Chin-Ups, 45 Min Rower

Sat: 45 min Treadmill

Sun: 355x5x1 DL, >>>x5x3 OHP/BP, 5x3 Pull-Ups, 45 Min Rower

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

You squatted the same weight for the same reps 4 times in a row. THat is an ineffective strength training routine. You are also not doing SS.

If you want to lose weight, you HAVE to clean up your diet. What do you eat and how much? Not carbs, protein or fat, I mean what did you specifically eat for each meal.

[Mr.City]

Needs more cardio.

[Namo4184]

You squatted the same weight for the same reps 4 times in a row. THat is an ineffective strength training routine. You are also not doing SS.

If you want to lose weight, you HAVE to clean up your diet. What do you eat and how much? Not carbs, protein or fat, I mean what did you specifically eat for each meal.
Well I've been reading the book "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle." According to the author, the way to lose fat is to create a small caloric deficit through diet and large caloric deficit through aerobic exercise. He recommends 6+ days a week of cardio. He even goes as far as to recommend 2 a day cardio sessions.

Diet wise I eat whatever is available to me. I try for this: fibrous vegetable (e.g. broccoli), water bound starch (e.g. brown rice), and protein (e.g. chicken). The exception is breakfast which is always fruit and oatmeal.

I don't actually eat that way because people where I live cook whatever they want. They seem to have an obsession with cheese at every meal.



Needs more cardio.
I know you are joking but I'm considering doing 2 a days with cardio. that would give me 12, 45 minute cardio sessions a week. That would be a total of 540 minutes of cario a week. That would also be equal to roughly 6480 calories strictly from aerobic exercise.

Now add on top of that caloric restriction and weight lifiting and you have pounds coming off.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"
Diet wise I eat whatever is available to me. I try for this: fibrous vegetable (e.g. broccoli), water bound starch (e.g. brown rice), and protein (e.g. chicken). The exception is breakfast which is always fruit and oatmeal.

I don't actually eat that way because people where I live cook whatever they want. They seem to have an obsession with cheese at every meal."

So how do you eat? You say you eat x then say you don't actually eat that way.

Lets try this again, what did you eat today. Just today. Be specific. Example, today I had

Shake, 4 large strawberries, handful of blueberries, 2 scoops of protein powder, 1 quart raw milk

lunch .6 lbs of lamb, an apple, a pear a handful of grapes

lunch 2 .6 lbs of lamb, half a zuchinni cooked in bacon grease

[Namo4184]

Also, the rational, behind my non-increasing squatting, is that squatting is too hard to recover from. I'm doing a shit ton of running, so there just isn't much recovery for squatting. I am continuing to progress with my upper body lifts. I don't expect any progress, but If I'm going to have any caloric excess happen, that caloric excess will go straight to my guns.

After I get to my desired body fat levels, I'll probably won't bring my squat up unless I have a reason to be stronger. I'm not an athlete, I'm not a body builder, I just like being fairly strong and healthy. At what point are you strong enough?

For me that is at: 2.0x Deadlift, > 1.5x Squat, > 1.0x Overhead/Bench Press, and 0.5x Weighted Pull-Ups.

At 300 pounds, my squat will be over 1.5 once I get my body weight from 232 to 195.

[Namo4184]

"
Diet wise I eat whatever is available to me. I try for this: fibrous vegetable (e.g. broccoli), water bound starch (e.g. brown rice), and protein (e.g. chicken). The exception is breakfast which is always fruit and oatmeal.

I don't actually eat that way because people where I live cook whatever they want. They seem to have an obsession with cheese at every meal."

So how do you eat? You say you eat x then say you don't actually eat that way.

Lets try this again, what did you eat today. Just today. Be specific. Example, today I had

Shake, 4 large strawberries, handful of blueberries, 2 scoops of protein powder, 1 quart raw milk

lunch .6 lbs of lamb, an apple, a pear a handful of grapes

lunch 2 .6 lbs of lamb, half a zuchinni cooked in bacon grease

Breakfast I had 3/4 a cup of oat meal in 2 cups of whole milk. A table spoon of sugar 120 calories worth of raisons and a medium banana.

Lunch: Taco Bell: Fresco bean burrito (340 calories), Caramel Apple Empanada (330 calories), 5 layer bean burrito (550 calories).

Dinner: Soon to eat: Catfish, bread, and salad.

It's spring break so nobody is cooking right now. By the end of the day I should have about 2800 calories. I'm also hoping to go on a run later this evening.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

You are asking weight and fat loss question while eating taco bell? A table spoon of sugar while trying to cut fat? ANd you are going to go all day with out meat, until dinner?

[Namo4184]

You are asking weight and fat loss question while eating taco bell? A table spoon of sugar while trying to cut fat? ANd you are going to go all day with out meat, until dinner?

Taco bell isn't that bad if you eat the right thing. It may not be a table spoon of sugar, that's just a rough estimate. The big picture is that I'm eating oatmeal. If a little sugar makes the medicine go down, so be it. The taco bell had some meat. Beans are pretty good substitute for meat any way. I generally don't like to eat a lot of meat.

My lifts haven't suffered form not eating large amounts of meat so I think it's fine.

[jayknow05]

Breakfast I had 3/4 a cup of oat meal in 2 cups of whole milk. A table spoon of sugar 120 calories worth of raisons and a medium banana.

Lunch: Taco Bell: Fresco bean burrito (340 calories), Caramel Apple Empanada (330 calories), 5 layer bean burrito (550 calories).

Dinner: Soon to eat: Catfish, bread, and salad.

It's spring break so nobody is cooking right now. By the end of the day I should have about 2800 calories. I'm also hoping to go on a run later this evening.

Sounds like you're in college, and are eating in a dining hall. You are missing out on a supreme bulking oppurtunity here with probably a better equiped gym in terms of powerlifting and olympic lifting than most of us have access to and an unlimited meal plan?! If I were you I'd get my strength up to the level I want, disregard my bf% (fat guys get laid too), and cut later if that is still my desire.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Taco bell isn't that bad if you eat the right thing. It may not be a table spoon of sugar, that's just a rough estimate. The big picture is that I'm eating oatmeal. If a little sugar makes the medicine go down, so be it. The taco bell had some meat. Beans are pretty good substitute for meat any way. I generally don't like to eat a lot of meat."

Fast food is crap and loaded with shitty carbs. Beans are a horrible substitution for meat, since the protein in them is largely unavailable. I also wouldn't call oatmeal medicine.

If you want to cut fat, ditch the grains (oatmeal as well) and eat veggies, meat, fruits and nuts.

[Namo4184]

"Taco bell isn't that bad if you eat the right thing. It may not be a table spoon of sugar, that's just a rough estimate. The big picture is that I'm eating oatmeal. If a little sugar makes the medicine go down, so be it. The taco bell had some meat. Beans are pretty good substitute for meat any way. I generally don't like to eat a lot of meat."

Fast food is crap and loaded with shitty carbs. Beans are a horrible substitution for meat, since the protein in them is largely unavailable. I also wouldn't call oatmeal medicine.

If you want to cut fat, ditch the grains (oatmeal as well) and eat veggies, meat, fruits and nuts.
Thanks, but I'm not into the whole paleo/low fat thing. I actually measured my results with different macro nutrient ratios and I perform best on a carb rich diet.

I'm mor concerned if my work out programming has enough stimulation for muscle retention.

[August West]

I'm mor concerned if my work out programming has enough stimulation for muscle retention.

You might check out this article: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/02/training-down-anthony-ditillo.html

It outlines one way the author lost weight while maintaining strength. I'm not an expert and can't vouch for his approach. May try it someday. But you might think about what he says here: "In short, for the lifter, counting calories to lose weight will not work!"

And to show he knows both sides of things, he also wrote this one about gaining:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/my-experience-with-weight-gain/

Money quote: "I can't see why anyone can't gain all the weight he wants."

[Namo4184]

You might check out this article: http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/02/training-down-anthony-ditillo.html

It outlines one way the author lost weight while maintaining strength. I'm not an expert and can't vouch for his approach. May try it someday. But you might think about what he says here: "In short, for the lifter, counting calories to lose weight will not work!"

And to show he knows both sides of things, he also wrote this one about gaining:

http://muscleandbrawn.com/my-experience-with-weight-gain/

Money quote: "I can't see why anyone can't gain all the weight he wants."
Thank you.

[Baker]

you mentioned earlier about intermittent fasting & it's good results for you...why are you not doing this now? i'm curious as i'm currently trying IF. either way, good luck with the fat loss, i have no helpful advice as i've been very unsuccessful with fat loss in the past.

[LudwigVan]

Thanks, but I'm not into the whole paleo/low fat thing. I actually measured my results with different macro nutrient ratios and I perform best on a carb rich diet.

Presumably you mistyped, but the Paleo diet is not low fat. It's high in fat and low in carbs.

[Tim Lofton]

... Beans are a horrible substitution for meat, since the protein in them is largely unavailable...

Really, why is the protein largely (by largely I presume more than 50%) unavailable? I understand that there is unsoluble fiber that passes through, but not sure where the protein gets hung up at. Thanks.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"whole paleo/low fat thing"

I have never suggested low fat anything to anybody.

Since there is more fiber than protein, the protein ends up behind the fiber and isn't able to be accessed. This is the difference with soy, there is more protein than fiber. Beyond that, I'm sure there is something to do with the structure of the protein, but I'm not sure what it is.

I like beans for carbs since they are low glycemic, but not for protein.

from webpages.charter.net/edsouza/WLS/Proteinseminarpaper.doc




Protein Source
BV
Whey Protein Isolate Blends 100-159
Whey Concentrate (Lactalbumin) 104
Whole Egg 100
Cow's Milk 91
Egg White (Albumin) 88
Fish 83
Beef 80
Chicken 79
Casein (a protein from milk) 77
Rice 74
Soy 59
Wheat 54
Beans 49
Peanuts 43

[Namo4184]

you mentioned earlier about intermittent fasting & it's good results for you...why are you not doing this now? i'm curious as i'm currently trying IF. either way, good luck with the fat loss, i have no helpful advice as i've been very unsuccessful with fat loss in the past.
During intermittent fasting, I'm foggy headed. This isn't a big deal, except that I have to study. Don't have time to be foggy headed. Also, it is hard to be completly disciplined for the complete time 24hrs.

During fast, I drink green tea with a very tiny amount of sugar and it makes a huge difference. Instead of intermittent fasting I just eat 3 meals a day. It's easier for me to control calorie intake that way. I may allow my self one cheat snack.

You can lose body fat. The only thing that has worked for me, is combining diet, weight training, and aerobic exercise (HIIT is a waste of time).



Presumably you mistyped, but the Paleo diet is not low fat. It's high in fat and low in carbs.
Thank you for pointing that out, I did miss type. But I think love fat is shit too. The whole deal is restricitng calories. You can easily restrict calories by eliminating food groups, that's why diets like paleo, or McDougal both work.



Really, why is the protein largely (by largely I presume more than 50%) unavailable? I understand that there is unsoluble fiber that passes through, but not sure where the protein gets hung up at. Thanks.
It's not. the whole bio avilability of non meat proteins is based on the false premise that an egg is the perfect protein. This is why eggs get a score of 100. Rice and beans makes for very good protein source. Beans are high in lysine, where as most plant proteins are low in lysine. Notable exception are Quinoa, hemp and soy protein.


"whole paleo/low fat thing"

I have never suggested low fat anything to anybody.

Since there is more fiber than protein, the protein ends up behind the fiber and isn't able to be accessed. This is the difference with soy, there is more protein than fiber. Beyond that, I'm sure there is something to do with the structure of the protein, but I'm not sure what it is.

I like beans for carbs since they are low glycemic, but not for protein.

from webpages.charter.net/edsouza/WLS/Proteinseminarpaper.doc




Protein Source
BV
Whey Protein Isolate Blends 100-159
Whey Concentrate (Lactalbumin) 104
Whole Egg 100
Cow's Milk 91
Egg White (Albumin) 88
Fish 83
Beef 80
Chicken 79
Casein (a protein from milk) 77
Rice 74
Soy 59
Wheat 54
Beans 49
Peanuts 43



Last I check fiber was good for you! I find it hard to believe that it is trapping protein.

[Baker]

During intermittent fasting, I'm foggy headed. This isn't a big deal, except that I have to study. Don't have time to be foggy headed. Also, it is hard to be completly disciplined for the complete time 24hrs.

During fast, I drink green tea with a very tiny amount of sugar and it makes a huge difference. Instead of intermittent fasting I just eat 3 meals a day. It's easier for me to control calorie intake that way. I may allow my self one cheat snack.

You can lose body fat. The only thing that has worked for me, is combining diet, weight training, and aerobic exercise (HIIT is a waste of time).


so it looks like you did the 'eat stop eat' type IF, where you take a 24hr fast 1-2 times per week? i am doing something more similar to what you are doing currently, except i am having 2 meals per day (i only started in mid-feb)...so i fast 16-18hrs/day. i have lost 10 lbs so far. i do not do any HIIT, haven't for years, i walk my daughter a few times/week for aerobic...that's enough for now.

[Namo4184]

so it looks like you did the 'eat stop eat' type IF, where you take a 24hr fast 1-2 times per week? i am doing something more similar to what you are doing currently, except i am having 2 meals per day (i only started in mid-feb)...so i fast 16-18hrs/day. i have lost 10 lbs so far. i do not do any HIIT, haven't for years, i walk my daughter a few times/week for aerobic...that's enough for now.
Hope it works out. That's pretty good there, you can tell which IF i'm doing!

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Last I check fiber was good for you! I find it hard to believe that it is trapping protein"

You find it hard to believe that insoluble fiber (fiber that can't be digested) is interfering with protein absorption? Either way, the process is irrelevant, the fact remains that little of the protein in beans is absorbed.

And the point is not to restrict calories, the point is to consume less calories than you burn. These are related but not the same thing.

What you eat (macro nutrients, food quality, etc) and how much you eat will affect how many calories you burn. Reducing how much you eat will also reduce the amount of calories burned, changing what you eat will also affect this.

Even more so the important point is YOU ARE EATING FUCKING TACO BELL. No diet expert anyway would suggest taco bell for anyone trying to lose weight. Any fast food for that matter.

[Namo4184]

"Last I check fiber was good for you! I find it hard to believe that it is trapping protein"

You find it hard to believe that insoluble fiber (fiber that can't be digested) is interfering with protein absorption? Either way, the process is irrelevant, the fact remains that little of the protein in beans is absorbed.

And the point is not to restrict calories, the point is to consume less calories than you burn. These are related but not the same thing.

What you eat (macro nutrients, food quality, etc) and how much you eat will affect how many calories you burn. Reducing how much you eat will also reduce the amount of calories burned, changing what you eat will also affect this.

Even more so the important point is YOU ARE EATING FUCKING TACO BELL. No diet expert anyway would suggest taco bell for anyone trying to lose weight. Any fast food for that matter.

You say I'm eaitng taco bell, but I lost 10 pounds eating taco bell and wendy's. TO me it just comes down to eating high fiber choices and watery carbs.

At taco bell, I would typically eat 2 fresco bean burritos and 1 caramel apple empanada. That is almost 100% carbs and protein. The beans digest very slowly, this means you have a constant blood sugar for a long long time. This means you are less hungry. Which causes you to eat less.

The caramel apple empanda is there to increase blood sugar. The increase in blood sugar replaces muscle glycogen. If I eat only the fresco bean burritos I feel tired.

To me its about the big picture. The main problem with taco bell is the salts.

I use the same thing at Wendy's. I'll eat a baked potato and a chili. The potato fills me up with energy, the chili has beans and the meat you like so much :-).

I won't argue a about the bio availability of protein in beans except to say I've gained plenty fine eating beans and lots of fiber. Experts be damned!!

To me the secret to fat loss when it comes to diet are the following.

--Fiber. Foods with fiber make you lose weight.

--Watery Fibrous Carbs: Oatmeal, Potato and Skin, Pasta

--Vegetables

--Limit Sugar, Salt, Refined Oil, and Alcohol.

--Drink a glass of water before you eat.


Any way, the point is you can't argue with results. I'm already down 4 pounds in less than a week. Granted its mostly water weight, I'm still making progress.

[Chewie_jrc]

Looks like you have your mind made up. Best of luck, keep us posted on your progress. I for one am very interested in the Taco Bell Diet efficay.

[Namo4184]

Looks like you have your mind made up. Best of luck, keep us posted on your progress. I for one am very interested in the Taco Bell Diet efficay.
Lol, I will.

My latest modification to the taco bell diet is as follows.

Fresco Bean Burrito + Fresco cruncy taco + Caramel Apple Empanada.

As for the milk, I changed it to include one slice of whole wheat bread as well.

[H.M.]

Well that sucks.

I got all emotionally invested in 4 pages of this guy's diet plan only to find out it consists of cruncy tacos and Caramel Apple Empanada. :(

[Namo4184]

Well that sucks.

I got all emotionally invested in 4 pages of this guy's diet plan only to find out it consists of cruncy tacos and Caramel Apple Empanada. :(
I don't actually eat like that anymore. But you can eat like that and lose fat. I'm just saying that it's about the calories. Read the intermittent fasting one I posted for a loosely accurate depiction of what I'm currently doing.

Why don't you post up what you are doing, I for one would love to read it!

[Baker]

But you can eat like that and lose fat. I'm just saying that it's about the calories.

this is what i thought too, except maybe try to keep protein intake somewhat high.

[Patrick L.]

I don't actually eat like that anymore. But you can eat like that and lose fat. I'm just saying that it's about the calories. it!

I think you will find that many people would disagree it is about "the calories"...at least in terms of quantity. You have completely confused me with what your original stated goals were and your steadfast adherence to what you think is right, when many people have suggested otherwise.

For myself, I do Dr. Sears Zone plan...I can shift my "blocks" higher or lower as needed, is easy to follow, and it is a healthy diet overall. As with most things, simplicity is usually the best course...

And I know you are defending your Taco Bell meal, but you must be able to see how crazy it seems for a person wanting to lose fat to be eating at a place with food that is undesirably processed, filled with preservatives and sodium and typically has high carb content.

[Baker]

we're talking fat loss not 'healthy' eating, correct?

[Namo4184]

I think you will find that many people would disagree it is about "the calories"...at least in terms of quantity. You have completely confused me with what your original stated goals were and your steadfast adherence to what you think is right, when many people have suggested otherwise.

For myself, I do Dr. Sears Zone plan...I can shift my "blocks" higher or lower as needed, is easy to follow, and it is a healthy diet overall. As with most things, simplicity is usually the best course...

And I know you are defending your Taco Bell meal, but you must be able to see how crazy it seems for a person wanting to lose fat to be eating at a place with food that is undesirably processed, filled with preservatives and sodium and typically has high carb content.
I get a lot of flack for having wild ideas, personally I think it's because I think for my self and put no man's head above my own. There are those who would disagree with this notion and just say "I'm crazy' (those people are unimportant!).

People disagree with the notion that calories are the determining factor for weight loss. I have consistently reproduced the phenomenom in my self. Granted I'm a small sample set, the idea that you must burn more calories than you take in is not my own. It's a researched topic, and has been shown to be true. There are those in the scientific community who disagree with this notion too (Dr. Sears apparently). That's what makes all this so interesting. So if people disagree with the idea that burning more calories than you take in is the deciding factor of weight loss, then that is fine by me. I find it interesting.

My goal is fat loss, but we live in the real world. Shit happens, I cave into conveniences. For that reason, I typically have a convenience that will not deter me to far from my goals. I explored various fast food restaurants and came up with meals from there that could roughly substitute a meal. I found that in the following: Taco bell - Fresco Bean Burrito + Fresco Crunchy Taco + Caramel Apple Empanada; Wendy's - 2 Baked Potatoes + A Small Chili. I've also had success with subway.

Now, is the "Taco Bell Plan" the best food I can eat? Absolutely not! But it's not that bad either. There is a psychological side to fat loss. Namely I'm speaking about hunger. The way I structure my meals is to give me enough immediate energy, while simultaneously giving me a long time stead blood glucose level. From the scientific literature I've absorbed, that means fibrous foods and a little fat. The "Taco Bell Diet" meets these requirements, and thus prevents me from over eating.

People have commented on my "Taco Bell Plan" and the general consensus seems to be disagreement. But why hasn't anyone thought to ask themselves, "why does it work for this guy?" "What is the truth in it?" Eating like this, I took my squat from 135 to 300x5x3 and my deadlift to 355x5x1. Are people still going to tell me I'm not getting enough protein? Eating like this, I took my body weight from 228.25 to 217.5. Are people still going to tell me all the carbs are making me fat? I believe in being open minded and following results, not what some expert has to say.

I've played the low-fat game, I've played the no-meat/low protein game, I refuse to play the low-carb game. I've seen with my own eyes what this is about, and it's about getting people to buy your shit. I'm interested in results, not being part of a movement. I follow Rippetoes starting strength because I've seen the results. I trust his opinion on basic barbell opinion more than I would trust the Surgeon General's or some "brain" with 7 PHDs.

From what I've gathered in my short years, in the end, diets make you lose fat when they restrict calories, there is no magic. Whoever disagree with this, I find them interesting and would like to see what in their personal experience makes them disagree.

Finally in the thread, my question was strictly about how to hold onto lean muscle while under caloric restriction. I didn't ask anyone for diet advice. I can see why it came up and I appreciate the concern. But I feel like I've figured that part out for my self.

[Namo4184]

we're talking fat loss not 'healthy' eating, correct?
I'll try lol, have you noticed any improvement from keeping your protein higher?

[Baker]

namo, i was replying to the taco bell haters with that question. i'm new to this weight-loss thing, but from what i've been reading, basically a calorie is a calorie, & to lose weight, lower the calories...it doesn't matter if they come from taco bell or whole foods grocery store. you seem to think this is true too if i am reading your posts correctly. if one is looking for health, then that's possibly a different story, but your thread specified losing weight, not health, so i'm puzzled why people are negatively commenting on you having taco bell for convenince from time to time. however, like i said, this is still new to me, so i could very well be wrong in my understanding.

since starting IF (7 weeks now), i've had 2 chocolate chip pancakes every weekend, lots of butter & aunt jemima's super-extra hfcs syrup on the pancake. ice cream with brownies & at first chocolate chip cookies after every meal or chocolate pieces. this week i have cut out all this to leave for just the weekend, but just because i don't think this is very healthy when i'm only eating 2x/day & to make room for more protein. i am now at 213, down from 229, eating this way. so i'm getting more and more convinced about the lower calories / losing weight thing.

i have tried to increase protein as well as from what i can gather, this helps you lose less muscle during a calorie deficit.

here is a good article: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

[Namo4184]

I was actually replying to quote below, but I think I just hit the wrong button. My apologies.

this is what i thought too, except maybe try to keep protein intake somewhat high.

Thanks for the link

[Mcpie]

I get a lot of flack for having wild ideas, personally I think it's because I think for my self and put no man's head above my own. There are those who would disagree with this notion and just say "I'm crazy' (those people are unimportant!).

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but to assume there aren't people who know more than you about a topic, and thus not change your way of thinking when you identify such people is pretty silly.

This may not be one of those cases, and if it works for you, have fun, but I don't think Venturo advocates that food choice is irrelevent (in fact I think he specifically states in that book that it is very important).

I do know that I've tried the excess "cardio" method, and I've tried the lifting/very clean diet method, and the latter worked much better from a pure fat loss perspective. I lost about 40-45 pounds without any "cardio" at all, though I've since joined Crossfit (I realize many people here have issues with them) and thus am now doing movements that are a bit more varied/strength focused.

For me, a strict Paleo diet saw the weight absolutely fall off at first, with little change in programming. It has since slowed down as these things are prone to do and as I become less of a fat ass, but I would strongly consider it or a derivative. I am no expert on these things, I just offer an anecdote to counter yours :)

[Namo4184]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but to assume there aren't people who know more than you about a topic, and thus not change your way of thinking when you identify such people is pretty silly.
I said what I meant, I meant what I said. Don't interpret it--read it. For further clarification, I will expound on my meaning for you. Yes there are people who might have more tibits of information in their head. No that does not mean I automatically give such a person authority to think for me. Does that make sense? I critically evaluate everything, no matter what degree or "expert" status someone has.

To give you an example close to home, for many years, Dr.'s and PHd's have said, "Don't eat fat! You'll get heart disease and die. You'll become obese and die." Years later we have experts recanting those statements. Now I respect that people are willing to come out and speak strongly, and I respect when people can admit their wrongs. Don't expect me to step on the roller coaster with the mainstream community though.



I do know that I've tried the excess "cardio" method, and I've tried the lifting/very clean diet method, and the latter worked much better from a pure fat loss perspective. I lost about 40-45 pounds without any "cardio" at all, though I've since joined Crossfit (I realize many people here have issues with them) and thus am now doing movements that are a bit more varied/strength focused.

Have you tried doing the lifting weights + cardio + diet method. Because that is what I'm advocating.



For me, a strict Paleo diet saw the weight absolutely fall off at first, with little change in programming. It has since slowed down as these things are prone to do and as I become less of a fat ass, but I would strongly consider it or a derivative. I am no expert on these things, I just offer an anecdote to counter yours :)
I never said paleo doesn't work. I'm not saying zone doesn't work. I'm saying that these diets work because they cause your to eat less calories than you are burning. I'm saying a low fat diet of the same calories can give you the same fat loss.

The hormone stuff is the psychological aspect of dieting. For instance, your fat cells produce leptin. The smaller these cells get, the less they produce. Your body responds by increasing your hunger hormone (ghrelin). This makes you eat more and nullify the effects of your diet. Salt makes your thirsty, people mistake thirst for hunger and over eat. Insuline crashes make you hungry, this makes you eat more. I acknowledge these sorts of things, while simultaneously acknowledging that a calorie is a calorie. But the mentioned factors make adherence to different diets harder of easier.

P.S. please read the intermittent fasting thread for what I'm actually doing.

[Baker]

good post Namo4184, especially this part, "I critically evaluate everything, no matter what degree or "expert" status someone has."