No Bench Press Programming

[Dastardly]

I have chronic shoulder issues which get in the way of me bench pressing effectively. I have bone spurs which cause pinching and tearing of rotator cuff components while bench pressing. This is always the limiting factor, never strength. So I am unable to work with weights that will cause adaptation.

It seems I have been wasting a lot of time with the bench, so I am toying with the idea of removing the bench press from my regular training. SS suggests that Dip's are the best replacement for the bench press. This is handy as my shoulders love dips, they actually feel better whenever I do them. The ROM is in a position that causes no impingement. So I am really able to push myself productively.

I was just wondering if the same rep/set scheme is appropriate for dips?

3x5 seems like it might not suit dips so well. Perhaps something like 3x8 might be better?

I was just wondering if anyone else is training without barbell bench pressing and if they might have some ideas for programming.

I am also able to do dumb bell bench pressing with no problems.

[LudwigVan]

I haven't done this, but if I were replacing my bench with dips, I'd program dips like I would program bench, 3x5 weighted and adding weight each workout. If I were using dips as an assistance exercise, I'd be more likely to treat them the way SS treats chins, doing 3 sets of bodyweight to failure until that became too easy.

[banthafodder]

3x8 is good. You might also consider switching to the overhead press exclusively as well. Dips are an assistance exercise, after all.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

My shoulders do not love dips, but I think you would do them with slightly higher reps due to less muscle being involved. If you can do db bench, I would do those and use dips as an assistance.

What are your goals?

[August West]

I am also able to do dumb bell bench pressing with no problems.

Rip did a useful video on how to rack and unrack the dumbbell bench, in case you haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM5Nw_QBA9A

Might as well keep up the dumbbell bench if it doesn't bother you the way a barbell does. I'm planning to get back into it some more once I move past linear progression; it's a useful exercise.

[Scrofula]

My shoulders do not love dips, but I think you would do them with slightly higher reps due to less muscle being involved. If you can do db bench, I would do those and use dips as an assistance.
Huh. I always thought it was the other way around -- i.e. dips involve more muscles. The Exrx pages seem to support this. Did I misread your post, or was I mistaken?

[Rorschach]

Ah, useful vid. I've been cleaning the dumbells up, then sitting down. Works OK, but bruises the hell out of my chest. ;)

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

THe bench is dominated by the pecs, anterior deltoid and the triceps. While the pecs are involved in dips, not to the degree they are in the bench.

ANother thing I've found between bench and dips is what happens when I add weight. THe number of reps of bench drop off while I increase the bench, where as with dips, there is a very sharp decline in the number of reps.

[Dastardly]

What are your goals?

My goals are to generally get big & strong. Hopefully with some transfer to athleticism. I have never entertained the idea of powerlifting, so I will not particularly miss the barbell bench press too much.

Being able to do so some half decent olympic lifts in the future would be good.

But my short term priority is trying to pack enough meat onto my shoulders that I not longer have the chronic instability and related injuries. I like cycling, yet my left shoulder shifts about in the socket when holding handlebars. I have to keep the shoulder "active" to prevent injury, which is tiring. I also cannot throw a ball hard. Shoulder socket gets jerked, which causes shifting, pain and occasional minor tearing.

[Tiburon]

I have chronic shoulder issues which get in the way of me bench pressing effectively.

Let's get a video, check your form. Are you keeping your shoulders back throughout the set?

[Scrofula]

THe bench is dominated by the pecs, anterior deltoid and the triceps. While the pecs are involved in dips, not to the degree they are in the bench.
On a slight tangent, I've often wondered about the fact that both the press and the bench press work the anterior deltoid harder than the others. None of the common barbell lifts seem to hit the lateral and posterior heads very hard, but they do seem relevant to many athletic activities, including mine (jacket grappling). I'm not at the point yet where I need a lot of accessory work, but I'm wondering whether I'll need to address this at some point in my programming. Something that works the lateral delts seems like it might help the press as well.

[Force Production]

Dastardly, have you tried experimenting with grip width? If you're not going to do any more barbell bench pressing, can't you do more standing presses then, instead of replacing it with dips?

[Dastardly]

Dastardly, have you tried experimenting with grip width? If you're not going to do any more barbell bench pressing, can't you do more standing presses then, instead of replacing it with dips?

I have experimented a lot with grip width, I keep a strong shoulder retraction and make sure that forearms stay vertical. I feel the only bit of technique lacking from the bench is consistency in leg drive, I only rarely get it to work properly.

Standing presses are fine, but it seems that it is an unfavourable choice based on the recommendations in SS.

It seems DB bench or Dips would be more desirable as it easier to load the chest and arms more heavily and intensely than overhead pressing which has the limiting factors of the small shoulder muscles and abdominal stability.

I had thought about alternating DB bench, Dips & push presses but it seems the complexity would be getting way ahead of myself considering I am still a relatively piss-weak novice. I think I would enjoy the variety though.

What is your opinion?

I think doing only presses every session might run into problems because progression is so slow in the standing press. I may end up moving the same weight a lot of times and get problems with recovery.

[Tiburon]

I haven't done this, but if I were replacing my bench with dips, I'd program dips like I would program bench, 3x5 weighted and adding weight each workout. If I were using dips as an assistance exercise, I'd be more likely to treat them the way SS treats chins, doing 3 sets of bodyweight to failure until that became too easy.

I like this idea

[PVC]

I have experimented a lot with grip width

Sorry if you implied this, but have you tried doing narrow-grip bench presses?

[jameson]

Dastardly,

Dips can wreak havoc on your shoulders. You might PM Nisora as he hasn't benched due to his own shoulder issues. Currently, and Rip has advised this as well, Stace has someone put weight plates on his back and does loaded pushups. This "closed chain" exercise has helped him develop quite the chesticles without the barbell and bench.

Best of luck, but be weary of dips if you have shoulder pain,
J.

EDIT: I reread your post where you said dips have a postive effect on your shoulders. I'd still recommend weighted pushups (and dips, I guess) if you definitely can't bench. Clearly, overhead presses are genius.

[Dastardly]

Thanks for your concern jameson, but I think shoulder trouble from dips isnt universal.

Last year I was doing a program with both dips and bench on the same day. Often after feeling like the bench press had wrecked my shoulders, (feeling subluxed and pinched, inflamed ligaments) doing dips after wards would actually make my shoulders feel better again.

My shoulders are held in by far the most stable & consistent position with dips than any other pressing exercise. BW keeps everything in place, actively retracting shoulders is not necessary. The only problem I can forsee is working in the low rep weighted sets. When working at maximal loads on dips it is harder to keep elbows close to body, cheating by leaning back and bouncing out of the bottom.

This is why I think a target of 8 reps per set is perfect.

[jameson]

I didn't say dips are the devil. I've never had issues with them myself. My shoulder position doing dips and benching doesn't really change much... I am saying that dips have been known to cause, or exacerbate existing, shoulder problems; especially when the dip bars aren't close enough for your anthropometry. Do whatever you like.

Also, if you noticed, I mentioned an alternative AND keeping dips in your program.

[coreJack]

Can you DB bench? I can't barbell bench b/c of shoulder pain, but DB bench is working so far - neutral grip, elbows not flared out, depth limited to upper arm horizontal.

Dips are pretty brutal on the shoulders. As you note, this isn't universal. But you may find that once you make it a part of your routine, with linear progression, that they aren't as kind to your shoulders as they once were. I think Cressey wrote something about why he hates dips for his clients.

[Dastardly]

Sorry, it seems that what I wrote came across the wrong way.

I do appreciate your input, when I said "thankyou for your concern" I really did mean it. Must remember to add emoticon to everything.

:)

[jameson]

Sorry, it seems that what I wrote came across the wrong way.

I do appreciate your input, when I said "thankyou for your concern" I really did mean it. Must remember to add emoticon to everything.

:)

Hehe, then my apologies. I'm thinking more about this, and I wonder if you aren't excessively flaring your elbows during the bench... I'm just reaching here - I'm sure you'll find out what works best for you. Good luck.