Intermittent Fasting and PPST-Advanced Novice [Archive]

Namo4184

03-21-2010, 12:00 PM

I've been thinking about the feedback I've gotten form you guys and I've decided to, yet again, rework my program.

Mon: REST

Tue: FAST

Wed: 3x5 Low-Bar-Squat; 3x5 Bench/Overhead Press; 3xF Chin-Ups; 30 Min Row (3x2000 3 min rest)

Thu: Rest Day

Fri: 90% 3x3 High-Bar-Squat; 3x5 Bench/Overhead Press; 1x5 Deadlift; 30 Min Treadmill (Continuous)

Sat: FAST

Sun: 3x5 Low-Bar-Squat; 3x5 Bench/Overhead Press; 3xF Pull-Ups; 30 Min Row (6x1000 2 min Rest)

For weight increases on on the bar, I'm continuing linear progression on my upper body lifts. For squat, I'm increasing the weight on Sunday only.

Fasting sucks, but it has worked for me in the past and saves me time. On my feeding days, I'm going to be strict on my calorie intake. The milk is easy to control, however lunch and dinner are going to be a little tricky.

1. 550 Breakfast: Oatmeal, Milk, Sugar, Raisin ± Banana

2. 750 Lunch: Complex Carb + Lean Protein + Fibrous Veggie

3. 350 Snack: Chocolate Milk

4. 750 Dinner: Complex Carb + Lean Protein + Fibrous Veggie.)

5. 350 Snack: Chocolate Milk

6. Essential Fatty Acid (Before Bed)

Total Calories 2750

On fasting days, I remove meals 1-3. That is 1650 calories twice a week (3300 every week). I also drink 8 oz. of water before every meal to control calories and also help with recovery. Lastly, I allow for 9 hrs of sleep, every day.

Things may change as I read up on this guy Leangains.com. He successfully gains muscle mass while maintaining 5.5% body fat. He uses a different form of intermittent fasting. I like it because it's backed by results and not some one's theories.

My main concern with this diet is recovery from the squats. I'm considering doing texas method for squats. I could actually stand to do texas methods for my upper body lifts as well since I am not making linear gains on them anyway. My apprehension comes form knowing that I can make linear gains if I increase my caloric intake.

Jason B

03-21-2010, 01:59 PM

I'm not sure what your goals are, but I like the leangains.com approach. I feel so much better eating like that rather than eating every 3 hours. Eating frequently made my tired all the time and hungry, not satisfied. I have much more energy on the leangains plan, and I can eat a ton of food, when it counts. Plus I never have an appetite in the morning, so the plan works great for not eating breakfast. I have my feeding window from about 9AM to 6PM (I go nine hours cause it works better for me), I train at 11AM. Except Fridays, when I train in the evening, I extend my feeding window to bedtime.

Baker

03-21-2010, 04:17 PM

i am doing IF & closer to what martin suggests, although i've really dumbed it down to just 2 meals/day within a 6-8hr period (so 16-18 hours fast every day). martin's results & those of his clients are amazing. i've only been doing this for 5+ weeks, but i've lost ~10lbs so far (so good). obviously 5 weeks is not long enough for long-term results. once i start to plateau i'll try to follow his system more closely (maybe). i am also doing like you a bill starr type routine, where i squat/press/pull 3 days/week. martin does more of a lower frequency training routine, i may have to switch to this if recovery becomes an issue down the road.

i agree with everything jason b said.

you mention the texas method, which may work perfect for you, but for me, being 35 & lack of sleep, i don't think i could squat 5x5 across with a calorie-reduced diet.

Namo4184

03-21-2010, 11:43 PM

Cool, its good to see other people doing IF with some results. I'm looked at the nutritional density of my current approach and I've decided to take out the chocolate milk and just use milk. It's crazy but one serving of the cocoa powder is almost equal to a cup of milk. If you think about it that way, it means that you could get a whole cup of nutrition or a couple tablespoons of sugar flavoring. Easy decision there.

I'm reading through all the old post on Leangains.com I haven't quite figured out his whole deal yet. It interesting that he does recommend Eat Stop Eat.

As for my goal, I want to get to </= 10% body fat. At the same time I want to retain my muscle mass and increase my strength.

Good luck to you guys on your goals.

Baker

03-22-2010, 08:04 AM

hopefully he will release finish/release his book soon. it may be worth contacting him in the meantime, although i think i've read he may not be taking any more clients now as his plate is full??? not sure if that's true. he certainly gets his clients down to low bodyfats (your goal). have you seen the before/afters?

his: http://leangains.blogspot.com/2007/12/wrapping-up-2007and-everything-that-was.html

clients: http://leangains.blogspot.com/search/label/Client%20results

this form of eating is very liberating. i am not counting any calories at all yet, however, eventually i will probably have to do some daily cycling like martin recommends. if you are sick of counting, it might be worth a try, you can even still have your chocolate milk from time to time.

essentially, you would just do your 2 fast days every day, but eat some more at those 2 meals as 1100 cals ain't very much (if you are doing this every day).

have you read the fast 5 book? i thought that was pretty good too. http://www.fast-5.com/Fast-5-ebook100.pdf (http://www.fast-5.com/Fast-5-ebook100.pdf)

ILiftAlone

03-22-2010, 11:01 AM

This leangains site has got me interested. Anyone else had success with it? Im looking to cut some fat once my linear progression is done, so ill be learning all I can about it untill then.

mstrofbass

03-22-2010, 11:55 AM

This leangains site has got me interested. Anyone else had success with it? Im looking to cut some fat once my linear progression is done, so ill be learning all I can about it untill then.

I started doing it (leangains approach) because it fit my schedule last semester. I also HATE getting up early enough to make breakfast, so with this I was able to get up as late as possible for class, eat my first meal at lunch, eat my second after my last class, and my third before 8 PM.

I was really worried about being able to cram my 3500+ calories (including GOMAD) into that amount of time. I found that even though I wasn't EVER hungry after my first meal, I could still eat without any issues. In fact, it was so easy (after learning to eat even though I wasn't hungry), that I thought about cutting an extra hour off of the feeding window. I recall getting the impression that increasing the length of the fast is not bad at all, but he just picked the 16/8 split because it worked well for most people.

My schedule this semester has made it a bit more challenging, but I can probably work something out if I try hard enough. Hoping to get both my low carb/high fat diet going with the leangains style IF. I predict it will work out very nicely.

Namo4184

03-22-2010, 12:28 PM

I started doing it (leangains approach) because it fit my schedule last semester. I also HATE getting up early enough to make breakfast, so with this I was able to get up as late as possible for class, eat my first meal at lunch, eat my second after my last class, and my third before 8 PM.

I was really worried about being able to cram my 3500+ calories (including GOMAD) into that amount of time. I found that even though I wasn't EVER hungry after my first meal, I could still eat without any issues. In fact, it was so easy (after learning to eat even though I wasn't hungry), that I thought about cutting an extra hour off of the feeding window. I recall getting the impression that increasing the length of the fast is not bad at all, but he just picked the 16/8 split because it worked well for most people.

My schedule this semester has made it a bit more challenging, but I can probably work something out if I try hard enough. Hoping to get both my low carb/high fat diet going with the leangains style IF. I predict it will work out very nicely.

So you stay on the diet while making gains as well? did you notice your gains slow down at all? Did your gains increase?

mstrofbass

03-22-2010, 12:34 PM

So you stay on the diet while making gains as well? did you notice your gains slow down at all? Did your gains increase?

My diet/workout regime was too uncontrolled to tell. I was still eating a caloric excess, so my gains wouldn't have slowed down, at least not noticeably. I did it mainly for convenience, because I couldn't really tell whether it helped or hurt the amount of fat I gained while doing GOMAD.

I also wasn't following his "diet", just his fasting/feeding split.

ILiftAlone

03-22-2010, 06:56 PM

Im glad to hear youve had success with it. I may be giving this a try soon.

Namo4184

03-28-2010, 09:19 AM

So I tried out the 16/8 "Lean Gains" approach. I have to say it is much easier to spend a day eating like that than the Eat Stop Eat method. Now "Lean Gains" is everyday, maybe if I did it every day it would wear on me and I wouldn't like it.

I'm still skeptical about sticking with "Lean Gains." I really don't like to fool around with any program where they dull out information piece by piece. I like it when the author gives me the whole enchilada and it is a one time transaction.

Because of that I can't recommend lean gains until I see a complete work. That is unless you are willing to get personal coaching directly from Martin Berkhan. I'm not willing to spend the kind of money he'd most likely ask for.

My biggest question is, how many calories should I be eating? How does it work different during muscle gain, fat loss, and maintenance? Do I change things on work out day? A book would answer those questions. As it is now, I'd have to rummage through years worth of blog post to get the information necessary to satisfy me.

Best of Luck Guys.

Baker

03-28-2010, 03:36 PM

he is supposed to be releasing a book this year, but in the meantime this is a pretty good overview of his methods: http://avidityfitness.net/2008/01/12/interview-martin-berkhan/

and this: http://leangains.blogspot.com/2007/06/intermittent-fasting-guidelines-for_15.html

i am now in my 7th week & i've lost 14lbs (229 to 215). it's a breeze for me to stick to but i am eating whatever i want right now...i will have to follow his guidelines more closely at some point. IF, like anything else, won't work for everyone. I thought you said earlier that the eat-stop-eat version worked well for you in the past, maybe that is the better way for you to go?

leocreilly

04-07-2010, 04:54 PM

I really like the idea of IF as a matter of convenience; and also worth noting, I am still seeing linear increases via SS.

That said, because of my job, I need to work-out early morning (630AM), but would like my feeding window to fall basically lunch to dinner (12-8PM).

Is it absurd to think linear increases could persist via this feeding window? More specifically, does anybody else offset training and feeding? I feel like Keith from Theorytopractice does this, but he is not really focused on gaining strength (as I currently am).

Baker

04-08-2010, 06:30 AM

are you on a calorie deficit with IF? if so, the strength gains could be slower, but everybody is different. there are & has been lots of really strong lower-bodyweight people.

leocreilly

04-08-2010, 01:39 PM

@Baker are you on a calorie deficit with IF? if so, the strength gains could be slower, but everybody is different. there are & has been lots of really strong lower-bodyweight people.

def not in caloric deficit, nor do i intend to be...again, I just think IF is a more practical method of eating

that said i revisited one of the leangains posts linked here and Martin stresses the importance of pre and post workout nutrition, even within the context of an IF regimen...pretty much nixes my idea

Captain Ronn

04-09-2010, 09:50 PM

I started the lean gains IF approach Wednesday. I also switched to a TM program this week. I was able to grind out a 500lb SQ (though very ugly) 315lb BP x 3 and a 500lb DL x 2 today. These are not PR's (except for the bench) but I am coming out of a bit of an overtrain. I agree that it is very much easier to eat in this approach than 6-8 meals a day. The test will be whether I make any progress on my lifts by next Friday. If not I'll opt out of IF.

milesdyson

04-09-2010, 10:05 PM

never head of this. it seems incredibly unlikely to work. we, as humans, store carbs as glycogen, and we have a nearly unlimited capacity to store fat, but we don't store protein. so what happens when you deprive yourself of protein for 16 hours a day?

if the body needs protein that it does not have on hand (during the fast for example), it will attack its stored amino acids to get what it needs. it can only do this by attacking muscle tissue, and this is obviously not what we want.

the analogy i've seen used to explain this is that we need to eat the muscle tissue of other animals (steak, chicken breast, etc.) or our body will eat our own muscle. we need to provide the raw materials, or our bodies will harvest them from places that we do not want.

Baker

04-10-2010, 05:31 AM

if you don't think it will work, don't try it...stick to what you have found to work for you.

Captain Ronn

04-10-2010, 10:29 AM

Miles,

I too am a little skeptical. Martin (the leangains.com guy) seems to hold to the idea that the 16 hr fasting window is not an extended enough period of deprivation to lead to muscle catabolism. He says digestion of a regular meal takes 6-7 hrs. I guess an "overfeed" would take twice as long. Basically, I guess the claim is don't worry about catabolism during IF because, thanks to the overfeed, you still have protein in your system.

I am not very educated on the science and processes of human nutrition and digestion. This all seems plausible to me. But like I say, I'm giving this a trial run to test it's mettle.

blowdpanis

04-10-2010, 11:27 PM

It works quite well, and tracks nicely with the data indicating that increased meal frequency to stoke the metabolic fire or whatever = bullshit.

And aside from some seeming protein-sparing/partitioning effects, there may even be some nice health benefits to regular fasting, too. Consider it the anti-bro diet and enjoy.

Captain Ronn

04-12-2010, 11:54 PM

My squat sets did not go well today. Attempted 425lbs @ 5x5. Got 3,3,2,4,3. Weird. Benched 275x5x3 and this felt pretty good. Did not attempt to deadlift (time constraints). I'm not entirely sure if I can attribute the poor squats to IF, though I am inclined to do so. I mentioned previously that I was coming off an overtrain and a part of me thinks I have not adequately recovered from this.

Today I weighted in at 235 down from about 241. This may be all water weight (?) but I feel leaner and I think I look leaner.

My hypothesis is of now twofold. One that I am still suffering from an overtrained state and two that I need to ease my body into lifting during IF.

My solution is to cut intensity and volume, that is, cut weight and reps. I plan to drop the weight very low and work at 2 sets of 5.

milesdyson

04-13-2010, 02:06 AM

Ronn,

was that a "PR" 5x5? if so, it doesn't matter how you lost the weight. it wasn't going to happen.

Captain Ronn

04-13-2010, 12:18 PM

Miles

Not a PR 5x5.

I don't follow you. Could you elaborate a little more as to what you're trying to say. I'm not linking losing weight to losing strength. I don't think I missed these reps because I lost weight if that's what you're getting at. I think that maybe this diet is not conducive to heavy training or perhaps my body needs to adjust to training on such a diet. Like going no/low carb from a hi carb diet, performance can suffer until the body adapts.

The point of my previous post was to say "hey, I'm losing weight, which may be mostly water, but I also feel like my lifts are suffering".

Scale at home this morning read a little below 230. Cheap scale so may not be accurate.

milesdyson

04-13-2010, 09:17 PM

i asked if it was a PR attempt because it would be foolish to expect to PR after losing 6lb.

basically i don't understand how you can say "i don't think i missed reps because i lost weight" and instead blame the structure of the diet. if you had switched to IF and eaten maintenance, sure, you could claim your body needed to adjust or whatever. but in this case the deficit has to be the biggest factor in your ability to gain or maintain strength. another topic is your programming in the first place, which as an intermediate+ should probably be geared to maintaining strength.

Captain Ronn

04-13-2010, 11:18 PM

OK, thanks for your input. Sorry for bothering you.

milesdyson

04-14-2010, 02:52 PM

it's okay. :)

poopmonkey

04-14-2010, 05:35 PM

Interesting thread.

I will be following it and updating with my own progress.

I'm currently doing the advanced novice program, and mixing in IF on my non-trainings.

So on training days I eat normally (lots of fat and protein) and non-training days I don't eat anything at all until about 5-6 pm.

Too early to gauge any results but I feel this should work well for both fat loss and allowing me to continue to make linear strength gains.

Wrenn

04-23-2010, 03:14 AM

I have been using an IF style diet for the past 4 months and also started SS about the same time so maybe my experiences might be useful to someone.

I have been using the Warrior Diet which is a version of IF that uses a 20/4 underfeed/overfeed. It's not a true fast and I usually eat ~1500kJ during the underfeed period, mainly fruit but sometimes nuts/milk/cheese/tuna. I eat my main meal at nights usually over a 3 hour period. I have been counting calories fairly carefully and hitting around 8000kJ-9500kJ per day so a fairly high calorie deficit for my size/activity level.

I lost ~13kg over 3 months, going from 121.5kg to 108.2kg.

I found it the easiest of all cuts I have done. While I counted calories I didnt have to watch it as closely as when doing 6 or 3 meals/day, and when I ate it was massive satisfying meals. Also, for two weeks over easter I didnt count calories and just ate what I wanted and my weight stayed constant which was good. I never had any problems with hunger or lack of energy during the day. I also like it as it fits in well with my natural habits and schedules.

At the start of January I also started SS and made solid progress but given I was on a big calorie deficit, was doing a LOT of cardio, and not getting much rest between weight days I started stalling on most lifts after about 11 weeks. I made the following improvements though, which was more than I expected given I wasn't eating or resting enough for muscle gain:

Squat: 60kg -> 97.5kg
Bench: 50kg -> 87.5kg
Deadlift: 50kg -> 115kg
Press: 30kg -> 55kg
Weight assisted Pullups: 10,8,6 @ 74kg assistance -> 8,8,7 @ 35kg assistance

I have since switched to a 2 day/week maintenance lifting schedule and have made some small improvements to most lifts in the past 3 weeks while still losing weight.

Recently I started looking at the leangains method and I like it a lot. I have just started doing 3 days leangains and 4 days WD as that fits in nicely with my schedule. Also I upped my calories slightly to help maintain some strength gains while I continue my cut. I have another 15-18kg to lose so another 6 months or so before I start thinking about bulking.

tennisgod

04-27-2010, 12:23 AM

i asked if it was a PR attempt because it would be foolish to expect to PR after losing 6lb.

I disagree. A reduction in strength would only occur if he was at the absolute maximum of his strength at that weight, which certainly not be the case in 99.99% of lifters. The fact that Gary Gibson can squat 400+ at 180# is an indication that weight is not the only factor.

I have reduced roughly 4Kg from 96.5Kg and I am holding all PR's and actually increasing the DL.

milesdyson

04-27-2010, 04:56 AM

I disagree. A reduction in strength would only occur if he was at the absolute maximum of his strength at that weight, which certainly not be the case in 99.99% of lifters.
this is ridiculous unless you have a useless definition of "absolute maximum of his strength at that weight."

God of Thunder

04-27-2010, 07:08 AM

I keep reading the title of this thread as 'Intermittent Farting....'

tennisgod

04-27-2010, 09:51 PM

this is ridiculous unless you have a useless definition of "absolute maximum of his strength at that weight."

Justin, from 70's big, who is probably as close as anyone here to their genetic limits, just cut back a substantial amount of weight, and his lifts have not gone down due to a change of diet based on nutritionist advise. Therefore, he is stronger.
Therefore, it is ridiculous to assume instantly that a reduction in weight automatically means a reduction in lifting weight.

ColoWayno

04-28-2010, 06:52 AM

I keep reading the title of this thread as 'Intermittent Farting....'
Is that how you got your screen name?

TrackJunkie

04-28-2010, 10:49 AM

Justin, from 70's big, who is probably as close as anyone here to their genetic limits, just cut back a substantial amount of weight, and his lifts have not gone down due to a change of diet based on nutritionist advise. Therefore, he is stronger.
Therefore, it is ridiculous to assume instantly that a reduction in weight automatically means a reduction in lifting weight.

Is it as ridiculous as assuming that we can achieve our maximum genetic potential for a given weight in one bout of bulking/cutting?

Suppose a lifter trained hard and gained weight until he was really strong, and reasonably strong for his weight. Your idea seems to be that with proper diet and training regimen, he won't lose any strength at all until he's at a weight where his genetics prohibit him from being any stronger at that weight. Following this logic, if the lifter continued to cut, he would remain at 100% of his genetic potential strength through the entire cut.
I don't think that makes the slightest bit of sense.

Baker

04-28-2010, 04:32 PM

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/interviews/intermittent-fasting%E2%80%94to-feast-or-not-to-feast-an-interview-with-martin-berkhan/

milesdyson

04-28-2010, 05:15 PM

Justin, from 70's big, who is probably as close as anyone here to their genetic limits, just cut back a substantial amount of weight, and his lifts have not gone down due to a change of diet based on nutritionist advise. Therefore, he is stronger.
Therefore, it is ridiculous to assume instantly that a reduction in weight automatically means a reduction in lifting weight.
[x] ridiculous definition of absolute maximum strength
[x] anecdote of someone maintaining strength through weight loss

but nice strawman. i bolded it for you because you seem stupid enough not to understand.

another topic is your programming in the first place, which as an intermediate+ should probably be geared to maintaining strength.

tennisgod

04-28-2010, 07:15 PM

Is it as ridiculous as assuming that we can achieve our maximum genetic potential for a given weight in one bout of bulking/cutting?

The original point is from a poster's statement: "i asked if it was a PR attempt because it would be foolish to expect to PR after losing 6lb."

I'm saying that you cannot assume that a reduction of 6lb will always result in a reduction in lifting weight. There are many other factors.

milesdyson

04-28-2010, 10:47 PM

your definition of absolute maximum strength is "probably closer to genetic potential than other posters on this internet forum" and you think not setting personal records means "a reduction in lifting weight," though i specifically said his goal should be maintaining strength.

and well done ignoring trackjunkie's post explaining what your "hurr hurr genetic potential maintain strength and lose weight" post actually meant and instead focusing on your argument that not PRing means lifting less weight. realizing your post was nonsense proves you're at least not completely braindead. congrats.

God of Thunder

04-29-2010, 03:55 AM

:D @ ColoWayno

briang

02-25-2011, 01:29 PM

I was wondering if any of you guys have stuck with the intermittent fasting or have started IF since this thread began. If so, would you please share your results. I'm thinking about giving it a try along with SS and was just wondering if it would work well.

thanks

Antendo

02-27-2011, 08:23 AM

I've started to dabble with IF for a couple of weeks now, and here's what I've found.

First off, I've lost fat. I'm leaner, and my girlfriend even admitted it, rather reluctantly. I've really liked what's happening, because it hasn't affected my training whatsoever. If anything, it's made it easier.

Because I fast and then have my first meal immediately after my workout, I get a massive amount of my caloric intake in the post-workout window. Legitimately, I've had to take nothing but a what I can see results approach. I didn't know my BF% before starting, and I don't know it now, and I've made some pretty large muscle mass gains without even trying.

I've been approaching it as within the 8 hour feeding window, just eat a fuckload of wholesome foods, from a pretty paleo approach. So for 3 meals I'll just stuff my face silly and hope it's around my 4000 kcal range, which when I actually sit down to look at it usually is.

I've concluded, that as long as I get enough nutrients to facilitate my recovery, I'm good for my training. And then when I fast, my body catabolizes some fat. Pretty, damn, convenient, I tell ya hwhat.

Carlos Daniel

02-27-2011, 08:42 PM