20 rep squat after advanced novice program

[Krump]

In the 4 months of SS (before I had done SL 5x5 for 4 months) my squat went from 215x5x3 to 265x5x3, DL from 260x5 to 325x5, bench from 145x5x3 to 175x5x3, press from 90x5x3 to 125x5x3, and bodyweight from 170 to 190.

I have been on advanced novice and last week I stalled on my lifts for the third time. I really don't want to switch to intermediate programing yet because then I am accepting slow gains and I feel my lifts are weak relative to my experience (4-8 months depending on the program).

Since the 10 days or so since I stalled for the third time, I have been doing dumb bell circuits outside, sprinting, and just running around enjoying the spring weather. I was thinking of cutting weight while enjoying the outside for the next 6 weeks and then getting back to the program (and eating for it again), and work my way back through my sticking points before switching to TM. In the mean time I don't want to abandon BBT completely but can't keep doing heavy sets while loosing weight. I was thinking about doing 20 rep squats twice a week.

I don't plan on 20 rep squats getting me much stronger while trying to cut some weight, but figured since it is high reps it is a program I could try out for 4-6 weeks until I switch back to the strength program.

I just wanted to see if doing 20 rep squats would fuck me up when switching back to the adv novice program. When I switch back to the adv novice program I want to be able to bust through my stalling points at a bodyweight equal to or less than what I weighed when I stalled.

Messing around w 20 rep squats for a few weeks won't screw up my gains once I get back on the adv novice program will it?

Thanks for input and advice.

[william jackson]

im going to try and not sound like a dick.

i have done some research into the 20rep program. some people differ in opinion about doing it 2x a week with 5lb jumps or 1x a week with 10lb jumps. but the thing everyone says about either version is that it is very fucking hard. its a high volume program that adds 200lbs of volume a week crammed into one long set. to me it sounds a lot harder than toughing out linear progression for a very long time.
as for nutrition... im sure that for your body to recover from such a massive overload, you would have to be eating quite a bit. possibly more than required to make 5lb jumps twice a week on 3x5.

doesnt sound to me like a good "cutting" program

[TomC]

Everyone's goals are not the same, but you only put on 20 pounds of bodyweight in 4 months. This might have something to do with your stall. You probably need to eat more if you want to see those numbers go higher. Everyone wants to squat 400 lbs at a bodyweight of 170, but for most mortals that is not going to happen. You will get stronger as your muscles get bigger. Cutting weight is usually a bad idea if you want to get stronger.

[GripAU]

I reckon you should sample the 20 rep squat before you buy it, so to speak. Get your true 10RM, based on your 1RM and then do that for twenty. Then once that's done you'll be in a good position to judge whether or not you want to do it once or twice a week,... Or not at all ;)

I'd say you got a pretty big pair of balls if you can do it twice a week

[gzt]

If you want to lose weight without losing strength, drop volume, not intensity. 20 rep squats are high volume, not high intensity. They're much better for gaining mass. But, seriously, you weight 190 with a squat of 265, I think you're not really done here unless you're a woman or 5' tall. Odds are you're so pathologically afraid of gaining weight that you came nowhere near your potential at SS. Anyway. The Texas Method is probably better for losing fat without losing muscle or much strength, but keep in mind that while you're losing weight you probably can't push strength gains much, if at all, and the volume day may need to be trimmed back if you're having issue with recovery.

[Chewie_jrc]

What is your age/sex/height? Barring some very large physiological difference between you and the rest of the human populace, it looks as if you have a ways to go before exhausting your linear gains. What is your diet and recovery (sleep, stress, etc) like?

[Tiburon]

I want to be able to bust through my stalling points at a bodyweight equal to or less than what I weighed when I stalled.

As was mentioned above, this might not be possible. How tall are you? BW of 190 lbs might not be that much if you are 5'8"+

[Krump]

I appreciate the responses and advise so far.

So it seems a better alternative to maintain strength while loosing weight would be to do low volume, high intensity like one set of 5 on all exercises instead of 3x5, right? After reading your responses it seems this would be the best way to go and if I do anything else I am an idiot but I am afraid the allure of 20 rep squats is just too great for me to resist and since I am off the program while loosing weight, I now have an opportunity to do some sort of BBT that is not the program.

I want to assure you that I am not loosing perspective of the long-term objective of getting bigger and stronger, but the fact of the matter is since it isn't dismal fucking winter anymore I want to be out outside, sprint, hike, do punishing circuits and enjoy the weather. Once I loose a little weight I am going back to novice progression for as long as I can milk it before switching to TM. I am just wanting to utilize these next 4-6 weeks as a buffer between resetting and switching to TM.

I gave 20 rep squats a couple trial runs earlier this week @ 185 and 190 and really enjoyed it, thats why I wanted to do it for the next 4-6 weeks while loosing weight. I used to be an ultra runner (weighed 155 at 6 feet) before quiting distance running due to IT band issues, taking up BBT and putting on 35 pounds in 8 months. So because of my ultra running background I am a certified masochist, that is why I wanted to try out 20 rep squats (and yes, it felt like torture - my kind of thing).

I appreciate your responses, I really considered them while decided what to do but ultimately decided to dick around w 20 rep squats for 4-6 weeks while trying to loose weight which is completely the wrong thing to do. At least now I know what I'm choosing to do is not ideal but I am going to fucking enjoy it anyway.

Thanks and feel free to continue commenting. If it is condemning enough I may stop and "get back on the program ASAP".

I think I will start a 20 rep log so you guys can likely see me document my burnout from the volume while on a calorie deficit -tragic hubris at it's finest.

[gzt]

Y'know, do whatever you want and whatever makes you happy. At 6', you'll be much better off closer to 220 than closer to 180, frankly. But, whatevs.
Top tips for maintaining strength:
*Low volume, high intensity on weights. This may even require 2x per week instead of 3. See how recovery goes.
*Low volume, high intensity on running.
*Caloric deficit means recovery suffers. Keep this in mind.
*Don't increase total amount of exercise at the same time as decreasing diet. This leads to crashing. Modify variables slowly.

But, seriously, you need to gain 30 more pounds as fast as you can (which is faster than your current rate). You don't squat nearly enough weight yet. Eat a lot, drink tons of milk, go running occasionally because it's nice out and you like it. Because of the high volume of running you were probably used to when training for ultras, you can probably get away with doing a few miles a couple times per week and still hit your strength increases. But, seriously, 5K calories per day until you can do that easily, then 6K calories per day until you're at least over 200#. You can totally get to 315 on the squat as a novice like this. I know you probably won't take my advice to get to 220, but you'll be more awesome if you did.

But, at the end of the day, you'll do whatever you want. Just train regularly and report back how it goes for you. This doesn't sound like a recipe for injury and it could be interesting info, so I won't tell you it's stupid.

[Tiburon]

I guess I just don't understand how you could be 6' 190 and want to LOSE weight.

You said that your lifts are "weak relative to my experience (4-8 months depending on the program)." You aren't eating enough. Gaining 30 pounds will alleviate that. You're not an ultra runner anymore.

[cervicornis]

I'm never a fan of loosing weight. NEVER NEVER NEVER. Losing weight, on the other hand, is sometimes alright. LOOSING WEIGHT DRIVES ME FUCKING INSANE.

Looking at your numbers objectively and without knowing your own personal goals, I would think you would be much better off eating at maintenance instead of trying to run a caloric deficit. That way, you should be able to keep whatever LBM you've gained and you'll be able to do whatever outside activity it is you're looking to do.

If the activities you're looking to do are really hampered by the 190 lbs. you're carrying on a 6' skeleton, this is probably the wrong forum to ask for advice.

It doesn't have to be an either/or solution. If you're dead set against gaining any more weight (I assume you fear fat and not LBM) just eat near maintenance and keep the volume reasonable with high intensity.

[cervicornis]

And as others have pointed out, you shouldn't have been on an advanced novice program with those numbers, unless there is something physiological that kept you from getting stronger, faster.

You weren't eating enough to recover and adapt to the stress as efficiently as possible. Set whatever goals you want, but at least try and accomplish those goals in an efficient manner.

[william jackson]

i fear we have someone looking for "workouts" and not training advice...

[ZKP]

20 rep squats, done how they're meant to be done, are one of the hardest things you'll do in your life. All this cutting weight nonsense aside.....really if you want to be more conditioned , do more conditioning but who gives a shit about the # on the scale. Either way, you're numbers are small. It won't really matter what you do to tell the truth. This is me being completely honest with you. If at a body weight of 190 and that as a 20 rep working weight you think you've hit intermediate/advanced programing.......you are missing the point of those routines....Good luck.

[PVC]

I'm never a fan of loosing weight. NEVER NEVER NEVER. Losing weight, on the other hand, is sometimes alright. LOOSING WEIGHT DRIVES ME FUCKING INSANE.

I like you.

EDIT: (no homo).

[Krump]

Ok, the persistent dissuasion is working. I am going to wait longer before deciding to loose weight. When I seriously started SS 4 months ago (this includes eating as much as possible in order to maximize strength gains) I promised myself I would do what it takes to get strong while on the program, but whenever I felt like it I could stop for a while and loose some weight. Stalling for the third time on all my lifts two weeks ago was very discouraging. I still feel like I need to "take a break" from the program for a while but if I truly want to do well once I get back to the program, trying to lose some weight in the mean time (and get weaker) is probably not the best option even though I want to.

So instead of trying to do 20 reps while loosing weight I am going to do it for 6 weeks properly and fuel it with enough food (and enough milk to drown a PETA member in a bathtub).

Still not ideal because I am not "on the program" but I am needing a change of pace for a while after my third stall on novice progression. And I will have a hard time giving up the outdoor exercises but I'll have to wait and see if that changes.

Anyways, I guess I will start a 20 rep log in the mean time.

As always, more comments and advice from you hard-heads is greatly welcomed.

[cervicornis]

You're still talking about loosing weight, which suggests to me that you're not paying attention to my advice. I would like to recommend an assistance exercise that you can add to your 20 rep squat program. I promise, you will reap benefits from this exercise for the rest of your life, and it won't hurt your squat recovery much at all.

Grab a piece of paper and write the following with a big, black Sharpie:

I AM SQUATTING AND I AM LOSING WEIGHT. MY PANTS FIT LOOSER NOW AND I AM HAPPY! SQUATS ARE FUN!

You need to write exactly what I have written above. Don't get cute and change anything. This is important.

Affix this paper to whatever spot it is you stare at when you're in the hole. Starting around rep #12, at which point you will certainly begin to question the sanity of this whole 20 rep endeavor, concentrate on these words.

By the end of your 6 week program, you will probably have 1. lost weight 2. lost strength on your squat and 3. learned to spell. Good luck!

[Krump]

cervicornis - As I said in my last post, I changed my mind and am holding off on any plans to loose weight. I am going to do 20 rep squats properly so that means gaining weight while I do it.

I started a 20 rep squats log and as another form of commitment I am going to order a 70sbig T-shirt - size large so I will have work to do to fill it out - first thing tomorrow.

Again, I changed my mind about loosing weight, I am going to continue putting on weight.

Log: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15933

[GVA-66]

You're still talking about loosing weight, which suggests to me that you're not paying attention to my advice. I would like to recommend an assistance exercise that you can add to your 20 rep squat program. I promise, you will reap benefits from this exercise for the rest of your life, and it won't hurt your squat recovery much at all.

Grab a piece of paper and write the following with a big, black Sharpie:

I AM SQUATTING AND I AM LOSING WEIGHT. MY PANTS FIT LOOSER NOW AND I AM HAPPY! SQUATS ARE FUN!

You need to write exactly what I have written above. Don't get cute and change anything. This is important.

Affix this paper to whatever spot it is you stare at when you're in the hole. Starting around rep #12, at which point you will certainly begin to question the sanity of this whole 20 rep endeavor, concentrate on these words.

By the end of your 6 week program, you will probably have 1. lost weight 2. lost strength on your squat and 3. learned to spell. Good luck!

Man, some people really need to losen up a bit.

[william jackson]

Man, some people really need to losen up a bit.


That's what HE said!

[cervicornis]

Krump, I think you should consider hiring a personal coach, because this internet-based coaching model isn't working.

[cervicornis]

Man, some people really need to losen up a bit.

Certain things just drive me crazy. I guess I am a looser that way.

[Krump]

cervicornis - Although 20 reps isn't the SS program, because of everyone's well-meaning input I have decided to at least go about it the right way before going back to the SS novice program. Now I can understand why you would disagree with me doing 20 rep squats while on a caloric deficit, but is it such a sin to give 20 reps a shot before switching to TM or resetting novice progression? I don't understand why you are chosing to be so fussy about this.

[cervicornis]

No, there is nothing wrong with trying the 20 rep squat program. I need to go bang my head against the wall now.

[Krump]

Sorry cervicornis, once you said my spelling drives you insane I had to test that claim out. It appears true. Please don't take my bad spelling habits personal and bang your head against a wall, I'm just trying to communicate - and troll grammar czars. No need to loose your head about it. :) I appreciate your other non-grammar advice though.

20 rep squats it is.

[Captain Ronn]

So you've been on SS for a while and you've stalled three times. I think it is a good idea to give the 20 rep squats a go. Start light. Go as long as you can adding 5 - 10 lbs. When you stall, add another 5 - 10 lbs. and start SS again.

This worked for me. I started at 135 on Apr 27 and hit 315 x 5 on Jun 1 in 2009. The next session I started SS again.

My 20 rep routine was simply SS with higher reps. Squats at 1 set of 20, presses at 3 sets of 10's and PCln at 3-5 sets of 3 and DL at 3 sets of 5.

Good luck. Eat smart and drink your milk.

[cervicornis]

Understood.

[Gwynn]

I'm just trying to communicate - and troll grammar czars. No need to loose your head about it. :) I appreciate your other non-grammar advice though.


I know I should just let this die a well-deserved death. But I can't resist. Your original sin was a sin of spelling, not a sin of grammar. The improper spelling led to a concurrent and incidental sin of grammar, simply because adding the extra "o" changed your intended word choice to a word with a different meaning. Had you simply tried to lse weight, you would have merely committed a sin of spelling without the additional grammar error. To make it more interesting, you could also have tried to loose wait. Or tried Toulouse wait. :D

[PVC]

I started at 135 on Apr 27 and hit 315 x 5 on Jun 1 in 2009.

So you added 180 lbs to your squat in 5 weeks?

I call shenanigans.

[Captain Ronn]

No, no. I started light. Super light. Think of it as a SS back-off leading into a 20-rep routine. My max squat at this time was around 400. These were my jumps:

135x20, 155x20, 185x20, 205x20, 215x20, 225x20, 235x20, 245x20, 265x20, 275x20, 285x20, 295x15, 295x20, 315x15

I'm not saying I added any weight to my squat. I just wanted to illustrate that I started very light as I advised Krump to do. My goal was 20 reps at 1.5 x BW. All I am saying is if you're burnt out and stalling on SS, do a 20 rep cycle if you want. It's not a bad idea. Then start SS again at your last weight of 20.

I recommend that everyone should do at least one serious 20 rep cycle in their training career.

[Brenden]

I recommend that everyone should do at least one serious 20 rep cycle in their training career.

I've been considering doing one ever since I heard about them. How would you describe the benefits?

[Captain Ronn]

Brenden,

I don't know. I got a lot of satisfaction grinding out the reps when I wanted to quit at 10 or 15. I can't describe it. That is why I suggest everyone experience it for themselves. It was all about mental fortitude for me. I guess it is also good for muscular endurance and work capacity or whatever. People also tout 20 reps as a good way to put on weight.

I did notice my calfs seemed a lot bigger after a few weeks of 20 reps.

[gzt]

Intestinal fortitude. Mental toughness. Some muscular endurance and hypertrophy.

[jameson]

Testicular fortitude.

...couldn't resist.