The Quest for a Stronger Overhead Press

[stef]

by Bill Starr

"[S]ince the overhead press fell from grace, I’ve never seen anyone press 75 pounds over bodyweight, or very few, for that matter, who could even handle bodyweight. Yet I know it can be done because I saw it done countless times and did it myself. It’s simply of matter of putting in the necessary work in the weight room."

Full Article (http://startingstrength.com/articles/stronger_press_starr.pdf)

Resources Page (http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/resources)

[MazdaMatt]

Thanks. It sounds to me like this article does not apply whatsoever to beginners and SS is still the path for me, for now.

He made note of a "dynamic style press" a couple times. Was the entire article geared towards this style, or were those just side-notes?

[Hawkpeter]

I've started thinking recently about what modern Oly weightlifting programs would look like if the press was still included. How would the third lift impact for example a Bulgarian routine of high intensity, high frequency, lower volume workout program?

The answer is probably quite simple, they'd just press heavy a couple of times a week, duh. Pre '72, was the clean phase of the lift always caught in a deep front squat position? or did some lifters turn it into a power clean to converse energy for the press portion? being that their clean and jerk would be a bit heavier than their press.

Theoretically, what would the world record be for the press right now? If Alexeyev took it to 236.5kg in 1972, the same year that he Jerked 238kg (amazing how close his press was to his jerk) then would Rezazadeh have pressed over 255kg? When you look at that footage of Redding and Alexeyev in '68 going over 500lb for the first time, I have to say that I thought Redding had the stricter form and when people say that Alexeyev, being Russian, knew he'd get 3 whites just for getting it overhead (politics) whilst the Belgian Redding waits to see if his lift is passed you can appreciate why it was eliminated on judging grounds; such a shame the cloud of health and safety took over as the reason.

[Smack]

This is another excellent article. Going to start incorporating dips into my workouts from now on!

[BCGuy]

Another good article on the press by Starr. Interesting comments on Press Starts and their possible incorporation after a full ROM pressing routine.

If using press starts in the Texas Method, I assume it could be successfully applied on the intensity day after the main press work, assuming it can be recovered from in time for the volume day work.

[bench525]

Question for Rip or anyone familiar with Starr's routines. Would he recomend doing the presses and Dips in the same workout? Rip....would you consider this a good idea or overkill for a single workout?

[bench525]

Forgot to add that that was an amazing article! Nice work Rip!

[Koalala]

So if Dips are better for the press then why are chin ups better for the benchpress?

I missed that part.

[gzt]

Hawk - press responds well to frequency, so they would probably do it more the 2x per week.

Power clean vs full clean wouldn't be about conserving energy. some lifters were weak enough on the press (or strong enough on the clean) to power clean their press, others were strong enough on the press to need to clean the weight.

I think there was a pretty blatant knee kick on that Alexeyev press. Friggin' judges.

[RyanH]

Excellent article.



He made note of a "dynamic style press" a couple times. Was the entire article geared towards this style, or were those just side-notes?

See this:http://startingstrength.com/articles/olympic_press_starr.pdf

[Johnny Pain]

He made note of a "dynamic style press" a couple times. Was the entire article geared towards this style, or were those just side-notes?

The article dealt primarily with strengthening the press. The exercises and information presented by Starr here are applicable regardless of whether a dynamic style of press is used or not.

[Johnny Pain]

If using press starts in the Texas Method, I assume it could be successfully applied on the intensity day after the main press work, assuming it can be recovered from in time for the volume day work.

I'm not going to comment on the Texas Method by name since dicking with the program makes it not the program anymore, but I will say that I have people here doing exactly what you're describing who are on similarly structured programs.

The overloads are done after their work for the day.

[Gwynn]

I'd love to see the dynamic press in action. Links, anyone?

[president kang]

Every article Mr. Starr writes is worth its word count in gold. After reading his article on the press last year in CFJ, I decided to add them to my routine (this eventually led to me reading Starting Strength). My overall strength has improved dramatically, and I'm getting close to pressing my bodyweight (currently 5 lbs off). Also love the fact that he mentioned my hometown, El Paso TX!

[StickFigure]

In the picture diagram of the dynamic press the guys hands are placed with palms facing backwards. I didn't see anything in the article about hand width or placement, maybe because I am falling asleep. Is the drawing right? Palms face backwards, not forwards?

[Danish Viking]

Fantastic article, once again, by mr. Starr.

Are there any plans to compile his articles into a book? I also read somewhere (but might be wrong) that he also had a book-project lying around that he was thinking of finishing?

In either case, I'd buy the book(s) if they were published.

[Wayne Riddle]

Great article. I've been working the press twice a week and going to start doing more dips now too.

[Platus]

I'd love to see the dynamic press in action. Links, anyone?

Check out the thread for Starr's "The Olympic-Style Press" article. There are quite a few links posted.

[tallison]

In the picture diagram of the dynamic press the guys hands are placed with palms facing backwards. I didn't see anything in the article about hand width or placement, maybe because I am falling asleep. Is the drawing right? Palms face backwards, not forwards?

@stickfigure: I think that's just an "optical illusion", of sorts. The figure in question is only a sketch and the hands could be pointed either way if you look at it long enough. I commented on the possible confusion, at the time, but I'm pretty sure the palms are supposed to be "up" or "forward" - a standard press grip, that is. Or, at least that was my take when the article was first published and nobody has contradicted me, since (that I'm aware of).

(BTW: this is in reference to Starr's earlier article on the press on this site:
"The Olympic Style Press" http://startingstrength.com/articles/olympic_press_starr.pdf )

[tallison]

Great article. Once I'm even close to pressing my bodyweight, I will definitely return to it. Meanwhile, it's great just to see how somebody with astronomical credibility points thinks these things through.

What an amazing resource this site is/is becoming. Now if you could just standardize the video angles that are optimal for judging form on all the lifts, give some guidance on uploading and make a gallery of good examples and common errors with room for comment....

Question re: Typos and such in the articles: Are you guys at all interested in hearing that kind of feedback? There will always be imperfections and if this is the final state of these articles, as long as it doesn't impact clear communication, who gives a shit about miss-placed periods and garbled conjunctions? On the other hand, if you think you might publish these further in another venue and/or just want everything to be of the highest quality possible, one thing that we, your loyal readers of this *free* material, could contribute are copy-editing notes. Unsolicited, on the other hand, they can just be pedantic and annoying -- so, I thought I'd ask first. Any interest?

[Ans: You can email feedback to stef@startingstrength.com Starr's prolly have extra slipping through since they all come in typewritten with extra handwritten notes and lots of weird stuff shows up with OCR. But don't write me about fragments that are obviously a style choice, not errors.]

[ZEvenEsh]

If we learn and become motivated by anything from Bill it's the remidner to train heavy, train hard and train basics

His baseline for someone adding weight to dips would be 4 x 20 reps, man, can you imagine how strong dudes would be if they could do dips for 4 x 20

Maybe to you or others reading it sounds like no big deal, but I work with athletes daily, and I am shocked (read: nauseated) by the fact that the majority of Varsity athletes (read: VARSITY!!!) can not perform ONE perfect push up, let alone dips at all!

Jim Wendler, Rip and Starr are from the SAME tribe :)

On another note, if you have ever seen photos of Bill Starr you'll notice he is very lean, densely muscled and had that look of strength, he was the kinda guy you looked at and you KNEW he was f**in strong no 2 ways about it.

This article is motivating me to focus more on the strict press, I normally favor a push press so I can get more weight overhead but it's time to go strict and stop f**in around!

Thanks for getting us all an awesome article Rip, Starr is a BadAss!

--Z--

[Squatson]

I got some respect on Wednesday night when some of the guys at my gym came up and asked me about the press. I was warming up, just put 110 on the bar, and the guys (who both bench more than I do) asked if they could give it a try.

I explained that it was a strict press, and no lower body help was allowed. They did something very similar to the press starts Starr mentioned...got the bar to about nose level and then started wobbling all around. "Man that is harder than I thought it was going to be."

I changed the weight to 145 for my first work set, banged it out no problem. The dudes were impressed.

Getting up to BW is going to be hard...but my goal for now is to get to my 2009 BW of 160.

Girl presses are another great benefit of upper body strength. Is it polite to ask the girl for her BW to confirm a PR?

[Platus]

His baseline for someone adding weight to dips would be 4 x 20 reps, man, can you imagine how strong dudes would be if they could do dips for 4 x 20I agree. He is advocating a serious bit of volume on assistance exercises and back-off sets. There is some humility involved in realizing that I am not even capable of his baseline dip requirements.

I find that my sticking point on the press is just a few inches off my shoulders. I am thinking more about his "press starts" recommendation, but I wonder if these would really be useful for someone that is not yet pressing BW.

[milk-grinder]

Articles like that just get me more motivated to keep training hard. I remember starting out with only 65 or 75lbs and it being tough. Trying to get to BW press of 220 is going to be a challenging road. Time to get cranking 80lbs to go!

Zach's blog is motivating too:
http://zacheven-esh.com/blog/overhead-lifting-mayhem/

Must be something in the air lately about pressing stuff.

[Kyle Aaron]

Very interesting stuff. It would have been good if he'd made at least passing mention of the behind-the-neck press, because lots of readers will be thinking of that; whatever our individual views on that, his opinion on and experiences with it would be very useful.

[LudwigVan]

I was a little surprised to read that it took Starr three years to press his bodyweight, 185, and another to get to 200. I've been lifting for about 2 years and I pressed 185 last month at a bodyweight of 195. I feel confident that I'll be able to put 10# on my press in much less than a year.

I don't think I've made very fast progress or put up really impressive numbers. And I think of Bill Starr as being a particularly good presser, although not as gifted as some of the other lifters he mentioned.

So what's the deal here? How long did it take everyone to hit those benchmarks? Did Bill's press progress more slowly than average? Did mine progress more quickly than average? Is it because I'm benefiting from accumulated wisdom that Starr didn't have access to when he was coming up?

[Antigen]

Is it polite to ask the girl for her BW to confirm a PR?
As long as it's not the same girl.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I agree. He is advocating a serious bit of volume on assistance exercises and back-off sets. There is some humility involved in realizing that I am not even capable of his baseline dip requirements.


Guys, man, Jesus. I can easily do this, and I'm not that strong.


Very interesting stuff. It would have been good if he'd made at least passing mention of the behind-the-neck press, because lots of readers will be thinking of that; whatever our individual views on that, his opinion on and experiences with it would be very useful.

A smart guy like you should have read the first pressing article by now.


I was a little surprised to read that it took Starr three years to press his bodyweight, 185, and another to get to 200. I've been lifting for about 2 years and I pressed 185 last month at a bodyweight of 195. I feel confident that I'll be able to put 10# on my press in much less than a year.

I don't think I've made very fast progress or put up really impressive numbers. And I think of Bill Starr as being a particularly good presser, although not as gifted as some of the other lifters he mentioned.

So what's the deal here? How long did it take everyone to hit those benchmarks? Did Bill's press progress more slowly than average? Did mine progress more quickly than average? Is it because I'm benefiting from accumulated wisdom that Starr didn't have access to when he was coming up?

Perhaps you're really doing a push press. Or you're just stronger than Bill. It happens, but I'd like to see a video.

[LudwigVan]

Perhaps you're really doing a push press. Or you're just stronger than Bill. It happens, but I'd like to see a video.

Aw come on, give me a little credit here, I wouldn't say press if I meant push press. I'll be happy to demonstrate the next time you're at Greyskull, though.

So does three years of training to reach a bodyweight press seem pretty standard, based on your experience?

[Mark Rippetoe]

The standard is to never reach a bodyweight press at all. So three years is pretty good for 2010.

[Kyle Aaron]

A smart guy like you should have read the first pressing article by now.
Yes, but not everyone else will have.

[indian_lifter]

The standard is to never reach a bodyweight press at all. So three years is pretty good for 2010.

Rip,

Do you have any plans of coming to greyskull during the summer?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Yes, but not everyone else will have.

So Starr is supposed to recap the previous article in detail because not everybody else except highly thorough Kyle Aaron will have read the first article? I'll pass that along.

[Michael Liao]

I have no way of asking Mr. Starr so I'll hope you're reading this Coach Rip.

On the 3rd page, bottom of the first paragraph, Mr. Starr says it took him 3 years to press his body weight of 185, and another to press 200.

I'd humbly like to ask, is that another 3 years or another year? I'm guessing another year, but I've been wrong before...

Thanks,

Mike

[Mark Rippetoe]

I'm sure he meant another year.

[jimk]

From Page 2 of the article: "This took me three years,
then I bumped my goal up to 200 lbs, which took me another year to achieve." (emphasis added)

[Jason B]

Do dips = get strong. I got away from dips a few years ago after some shoulder issues and didn't go back to them, big mistake. I have a pretty strong push-press and jerk, but my strict press is pathetic, if I have to grind out a rep I don't have the triceps for it. I recently got back into dipping, my first set I barely got ten reps. I'm up to 3 sets of 15 easy after just a few weeks and my press is already stronger. I'm a believer.

[Smolandski]

Great article, thanks!

I have been thinking of adding some heavy presses with a weight I can't press but was uncertain if that was a good idea or not. Starr view on the "press starts" claryfied that for me.

BTW I did the 200 lbs/90.5 kg a month ago at a bodyweight of ~83 kg (182 lbs) and that took me a few years more than Starr, but hey, I'm 50 years old (been lifting for 7-8 years). So, now my goal is 100 kg and that would be really awesome!

[Mark Rippetoe]

Damned good press. Nice work.

[Aslin]

How would one incorporate this into TM/Intermediate programming? doing his perscribed reps/sets for the press and adding in dips after? Or would that be too much work for an intermediate?

[Mark Rippetoe]

If you're asking Starr, his internet connection is very very slow.