Any downside to LOTS of non-saturated fats?

[Beltshumeltz]

I know this board's accepted opinion on saturated fats but this question is about something else!

I know the FDA has guidelines that makers of say, olive oil, can write something about the health benefits of up to 2 tablespoon of oil per day for the heart.

Although I know poly and mono saturated fats are healthy, what about consuming them into 70sBig quantities? Any data on that? Say consuming 500-2000 calories worth of olive oil? I'm not worried about 2 months of crap eating out of a lifetime, but what about adopting this as a life-long time to speed up eating where health is a top 3 priority?

I'd like to do this because it would allow me to have as a base, a normal traditional "healthy" diet like many slim people eat, supplemented with the above mentioned proteins plus a ton of fat calories. When thinking about very-long-term, I don't feel like drinking 2 liters of milk per day, nor do I want to have to spend so much time eating as I do now.

[ColoWayno]

You should double check your assumption about polyunsaturated fats. Some of the stuff I've been reading lately suggests vegetable oil is the devil.

Just saying. I'd be interested in what you find out or what other board members have to say.

[Rorschach]

Quite. Polyunsaturated fats, and more specifically trans fatty acids are fairly nasty.
There's quite a bit of evidence that they're mildly toxic, with links to higher rates of cancer and heart disease.
A bit now and again isn't going to kill you, but I wouldn't recommend making them a regular part of your diet. Try to stear clear of hydrogenated vegetable oils and spreads, they have zero health benefits over butter/olive oil, they're just cheaper.

Around the mediterranian they get a lot of calories from olive oil, and I know a guy who drinks up to a pint of olive-oil a day when he's "bulking".
I wouldn't go to that extreme personally, but olive oil is great stuff. Calorificaly dense (almot 4000 calories in a pint), and well-documented health benefits. You could do a lot worse than supplementing it into your diet. Cold-pressed extra-virgin olive oil is the best, but even the cheapest olive oil is better than vegetable oils.

Also, when you mention drinking 2 litres of milk a day for the longterm, I think you're missing the point of GOMAD. It's not for the long-term, it's for putting on weight until you reach your target.
You'll need to eat more to maintain with a higher muscle-mass, but no-one's suggesting 6000+ calories long-term unless you're a sumo wrestler. ;)

[Dastardly]

You should double check your assumption about polyunsaturated fats. Some of the stuff I've been reading lately suggests vegetable oil is the devil.

Just saying. I'd be interested in what you find out or what other board members have to say.


I think the vegetable oil deal is all about quality. Weston Price foundation has done lots of writing about this if you want to look it up.

Vegetable oils contain omega-3 & omega-6 fatty acids which are essential for human health, so vegetable oil cannot be that bad.

Bill Starr actually has information in his book suggesting we focus on getting all of our fats from plant sources. I think people have gone over-the-top with the whole saturated/animal fat thing recently. Sure it is not bad for you, but neither are they the best way to get your EFA's.

Seed oils are delicate & fragile, they are very sensitive to light & heat. Most of the oil you see on a supermarket shelf is extracted using heat, and then put in a clear bottle where the light can damage it more. Then people mostly use it for frying!

Good extra virgin olive oil is the top quality/high purity oil retrieved from careful mechanical pressing, then it is usually put in a dark bottle.

You can also get the more common rapeseed oil in a high quality cold-pressed version but it is expensive.

The oil is still unsuitable for frying as it is very delicate and burns/oxidises easily but to have cold or slightly warmed in sauces its fine.

For frying, saturated fats are better because they are more robust and dont get damaged/become rancid easily. Plant based palm oils or animal fats would probably be the best choice here.

From Wiki

Deepfry oils and baking fats that are high in saturated fats, like palm oil, tallow or lard, can withstand extreme heat (of 180-200 degrees Celsius) and are resistant to oxidation. A 2001 parallel review of 20-year dietary fat studies in the United Kingdom, the United States of America and Spain concluded that polyunsaturated oils like soya, canola, sunflower and corn degrade easily to toxic compounds and trans fat when heated up. Prolonged consumption of trans fat-laden oxidized oils can lead to atherosclerosis, inflammatory joint disease and development of birth defects. The scientists also questioned global health authorities’ wilful recommendation of large amounts of polyunsaturated fats into the human diet without accompanying measures to ensure the protection of these fatty acids against heat- and oxidative-degradation.[6]

In regards to cheap olive oil being better than other vegetable oils, I believe that is a false assumption. Olive oil is not magical, it actually contains a lot of omega-9 which is not an essential fatty acid. Surely for our purposes of recovery we want to focus our fat intake on the essential stuff?

The best option, but rather expensive would be fish oil. Which has many potent & useful effects for us.

[Rorschach]

Vegetable oils contain omega-3 & omega-6 fatty acids which are essential for human health, so vegetable oil cannot be that bad.
That logic doesn't follow. Would you take vitamin tablets with arsenic in them? You can get O3 and O6 elsewhere.


Olive oil is not magical, it actually contains a lot of omega-9 which is not an essential fatty acid. Surely for our purposes of recovery we want to focus our fat intake on the essential stuff?
That logic also doesn't follow. Just because olive oil isn't pure essential oils doesn't mean you should avoid it. No-one's saying you should live off olive-oil.


The best option, but rather expensive would be fish oil. Which has many potent & useful effects for us.
It'd also taste like arse. :P
I'll stick to my capsules, no chance of my frying bacon in fish oil. ;)

[Dastardly]

That logic doesn't follow. Would you take vitamin tablets with arsenic in them? You can get O3 and O6 elsewhere.

You can get O3 & O6 from seed & nut oils or fish. Not from meat.


That logic also doesn't follow. Just because olive oil isn't pure essential oils doesn't mean you should avoid it. No-one's saying you should live off olive-oil.

I never said you should avoid it, just not deem other plant based oils as inferior.


It'd also taste like arse. :P
I'll stick to my capsules, no chance of my frying bacon in fish oil. ;)


A big point of what I was saying was that non-saturated oils are absolutely unsuitable for high-temp frying. I also said that meat derived fats (like from your bacon) is not bad for you, is actually the best thing you could fry your bacon in (its own saturated animal fat) it is just not a good source of EFA's


We are talking about fat intake for recovery here, am I right? So logic does suggest that targetting decent EFA sources would be the best option. Fish oil does not have to be consumed through supplements, eating large quantities of Sardines, Mackerel will do just fine. Have you ever seen the quantity of oil that come out of a fresh fish? (its a lot)

I also assume that good quality fish oil supplements are more condensed in EFA's than raw fish oil out of a fish. (I have not looked this up so dont know for sure) So perhaps taking a swig of bottled fish oil everyday is extremely valuable volume-wise.

[Sami]

Dastardly, please stop. You're making many errors.

n-3 FAs from vegetable sources are crap. They're not the right kind of n-3s. And you're completely wrong about getting n-3s/n-6s from meat. Firstly, you're obviously not including fish, but you may not consider that 'meat'. Secondly, real 'meat' absolutely contains n-3/n-6s. Eggs have a lot of n-6s, but if you feed the chicken flax seed, they convert the ALA n-3 into EPA/DHA in their eggs to make them a great source of 'useful' n-3 FAs. I think their meat also has more n-3s too.

Grain fed beef has predominantly n-6 FAs, but if you feed them grass, they have a lot more n-3. I think the grain fed 6:3 ratio is like 4:1 or higher, and the grass fed is like 2:1 or lower. Makes sense, since cows eat grass naturally, you'd expect them to have a 'healthier' fatty acid profile.

But you're right about supplementing fish oil. But I wouldn't recommend eating the fish required to match the levels we typically supplement with, as mercury poisoning can be a very real issue.

Olive oil is probably okay (not the devil), but it's mostly n-6, so it's something to consider when trying to correct an overall intake ratio. But they're starting to believe that it's not the olive oil itself that is having the benefits, it's the polyphenols it contains that is where the 'magic' is. And the more 'virgin' it is, the more polyphenols it contains. Polyphenols are the things found in wine, amongst other 'healthy' things.

I wouldn't go out of my way to get olive oil, but I wouldn't avoid it. I'd avoid canola, corn, and most vegetable oils if can. But don't get fanatical.

[Sami]

But either way, the OP has me very confused.

What is it that you want to eat? General macronutrient ratios and calorie intake? What kind of fats do you want to include, and what kind of fats do you want to avoid?

To be honest, I don't know why you're wanting to mimic anything like the 'normal healthy slim person diet'. Chances are, they're slim by default/chance, because they don't eat much. That doesn't make them inherently healthy, though not being obese will generally mean you're healthier than the average obese person.

And don't avoid saturated fats. There is no link between saturated fats and heart disease.

[ColoWayno]

Sammy help!

The fish oil I brought went rancid in my overheated room (I was turning off the AC during the day)

I bought the only thing I could find here. It is a 3-6-9 combo. I don't think the product statement reflects the best of our current knowledge.

"This remarkable product is a blend of Fish, Borage and organic Flax Oils, all of which contain the polyunsaturated fatty acis your body needs. Among them are Omega-3 (EPA & DHA), gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), and Omega-6 fatty acids, which are important for promoting heart, cellular and metabolic health. This product also include Omega-9 fatty acids"

Should I just wait until my wife ships me some good stuff?

It's Sundown Naturals Triple Omega 3-6-9.

I already have some athero in my legs.

[Dastardly]

I was looking most of this up as I wrote it, I guess that was a mistake!

I have Bill Starrs book and was checking Wikipedia page on EFA's and neither mentioned meat as a source of EFA's. Starr's book actually strongly recommends plant sources for EFA's specifically.

well this is kind of embarassing!

Ok, so red meat is a good source of Omega-3 if it is grass fed. It seems sheep is more likely to be grass fed than cows too. Which is good in my case, as I mainly eat mutton.

But still, omega or n-3 fatty acids are UNsaturated. So in regards to the OP's question the answer is similar.

The essential fats are the non-saturated ones, which makes the question a kind of misnomer.

[Rorschach]

That logic doesn't follow. Would you take vitamin tablets with arsenic in them? You can get O3 and O6 elsewhere.

You can get O3 & O6 from seed & nut oils or fish. Not from meat.
So eat fish or nuts (or meat re. Sami's post). No need to use hydrogenated vegetable oils.


I never said you should avoid it, just not deem other plant based oils as inferior.
Why not? :D
Specifically hydrogenated vegetable oils - I don't have a problem with, say, flaxseed oil, beyond the issues of it being overpriced and overmarketed.



A big point of what I was saying was that non-saturated oils are absolutely unsuitable for high-temp frying.
Absolutely is a strong word here. You're more likely to break down the fat molecules frying olive oil than the saturated fats of butter, yes, but there's a whole world of difference between frying for a few minutes, and hydrogenation in a vat - it's a lot hotter and highly pressurised for a start. I'm no going to lose sleep over a tiny amount of heat damage from frying with olive oil.


I also said that meat derived fats (like from your bacon) is not bad for you, is actually the best thing you could fry your bacon in (its own saturated animal fat) it is just not a good source of EFA's
Agreed, but the question was about any potential risks from consuming large amounts of olive oil, not whether olive oil is a super-food which provides you with all the essentials.



We are talking about fat intake for recovery here, am I right? So logic does suggest that targetting decent EFA sources would be the best option. Fish oil does not have to be consumed through supplements, eating large quantities of Sardines, Mackerel will do just fine. Have you ever seen the quantity of oil that come out of a fresh fish? (its a lot)
Of course, oily fish is highly nutritious. Fish and olive oil aren't mutually exclusive though, you can have both. ;)
A tin of mackerel is about 200-250 kcal, I doubt the OP wants to be eating 10 a day.


I also assume that good quality fish oil supplements are more condensed in EFA's than raw fish oil out of a fish. (I have not looked this up so dont know for sure) So perhaps taking a swig of bottled fish oil everyday is extremely valuable volume-wise.
Swigging neat fish oil seems particularly masochistic. ;) I'll stick to capsules, even if they're a bit more expensive.

[Rorschach]

The essential fats are the non-saturated ones, which makes the question a kind of misnomer.

How so?

[Dastardly]

The question "Any downside to LOTS of non-saturated fats?" suggests a presumption that lots of Saturated fats are OK and the non-saturated are the ones which are less necessary and what we should be suspicious of.

This is also an assumption on my part, but I get the feeling that all this hype over Saturated fat being good/not bad for you has gone to peoples heads somewhat. It seems some people are assuming only saturated fats are worth consuming.

The OP's question suggests fear that non-saturated fats may be bad for him.

But the underlying point is that the essential fats are unsaturated. So "LOTs of non-saturated fats" are not going to be bad for health and more useful than Saturated fats, because saturated fats are no essential to our biological functions. Sami has informed us that these valuable EFA's can be found in grass-fed beef which is great.

[Dastardly]

Swigging neat fish oil seems particularly masochistic. ;) I'll stick to capsules, even if they're a bit more expensive.

Ive been doing this and have grown to like it. Modern highly filtered oils with citrus flavour is actually quite nice.

[Beltshumeltz]

Sami:

My base diet before lifting was pretty much what the average doctor would recommend to the average person. More specifically, lots of carbs from whole grains, lots of vegetables and fruits, lots of beans, and a bit more than the recommend protein intake for sedentary people - probably around 80-100 g per day. I ate enough to maintain a bodyweight of 180 pounds at 5'8" on eating that, plus some chocolate and occasional junk food.

The reason for my question is that I now eat probably 1000 calories more than before merely to maintain my weight (185 now) at my new level of activity and since conditioning is a personal goal of mine, this requirement will only go up as my performance and muscle mass goes up. Eating that much will be a life-time commitment even for maintaining weight, so I want to make that more physically comfortable and healthy.

Eating as much as I need is somewhat uncomfortable with so much carbs and I heard good things about non-saturated fat. I mentioned milk not out of a misunderstanding of the purpose of GOMAD, but rather because even for maintenance, it's easier than to eat more solid food. So if I can replace 1 liter of milk plus 700 calories worth of grain food by a few spoons of oil and even get health benefits out of it, it sounds awesome!

Good news for everyone here by the way. I am researching on olive oil turning into trans-fat right now and it seems to be unsupported or misleading, although I haven't verified the source quoted in this thread yet. Apparently, even at deep-frying temperatures, it takes several hours for oil to turn into trans-fat. The process for even making trans fats was discovered a century ago and requires "sparging" hydrogen atoms at oil mixed with a nickel catalyst at very high temperatures, for some time. Therefore, this is unlikely to occur in your kitchen to any significant degree. "Significant degree" is the key here. But who should we listen to?

http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/heating-olive-oil
Myth: Heating Olive Oil Will Make it Saturated or Trans-fatty.
One common myth is that heating olive oil will make it saturated or trans-fatty.
This is not true. As far as making a saturated fat, according to Dr. A. Kiritsakis, a world renowned oil chemist in Athens, in his book Olive Oil from the Tree to the Table -Second edition 1998, all oils will oxidize and hydrogenate to a tiny degree if repeatedly heated to very high temperatures such as is done in commercial frying operations. Olive-pomace oils and virgin olive oils are both highly monounsaturated oils and therefore resistant to oxidation and hydrogenation. Studies have shown oxidation and hydrogenation occurs to a lesser degree in olive oil than in other oils. But in any case, the amount of hydrogenation is miniscule and no home cook would ever experience this problem.

The large refinery-like factories that take unsaturated vegetable oil and turn it into margarine or vegetable lard do so by bubbling hydrogen gas through 250 to 400ºF (121 to 204ºC) hot vegetable oil in the presence of a metal catalyst, usually nickel or platinum. The process can take several hours. You cannot make a saturated product like margarine at home by heating olive oil or any other vegetable oil in a pan. We don't know where this weird notion has come from. For more details, see Olive Chemistry.

Changing a cis-fat to a trans-fat does not occur on a home stove.

Also look up trans-fats on wikipedia.

[Beltshumeltz]

The question "Any downside to LOTS of non-saturated fats?" suggests a presumption that lots of Saturated fats are OK and the non-saturated are the ones which are less necessary and what we should be suspicious of.

This is also an assumption on my part, but I get the feeling that all this hype over Saturated fat being good/not bad for you has gone to peoples heads somewhat. It seems some people are assuming only saturated fats are worth consuming.

The OP's question suggests fear that non-saturated fats may be bad for him.

But the underlying point is that the essential fats are unsaturated. So "LOTs of non-saturated fats" are not going to be bad for health and more useful than Saturated fats, because saturated fats are no essential to our biological functions. Sami has informed us that these valuable EFA's can be found in grass-fed beef which is great.

Sorry but you misunderstood my post.

My post needs to be taken exactly as I wrote it - your assumptions were not accurate. I just want to know if huge quantities of non-saturated oils are OK to consume, above what is usually suggested. There are known health benefits for taking say 2 spoons of olive oil per day, but I'm asking about taking 10 to 20.

But to answer the assumptions - first, common knowledge, whether accurate or not, is that saturated fats are BAD, and non-saturated GOOD. On this board, I have read that saturated fats are not to be blamed for health problems. But non-saturated fats aren't just "not bad for health", they are actually known to give cardiac health benefits over not consuming them.

So I don't have a fear that non-saturated fats are bad, as I believe that it is healthier to consume them than not to. I'm just worried about doing things in excess.

I'd like to repeat what I said in the first post though: I know the accepted views of saturated fats of this forum, so I was hoping that we could discuss non-saturated fats without derailing about saturated fats. Although they are both fats, they really don't need to be discussed together since they are separate issues.

I'm curious about data on Omega-6 from Olive oil though. I thought they were mostly Omega-9s. Will they fuck up my Omega 3 to 6 ratio badly?

[Rorschach]

The question "Any downside to LOTS of non-saturated fats?" suggests a presumption that lots of Saturated fats are OK and the non-saturated are the ones which are less necessary and what we should be suspicious of.
...
The OP's question suggests fear that non-saturated fats may be bad for him.
I don't read it like that. He said he recognises the health benefits of unsaturated fats (though I disagree with his inclusion of all unsaturated fats). Consuming an extra 2000 calories a day of anything is a big dietary change, and it's not entirely unreasonable to be initially wary.


This is also an assumption on my part, but I get the feeling that all this hype over Saturated fat being good/not bad for you has gone to peoples heads somewhat. It seems some people are assuming only saturated fats are worth consuming.
Perhaps, but the OP doesn't seem to be one of them. You may be mistaking a "raaa meat!" mentality on the board for people implying you should live off nothing but meat.




But the underlying point is that the essential fats are unsaturated. So "LOTs of non-saturated fats" are not going to be bad for health and more useful than Saturated fats, because saturated fats are no essential to our biological functions. Sami has informed us that these valuable EFA's can be found in grass-fed beef which is great.

Lots of unsaturated fats can be bad for you. Firstly, you can have too much of a good thing (eg. some vitamins are toxic in very high quantities). Some people suffer side-effects from GOMAD, for example.
Secondly, trans-fats are unsaturated, so it's not unreasonable to ask for clarification.
Anyway, we're arguing semantics now. :P
Lets just agree that increasing olive-oil in your diet is fine, and isn't going to cause health problems.

[NKT]

But non-saturated fats aren't just "not bad for health", they are actually known to give cardiac health benefits over not consuming them.

This is a common assertion, but is not supported by ANY studies or experiments that I know of. This is baseless propaganda initiated by the vegetable oil industry. Please prove me wrong.

[Beltshumeltz]

This is a common assertion, but is not supported by ANY studies or experiments that I know of. This is baseless propaganda initiated by the vegetable oil industry. Please prove me wrong.

Closely enough related, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil#Nutrition_and_health_effects
You can probably learn about this from the sources listed in the claims. Also the FDA approved the right to write about cardiac health benefits on Olive oil. I'm in a hurry and bad with reading studies, but the gist of what I read is that olive oil is really good, and in general poly and unsaturated fats are good. For example, everything you hear about omega-3s? That's a non-saturated fat.

I do think "vegetable oil" unqualified is more controversial though.

[NKT]

Closely enough related, check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil#Nutrition_and_health_effects
You can probably learn about this from the sources listed in the claims. Also the FDA approved the right to write about cardiac health benefits on Olive oil. I'm in a hurry and bad with reading studies, but the gist of what I read is that olive oil is really good, and in general poly and unsaturated fats are good. For example, everything you hear about omega-3s? That's a non-saturated fat.

I do think "vegetable oil" unqualified is more controversial though.

I'm well aware that it's "common knowledge" that vegetable oils are "good". The problem is that there is an inherent conflict of interest in the topic. The same companies that are making a huge amount of money off of the idea that vegetable oils are healthy are heavily involved in funding studies and organizations that reach those conclusions. If you dig deeper, you'll find that you can't really find a study that demonstrates that the new vegetable oils (corn, rapeseed, etc) promote health.

Olive oil has been demonstrated to be a health-promoting oil, but it is flawed logic to extend that health-promoting category to include other vegetable oils or even unsaturated fats. The wikipedia article you cite has a paragraph describing a study that pretty clearly demonstrates that olive oil's phenolic content is responsible for increasing arterial elasticity, rather than it's unsaturated fat content.

I'm not interested in getting into a long debate on this topic. I've done my research and drawn my own conclusions. I'm just suggesting that you do some critical thinking and research on the topic, and look beyond the organizations that are heavily influenced by the vegetable oil industry (FDA, Mayo Clinic, etc.) before you jump on the vege-oil bandwagon and drink tons of the stuff in an effort to improve your health.

Edit: if you do come across a study or experiment that clearly demonstrates a health benefit from the new vege oils (corn, safflower, rapeseed, etc), I would be very interested in hearing about it.

[gzt]

I was looking most of this up as I wrote it, I guess that was a mistake!
Yes. You have this bad habit of writing stuff that's wrong because you don't actually know it. I believe we've discussed this before. Also, Starr's book is kind of old. A lot of this research is recent.

[Sami]

Sammy help!

The fish oil I brought went rancid in my overheated room (I was turning off the AC during the day)

I bought the only thing I could find here. It is a 3-6-9 combo. I don't think the product statement reflects the best of our current knowledge.

"This remarkable product is a blend of Fish, Borage and organic Flax Oils, all of which contain the polyunsaturated fatty acis your body needs. Among them are Omega-3 (EPA & DHA), gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), and Omega-6 fatty acids, which are important for promoting heart, cellular and metabolic health. This product also include Omega-9 fatty acids"

Should I just wait until my wife ships me some good stuff?

It's Sundown Naturals Triple Omega 3-6-9.

I already have some athero in my legs.

I really can't see any point in the 3-6-9 combo. We get 6 in everything we eat almost, and 9 isn't even essential. I really don't know for sure if I'd rather not take it all to be honest, but I can't give you any real definitive reason not to. Personally, I'd lean towards not taking it, but that's just me.

How long until a new shipment gets to you?

[Sami]

I was looking most of this up as I wrote it, I guess that was a mistake!

I have Bill Starrs book and was checking Wikipedia page on EFA's and neither mentioned meat as a source of EFA's. Starr's book actually strongly recommends plant sources for EFA's specifically.

well this is kind of embarassing!

Ok, so red meat is a good source of Omega-3 if it is grass fed. It seems sheep is more likely to be grass fed than cows too. Which is good in my case, as I mainly eat mutton.

But still, omega or n-3 fatty acids are UNsaturated. So in regards to the OP's question the answer is similar.

The essential fats are the non-saturated ones, which makes the question a kind of misnomer.

The essential n-3 FAs are ALA, EPA and DHA. The problem with plant sourced n-3s is that they're almost all ALA. But the beneficial EFAs are EPA and DHA. Now, our bodies can convert a bit of ALA to EPA/DHA, but it's highly inefficient and it's only barely adequate; not enough really to get all those lovely 'fish oil' benefits we keep hearing so much about.

And yes, lamb is decent as it's, I think, exclusively grass fed in the UK. Maybe in other countries, not sure.

[Sami]

Swigging neat fish oil seems particularly masochistic. ;) I'll stick to capsules, even if they're a bit more expensive.

Where are you getting your fish oil? I get from myprotein.co.uk, and it's fairly benign. Once, I got tesco's childrens fish oil. They claimed it was lemon flavoured, but I claim it was 'mouldy mackerel' flavoured. I simply could not take. But myprotein's doesn't even taste like fish at all, and they're the cheapest per g of EPA/DHA I've seen anywhere in the UK. No, I don't work for them.

[Sami]

Sami:

My base diet before lifting was pretty much what the average doctor would recommend to the average person. More specifically, lots of carbs from whole grains, lots of vegetables and fruits, lots of beans, and a bit more than the recommend protein intake for sedentary people - probably around 80-100 g per day. I ate enough to maintain a bodyweight of 180 pounds at 5'8" on eating that, plus some chocolate and occasional junk food.

The reason for my question is that I now eat probably 1000 calories more than before merely to maintain my weight (185 now) at my new level of activity and since conditioning is a personal goal of mine, this requirement will only go up as my performance and muscle mass goes up. Eating that much will be a life-time commitment even for maintaining weight, so I want to make that more physically comfortable and healthy.

Eating as much as I need is somewhat uncomfortable with so much carbs and I heard good things about non-saturated fat. I mentioned milk not out of a misunderstanding of the purpose of GOMAD, but rather because even for maintenance, it's easier than to eat more solid food. So if I can replace 1 liter of milk plus 700 calories worth of grain food by a few spoons of oil and even get health benefits out of it, it sounds awesome!

Good news for everyone here by the way. I am researching on olive oil turning into trans-fat right now and it seems to be unsupported or misleading, although I haven't verified the source quoted in this thread yet. Apparently, even at deep-frying temperatures, it takes several hours for oil to turn into trans-fat. The process for even making trans fats was discovered a century ago and requires "sparging" hydrogen atoms at oil mixed with a nickel catalyst at very high temperatures, for some time. Therefore, this is unlikely to occur in your kitchen to any significant degree. "Significant degree" is the key here. But who should we listen to?

http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/heating-olive-oil
Myth: Heating Olive Oil Will Make it Saturated or Trans-fatty.
One common myth is that heating olive oil will make it saturated or trans-fatty.
This is not true. As far as making a saturated fat, according to Dr. A. Kiritsakis, a world renowned oil chemist in Athens, in his book Olive Oil from the Tree to the Table -Second edition 1998, all oils will oxidize and hydrogenate to a tiny degree if repeatedly heated to very high temperatures such as is done in commercial frying operations. Olive-pomace oils and virgin olive oils are both highly monounsaturated oils and therefore resistant to oxidation and hydrogenation. Studies have shown oxidation and hydrogenation occurs to a lesser degree in olive oil than in other oils. But in any case, the amount of hydrogenation is miniscule and no home cook would ever experience this problem.

The large refinery-like factories that take unsaturated vegetable oil and turn it into margarine or vegetable lard do so by bubbling hydrogen gas through 250 to 400ºF (121 to 204ºC) hot vegetable oil in the presence of a metal catalyst, usually nickel or platinum. The process can take several hours. You cannot make a saturated product like margarine at home by heating olive oil or any other vegetable oil in a pan. We don't know where this weird notion has come from. For more details, see Olive Chemistry.

Changing a cis-fat to a trans-fat does not occur on a home stove.

Also look up trans-fats on wikipedia.

I don't know who mentioned olive oil being saturated or hydrogenated in this thread, but that's certainly false.

And yes, olive oil is mostly n-9, but also contains n-6 and no n-3. I don't really know how this will affect n-3:6 ratios.

Leaving that.

The typically recommended diets from MDs are shit. Typically, 50-70% carbs, 15-20% protein and around 10% fat.

From what you describe, you're getting about 90g of protein so 360kcal, about 150-200ml of olive, plus other dietary fat, so you're looking at almost 2000kcal from fat. If we assume you're eating about 3250-ish kcal total to maintain weight, that's another 1000kcal from carbs.

So you're looking at roughly 30c/10p/60f. I think you can do better. Get more protein. A lot more. If you follow any of the paleo stuff, you'd probably not eating grains. Maybe worth a look at their opinion on the matter, so you've a got more than one view.

Here's an interesting short vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

[Sami]

Consuming an extra 2000 calories a day of anything is a big dietary change, and it's not entirely unreasonable to be initially wary.

Agreed.


I also agree that hydrogenated fats need to be avoided. These are the ones trans fats are found in. The issue with trans fats is, they're not a naturally occurring molecule that we've ever consumed in any significantly amount. We don't have the appropriate enzymes to deal with them appropriately. Don't get fanatical about them, just don't buy the crap.

[Rorschach]

I don't know who mentioned olive oil being saturated or hydrogenated in this thread, but that's certainly false.


No-one did, nor did he in that post. :P
He's talking about chemical changes through heat, not the normal composition of olive oil.

[BCGuy]

Dastardly, please stop. You're making many errors.

n-3 FAs from vegetable sources are crap. They're not the right kind of n-3s. And you're completely wrong about getting n-3s/n-6s from meat. Firstly, you're obviously not including fish, but you may not consider that 'meat'. Secondly, real 'meat' absolutely contains n-3/n-6s. Eggs have a lot of n-6s, but if you feed the chicken flax seed, they convert the ALA n-3 into EPA/DHA in their eggs to make them a great source of 'useful' n-3 FAs. I think their meat also has more n-3s too.

Grain fed beef has predominantly n-6 FAs, but if you feed them grass, they have a lot more n-3. I think the grain fed 6:3 ratio is like 4:1 or higher, and the grass fed is like 2:1 or lower. Makes sense, since cows eat grass naturally, you'd expect them to have a 'healthier' fatty acid profile.

But you're right about supplementing fish oil. But I wouldn't recommend eating the fish required to match the levels we typically supplement with, as mercury poisoning can be a very real issue.

Olive oil is probably okay (not the devil), but it's mostly n-6, so it's something to consider when trying to correct an overall intake ratio. But they're starting to believe that it's not the olive oil itself that is having the benefits, it's the polyphenols it contains that is where the 'magic' is. And the more 'virgin' it is, the more polyphenols it contains. Polyphenols are the things found in wine, amongst other 'healthy' things.

I wouldn't go out of my way to get olive oil, but I wouldn't avoid it. I'd avoid canola, corn, and most vegetable oils if can. But don't get fanatical.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the omega 3:6 ratio in canola oil is better than olive oil.

Now that I think about it, the euric acid in the original crops was unhealthy...not sure if that is still an issue...guess I will need to read more on this

[ColoWayno]

I really can't see any point in the 3-6-9 combo. We get 6 in everything we eat almost, and 9 isn't even essential. I really don't know for sure if I'd rather not take it all to be honest, but I can't give you any real definitive reason not to. Personally, I'd lean towards not taking it, but that's just me.

How long until a new shipment gets to you?
Thanks!
I was leaning in the same direction. I haven't opened it yet.
Should be a week or two. It's not a big deal to wait since athero is really slow to progress. I can't wait until I can get home to my nice grass fed beef and decent food that's not overcooked.
Missing my family, and good food (in that order) is the worst part about this job.

[Sami]

No-one did, nor did he in that post. :P
He's talking about chemical changes through heat, not the normal composition of olive oil.

Yeah, I know that, lol. I suppose I should've said 'becoming' instead 'being'. I meant 'saturated' and 'hydrogenated' as the past tense verb.

[Sami]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the omega 3:6 ratio in canola oil is better than olive oil.

Now that I think about it, the euric acid in the original crops was unhealthy...not sure if that is still an issue...guess I will need to read more on this

The n-3 in canola oil is ALA. ALA is of little use to us. In fact, ALA is converted to EPA/DHA (the useful n-3s) in our bodies, but it's highly inefficient and barely adequate to stave of death. The Canola Oil company is allowed to say on their bottles that it's 'good for the heart', or some shit, not because of the omega 3 content, but because of the absence of saturated fats (but even that logic is ridiculous because there is no link between saturated fats and heart disease WHATSOEVER).

And Canola Oil is genetically modified, if that bothers you.

[Beltshumeltz]

Thanks for all the info Sami

By the way no worries about my protein intake - I have fixed that since I started lifting through 2 daily cans of sardines, 2-3 cans of chicken, 2-4 whey and casein shakes and 1-2 liters of milk :)

[T.J.]

What's the story with canned chicken? I've always been afraid to try it. Do you mix it with mayo or olive oil like canned tuna?

[Beltshumeltz]

I buy them at the dollar store.

26g of protein
1.5g of fat (sometimes 3)
0.5g is saturated
A bit of salt

I either take them with dijon mustard, mustard & honey, or with barbecue spices or other pre-mixed spices (pizza spices, cajun spices).

I eat one can of chicken per meal.

On top of it, eating one with a lot of barbecue spices will take care of any cravings for chips you may have at the moment.

Oh, and it's funny to literally empty a bunch of shelves of chicken cans in an aggressive manner. It makes people think you're about to steal them. And you get funny looks and questions at the cashier. I usually buy 40-60 at once, and I've emptied so many stores I had to look online for other dollar stores. Fortunately, their logistics have since improved and they refill their shelves more often.

[strengthstarter]

A few observations after reading this thread, which I am not going to pick through and cite who/what I am responding to:

1. People are talking about using flax seed oil for n-3 oils. This is fine, but DO NOT HEAT THIS OIL. At high temperatures, this turns into a polymer and you do not want to be eating that. This is why people use flax oil to season their pots and pans. It creates a polymer coating on the pan that is non-stick and when done in the oven, hardens enough that it does not come off.

2. Personally, I am wary of using olive oil for frying. Yeah, its probably not the end of the world, but why not choose a high temperature oil that is suitable? Canola can be used in a pinch, although I prefer avocado oil for this purpose.

3. As someone pointed out, n-3 fats can be in beef and other meats besides fish, although fish is one of the most concentrated sources. Vegetable sources of n-3 all kinda suck, except for an algae-sourced one that is supposed to contain EPA and be very good. But it is expensive and kind of hard to find, so unless you are a vegetarian, it is probably not worth it.

4. I would urge the OP, if he wants to increase his unsaturated fat intake, to look at doing it in more enjoyable ways than chugging oil. Nuts, avocados, and olive oil-based salad dressings come to mind.

[Beltshumeltz]

Thanks, and good ideas. I'm gonna investigate different kinds of nuts and oil sources.