Israeli Pirate/Terrorists Attack - discuss

[bowdirk]

As you may know, Israeli Military Terrorists attacked 6 unarmed boats full of Humanitarian aid in International waters Killing at least 9 and wounding dozens.

24 hours later and they won't even release the victims names. How petty is that?

Anyhow, some people are so blinded by the decades long Israeli propoganda that they will believe whatever BS story Israeli Sympathizers make up. But that won't change the fact that Israel:

1) Attacked civilian ships in International Waters (Piracy)
2) Killed and wounded dozens of people in the act of piracy (Murder)
3) took the ships to an Israeli port (Piracy and Theft)
4) Is holding 100's hostage for over 24 hours (Kidnapping)
5) Has created more terrorist talking points and recruitment, which harms US interests
and...
6) Will absolutely get away with it scott-free, due to the Israeli sympathizers in the US government and media

Discuss,
Bowdirk

[ColoWayno]

This is getting old. You don't know what happened any more than the rest of us.

[Terminater135]

As you may know, Israeli Military Terrorists attacked 6 unarmed boats full of Humanitarian aid in International waters Killing at least 9 and wounding dozens.

24 hours later and they won't even release the victims names. How petty is that?

Anyhow, some people are so blinded by the decades long Israeli propoganda that they will believe whatever BS story Israeli Sympathizers make up. But that won't change the fact that Israel:

1) Attacked civilian ships in International Waters (Piracy)
2) Killed and wounded dozens of people in the act of piracy (Murder)
3) took the ships to an Israeli port (Piracy and Theft)
4) Is holding 100's hostage for over 24 hours (Kidnapping)
5) Has created more terrorist talking points and recruitment, which harms US interests
and...
6) Will absolutely get away with it scott-free, due to the Israeli sympathizers in the US government and media

Discuss,
Bowdirk

You forgot to mention that the passengers on the marmara attacked the soldiers with clubs, knifes, and firearms.

The other ships surrendered peacfully and no one was harmed.

Here's a video of the marmara during the first soldiers airdrop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6wKvKjoepI&feature=related
You can also see that the soldiers use paint-ball guns, stop the video at 0:52 its pretty clear there.

You fail at life, fuck you.

[TrackJunkie]

You forgot to mention that the passengers on the marmara attacked the soldiers with clubs, knifes, and firearms.

The other ships surrendered peacfully and no one was harmed.

Here's a video of the marmara during the first soldiers airdrop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6wKvKjoepI&feature=related
You can also see that the soldiers use paint-ball guns, stop the video at 0:52 its pretty clear there.

You fail at life, fuck you.

Is defending yourself from armed soldiers in international water a crime now?

[Sami]

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

[Terminater135]

Is defending yourself from armed soldiers in international water a crime now?

Oh no! they had paint-ball guns! weapons of mass destruction!

No one was harmed on the other ships, the soldiers didnt use force, they werent defending themselves from anything.

[Terminater135]

By the way TrackJunkie, is defending yourself from terrorists who launch rockets into your country a crime?

[BravoFox]

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

[gzt]

We can point fingers all day. "Is it illegal to fight back against people who kicked you off your land 60 years ago?"

[Terminater135]

We can point fingers all day. "Is it illegal to fight back against people who kicked you off your land 60 years ago?"

Hmmmmm, actually there was a war and they lost, and they attacked first.

[bowdirk]

Hey Terminator,

I posted some specific numbered points that you are free to try and refute, but you can't, because they are all absolutely factually correct.

You have already posted 4 times on this thread, and have said nothing substantive.

Troll harder...

Or they may take you off the payroll...

Bowdirk

[gzt]

It's more complicated than that and you know it. My point is that people can argue and point fingers all day. It's not terribly productive.

[Terminater135]

It's more complicated than that and you know it. My point is that people can argue and point fingers all day. It's not terribly productive.

With that I agree.

[The Sun]

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/video/video.php?v=1423052090887&oid=125841634102871 (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#%21/video/video.php?v=1423052090887&oid=125841634102871)

this is obviously "peace activists" material.
the Marmara ship sailed in order to cause reaction and get into trouble.
what if the ship carried 10 tons of explosive and bust Ashdod to the sky?

the ship was asked to stop by Ashdod port for a security check, and refused, of course.

bowdick - know your facts.

[Terminater135]

Hey Terminator,

I posted some specific numbered points that you are free to try and refute, but you can't, because they are all absolutely factually correct.

You have already posted 4 times on this thread, and have said nothing substantive.

Troll harder...

Or they may take you off the payroll...

Bowdirk

No problem:

1) Attacked civilian ships in International Waters (Piracy)
Which was headed to our territorial waters with the means of acting against us

2) Killed and wounded dozens of people in the act of piracy (Murder)
As you can see we didnt have much of a choice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6wKv...eature=
The killed and wounded were only on the Marmara.

3) took the ships to an Israeli port (Piracy and Theft)
With the intent of delivering the goods to Gaza.

4) Is holding 100's hostage for over 24 hours (Kidnapping)
Most (if not all) of the hostages are actually israeli citizens who are going to be on trail for breaking the law.

5) Has created more terrorist talking points and recruitment, which harms US interests

You really are stupid if you think its our fault that the terrorists are created, and that it really matters to the US.
terrorists in the areas serrounding Israel, Gaza and Lebonon, have no business with the US. The groups that you say may grow, the Hamas and Hezbollah, dont do any actions against the US.


and...
6) Will absolutely get away with it scott-free, due to the Israeli sympathizers in the US government and media
Unfortunalty for us, you'r wrong, though I think your happy about that.


You still fail.

By the way, how much the Hamas pays you per post? did they pay you extra for opening this thread?

[The Sun]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs302.snc3/28711_1209590300414_1848437874_399220_6457028_n.jp g

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs572.snc3/31224_128498143842598_100000472395437_286188_69181 1_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs573.snc3/31279_405031054892_632609892_4018039_5647687_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs503.ash1/29778_435270876141_574591141_6155277_7891029_n.jpg




PEACE!!!!!!

[Smiler Grogan]

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/57JMST

I will have to get the skinny on this from my international law expert wife. Both sides look bad here.

[TrackJunkie]

By the way TrackJunkie, is defending yourself from terrorists who launch rockets into your country a crime?

Well clearly it depends on how you defend yourself. If you respond by attacking the people who are attacking you, no problem. If you respond by attacking humanitarian aid workers, that's a different beast entirely.

Now, clearly I don't know exactly what happened here, but here are the facts as I understand them, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ships were boarded in international waters.
The soldiers who boarded one of those ships killed many of the people on board.
You keep claiming that they were armed only with paintball guns, so are we supposed to assume that IDF issue paintball guns are deadly weapons(which would make self-defense justified), or that the soldiers were actually carrying more deadly weapons(like pistols, which Israel claims the passengers stole from soldiers and used to fire at them).
Everything about this that I've heard points towards a particular interpretation of the events. Specifically, soldiers equipped with deadly weapons boarded ships in international waters, which they had no right to do, and the passengers defended themselves.

The weapons found aboard this "flotilla of hate" appear to be mostly kitchen knives, sticks and construction equipment. I spy with my little eye one knife that doesn't look particularly useful in cooking, but unless the IDF has started an embargo on cookware and construction tools, it looks to me like the IDF has a disgustingly high ratio of kills to confiscated contraband.

[The Sun]

Well clearly it depends on how you defend yourself. If you respond by attacking the people who are attacking you, no problem. If you respond by attacking humanitarian aid workers, that's a different beast entirely.

Now, clearly I don't know exactly what happened here, but here are the facts as I understand them, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ships were boarded in international waters.
The soldiers who boarded one of those ships killed many of the people on board.
You keep claiming that they were armed only with paintball guns, so are we supposed to assume that IDF issue paintball guns are deadly weapons(which would make self-defense justified), or that the soldiers were actually carrying more deadly weapons(like pistols, which Israel claims the passengers stole from soldiers and used to fire at them).
Everything about this that I've heard points towards a particular interpretation of the events. Specifically, soldiers equipped with deadly weapons boarded ships in international waters, which they had no right to do, and the passengers defended themselves.

The weapons found aboard this "flotilla of hate" appear to be mostly kitchen knives, sticks and construction equipment. I spy with my little eye one knife that doesn't look particularly useful in cooking, but unless the IDF has started an embargo on cookware and construction tools, it looks to me like the IDF has a disgustingly high ratio of kills to confiscated contraband.

Are you some sort of a clown? the ships were commanded to stop JUST BEFORE the territorial water of Israel, and to dock at the port of Ashdod for a security check, as I have already written.

Instead, they decided to ignore the commands of an army (for fuck sake! who would you try to invade a country and be an outlaw?) when they just could dock and keep it safe.

And, most importantly, only 1 ship decided to fight. Guess 1 ship decided its cool to use the cover of the "PEACE FLOTILLA" and sneak in terrorists.


Served what they deserved.

[Terminater135]

Well clearly it depends on how you defend yourself. If you respond by attacking the people who are attacking you, no problem. If you respond by attacking humanitarian aid workers, that's a different beast entirely.

Now, clearly I don't know exactly what happened here, but here are the facts as I understand them, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ships were boarded in international waters.
The soldiers who boarded one of those ships killed many of the people on board.
You keep claiming that they were armed only with paintball guns, so are we supposed to assume that IDF issue paintball guns are deadly weapons(which would make self-defense justified), or that the soldiers were actually carrying more deadly weapons(like pistols, which Israel claims the passengers stole from soldiers and used to fire at them).
Everything about this that I've heard points towards a particular interpretation of the events. Specifically, soldiers equipped with deadly weapons boarded ships in international waters, which they had no right to do, and the passengers defended themselves.

The weapons found aboard this "flotilla of hate" appear to be mostly kitchen knives, sticks and construction equipment. I spy with my little eye one knife that doesn't look particularly useful in cooking, but unless the IDF has started an embargo on cookware and construction tools, it looks to me like the IDF has a disgustingly high ratio of kills to confiscated contraband.

The ships may have been in international waters (not sure about this either) BUT they intended to cross Israeli border in order to act against Israel.

The soldiers on the first wave were armed with pain-ball guns and a pistol for a "just in case", only one soldier used it and shot to the legs.
The soldiers in the first wave were armed with rifles but they used rubber bullets (probably wont kill you but hurts like a fuck).
You have to remember there was a lot of melee fighting including the use of cold weapons, its kinda unavoidable to have casulties.

The weapons have been knifes, clubs, chains, chairs, and even firearms. it is suspected that the passengers throw the firearms to the see but the soldiers found a rifle clip, they also said they were fired upon when they disembarked from the choppers in the first wave.

You have to remember that it was the Marmara passengers who started this violence, the other ships had no one hurt, it was an armed force vs. an armed force, and any causulties they suffered is entirly their fault.

[coldfire]

Hey Terminator,

I posted some specific numbered points that you are free to try and refute, but you can't, because they are all absolutely factually correct.

You have already posted 4 times on this thread, and have said nothing substantive.

Troll harder...

Or they may take you off the payroll...

Bowdirk

LOL at the lame trolling attempt.

http://skepacabra.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/epic-fail-7.jpg

[TrackJunkie]

@ Terminater and Sun: Fair enough. I wish there hadn't been any life lost on either side in the encounter, but clearly I don't know what happened.

[knkavo]

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.
Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

[coldfire]

As you may know, Israeli Military Terrorists attacked 6 unarmed boats full of Humanitarian aid in International waters Killing at least 9 and wounding dozens.

24 hours later and they won't even release the victims names. How petty is that?

Anyhow, some people are so blinded by the decades long Israeli propoganda that they will believe whatever BS story Israeli Sympathizers make up. But that won't change the fact that Israel:

1) Attacked civilian ships in International Waters (Piracy)
2) Killed and wounded dozens of people in the act of piracy (Murder)
3) took the ships to an Israeli port (Piracy and Theft)
4) Is holding 100's hostage for over 24 hours (Kidnapping)
5) Has created more terrorist talking points and recruitment, which harms US interests
and...
6) Will absolutely get away with it scott-free, due to the Israeli sympathizers in the US government and media

Discuss,
Bowdirk

Ok fucker, here is the story. The fucking terrorists were offered to come to the port in Ashdod, so we can check the supposedly humanitarian aid, and send it to the Gaza strip (this happened today, anyway). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

Naturally, the terrorists choose the most logical thing to do. They ignore and refuse to stop.

According to the law http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.
and
http://www.lawofwar.org/naval_warfare_publication_N-114M.htm



7.7.4 Breach and Attempted Breach of Blockade. Breach of blockade is the passage of a vessel or aircraft through a blockade without special entry or exit authorization from the blockading belligerent. Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade, and for vessels exiting the blockaded area, continues until the voyage is completed. Knowledge of the existence of the blockade is essential to the offenses of breach of blockade and attempted breach of blockade. Knowledge may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification provided to affected governments. It is immaterial that the vessel or aircraft is at the time of interception bound for neutral territory, if its ultimate destination is the blockaded area. There is a presumption of attempted breach of blockade where vessels or aircraft are bound for a neutral port or airfield serving as a point of transit to the blockaded area. Capture of such vessels is discussed in paragraph 7.10.
and



San Remo Manual -

(c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:

(ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;

48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they: (a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
(b) submit to identification and inspection when required; and
(c) do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required.

96. "The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements."

98. "Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked
the troops decide to take over the boats, in order to lead them to the port of Ashdod. They were equipped with "paintball" guns and real guns which were allowed to use only in extreme situations.


This is what happens when the first soldier goes down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

The terrorists even managed to steal two guns from the soldiers. The guns were founded with empty magazines, since your fucking friends shot all the bullets.

After the troops saw that they will be lynched if they do nothing about it, they got permission to use guns. After they took control over the boat, they were brought to the port of Ashdod, the humanitarian aid was sent to Gaza, and most of the retards are on their way home.

By the way, there is a reason I call them terrorists. They were proven to be such: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897667,00.html

Now, ask your self one question asshole. If the US navy were in this situation, would this end with only 10 killed?

[StrongIslander,NY]

we can point fingers all day. "is it illegal to fight back against people who kicked you off your land 60 years ago?"

give 'em more booze and casinos and they'll forget!

[Its_Me]

people need to understand that Israel helps Gaza
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=396434908860&ref=mf

[hatmanii]

give 'em more booze and casinos and they'll forget!

Fucking epic.

-Hat

[LondonTiger]

The Israeli soldiers did not get permission from the crew of the ship to board, and the ship was not required to do so and was acting in accordance with international law.

The Israeli's are blocakading humanitarian supplies to gaza, supplies such as basic medication to treat injured people who are still suffering from the bombardment from Israelis. And also food to feed the hungry people of gaza who are disallowed from fishing their seas, importing food from Egypt and have the fishing ships routinely bombarded reducing their capacity to fish anyway.

[LondonTiger]

people need to understand that Israel helps Gaza
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=396434908860&ref=mf

Another IDF troll, this is clearly propganda.. The video has no reference to dates, locations, and overall statistics of the situation is gaza.

[coldfire]

The Israeli soldiers did not get permission from the crew of the ship to board, and the ship was not required to do so and was acting in accordance with international law.

The Israeli's are blocakading humanitarian supplies to gaza, supplies such as basic medication to treat injured people who are still suffering from the bombardment from Israelis. And also food to feed the hungry people of gaza who are disallowed from fishing their seas, importing food from Egypt and have the fishing ships routinely bombarded reducing their capacity to fish anyway.

LondonDick, why don't you go away? Seriously, you make an idiot of yourself every time you post.

[LondonTiger]

I'm shocked at the lack of humaniy displayed by the Israeli, their bloodlust knows no bounds, they will not leave a defenceless people to be and continue to meddle and make their lives even worse than it is now.

You would have though that Israelis (jews) would have learnt a lesson on how NOT to treat people after world war two.

Sadly it looks like the Israelis (jews) have not learnt anything, and contine to terrorise innocent civilians further in their campaign for bloodlust.

The Israeli trolls on this website.. coldfire.. Terminater.. and the countless other posters who have nothing to say about strength training, and continue to open new accounts to spread the propaganda.. demonstrate the lengths ISrael will go to defend it's "credibility", and it's unwillingness to show a single iota of compassion or mercy on a people who aired maimed and outgunned.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"and was acting in accordance with international law. "

According to the posts above, the israelies where acting in accordance with international law. DO you have information to contradict this?

Arabs chanting "Jews remember Khaybar" while starting to crossing into Israeli waters are usually not the harbingers of peace.

There are crazies of religion. Right now the muslims are leading the pack and don't get much quarter from the west, which is opposed to alot of their teachings.

[Rob]

The Israeli soldiers did not get permission from the crew of the ship to board, and the ship was not required to do so and was acting in accordance with international law.

The Israeli's are blocakading humanitarian supplies to gaza, supplies such as basic medication to treat injured people who are still suffering from the bombardment from Israelis. And also food to feed the hungry people of gaza who are disallowed from fishing their seas, importing food from Egypt and have the fishing ships routinely bombarded reducing their capacity to fish anyway.

They didn't need permission

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce"

I don't understand how Israel is receiving the amount of flak that it already has, minimize the situation and make it hypothetical:

A pair of Police officers stopping a suspicious person in a vehicle, (In the UK a police officer can stop and search a vehicle without consent (and therefore without warrant) under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.) suspicious person refuses and attacks one of the officers, subdueing and disarming him/her. What do you think the other officer is going to do? Back off? He's going to put the suspicious person down in a heartbeat, whether by taser or 9mm. And it's ALL legal.

[LondonTiger]

Video shows Israelis using live ammunition as they approach ship in international waters, killing 2. They continue to shoot even after the ship runs up a white flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

Sorry if its already been posted, but I'm not going through 50 pages to find out.

[coldfire]

I'm shocked at the lack of humaniy displayed by the Israeli, their bloodlust knows no bounds, they will not leave a defenceless people to be and continue to meddle and make their lives even worse than it is now.

You would have though that Israelis (jews) would have learnt a lesson on how NOT to treat people after world war two.

Sadly it looks like the Israelis (jews) have not learnt anything, and contine to terrorise innocent civilians further in their campaign for bloodlust.

The Israeli trolls on this website.. coldfire.. Terminater.. and the countless other posters who have nothing to say about strength training, and continue to open new accounts to spread the propaganda.. demonstrate the lengths ISrael will go to defend it's "credibility", and it's unwillingness to show a single iota of compassion or mercy on a people who aired maimed and outgunned.

Touching post, really. What do you have to say about weight training? Rack pull perhaps? You are a weak fuck, so I wouldn't go there.

I think, by now, it's pretty clear who are the trolls here. Their names end with a Dick. BowDick and LondonDick, or should I say HamasDick?

[LondonTiger]

They didn't need permission

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ce"

I don't understand how Israel is receiving the amount of flak that it already has, minimize the situation and make it hypothetical:

A pair of Police officers stopping a suspicious person in a vehicle, (In the UK a police officer can stop and search a vehicle without consent (and therefore without warrant) under Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000.) suspicious person refuses and attacks one of the officers, subdueing and disarming him/her. What do you think the other officer is going to do? Back off? He's going to put the suspicious person down in a heartbeat, whether by taser or 9mm. And it's ALL legal.


IDF troll..

New member... signs in to defend israel

[Rob]

IDF troll..

New member... signs in to defend israel

I'm Canadian, dickcheese.

Anywho, are you going to add a rebuttal to anything ANYONE has said in response to your original post or just stay retarded?

[Wayne Riddle]

As you may know, Israeli Military Terrorists attacked 6 unarmed boats full of Humanitarian aid in International waters Killing at least 9 and wounding dozens.

They were Israeli defense Forces, not terrorists, the terrorists were the ones funding the boats (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/terror-finance-flotilla).

Israel was said they were going to take the ships to an Israel port, unload any humanitarian aid, and deliver it to Gaza via a land route. That isn't what the people on the boats wanted. So one group of them decided to raise a ruckus with clubs and knives, and Israel responded with fire, from paint guns. Only when one of the IDF was grabbed by a hostile did they respond with real fire.

And how many countries would allow any ships to enter an area where said country (two in this case), declared the area to closed to ships? Zero is your answer.

All I will say on the matter, just do a little research on your own.

[The Sun]

Video shows Israelis using live ammunition as they approach ship in international waters, killing 2. They continue to shoot even after the ship runs up a white flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

Sorry if its already been posted, but I'm not going through 50 pages to find out.
I don't see what you were claiming that he video shows. you're an idiot, congratulations.

[vkp78]

People who blame Israel are:
1.Evil
or 2. Stunningly stupid
or 3.Rarely justified
In this instance:For a moment take the asinine argument that Israel was wrong in enforcing a blockade:Is it conceivable that any "Peace activist" with half a brain would try to ram through a blockade by the murdering, pillaging, raping Israeli's? What crap, let "Humanitarian aid" pass through this time without verifying and next time let missiles pass through?
All that Israel wanted, was to check the ship in Ashdod before letting the aid pass through. If at all, it could be argued that Israel should have gone in with massive force to subdue all resistance before it flared to the point were lives were lost.Paintball guns and small arms???? Better to be criticized by the world for using overwhelming force rather than be accused of killing "peace loving blockade ramming activists"
One thing is clear, the vultures are circling around Israel and she needs our prayers.

[TrackJunkie]

A common argument is that the blockade is illegal to begin with, and so Israel shouldn't have any right to enforce their illegal blockade. In this case, the argument would then run that the ships, once in Ashdod, would not be allowed to finish delivering the humanitarian aid on board to Gaza, because Israel is content with letting in just enough aid to prevent an acute humanitarian crisis.

[vkp78]

A common argument is that the blockade is illegal to begin with, and so Israel shouldn't have any right to enforce their illegal blockade. In this case, the argument would then run that the ships, once in Ashdod, would not be allowed to finish delivering the humanitarian aid on board to Gaza, because Israel is content with letting in just enough aid to prevent an acute humanitarian crisis.

Your argument seems valid on paper, but think of this: do you think that any well fed, well housed, well schooled people(may not be expressing myself clearly but I hope that you get my drift) will be interested in guns, bombs, missiles and ramming blockades(yes I know that it was not the Palestinians on the ship)? Clearly it is not in Israel's interest in fomenting discontent and terror.
I suspect that there are many factors other than "Israel starves innocent Palestinians" at play here.

[Terminater135]

I'm shocked at the lack of humaniy displayed by the Israeli, their bloodlust knows no bounds, they will not leave a defenceless people to be and continue to meddle and make their lives even worse than it is now.

You would have though that Israelis (jews) would have learnt a lesson on how NOT to treat people after world war two.

Sadly it looks like the Israelis (jews) have not learnt anything, and contine to terrorise innocent civilians further in their campaign for bloodlust.

The Israeli trolls on this website.. coldfire.. Terminater.. and the countless other posters who have nothing to say about strength training, and continue to open new accounts to spread the propaganda.. demonstrate the lengths ISrael will go to defend it's "credibility", and it's unwillingness to show a single iota of compassion or mercy on a people who aired maimed and outgunned.

Listen I think there's a problem with your computer, I can read everybody else's masseges fine but when I try to read your massege all i see is this: "Blah blah blah I'm an anti-semitic fuck who think the jews want to rule the world and I blame them for me sucking at life".

You can all see what LondonTroll wrote in the previous thread:


The militant jews want to expand israel slowly into the former jewish empire stretching as far out from the nile to the river euphrates.

I can pretty much compare this mindset to the one which was widespread in germany during the 30's.

LondonTroll, you are fail incarnate.

[Terminater135]

Apperantly there were about 50 or more merceneries on the Marmara, payed to fight the soldiers and to rally everyone else to fight the soldiers too.
They were equiped with gas masks, night vision equipment , and kevlar vests.
I just heard this a few moments ago.

Looks like some of those people on this ship are not even "peace activists", but trained merceneries who are experts in the field of war.

[^pala]

Stop taking stuff seriously. Random people who are just bored are trolling your emotions. People are stupid, yet, not in such a level.
Everyone here have their rights to express their feeling and opinions in any way they desire as long as it does not hurt anyone. However, I don't give a flying fuck about their opinions.

[brianb]

http://www.cnas.org/files/u16/aDbBc0.png

[Terminater135]

http://www.cnas.org/files/u16/aDbBc0.png

Lol, you do have a point.
The safty of our soldiers was seriously neglected in this operation.

[abenn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjQcBTObGfc

He's got a good point...

[Moshe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUhOcTSD1I

[LeonidasfromSparta]

As you may know, Israeli Military Terrorists attacked 6 unarmed boats full of Humanitarian aid in International waters Killing at least 9 and wounding dozens.

24 hours later and they won't even release the victims names. How petty is that?

Anyhow, some people are so blinded by the decades long Israeli propoganda that they will believe whatever BS story Israeli Sympathizers make up. But that won't change the fact that Israel:

1) Attacked civilian ships in International Waters (Piracy)
2) Killed and wounded dozens of people in the act of piracy (Murder)
3) took the ships to an Israeli port (Piracy and Theft)
4) Is holding 100's hostage for over 24 hours (Kidnapping)
5) Has created more terrorist talking points and recruitment, which harms US interests
and...
6) Will absolutely get away with it scott-free, due to the Israeli sympathizers in the US government and media

Discuss,
Bowdirk
I didn't want to intervine in the previous discussion about Israel, but on this case I think that Israel really screwed up. You don't attack a pacifist boat like it was full of terrorist. If another country did that, there would be severe conseguencies.

[brianb]

Lol, you do have a point.
The safty of our soldiers was seriously neglected in this operation.

No shit.

Have you seen these vids? (may have already been posted on the thread)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Xm8Irz-so
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

I'm no soldier, but it looks like they were totally unprepared for the mauling the crew had planned for them.

[sergeant_81]

You don't attack a pacifist boat like it was full of terrorist. If another country did that, there would be severe conseguencies.

The boat wasn't attacked, and it wasn't pacifist in any sense of the term.

In regards to the second sentence, North Korea blatantly torpedoed a South Korean ship with 46 lives lost a couple weeks ago. There doesn't seem to be any international outrage concerning that incident.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

The boat wasn't attacked, and it wasn't pacifist in any sense of the term.

In regards to the second sentence, North Korea blatantly torpedoed a South Korean ship with 46 lives lost a couple weeks ago. There doesn't seem to be any international outrage concerning that incident.
What do you mean it wasn't attacked? Are we seeing and reading different things here? They dropped a armed marines on the boat, if that wasn't an attack, than I don't know what is...
In regards to the second sentence, what do you think this is:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/south.korea.sunken.ship/index.html ?

[sergeant_81]

Cripes, you anti-Israelite types just can't get your fucking facts straight. You all read as "ZoMG jewz r bad IDF fuk them kill them all nowzors!"

The ship(s) in question violated international law. The blockade is a cooperative effort by Israel and Egypt to keep arms trafficking at bay - and you can't deny that arms were being smuggled to extremist militants in droves. Any humanitarian aid is escorted in and distributed, and is not denied entry. The aid that didn't include knives, clubs, bats, etc. on these ships was brought in and distributed as per usual.

The ships were ordered to stop, and they failed to do so. They were boarded by members of the IDF who were armed with paintball guns and one firearm each. Upon fast-roping to the deck, they were immediately attacked by an armed mob - no pacifists in sight. As they were beaten and thrown about, they exercised extreme restraint and did not retaliate with deadly force. At some point, two firearms were taken from the soldiers and were turned on them. Even then, they radioed in for permission to defend themselves before doing so.

Israel is not the most innocent nation in the world, but stop pretending that anti-Israelites and anti-Semites are an angelic bunch.

[Vadjio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjQcBTObGfc

He's got a good point...

personally i think he's an idiot. the roman empire invented the name "palaestina", originating from the ancient name philistia. palaestina, commonly known as syria palaestina, as the roman empire considered it a part of syria, meaning there was never a nation named palestine, and no people called palestinians. until the arab refugees of the early israeli wars conveniently declared themselves palestinians and proclaimed the israeli land as their own. fast forward to 50-60 years later and you got idiots from all over the globe bitching and whining "poor palestinians, bad israelis" shamelessly involving holocaust references. if israel wanted to kill the palestinians they'd all be dead in a matter of hours, no one would ever bother spending that much time and money on building a fence. the only purpose of that fence is to help minimize the acts of terrorism coming from your beloved peace loving palestinians. the video above is by far the most tremendous load of horse shit that i've seen in a really long time.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

Cripes, you anti-Israelite types just can't get your fucking facts straight. You all read as "ZoMG jewz r bad IDF fuk them kill them all nowzors!"

The ship(s) in question violated international law. The blockade is a cooperative effort by Israel and Egypt to keep arms trafficking at bay - and you can't deny that arms were being smuggled to extremist militants in droves. Any humanitarian aid is escorted in and distributed, and is not denied entry. The aid that didn't include knives, clubs, bats, etc. on these ships was brought in and distributed as per usual.

The ships were ordered to stop, and they failed to do so. They were boarded by members of the IDF who were armed with paintball guns and one firearm each. Upon fast-roping to the deck, they were immediately attacked by an armed mob - no pacifists in sight. As they were beaten and thrown about, they exercised extreme restraint and did not retaliate with deadly force. At some point, two firearms were taken from the soldiers and were turned on them. Even then, they radioed in for permission to defend themselves before doing so.

Israel is not the most innocent nation in the world, but stop pretending that anti-Israelites and anti-Semites are an angelic bunch.
Hey fuck you man. Now I can't have my own fucking opinion about things, if that is against Israel? Who the fuck do you people think you are? Shit, you made me lose my nerve. Think what you wanna think.

[Vadjio]

Hey fuck you man. Now I can't have my own fucking opinion about things, if that is against Israel? Who the fuck do you people think you are? Shit, you made me lose my nerve. Think what you wanna think.

oh no problem, you can have your opinion, but here's mine:

i think you are an imbecile just like the thread opener & co, not because your opinion is against israel, but because judging on your replies to this thread, your ability to derive conclusions from the various sources of information presented earlier in this thread is equivalent to that of an inbred kitten.

[ColoWayno]

Someone wise once said "A lie makes it half way around the world before the truth has its pants on"

Maybe all should chill and collect data for a while.

[Vadjio]

Someone wise once said "A lie makes it half way around the world before the truth has it's pants on"

Maybe all should chill and collect data for a while.

scroll through this thread, i think that all the available (don't think there will be more) data was brought up and discussed.

[Terminater135]

I didn't want to intervine in the previous discussion about Israel, but on this case I think that Israel really screwed up. You don't attack a pacifist boat like it was full of terrorist. If another country did that, there would be severe conseguencies.

There were NO pacifits on that ship, these people could be considered terrorists, hell they even had merceneries on that boat.

[ColoWayno]

scroll through this thread, i think that all the available (don't think there will be more) data was brought up and discussed.

I've read it, just thought I'd try to cool people off a little bit... every party has a party pooper, that's why I was invited.

[Terminater135]

No shit.

Have you seen these vids? (may have already been posted on the thread)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Xm8Irz-so
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

I'm no soldier, but it looks like they were totally unprepared for the mauling the crew had planned for them.

Exactly, we tried to be too nice and came charging in with paint-ball guns.
There is a lot of criticism here about the way this operation was handled, we have a soldier seriously injured from this lynch.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

oh no problem, you can have your opinion, but here's mine:

i think you are an imbecile just like the thread opener & co, not because your opinion is against israel, but because judging on your replies to this thread, your ability to derive conclusions from the various sources of information presented earlier in this thread is equivalent to that of an inbred kitten.
Yeah, fuck you too.

[Vadjio]

Yeah, fuck you too.

haha, thank you for clarifying my point.

[Rorschach]

The blockade is a cooperative effort by Israel and Egypt to keep arms trafficking at bay - and you can't deny that arms were being smuggled to extremist militants in droves. Any humanitarian aid is escorted in and distributed, and is not denied entry. The aid that didn't include knives, clubs, bats, etc. on these ships was brought in and distributed as per usual.

I certainly can deny that arms were being smuggled in.
Are we looking at the same photos here? I see screwdrivers, pieces of wood, hammers, wrenches, kitchen knives and one dagger. I see worse on a friday night out.
Surely as ex-military, you don't count these as arms? Do you see any guns? Any explosives?
Yes, they can be used as make-shift weapons in a fight, but claiming that these aid ships were smuggling in weapons is downright fictitious.

I agree that some of the people on this ship responded aggressively, which was stupid and counter-productive, but the Israeli military acted poorly too, resulting in multiple dead civilians, and the loss of a close ally, Turkey. That's not an admirable outcome in anyone's books.
I'm not condoning the actions of the aggressors on the boat, but the military knew tensions would be running high, and their actions exacerbated the problem. You can't justify it after the event by claiming the boat was full of terrorists and arms smugglers, as some one-sided media sources are.

[sergeant_81]

I'm not claiming that these ships in particular had any weapons or arms onboard besides the makeshift ones already described. My argument was that the blockade was put in place to block arms smuggling overall, which has occurred and was occuring prior to the blockade.

In the end, two firearms were taken from the soldiers and were fired at them. What were they supposed to do? We can armchair quarterback this thing to death - and I will readily admit I'm guilty of that here - but there's not a lot of time to discuss in committee what to do when you're being fired upon.

[leftyland]

I certainly can deny that arms were being smuggled in.
Are we looking at the same photos here? I see screwdrivers, pieces of wood, hammers, wrenches, kitchen knives and one dagger. I see worse on a friday night out.
Surely as ex-military, you don't count these as arms? Do you see any guns? Any explosives?
Yes, they can be used as make-shift weapons in a fight, but claiming that these aid ships were smuggling in weapons is downright fictitious.

I agree that some of the people on this ship responded aggressively, which was stupid and counter-productive, but the Israeli military acted poorly too, resulting in multiple dead civilians, and the loss of a close ally, Turkey. That's not an admirable outcome in anyone's books.
I'm not condoning the actions of the aggressors on the boat, but the military knew tensions would be running high, and their actions exacerbated the problem. You can't justify it after the event by claiming the boat was full of terrorists and arms smugglers, as some one-sided media sources are.

Excuse me, but carrying kitchen knives and daggers to a "humanitarian aid cruise" disqualifies them from being "pacifists".

[coldfire]

Hey fuck you man. Now I can't have my own fucking opinion about things, if that is against Israel? Who the fuck do you people think you are? Shit, you made me lose my nerve. Think what you wanna think.

You can have your opinion, fuckhead, but not about facts. Would you like to express your opinion about the shape of earth, maybe?

[Terminater135]

I certainly can deny that arms were being smuggled in.
Are we looking at the same photos here? I see screwdrivers, pieces of wood, hammers, wrenches, kitchen knives and one dagger. I see worse on a friday night out.
Surely as ex-military, you don't count these as arms? Do you see any guns? Any explosives?
Yes, they can be used as make-shift weapons in a fight, but claiming that these aid ships were smuggling in weapons is downright fictitious.

I agree that some of the people on this ship responded aggressively, which was stupid and counter-productive, but the Israeli military acted poorly too, resulting in multiple dead civilians, and the loss of a close ally, Turkey. That's not an admirable outcome in anyone's books.
I'm not condoning the actions of the aggressors on the boat, but the military knew tensions would be running high, and their actions exacerbated the problem. You can't justify it after the event by claiming the boat was full of terrorists and arms smugglers, as some one-sided media sources are.

Actually makeshift weapons are considered dangerous enough for the use of firearms to be jusified.
The life loss is somthing pretty unavoidable with the level of violence that was on the Marmara, and you have to remember who started it.
Also, when the first soldiers came down the passengers stole their pistols and fire randomly at the soldiers direction, it is suspected that they accidently hit and killed some of the other passengers.

You need to remember that there were no pacifists on board, about 40-50 of the passengers were mercenaries who are affilated with Al-Qaeda.
And for the rest of the passengers, i'll let this video speak for itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded

As for the matter of Turkey, with friends like them you dont need enemies.

[LeonidasfromSparta]

You can have your opinion, fuckhead, but not about facts. Would you like to express your opinion about the shape of earth, maybe?
Whose facts shithead, your facts? So if you say that they had a nuclear bomb in that damn boat, is it a fact? Anyway I don't know why I keep responding to you. Fuck this shit, do what you wanna do, my words don't change anything.

[coldfire]

Whose facts shithead, your facts? So if you say that they had a nuclear bomb in that damn boat, is it a fact? Anyway I don't know why I keep responding to you. Fuck this shit, do what you wanna do, my words don't change anything.

Maybe you should read the whole thread before you lose your mind.

[Rorschach]

Excuse me, but carrying kitchen knives and daggers to a "humanitarian aid cruise" disqualifies them from being "pacifists".

Not at all. It's a ship. With a kitchen. Kitchens generally have kitchen knives. All the items shown apart from arguably one knife have legitimate uses. They are definitely not arms being smuggled.

Attacking soldiers disqualifies them from being pacifists. Having kitchen knives in a kitchen does not.
Not to mention I wasn't arguing about whether or not they were pacifists, but whether or not they were terrorists and arm-smugglers. There's a big difference between the two.

[Rorschach]

My argument was that the blockade was put in place to block arms smuggling overall, which has occurred and was occuring prior to the blockade.

Ah, I see what you meant. No problem.

[coldfire]

Not at all. It's a ship. With a kitchen. Kitchens generally have kitchen knives. All the items shown apart from arguably one knife have legitimate uses. They are definitely not arms being smuggled.

Attacking soldiers disqualifies them from being pacifists. Having kitchen knives in a kitchen does not.
Not to mention I wasn't arguing about whether or not they were pacifists, but whether or not they were terrorists and arm-smugglers. There's a big difference between the two.

LOL. Typical kitchen:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs302.snc3/28711_1209590300414_1848437874_399220_6457028_n.jp g
This is the kitchen chef, I guess.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs572.snc3/31224_128498143842598_100000472395437_286188_69181 1_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs573.snc3/31279_405031054892_632609892_4018039_5647687_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs503.ash1/29778_435270876141_574591141_6155277_7891029_n.jpg




And yes, some of them actually were terrorists.

[Terminater135]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I&feature=player_embedded

A bunch of assholes protest against Israel as usual, but then a brave guy in an IDF shirt comes holding the Israeli flag above him infront of all those terrorist supporters.

In the end there's a funny interview with two dumb Plestinian supporters, a girl and a guy:
Girl says: "We want a jewish state and a palestinian state to live together, There should not be an israeli state, an israeli state doenst even exist, it started in 1948 after winston churchill signed it in 1950" (WTF?).

Later on guy gets interviewed and says: "Israel is doing this because they got kicked out from germany or whatever happend there, and they are trying to take the anger on somone else".
Lol, ignorance at its best.

Its very funny actually to see americans support the muslims so much, after they bombed the twin towers and currently kill their soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Terminater135]

Not at all. It's a ship. With a kitchen. Kitchens generally have kitchen knives. All the items shown apart from arguably one knife have legitimate uses. They are definitely not arms being smuggled.

Attacking soldiers disqualifies them from being pacifists. Having kitchen knives in a kitchen does not.
Not to mention I wasn't arguing about whether or not they were pacifists, but whether or not they were terrorists and arm-smugglers. There's a big difference between the two.

Knifes? are they cooking elephants on this ship?

And there were Al-Qaeda affilated mercenaries on this ship, AKA terrorists.

[Rorschach]

Actually makeshift weapons are considered dangerous enough for the use of firearms to be jusified.

Not my argument. I'm arguing that having knives in the kitchen does not equal arms smuggling.


The life loss is somthing pretty unavoidable with the level of violence that was on the Marmara, and you have to remember who started it.
Maybe, maybe not. I completely agree it was a hostile situation, but I still believe it was dealt with poorly.


Also, when the first soldiers came down the passengers stole their pistols and fire randomly at the soldiers direction, it is suspected that they accidently hit and killed some of the other passengers.
Quite possibly. Purely speculative though.


You need to remember that there were no pacifists on board, about 40-50 of the passengers were mercenaries who are affilated with Al-Qaeda.
And for the rest of the passengers, i'll let this video speak for itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded
You're assuming there were no pacifists on board because of a couple of videos of some people saying hostile things. That's a very simplistic view of things that makes it easier to justify the use of deadly force.
Mercenaries is a poor choice of word that invokes an incorrect image of the passengers, and many of the claimed links with al-qaeda are highly suspect.
I'll agree that some of the passengers had no place on an aid ship, but to claim that all of them are jew-hating terrorists is disingenious.


As for the matter of Turkey, with friends like them you dont need enemies.
Turkey and Israel have done good work together. Once again, you're presuming all Turks are the same as those shouting anti-israel slogans and talking about martydom.
We're back to the mentality of anyone who criticises you is automatically your enemy.

[Rorschach]

Its very funny actually to see americans support the muslims so much, after they bombed the twin towers and currently kill their soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now I remember why I stopped trying to argue about this.
WTF does Islam have to do with being a terrorist or a member of Al-Qaeda? The Turks bombed the Twin Towers, did they?

You quite clearly equate being a muslim with being a terrorist. You sir, are a racist fool, and no amount of reason is going to change your opinion.
Once again, I'm out.

[Dastardly]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs503.ash1/29778_435270876141_574591141_6155277_7891029_n.jpg






All but one knife there looks suspicious. The big knife could just be a normal traditional knife, I know that some asian traditional kitchen knives would scare some people. (I for one have bigger knives than that in my home kitchen) The rest are normal kitchen knives and a couple small pocket knives (which you would expect people to have when working on a ship).

If this was a ship full of texans there would be two automatic weapons per person on that ship.

[pwn]

I love people like that Israeli guy marching in front of the Palestinians. Good for him. I didn't watch the whole thing, I found the screaching women too much.
The propaganda of the knives being evidence of smuggled weapons is bullshit, however.


You quite clearly equate being a muslim with being a terrorist. You sir, are a racist fool
Holy Shit not this again! Muslim is not a race, therefore one cannot be racist if you dislike all Muslims. I agree that it's foolish to equate all Muslims with terrorism, but it's not racism. I will concede that Islam has gone to great lengths to reject Western values and will continue to push back, often violently. It must be admited that Islam has the historical precedent and religious justification for terrorism, though.

[brianb]

Apparently the group that funded the flotilla is quite happy with the outcome.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02activists.html


On Tuesday in a bustling neighborhood in Istanbul, the Turkish organization was celebrating a strange success. “We became famous,” said Omar Faruk, a board member of the group, Insani Yardim Vakfi, known by its Turkish initials, I.H.H. “We are very thankful to the Israeli authorities.”


Now that's fucked up.

[coldfire]

Right Dastardly. It is also common, to disobey the law, and not follow the army's orders. And then, to lynch the soldiers that come on board. Happens everyday.

But hey, anything the puts your Islamic friends as the bad guys is biased and highly speculative, but everything that makes Israel the bad guys is probably true.

No terrorists at all: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898109,00.html

PEACE AND LOVE, bro!

[Dastardly]

And yes, some of them actually were terrorists.

Define Terrorist (http://american-genocide.netfirms.com/html/americanstateterrorism/zionazis/SatanicSharon.html).

[Dastardly]

Right Dastardly. It is also common, to disobey the law, and not follow the army's orders. And then, to lynch the soldiers that come on board. Happens everyday.

But hey, anything the puts your Islamic friends as the bad guys is biased and highly speculative, but everything that makes Israel the bad guys is probably true.

No terrorists at all: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898109,00.html

PEACE AND LOVE, bro!

I made no comments about any of that, why are you bringing it up?

I dont know enough about this event/people to go around arguing about it. I was just commenting regarding the picture of knives that supposedly proved that they were terrorists. Which it doesnt.

Why are you calling these people my friends? I dont know them, I never said I did. You sound like a IDF/Guantanamo bay interrogator.

Oh, and regards to you article.

Has it not always been part of popular nationalist culture, like in american war films, that becoming a martyr was a really good thing?

The idea of Martyrdom or engaging in a Holy war to ensure ones place in heaven is actually a product of the crusades.

Madrasa's (the islamic schools which have are often a camps of anti-west/martyrdom doctrine) were also a product of British Colonialism.

Just saying...

[Rorschach]

Holy Shit not this again! Muslim is not a race, therefore one cannot be racist if you dislike all Muslims.

You're arguing semantics. Fine, Term is a bigoted, prejudiced fuck instead of a racist. There's no practical difference.

[coldfire]

Define Terrorist (http://american-genocide.netfirms.com/html/americanstateterrorism/zionazis/SatanicSharon.html).

Thanks for proving everyone you are complete retard.

[ColoWayno]

You're arguing semantics. Fine, Term is a bigoted, prejudiced fuck instead of a racist. There's no practical difference.

Are you racist if you dislike Radical Islamists?
Just asking.

[Supraspinatus]

To whoever judges Israel negaditvely, try living a couple of months in Sderot and you'll see how wrong you are. Our military does everything it can to protect its citizens, not more and not less and most of the victims from the other side died from their god damn fault, all of them were wanrned but they didn't listen which gives us the right to do whatever we think is right to protect ourselves. Most of you are people who are living their quiet life, going to the gym 3-5 times a week and sleeping 8 hours a night, but right here in Israel we are constantly under missile attacks and war threats. So just shut the hell up because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Rorschach]

Are you racist if you dislike Radical Islamists?
Just asking.

Dislike people for their actions, not their beliefs.
I save my dislike for individuals, not an entire group, as you don't know the entire group. Making a generalisation like "I dislike all radical Islamists" is prejudiced. Disliking, say, the pressurising of women to wear a hijab covering their face in public, is not.

[gzt]

To whoever judges Palestinians negatively, try hanging out with them, too.

[coldfire]

Yeah, I dislike all terrorists and people who want me dead. I am a prejudiced. I can live with that.

[Rorschach]

So just shut the hell up because you have no idea what you are talking about.

And you don't know me, so just shut the hell up because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your argument can be turned against you quite easily. Try living in the Gaza strip as a Palestinian. Until then, you can't comment on the situation.

See how ridiculous it is?

[Rorschach]

Yeah, I dislike all terrorists and people who want me dead. I am a prejudiced. I can live with that.

All muslims want you dead? Don't be ridiculous.

[coldfire]

All muslims want you dead? Don't be ridiculous.

I didn't say all Muslims. But all radical Muslims do. They are a group, and I hate them as a group. Oh no!

[coldfire]

And you don't know me, so just shut the hell up because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your argument can be turned against you quite easily. Try living in the Gaza strip as a Palestinian. Until then, you can't comment on the situation.

See how ridiculous it is?

Yes, it is ridiculous to live in Gaza -- an area controlled by Terror organization called Hamas. Why would anyone do that? hmm :confused:

[Supraspinatus]

And you don't know me, so just shut the hell up because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Your argument can be turned against you quite easily. Try living in the Gaza strip as a Palestinian. Until then, you can't comment on the situation.

See how ridiculous it is?
Oh, really? Have you been living in Gaza? Have you been living there for long? Do you know how is it living there? It seems that most of the anti Israelis are brainwashed by the network, I'm pretty sure there is no one here from Gaza to confirm the "crimes" of the Israeli military force.

[pwn]

You're arguing semantics. Fine, Term is a bigoted, prejudiced fuck instead of a racist. There's no practical difference.
Bigot: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own
Racist: The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

There is a practical difference. But you're right in that there are a few bigots on this board.

[bowdirk]

All of the people, luggage, and cargo on the ships were X-rayed by the Turks to ensure that there were no weapons brought aboard the ships.

Here is a Roster of the people who were on board the ship, please give me the name of the terrorists on the list: http://www.freegaza.org/en/boat-trips/passenger-lists/75-ninth-trip-to-gaza-in-may-2010/1178-usa

The Humanitarian aid is exactly what it was stated to be. If there was a single pellet gun on any of the ships, you can bet the Israelis would be showing it as proof that it was a gun-smuggling operation.

The blockade of Gaza is illegal, breaking an illegal blockade is not a crime.

But... the boats were still 50+ miles from the blockade line, clearly in International waters. Attacking a boat on the high seas is an act of Piracy, the people on the boat are completely justified, in fact compelled, to resist to their fullest capacity.

All the name calling and ranting by the Israeli propagandists and naive Israel sympathizers do not change the fact that Israeli Military Pirates/Terrorists boarded a ship full of Humanitarian activists on the high seas and murdered them.

US support of Israel does the US no good, and in fact, plays directly into the Propoganda of Al-Queada.

If your loyalty is to the US, you, like me, pray for the day the US and Israel part ways.

-Bowdirk

[coldfire]

All of the people, luggage, and cargo on the ships were X-rayed by the Turks to ensure that there were no weapons brought aboard the ships.

Here is a Roster of the people who were on board the ship, please give me the name of the terrorists on the list: http://www.freegaza.org/en/boat-trips/passenger-lists/75-ninth-trip-to-gaza-in-may-2010/1178-usa

The Humanitarian aid is exactly what it was stated to be. If there was a single pellet gun on any of the ships, you can bet the Israelis would be showing it as proof that it was a gun-smuggling operation.

The blockade of Gaza is illegal, breaking an illegal blockade is not a crime.

But... the boats were still 50+ miles from the blockade line, clearly in International waters. Attacking a boat on the high seas is an act of Piracy, the people on the boat are completely justified, in fact compelled, to resist to their fullest capacity.

All the name calling and ranting by the Israeli propagandists and naive Israel sympathizers do not change the fact that Israeli Military Pirates/Terrorsits boarded a ship full of Humanitarian activists on the high seas and murdered them.

US support of Israel does the US no good, and in fact, plays directly into the Propoganda of Al-Queada.

If your loyalty is to the US, you, like me, pray for the day the US and Israel part ways.

-Bowdirk

http://blog.infinitemonkeysblog.com/files/images/obvious_troll.preview.jpg

[pwn]

Noam Chomsky shreds Israeli journalist in 20 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCtYecGbQz8)

[Terminater135]

All of the people, luggage, and cargo on the ships were X-rayed by the Turks to ensure that there were no weapons brought aboard the ships.

Here is a Roster of the people who were on board the ship, please give me the name of the terrorists on the list: http://www.freegaza.org/en/boat-trips/passenger-lists/75-ninth-trip-to-gaza-in-may-2010/1178-usa

The Humanitarian aid is exactly what it was stated to be. If there was a single pellet gun on any of the ships, you can bet the Israelis would be showing it as proof that it was a gun-smuggling operation.

The blockade of Gaza is illegal, breaking an illegal blockade is not a crime.

But... the boats were still 50+ miles from the blockade line, clearly in International waters. Attacking a boat on the high seas is an act of Piracy, the people on the boat are completely justified, in fact compelled, to resist to their fullest capacity.

All the name calling and ranting by the Israeli propagandists and naive Israel sympathizers do not change the fact that Israeli Military Pirates/Terrorists boarded a ship full of Humanitarian activists on the high seas and murdered them.

US support of Israel does the US no good, and in fact, plays directly into the Propoganda of Al-Queada.

If your loyalty is to the US, you, like me, pray for the day the US and Israel part ways.

-Bowdirk

You fail.

[sergeant_81]

All the name calling and ranting by the Israeli propagandists and naive Israel sympathizers do not change the fact that Israeli Military Pirates/Terrorists boarded a ship full of Humanitarian activists on the high seas and murdered them.

US support of Israel does the US no good, and in fact, plays directly into the Propoganda of Al-Queada.

If your loyalty is to the US, you, like me, pray for the day the US and Israel part ways.


The only one spouting propoganda is you. Most here on both sides of the issue are interpreting the facts as they see them. Your rhetoric is inflammatory, deliberately misleading, and sounds uncannily like the common drivel you get from Al Qaeda heads.

And my support for Israel does not determine or undermine my loyalty to the United States. Neither do you.

[Terminater135]

Noam Chomsky shreds Israeli journalist in 20 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCtYecGbQz8)

Noam Chomsky is an extrimist, anarchist, whackjob who likes to make trouble wherever its possible.
He should be in a mental institution.

[Terminater135]

Just saw on the news a while ago a video filmed on the Marmara when our soldiers tried to climb it from the sea by boats.
To stop our soldiers, the passengers threw a small box at them, tried to hit them with chains and clubs, and they also throw a FUCKING STUN GRENADE AT THEM.

So much for not smuggling any weapons on board isn't it?

[Rorschach]

Oh, really? Have you been living in Gaza? Have you been living there for long? Do you know how is it living there? It seems that most of the anti Israelis are brainwashed by the network, I'm pretty sure there is no one here from Gaza to confirm the "crimes" of the Israeli military force.

No, I haven't, and neither have you? I'm not telling you to shut up because you haven't lived in Gaza, I'm parodying your claim that only Israelis are authorised to comment on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I have experience of terrorism, less than some, but claiming that I cannot comment on the conflict because I don't live in one part of it is something I don't accept.

We've covered the issue of the media already. The likelihood of a small number of media sources funded/run by the Israeli government being completely objective and all the others up to and including the UN are all biased and anti-semetic is negligible.

[pwn]

Noam Chomsky is an extrimist, anarchist, whackjob who likes to make trouble wherever its possible.
He should be in a mental institution.
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0608/pot_kettle_black.jpg

And to whoever said that Jihad came from the Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Origins

[coldfire]

No, I haven't, and neither have you? I'm not telling you to shut up because you haven't lived in Gaza, I'm parodying your claim that only Israelis are authorised to comment on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I have experience of terrorism, less than some, but claiming that I cannot comment on the conflict because I don't live in one part of it is something I don't accept.

We've covered the issue of the media already. The likelihood of a small number of media sources funded/run by the Israeli government being completely objective and all the others up to and including the UN are all biased and anti-semetic is negligible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk

[Rorschach]

I don't really get the relevance or point of that video.
I'd try arguing against the dubious conspiracy claims that guy makes, but it doesn't have any bearing on my point.
Someone fires a gun at an area that you don't know whether or not contain Israeli soldiers. Erm, so?
A shot from across the street doesn't show bloodstains from what appears to be a gunshot wound. Erm, so?
What's he trying to claim, that there wasn't a firefight? There clearly was, the claim that some of the shots were staged is irrelevant. If you were claiming that a shot of an Israeli soldier beating a child were faked, I could see the relevance, but a couple of shots showing a firefight? Huh?

Anyway, while this doesn't prove any bias, even if it did, so what? There are biased sources on both sides of the conflict, and in more neutral areas. No argument there. I do argue with the claims that all sources in any way critical of the actions of some Israelis are biased.

[Terminater135]

No, I haven't, and neither have you? I'm not telling you to shut up because you haven't lived in Gaza, I'm parodying your claim that only Israelis are authorised to comment on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I have experience of terrorism, less than some, but claiming that I cannot comment on the conflict because I don't live in one part of it is something I don't accept.

We've covered the issue of the media already. The likelihood of a small number of media sources funded/run by the Israeli government being completely objective and all the others up to and including the UN are all biased and anti-semetic is negligible.

It doenst matter where you live, it matters that you completly ignore the facts presented to you.

But what does it matter when you'r such a good human being with no prejudice at all like all those group hating bigots right?

When a large part of the world wants you dead we'll see what you think about hating a whole group.
But I must be making generalizations right? Its not possible that most muslims want Israel destroyed isn't it?

[Rorschach]

I'm not going to reply to your posts, Term, so there's litle point in replying to mine.

[gzt]

I think the state of Israel should not have been created. I can certainly empathise with the displaced persons who do not want it to continue existing and their allies. I don't think that's a viable or desirable option. Neither the state of Israel nor the people displaced from their rightful land by Israel are going to disappear, and that's the ground we all have to work from.

[StrongIslander,NY]

CNN just reported that scum bag named Lyle was sending a boat over there, the boats name was FU Rip 2.0 and it was loaded with angry Arizona mexican illegals and Homo californicators that cant get a marriage bill. suppossedly they were bent on bringing 1980's designer clothes to the palestinians and see if the character ronald mcdonald could broker a peace deal in gaza. it seems they are arguing on not getting authentic NY pizza and NY bagels.


just my slant on the whole thing.

[Unpossible]

Bagels? BAGELS? Another Zionist plot to torpedo the peace talks, of course.

[Terminater135]

I think the state of Israel should not have been created. I can certainly empathise with the displaced persons who do not want it to continue existing and their allies. I don't think that's a viable or desirable option. Neither the state of Israel nor the people displaced from their rightful land by Israel are going to disappear, and that's the ground we all have to work from.

Did not do research.

[gzt]

Did not make an argument.

[Dastardly]

And to whoever said that Jihad came from the Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Origins

If your talking about me, I never said Jihad.

I meant strongly preaching about and implanting the idea into people how terrible hell was and then telling them that if they went all they marched all the way to foreign lands to face death in the name of the lord, that all their sins would be forgiven and they would go to heaven.

Hell only began to be described vividly in europe during this time, purely as a tool to control people through fear and make them do stuff.

The crusade was a massive success for the christian europeans and has been a lesson to successive generations of leaders.

Fear unites a society and makes them easier to control and do/accept irrational things.

[Dastardly]

http://artintifada.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/neturei_karta2ds.jpg
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/20100530/1-IMG_0089.jpg

[Terminater135]

Did not make an argument.

Almost all of the areas inside the Israeli border during the creation of the state were occupied by jews, then the arabs living in their territory decided to attack us, we won and took their territory in war, completly legitimate.
Also, their fault, their problem.

[Terminater135]

http://artintifada.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/neturei_karta2ds.jpg
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/20100530/1-IMG_0089.jpg

Your point?

[coldfire]

I don't really get the relevance or point of that video.
I'd try arguing against the dubious conspiracy claims that guy makes, but it doesn't have any bearing on my point.
Someone fires a gun at an area that you don't know whether or not contain Israeli soldiers. Erm, so?
A shot from across the street doesn't show bloodstains from what appears to be a gunshot wound. Erm, so?
What's he trying to claim, that there wasn't a firefight? There clearly was, the claim that some of the shots were staged is irrelevant. If you were claiming that a shot of an Israeli soldier beating a child were faked, I could see the relevance, but a couple of shots showing a firefight? Huh?

Anyway, while this doesn't prove any bias, even if it did, so what? There are biased sources on both sides of the conflict, and in more neutral areas. No argument there. I do argue with the claims that all sources in any way critical of the actions of some Israelis are biased.

So it doesn't matter that some sources are biased as long as they make us the bad guys, but when the other side looks bad, then our media is biased.

I guess so are you, and see little point in trying to convince you in anything.

By the way, this is how most of you, "unbiased" Europeans look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUhOcTSD1I

[Sami]

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

[gzt]

Almost all of the areas inside the Israeli border during the creation of the state were occupied by jews, then the arabs living in their territory decided to attack us, we won and took their territory in war, completly legitimate.
Also, their fault, their problem.
That's a bit reductionist. And I'm the shallow one? Your state should not have been created in the first place.

[coldfire]

That's a bit reductionist. And I'm the shallow one? Your state should not have been created in the first place.

What do you mean should or should not? Who are you to decide on that? Go sound your complaints to the UN.

[gzt]

I am gzt.

If it makes you feel better, I feel much the same way about America.

[Terminater135]

That's a bit reductionist. And I'm the shallow one? Your state should not have been created in the first place.

Why shouldnt it?

[travelgirl1978]

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.


Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.


Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

Both parties are fuck ups, that have fucked up, repeatedly. I'm fairly sure this thread is going to get fucked up too, if it hasn't already.

[coldfire]

I am gzt.

If it makes you feel better, I feel much the same way about America.

No, that just makes you sound silly.

[gzt]

There are a lot of problems with the idea of Zionism (and European intervention in middle eastern affairs (why the hell did Britain even think it had the right to consider something like the Peel Commission's recommendations?)) and with the practicalities, as evidenced by the 60 years of terrible fallout from its fruition. But the big thing is that you can't say, "Okay, we're the government, we're the state, let's call it Israel," when you're not the entire country (or even half the population), nor can you have an external power telling people to partition themselves like the UN tried to do, especially when the group doing so is a bunch of newcomers to the land.

[gzt]

No, that just makes you sound silly.
How so? It's not terribly cooky to think the American Revolution was wrong.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"American Revolution was wrong."

Do tell

[leftyland]

There are a lot of problems with the idea of Zionism (and European intervention in middle eastern affairs (why the hell did Britain even think it had the right to consider something like the Peel Commission's recommendations?)) and with the practicalities, as evidenced by the 60 years of terrible fallout from its fruition. But the big thing is that you can't say, "Okay, we're the government, we're the state, let's call it Israel," when you're not the entire country (or even half the population), nor can you have an external power telling people to partition themselves like the UN tried to do, especially when the group doing so is a bunch of newcomers to the land.

Dear gzt,
First, read this please: http://www.think-israel.org/mandelbaum.html
It's just an article for all of us to know the basic facts.

Now, after you've read it: please explain what rights do the "Palestinians" have on our land that we don't?

[gzt]

The short answer is that I don't think they had sufficient cause for rebellion. A substantial proportion of the population seems to have agreed with me.

[LondonTiger]

Noam Chomsky shreds Israeli journalist in 20 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCtYecGbQz8)

Interesting video, interesting how the woman always retorts Israels's crimes with .. oh well at least we're not as bad as xyz.

Israel is a regional power, hamas is a cowboy government. They two cannot be compared.

When she loses her arguments and Chomsky destroy's her argument, she changes tactic and starts playing the victim, trying to blame Chomsky as being biased against ISrael.

Saw a interesting documentry easrlier http://www.channel4.com/programmes/defamation

Shows how Israeli's are so brainwashed.. Israeli's worst enemy is themselves, they constantly bombared with the idea that the world hates jews and that they need to defend themselves at all times..

It's very interesting how Israeli kids are indoctrinated, and the general attitude amogst Israeli's who go through this proces seems to be that they're seeking vengance for ww2, and they'll take it out on anyone.

One thing I understood from the Chomsky and the lecture posted earlier is that the Israeli's own propaganda and actions against it's poor neighbours is turning them evil..

No other government in the world would deny aid being sent to their enemy, no matter how "evil" they like to make them out to be. [Gathering the kitchen knives together, putting them on top of a saudi flag, and photographing them together and make them out to look like "terrorists".

Such vile, and nasty piece of work... From the one and only.. Israel

During WW2, even the Nazi's wouldn't stoop to this level, The Luftwaffe allowed the sailors from bombed british ships to get on a dingy and have a chance at surviing.. Would you ever see this sort of compassion from the Israeli's..?

For all thier talk of the holocaust, it's clear they haven't learnt anything from their past.

[bowdirk]

Dear gzt,
First, read this please: http://www.think-israel.org/mandelbaum.html
It's just an article for all of us to know the basic facts.

LOL, that site is basically a mirror image of an Al-Quada or Stormfront site...

Completely full of shit, telling idiots the lies they want to hear to support their racist beliefs.

troll harder...

-bowdirk

[Rorschach]

So it doesn't matter that some sources are biased as long as they make us the bad guys, but when the other side looks bad, then our media is biased.
Christ, this is like banging my head against a wall.

No, it is not "okay", where did I say it was? I haven't even commented on the news reports from outside Israel, yet you're automatically assuming I'm taking them at face value. Everything needs to be critically assessed.
You are the one making blanket statements about one "side"'s media, not me.
You are the one calling all critics anti-semites.
You are the one saying this conflict is all one-sided.
I am not.


By the way, this is how most of you, "unbiased" Europeans look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUhOcTSD1I

Yes, I'm well aware of how you view the rest of the world.
For the record, I agree with a lot of what the first gentleman says. That doesn't stop me from finding many Israeli actions to be unacceptable.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

GZT,

Which country are you from? Luckily, not very many people have thought that since, I"m not a huge fan of whats going on in england at the moment and I"m not a big fan of the Canadian speech board

London Tiger

Comparing german soliders treatment of the british is in no way anagalous to current affairs.

1 THe british were uniformed members of an army. Both sides treated uniformed and covert operative differently.

2 The british extended the same courtesy to the Germans.

3 It was a markedly different set of goals. The Allies wanted Germany to stop doing what they were doing. The Palestinias want Israel gone.



I really think this whole thing could be solved in about 2 months using the "Captian Kirk" method.

A US diplomat or governmental leader goes to the arabs, hamas, israelis and who ever else is involved and says "You have two months to normalize relationships. No more fighting, terrorism, etc. You don't have to get along but the violence will end. If not, you'll be fighting over radio active glass"

[gzt]

I stopped reading very quickly because I don't really care at all about the ideology he's poking at (for instance, I don't give a whit about the Muslim population or even the Arab population per se, I am actually most interested in the indigenous Christian population because they are mostly Orthodox Christians like me, but that is neither here nor there), nor are his facts about the population quite accurate.

[Rorschach]

During WW2, even the Nazi's wouldn't stoop to this level, The Luftwaffe allowed the sailors from bombed british ships to get on a dingy and have a chance at surviing.. Would you ever see this sort of compassion from the Israeli's..?

Huh? The Israeli government didn't blow up the ship and gun the survivors down. I'm not seeing the comparison.

[Terminater135]

There are a lot of problems with the idea of Zionism (and European intervention in middle eastern affairs (why the hell did Britain even think it had the right to consider something like the Peel Commission's recommendations?)) and with the practicalities, as evidenced by the 60 years of terrible fallout from its fruition. But the big thing is that you can't say, "Okay, we're the government, we're the state, let's call it Israel," when you're not the entire country (or even half the population), nor can you have an external power telling people to partition themselves like the UN tried to do, especially when the group doing so is a bunch of newcomers to the land.

We came to Israel and setteled in mostly barren areas (most of israel was unpopulated), any area we took from the arabs was in combat, and is thus legit.

[LondonTiger]

Huh? The Israeli government didn't blow up the ship and gun the survivors down. I'm not seeing the comparison.

Ok the comparison doesn't work so well, I'm just showing he inhumanity, the seige of a refugee town, levelling infrasture, and enying aid to reach the palestinians..

[coldfire]

Christ, this is like banging my head against a wall.

No, it is not "okay", where did I say it was? I haven't even commented on the news reports from outside Israel, yet you're automatically assuming I'm taking them at face value. Everything needs to be critically assessed.
You are the one making blanket statements about one "side"'s media, not me.
You are the one calling all critics anti-semites.
You are the one saying this conflict is all one-sided.
I am not.



I never said any of those things. You are confused.

[Terminater135]

Interesting video, interesting how the woman always retorts Israels's crimes with .. oh well at least we're not as bad as xyz.

Israel is a regional power, hamas is a cowboy government. They two cannot be compared.

When she loses her arguments and Chomsky destroy's her argument, she changes tactic and starts playing the victim, trying to blame Chomsky as being biased against ISrael.

Saw a interesting documentry easrlier http://www.channel4.com/programmes/defamation

Shows how Israeli's are so brainwashed.. Israeli's worst enemy is themselves, they constantly bombared with the idea that the world hates jews and that they need to defend themselves at all times..

It's very interesting how Israeli kids are indoctrinated, and the general attitude amogst Israeli's who go through this proces seems to be that they're seeking vengance for ww2, and they'll take it out on anyone.

One thing I understood from the Chomsky and the lecture posted earlier is that the Israeli's own propaganda and actions against it's poor neighbours is turning them evil..

No other government in the world would deny aid being sent to their enemy, no matter how "evil" they like to make them out to be. [Gathering the kitchen knives together, putting them on top of a saudi flag, and photographing them together and make them out to look like "terrorists".

Such vile, and nasty piece of work... From the one and only.. Israel

During WW2, even the Nazi's wouldn't stoop to this level, The Luftwaffe allowed the sailors from bombed british ships to get on a dingy and have a chance at surviing.. Would you ever see this sort of compassion from the Israeli's..?

For all thier talk of the holocaust, it's clear they haven't learnt anything from their past.

LondonFailTroll, from your previous posts its very easy to compare YOU to the nazis.

[coldfire]

Ok the comparison doesn't work so well, I'm just showing he inhumanity, the seige of a refugee town, levelling infrasture, and enying aid to reach the palestinians..

The only thing you are showing is that you are an extremely dumb fucker.
Israel sends 10 times that aid they were bringing with them EACH WEEK.

[Terminater135]

LOL, that site is basically a mirror image of an Al-Quada or Stormfront site...

Completely full of shit, telling idiots the lies they want to hear to support their racist beliefs.

troll harder...

-bowdirk

You are acting like you are working for Al-Qaeda.

Fail harder...

[gzt]

I am, in fact, in America, and quite happily. My ancestors, though, fled the country because they were Loyalists. Things have changed a lot in the last 200 years for the better (America got rid of slavery, for instance) or for the worse (America got rid of most of the indigenous population, for instance), but just because I don't think it was right to start something (ie, America or Israel) doesn't mean I want it to cease existing or don't appreciate the good things it has to offer. The entire world is a tragedy we live with and it's silly to think we can turn back the clock or fix things.

Amazingly, even after the Bush years, I do agree that it's better here than England or Canada, from my American pro-freedom (and not just for white men anymore) etc perspective.

[gzt]

We came to Israel and setteled in mostly barren areas (most of israel was unpopulated), any area we took from the arabs was in combat, and is thus legit.
See, I don't agree that taking land in combat makes it legit to have taken it. This is a bunch of very complicated stuff.

[coldfire]

See, I don't agree that taking land in combat makes it legit to have taken it. This is a bunch of very complicated stuff.

Are you serious? Most of the land in the world was taken in combat.

[Terminater135]

Ok the comparison doesn't work so well, I'm just showing he inhumanity, the seige of a refugee town, levelling infrasture, and enying aid to reach the palestinians..

You know what LondonPussycat? there's another flotilla coming in from europe soon, why wont you come aboard?

You fuckhead.

[coldfire]

By the way, here is another video of the the Peace activists at their best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded

And by the way, Hamas refused to receive the humanitarian aid. I wonder...

[gzt]

What I mean is that the mere act of taking it in combat doesn't mean you should keep it. Otherwise there'd be no Germany today. When it causes 700,000 people to be displaced, things get complicated. What's your opinion of the whole Kosovo thing?

[bowdirk]

You are acting like you are working for Al-Qaeda.

Isreali action CREATES Terrorists and FEEDS Al-Quada propoganda efforts.

It is YOU who is furthering Al-Quada's aims.

Seriously, can't you see that?


-Bowdirk

[coldfire]

What I mean is that the mere act of taking it in combat doesn't mean you should keep it. Otherwise there'd be no Germany today. When it causes 700,000 people to be displaced, things get complicated. What's your opinion of the whole Kosovo thing?

And if there would be no Germany today, would it be wrong? You are arguing with history. What happens if everyone will agree that American Revolution was "wrong"? Will it change anything?

[Terminater135]

Isreali action CREATES Terrorists and FEEDS Al-Quada propoganda efforts.

It is YOU who is furthering Al-Quada's aims.

Seriously, can't you see that?


-Bowdirk

Lol you troll, on one hand your stupidity makes me laugh, on the other hand its sad that there are people as dumb as you.

Now tell me, mister bowdick, how exactly do we create Al-Qaeda terrorists?

[Rorschach]

I never said any of those things. You are confused.

Well ok, I'm not trawling through two threads of bile to prove that point.

Instead, will you accept that
a) at least some of Israeli's news sources are pro-government/anti-palestinian biased
b) part of the blame for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lies with Israel
c) being critical of the actions of a group in a country does not mean you hate the country itself and all of its occupants.

If so, then no problem, I'll retract that comment.



And if there would be no Germany today, would it be wrong?
Ask the Germans, I think I can guess their answer, and I'd probably agree.

[gzt]

Depends on what they did with the Germans.

If everybody agreed that the American Revolution was wrong, well, that's 200 years ago. You can't really do anything about it. If everybody agreed that the creation of the state of Israel was wrong, well, that was 60 years ago, you can't undo it. Like I said in my original post. But it probably would make a more reasonable base for action.

[coldfire]

Well ok, I'm not trawling through two threads of bile to prove that point.

Instead, will you accept that
a) at least some of Israeli's news sources are pro-government/anti-palestinian biased
b) part of the blame for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lies with Israel
c) being critical of the actions of a group in a country does not mean you hate the country itself and all of its occupants.

If so, then no problem, I'll retract that comment.


a) I don't know, maybe some of the internet sources. Actually the media here is pretty biased against the government, whenever they can. But pretty much every media is biased towards anything that will make their news interesting to watch.
b) Definitely.
c) Agree.

[Rorschach]

a) I don't know, maybe some of the internet sources. Actually the media here is pretty biased against the government, whenever they can. But pretty much every media is biased towards anything that will make their news interesting to watch.
b) Definitely.
c) Agree.

Fair enough.
I still disagree with you on some things (such as muslims being inherently "terroristy"), but you're less close-minded than some. ;)

[leftyland]

See, I don't agree that taking land in combat makes it legit to have taken it. This is a bunch of very complicated stuff.

OK, you see, we haven't taken the land by force; we fought for our lives in 1948 (and many years before), won the war that 5 Arab countries waged upon us.
Back in 1947, The UN general assembly recognized our right for independence and the right to establish a Jewish country, alongside an Arab country. Was it enough for the Arabs? No.
So, what we've got here is 5 Arab countries and and the "Palestinian" mob working against the UN resolution, and we are the ones to blame? Well, what's new...

[coldfire]

Fair enough.
I still disagree with you on some things (such as muslims being inherently "terroristy"), but you're less close-minded than some. ;)

I didn't say that either, though I do think it is not far from being the truth. Time will tell.

Thanks.

[bowdirk]

Terminator, you have yet to post a bit of useful information anywhere on this whole thread.

Your purpose seems to be nothing other than to blindly (and ineffectivley) spew forth Israeli propoganda.

As you are unable to have a conversation, I am done responding to you.

-bowdirk

[coldfire]

Terminator, you have yet to post a bit of useful information anywhere on this whole thread.


http://pwoodford.net/hashblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/pot_kettle.jpg

[Rorschach]

I didn't say that either, though I do think it is not far from being the truth. Time will tell.

Thanks.

OK, thought that's how I read "I just hope England's Muslim population will rise fast enough to fuck them up in the near future, so we can see how you love your terrorists.".

[gzt]

OK, you see, we haven't taken the land by force; we fought for our lives in 1948 (and many years before), won the war that 5 Arab countries waged upon us.
Back in 1947, The UN general assembly recognized our right for independence and the right to establish a Jewish country, alongside an Arab country. Was it enough for the Arabs? No.
So, what we've got here is 5 Arab countries and and the "Palestinian" mob working against the UN resolution, and we are the ones to blame? Well, what's new...Both sides are to blame. It is a fairly complicated situation.

[coldfire]

OK, thought that's how I read "I just hope England's Muslim population will rise fast enough to fuck them up in the near future, so we can see how you love your terrorists.".

It doesn't mean that all of them will become terrorists, but part of them probably will.

[Rorschach]

It doesn't mean that all of them will become terrorists, but part of them probably will.

You can say that about any religion. There have been plenty of Christian/Jewish/Atheist etc terrorists.
Can't think of any Buddhist ones though, at least. :P

[coldfire]

You can say that about any religion. There have been plenty of Christian/Jewish/Atheist etc terrorists.
Can't think of any Buddhist ones though, at least. :P

True. But so far Islam takes the lead.

[leftyland]

Both sides are to blame. It is a fairly complicated situation.

So when in regards to the Arabs, it's "fairly complicated", and when in regards to the Jews/Israelis, it's plain and simple?
Sure, mistakes have been made (and are still being made) by us, but we are fighting here for our existence. It's war, simple as that.
I think you haven't realized that (or refuse to), but Hamas uses terror against its on people as well as against Israel and Israelis. The double standards that other countries have in this matter just drives me nuts. Whenever Israel defends its citizens, it's blamed for acts of terror, but when Hamas slaughtered Fatah, the world stood silent. You can read about it here (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/world/middleeast/16gaza.html) and here (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/world/middleeast/21mideast.html). And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[gzt]

No, with respect to the Jews, it's also complicated.

You're fighting for your existence, but so are they.

And I'm definitely no fan of Hamas.

[leftyland]

No, with respect to the Jews, it's also complicated.

You're fighting for your existence, but so are they.

And I'm definitely no fan of Hamas.

No, they (Hamas/Fatah/other Arab countries and Iran ) just want to destroy us and to establish radical Muslim regime here and in the entire world. No Arab country really cares about the Palestinians. For example, Hussein, the late king of Jordan, used force to enforce peace in the (Jordanian) occupied territories and in Jordan, which later led to the establishment of Black September Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_%28group%29), another Palestinian terror organization.
BTW, did they try to revenge Jordan? No. They decided to take hostage (and later murder) 11 innocent Israelis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre).

[run]

the flotilla weren't fighting for anything,the IDF told them to give us the stuff on the ship and that israel will send the stuff to gaza.
in the end israel did send the things to gaza(ecxept medicine that there date expired).
if you weren't taking about the flotilla then my bad(i am not sure about who you were taikung about).

[Seth Able]

No, with respect to the Jews, it's also complicated.

You're fighting for your existence, but so are they.



Not quite. The Palestinian/Arab side isn't fighting for its existence, its fighting against co-existence with Israel. There isn't and there never was any sort of existential threat to them, while on the other side in each war since 1948 (with the possible exception of 1973, and that only due to lack of ability, not lack of motivation) the Arab's declared goal with to finish of Hitler's job. Today the trend is to deny the holocaust and praise was took place in the same sentence, but they are not shy about declaring their goals.

This is from the Hamas charter (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp):



"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."




I suggest you read the whole document, to get a better idea of who Israel is dealing with. Hamas is a clerical fascist party and those words aren't mere rhetoric - those delusional fanatics believe and mean what they say.

[bowdirk]

None of the History or Spin on History that people are bringing up change the fundamental facts:

Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control.

All the blah blah blah by israeli sympathizers and propogandists don't change those basic facts.

-bowdirk

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control."

If they were just bringing aid, why didn't they redirect to the port to be searched for illegal arms and other contraband. Why did they attack the non lethaly arm IDF soliders?

As far as living conditions, how would you treat people that desire to wipe you people off the planet?

[run]

None of the History or Spin on History that people are bringing up change the fundamental facts:

Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control.

All the blah blah blah by israeli sympathizers and propogandists don't change those basic facts.

-bowdirk

dam your stupid
look,we check every thing that is on his way to gaza,and the we take it to gaza(we took what was on the ships and sended it to gaza).
there was no slaughter,the soldiers go off the heli with paint ball guns and pistols for emergency,and when the soldiers go on the boat they got linched,and the ''pasifists'' on the boat took a couple of pistols and shot.
you are a fucking troll and you are stupid.

[Seth Able]

for instance, I don't give a whit about the Muslim population or even the Arab population per se, I am actually most interested in the indigenous Christian population because they are mostly Orthodox Christians like me, but that is neither here nor there).

To be frank, that's a pretty disgusting point of view, not caring about anybody other than your coreligionists. Still, you may wish to further your knowledge bank with regard to Hamas by reading up a bit about how Christians fare under its rule.

Anybody who cares just a bit about the Israelis and Palestinians ever reaching some sort of agreement that would allow peaceful coexistence and the sort of religious freedom available in the west should be very much for anything that weakens the Hamas regime.

[Magister]

None of the History or Spin on History that people are bringing up change the fundamental facts:

Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control.

All the blah blah blah by israeli sympathizers and propogandists don't change those basic facts.

-bowdirk

Yay, I just joined the forum and encountered a genius! Your chewed up arguments have been repeatedly refuted throughout this thread. Your sentence should be rewritten as "Israel killed terrorists hiding on a ship, who were simply trying to kill as many Israeli soldiers as possible, and who definitely don't give a rat's ass about anything other than screwing the 72 virgins they'll receive in heaven as a reward (or punishment)".
It's better to say "I lost" than to act like a complete Idiot. But hey, it's in your nature.

[Seth Able]

None of the History or Spin on History that people are bringing up change the fundamental facts:

Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control.

All the blah blah blah by israeli sympathizers and propogandists don't change those basic facts.

-bowdirk

I may have joined the dicussion a bit late, but reading your previous posts its pretty easy to see you're a pretty deranged person with serious issues against the Jews.

Would you like to share the reasons behind your frothing at the mouth? Hard childhood? Mommy didn't love you enough?

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

While I disagree with with bowdirk's point of view, ad hominem attacks do no one any good. And if you are going to do it, at least make it creative.

And someone many posts ago said something like "It isn't right to dislike someone based on their views or opinions". I say that statement is patently false.

Example; I hosted a fair number of dinner parties while working for this one employer. One fellow that came was devote muslim. WHen he came over, his wife was always beside him and slightly behind and she didn't really talk. I asked her if she was feeling alright; I have a medicine chest stalked to gills and figured something would allieve what ever was ailing her. Instead of a response from him, I got a response from him. He explained how his wife didn't talk to strange men (And I"m pretty strange). I further questioned him on this and it came out he believed women were subservient to men. I then asked if he meant his wife and other like her who, being responsible adults, have made this decision on their own or if he meant all women? He said all women are subservient to men and that was the problem with the US and most western countries.

Now, my mom was C level executive, my ex girlfriends have included physicist, professors, rugby players and a few business owners, so that attitude doesn't sit well with me. I told him that due to his beliefs, he was no longer welcome in my home and should leave immedaitely. He argued and it didn't end well for him.

THere comes a point where you draw a line in the sand and say no more, this is not accetable. His views crossed my line. I don't know if all muslims share this view or not. But all the ones who do can go to hell. Also the ones that don't believe in free speech (the south park episode threats, the killed director and the mohammed catoons) and freedom of religion (persecution of other religions in their lands) can fuck off as well, you are not welcome here.

[run]

Yay, I just joined the forum and encountered a genius! Your chewed up arguments have been repeatedly refuted throughout this thread. Your sentence should be rewritten as "Israel killed terrorists hiding on a ship, who were simply trying to kill as many Israeli soldiers as possible, and who definitely don't give a rat's ass about anything other than screwing the 72 virgins they'll receive in heaven as a reward (or punishment)".
It's better to say "I lost" than to act like a complete Idiot. But hey, it's in your nature.

now that's the spirit
dickhead(bow) learn from him

[run]

While I disagree with with bowdirk's point of view, ad hominem attacks do know one any good. And if you are going to do it, at least make it creative.

i didn't understend you fan you refraise or explain pliz
thank you

[Magister]

While I disagree with with bowdirk's point of view, ad hominem attacks do know one any good. And if you are going to do it, at least make it creative.

Sure they are. Ad hominem attacks strive to show that the Homo in question is an imbecile person who can't present a single logical argumentation and who falls back to syllogisms and to points he raises only because he knows they are controversial. Therefore, an ad hominem attack is the way to show that one shouldn't take this person and his arguments seriously.

[Seth Able]

While I disagree with with bowdirk's point of view, ad hominem attacks do know one any good. And if you are going to do it, at least make it creative.

No point in wasting any creativity on racist assholes :D

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

THe creativeness is not for the imbecille, though I haven't seen cause to think this, but for the other readers. and ad hominem attacks used do not demonstrate this. They are simply play yard insults that have no truth to them (other than random luck, which I doubt) and in no way show a reduction in his abilities to form a logical statement.

DOes israel do some unsavory things in regards to palenstine? Yes

Does the Hamas, which is back by palenstine, do some unsavory things to Israel? Yes

Is the argument "he did it, so I can do it back to him" valid? ONly if you are 5.

And would people stop thinking in terms of good guys or bad guys? Also try this; read any article in the news about training. THen realize that same level of misinformation is present in this news article as well.

[Rorschach]

Yay, I just joined the forum and encountered a genius!

There seems to be a remarkable number of people joining these forums recently purely to attack people whose opinions they disagree with.
It's a free country, and all that jazz, but it seems pretty silly to me.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Run,

THe ad hominem attacks (attack against the man, not the argument) don't change the substance or validity of his viewpoint. Even though it's viewpoint I don't share

[coldfire]

There seems to be a remarkable number of people joining these forums recently purely to attack people whose opinions they disagree with.
It's a free country, and all that jazz, but it seems pretty silly to me.

Most of them are members here for a long time, they just don't post usually. I see only 2 new members.

[Rorschach]

Most of them are members here for a long time, they just don't post usually. I see only 2 new members.

Most of who? :P
I'm not refering to old members, clearly. ;)

[TheSean]

Supporting freedom in the world = Supporting Israel.


Learn to think in fundamentals, and do not commit the error of context dropping.


That 'aid' ship was told not to pass the Israeli/ Egyptian blockade as a matter of law and that food would be passed on to Palestine by the IDF (as they usually do)


They knew they would be attacked for doing so, they wanted publicity and they were ready for the conflict. The IDF recovered a friggin weapons cache onboard! The IDF soldiers boarded with PAINTBALL GUNS but with half the soldiers carrying a pistol for backup.

Would you let a ship giving supplies to the officially recognised 'terror state' that wants you dead just pass through your waters?


Israel LEGALLY defended herself too. Here is proof :-

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/notes/sascha-settegast/did-israel-actually-break-international-law/402395547489

[Dastardly]

Your point?

My point was that people like you jump forward and label anyone who makes any comment regarding anything about Israel, as a blindly pro-hamas/hezbollah person who wants to destroy all jews.

I made a small comment about the knives not looking like a "terrorists arsenal" and suddenly I am an anti-semite who is good friends with terrorist groups.


I just wanted to show that many devout & educated Jews are not so supportive of the state of Israel, rather strongly critical. I myself displayed no opinion on the matter, and Im not going to, because there is no point.

[bowdirk]

Most of them are members here for a long time, they just don't post usually. I see only 2 new members.

I guess the Israeli sympathizers and propogandists are feeling that their message needs to be amplified louder on the theory that more times they tell a lie, the more chance it has of being believed.

So they brought in some reinforcements...

http://www.infowars.com/that-commenter-on-your-blog-may-actually-be-working-for-the-israeli-government/

And on another topic...

The ad-hominem attacks and name calling directed my way is a sign of their failure to be able present a logical argument or refute the facts:

Israel attacked 6 ships in International waters that were carrying Humanitarian aid to some desperatly oppressed people, and in doing so killed 9 civilians and wounded dozens of others.

-Bowdirk

[Rorschach]

Supporting freedom in the world = Supporting Israel.
That's a pretty ridiculous over-simplification.
So if I'm critical of Israel in any way, that means I hate freedom? I probably hate kittens too.

Seeing things in black-and-white, in fundamentals is what caused this problem in the first place. Us and them, goodies and baddies, etc.

What weapons cache did they find, exactly? Those pieces of wood, hammers, screw-drivers, and kitchen knives? Not much use in overthrowing a country.
Yes, the boarding was legal, subject to interpretation, but don't try to justify it by claiming they were arms smugglers.

[Dastardly]

Would you let a ship giving supplies to the officially recognised 'terror state' that wants you dead just pass through your waters?


Hasnt it been stated, like a bazillion times that the Ship was in International waters, and that the Israeli-imposed blockade was illegal too?

(I havent confirmed this myself, please correct me if im wrong)

[Rorschach]

Hasnt it been stated, like a bazillion times that the Ship was in International waters, and that the Israeli-imposed blockade was illegal too?

(I havent confirmed this myself, please correct me if im wrong)

They should have waited until the ship wasn't in international waters, and thus was actively breaching the blockade before boarding. That would have avoided any room for debate on points of law, and given critics less ammunition.

The blockade being legal depends on whether nor not Israel and Palestine are actually at war, which is arguable.

[Vadjio]

i'm tired of reading this thread so i'll just state my opinion, israel had every legal right to attack that ship. anyone who read through this entire thread and still thinks otherwise is an idiot and should eat shit and die.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

YUou know, this "it's my way or the high way" shit on a matter this complex is more telling of the person stating it than their opposition.

Vadjio

FUck you and your presumption that your opinion on facts distorted by both sides is the only valid one.

[Vadjio]

YUou know, this "it's my way or the high way" shit on a matter this complex is more telling of the person stating it than their opposition.

Vadjio

FUck you and your presumption that your opinion on facts distorted by both sides is the only valid one.

facts and international laws are rather simple, the only complexity here is explaining such simplicities to imbeciles such as yourself. eat shit and die.

[Rorschach]

Ok, I'll bite, and argue devil's advocate.

"67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade"

At the point the ship was boarded, it was in neutral territory. It was heading towards Gaza, but it had not breached the blockade, it was not in the act of breaching, no breach had occured. Thus, people can justify arguing it was illegal.

In law enforcement, it's a lot easier to prosecute someone for commiting an act than for planning to commit an act. Obviously it's often not practical to wait until the act has been commited until arrest, for example with murder. However, I don't see any reason for the Israeli navy not to have followed them until they entered Israeli waters, and then boarded them. It sticks to the letter of the law, and avoids these criticisms.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"facts and international laws are rather simple, the only complexity here is explaining such simplicities to imbeciles such as yourself. eat shit and die. "

Internet tough guy. 7 posts and only one of them is only sort of training related.

Also your reading comphrension is pretty crappy.

From this thread

"THe ad hominem attacks (attack against the man, not the argument) don't change the substance or validity of his viewpoint. Even though it's viewpoint I don't share " THe viewpoint not shared by me was pro palenstine.



""Israel slaughtered civilians in International waters who were simply trying to bring humanitarian aid to people who are living in horrible conditions under Israeli control."

If they were just bringing aid, why didn't they redirect to the port to be searched for illegal arms and other contraband. Why did they attack the non lethaly arm IDF soliders?

As far as living conditions, how would you treat people that desire to wipe you people off the planet? "



""and was acting in accordance with international law. "

According to the posts above, the israelies where acting in accordance with international law. DO you have information to contradict this?

Arabs chanting "Jews remember Khaybar" while starting to crossing into Israeli waters are usually not the harbingers of peace.

There are crazies of religion. Right now the muslims are leading the pack and don't get much quarter from the west, which is opposed to alot of their teachings. "

SO instead of supporting your argument in any reasonable, logical, legal or other way, you choose to resort to simple insults.

THat and your squat is high.

[gzt]

Interesting article: http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100531_flotillas_and_wars_public_opinion?utm_sou rce=GWeekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=100531&utm_content=readmore&elq=ec0dbb5abd264ff39b3645c5d73e93b4



Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary/20100525_potential_turkish_israeli_crisis_and_its_ international_implications?fn=9413472227). That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation’s planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.And...


Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel’s increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.And...


The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.
Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States — by far the most important in the equation — might shift to a “plague-on-both-your-houses” position.Anyway. I work right by the Israeli consulate in town, there was a protest there yesterday. I used to work in the same building, but that got annoying.

[abenn]

personally i think he's an idiot. the roman empire invented the name "palaestina", originating from the ancient name philistia. palaestina, commonly known as syria palaestina, as the roman empire considered it a part of syria, meaning there was never a nation named palestine, and no people called palestinians. until the arab refugees of the early israeli wars conveniently declared themselves palestinians and proclaimed the israeli land as their own. fast forward to 50-60 years later and you got idiots from all over the globe bitching and whining "poor palestinians, bad israelis" shamelessly involving holocaust references. if israel wanted to kill the palestinians they'd all be dead in a matter of hours, no one would ever bother spending that much time and money on building a fence. the only purpose of that fence is to help minimize the acts of terrorism coming from your beloved peace loving palestinians. the video above is by far the most tremendous load of horse shit that i've seen in a really long time.

Were you listening to the dude's story, Donny? The major point here is that Judaism and Israel are NOT the same thing. The dude in that video is Jewish. He does not support Israel. I posted that link solely as a response to the people who insist on equating Israel with Jewish identity. I don't think that Ellis is "shamelessly involving holocaust references," considering he's dedicated his life to studying Jewish theology in relation to the Holocaust and subsequent events.

[abenn]

I'm too lazy to read all through the 15 pages that got posted tonight, but the argument over "international law" made me laugh...you guys do realize that Palestine is considered an occupied territory by the UN, right? Doesn't that sort of monkey wrench most the arguments here?

[knkavo]

I'm too lazy to read all through the 15 pages that got posted tonight, but the argument over "international law" made me laugh...you guys do realize that Palestine is considered an occupied territory by the UN, right? Doesn't that sort of monkey wrench most the arguments here?

The point is that all sorts of UN resolutions have been passed down condemning both sides. Both sides are very quick to refer to the resolutions that suit them, and totally ignore those that don't.

So international law has fuck all to do with this whole disgusting situation. Both sides to whatever the fuck they please, and innocent people pay the price.

(And if anyone says there are no innocents, on one or both sides, then you deserve to have someone board your boat and shoot you, or have someone fire a rocket into your garden).

[abenn]

The point is that all sorts of UN resolutions have been passed down condemning both sides. Both sides are very quick to refer to the resolutions that suit them, and totally ignore those that don't.

So international law has fuck all to do with this whole disgusting situation. Both sides to whatever the fuck they please, and innocent people pay the price.

(And if anyone says there are no innocents, on one or both sides, then you deserve to have someone board your boat and shoot you, or have someone fire a rocket into your garden).


I agree. I just think it's funny how one sided people are getting about the international law thing, hence my post.

[Rorschach]

The boat wasn't boarded in Palestine though.

[Rorschach]

@gzt
That's pretty much my point.
Wanting to check for arms onboard was a legitimate concern that I can accept; the boats were checked by foreign port officials, but I would want to check myself too. It turns out there were no arms being smuggled, but it was still a legitimate concern.

However, Israel must have known the world would be watching their actions very closely, so they should have played it by the book.
Instead, they used strong-arm tactics prematurely, technically breaking international law, getting civilians killed, and weakening international relationships with many countries.
Now, you can wave your dick around, shouting that Israel has every right to defend itself, and that's true. They went about it poorly though, and this wasn't a good result.

[Vadjio]

SO instead of supporting your argument in any reasonable, logical, legal or other way, you choose to resort to simple insults.

THat and your squat is high.

again the thing is, that if you read carefully you'll see there's no need for me to support my argument as it's already been proven to be correct. the only supposedly valid pro-marmara arguments involve partial quotes of the international law regarding the matter, the ones who posted it neglected the part which makes their argument invalid, looks like selective thinking to me.

as for the ones who claim the blockade is illegal:


In September 2007, citing an intensification of Qassam rocket attacks, Israel declared Gaza "hostile territory." The declaration allowed Israel to prevent the transfer of electricity, fuel, and other supplies into Gaza. The stated purpose of the blockade was to pressure Hamas into ending the rocket attacks and to deprive them of the supplies necessary for the continuation of rocket attacks. It argued that following the takeover of Gaza by Hamas and the intensification of Qassam rocket attacks, it is not legally responsible for Gaza and not obliged to help a hostile territory beyond whatever is necessary to avoid a humanitarian crisis.

my reading comprehension is absolutely fine.



@gzt
That's pretty much my point.
Wanting to check for arms onboard was a legitimate concern that I can accept; the boats were checked by foreign port officials, but I would want to check myself too. It turns out there were no arms being smuggled, but it was still a legitimate concern.

However, Israel must have known the world would be watching their actions very closely, so they should have played it by the book.
Instead, they used strong-arm tactics prematurely, technically breaking international law, getting civilians killed, and weakening international relationships with many countries.
Now, you can wave your dick around, shouting that Israel has every right to defend itself, and that's true. They went about it poorly though, and this wasn't a good result.

israel did not break any international law, every action israel took is legit according to it. your claim proves that you either did not read the law, or only took the slice that justifies your claim via selective thinking.

[coldfire]

@gzt
That's pretty much my point.
Wanting to check for arms onboard was a legitimate concern that I can accept; the boats were checked by foreign port officials, but I would want to check myself too. It turns out there were no arms being smuggled, but it was still a legitimate concern.

However, Israel must have known the world would be watching their actions very closely, so they should have played it by the book.
Instead, they used strong-arm tactics prematurely, technically breaking international law, getting civilians killed, and weakening international relationships with many countries.
Now, you can wave your dick around, shouting that Israel has every right to defend itself, and that's true. They went about it poorly though, and this wasn't a good result.

They did not break international law, but everything else is correct. They were not prepared for this type of hostility, and they fucked up.
The issue is that any other country would not be criticized at the same level, for the same fuckup.

[Dastardly]

The issue is that any other country would not be criticized at the same level, for the same fuckup.

The issue is that any other country would (and should) be criticised more for such a fuck up, especially in addition to successive similar fuck ups, and especially when those fuck ups are being funded by somebody else.

[Vadjio]

The issue is that any other country would (and should) be criticised more for such a fuck up, especially in addition to successive similar fuck ups, and especially when those fuck ups are being funded by somebody else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obUhOcTSD1I

the "fuck ups" presented by the person who speaks in the video involved way more casualties, and have not received half the criticism. you are naive, misinformed, and possibly biased.

[coldfire]

The issue is that any other country would (and should) be criticised more for such a fuck up, especially in addition to successive similar fuck ups, and especially when those fuck ups are being funded by somebody else.

Right. The Arab countries are criticized very often.

[Rorschach]

israel did not break any international law, every action israel took is legit according to it. your claim proves that you either did not read the law, or only took the slice that justifies your claim via selective thinking.

I quoted the law that was broken, so clearly I did read it. As to only taking a slice, well how much more do you want me to quote?

I may be wrong, but simply saying that doesn't make it true. Show me how I'm wrong if you want to change my mind.

[ColoWayno]

The Cambodian Device. Jamie runs really fast with an
attractive fellow on the beach. Max the Bionic Dog walks to
Lebanon and discovers the drunken Exxon tanker captains's
plans to detonate the large Fembot s over Canada. Max runs
back to Jamie in her ski resort so that she can rescue the
well-behaved children from the gangsters. But on her way from
a beauty pageant, she falls off of a cliff and nearly drowns.
Incredibly, Oscar sends the $6 million man to K.O. the
Sudanese gangsters and save Jamie. Overworked and feeling like
shit, Jamie relaxes in front of a warm, black fire with a
normal book and some televisions.

Support this cause:
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~zelenski/rsg/

[ColoWayno]

The Cambodian Device. Jamie runs really fast with an
attractive fellow on the beach. Max the Bionic Dog walks to
Lebanon and discovers the drunken Exxon tanker captains's
plans to detonate the large Fembot s over Canada. Max runs
back to Jamie in her ski resort so that she can rescue the
well-behaved children from the gangsters. But on her way from
a beauty pageant, she falls off of a cliff and nearly drowns.
Incredibly, Oscar sends the $6 million man to K.O. the
Sudanese gangsters and save Jamie. Overworked and feeling like
shit, Jamie relaxes in front of a warm, black fire with a
normal book and some televisions.

Support this cause:
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~zelenski/rsg/

May a crusty and hirsute group of biting cockroaches find your
innards suddenly delectable.

Support this cause:
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~zelenski/rsg/

[Vadjio]

They should have waited until the ship wasn't in international waters, and thus was actively breaching the blockade before boarding. That would have avoided any room for debate on points of law, and given critics less ammunition.

The blockade being legal depends on whether nor not Israel and Palestine are actually at war, which is arguable.

couldn't find your quote of the law, but i suppose it had something to do with the post above, so there:



7.7.4 Breach and Attempted Breach of Blockade. Breach of blockade is the passage of a vessel or aircraft through a blockade without special entry or exit authorization from the blockading belligerent. Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade, and for vessels exiting the blockaded area, continues until the voyage is completed. Knowledge of the existence of the blockade is essential to the offenses of breach of blockade and attempted breach of blockade. Knowledge may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification provided to affected governments. It is immaterial that the vessel or aircraft is at the time of interception bound for neutral territory, if its ultimate destination is the blockaded area. There is a presumption of attempted breach of blockade where vessels or aircraft are bound for a neutral port or airfield serving as a point of transit to the blockaded area. Capture of such vessels is discussed in paragraph 7.10.

[ColoWayno]

Better yet... edit this ... the owner of the site would like to keep it clean. But this way we can mess up threads like this.
Let's customize it for StartingStrength.

http://sentence.bigparadox.com/default.asp

Look for the StartingStrength generator... there's no password so add your own cool stuff.

Here's some results of my first efforts.

"Deadlifting with no hands can damage your appearance"

"Reading Rips books after shampooing gives you the runs"

[ColoWayno]

Deadlifting for the sake of art will leave you feeling empty.

[Stu Hughes]

I don't know if the Israeli forces still haven't released names, but a Dutch PhD student at my university is obviously not in awful conditions as she was able to confirm that she was being detained via her Twitter.

[knkavo]

I agree. I just think it's funny how one sided people are getting about the international law thing, hence my post.

Besides which you shouldn't respond to people whose name sounds like "vagina" :)

[Terminater135]

My point was that people like you jump forward and label anyone who makes any comment regarding anything about Israel, as a blindly pro-hamas/hezbollah person who wants to destroy all jews.

I made a small comment about the knives not looking like a "terrorists arsenal" and suddenly I am an anti-semite who is good friends with terrorist groups.


I just wanted to show that many devout & educated Jews are not so supportive of the state of Israel, rather strongly critical. I myself displayed no opinion on the matter, and Im not going to, because there is no point.

I bet you dont even know the real reason they protest against Israel do you?

[ColoWayno]

Tire flipping on wobbly knees will amaze your friends.

Support this cause:
http://sentence.bigparadox.com/default.asp

Look for the Starting Strength generator.

[knkavo]

I bet you dont even know the real reason they protest against Israel do you?

You have made 83 posts on these boards and only 3 of those were related to strength training issues.

Also you don't know how to spell Terminator.

[Dastardly]

I bet you dont even know the real reason they protest against Israel do you?


One of the basics of Judaism is that we are a people in exile due to Divine decree.

Accordingly, we are opposed to the ideology of Zionism, a recent innovation, which seeks to force the end of exile. Our banishment from the Holy Land will end miraculously at a time when all mankind will unite in the brotherly service of the Creator.

In addition to condemning the central heresy of Zionism, we also reject its policy of aggression against all peoples. Today this cruelty manifests itself primarily in the brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. We proclaim that this inhuman policy is in violation of the Torah.

NKI seeks peace and reconciliation with all peoples and nations. This is especially needed in our relations towards the Islamic world where Zionism has for 53 years done so much to ruin Jewish - Muslim understanding.

Exactly what I thought, but just went and got a quote specially for you darling.

[ColoWayno]

you can also translate your sentences into JIVE.
http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/

Wastedliftin' fo' fun and profit tears de seam in yo' britches.
or Redneck
Daidlif'in' fo' fun an' profit tears th' seam in yer britches.
And other dialects.

Support this cause
http://sentence.bigparadox.com/default.asp

Look for the Starting Strength generator.

[Terminater135]

You have made 83 posts on these boards and only 3 of those were related to strength training issues.

Also you don't know how to spell Terminator.

I joined to post a squat check video but my camera got fucked up before I could film it.

And I nicknamed myself terminater and not terminator on perpose.

[Terminater135]

Exactly what I thought, but just went and got a quote specially for you darling.

Huh?

Just so you'll know, very religious jews protest against Israel because they belive Israel should be created only after the arrivel of the messiah, and that the existing state of Israel makes the messiah unable to arrive.
They want Israel to be destroyed, the messiah to arrive, and then Israel to be recreated. They don't give a fuck about palestinian rights, and by their belief when the messiah arrives the state of Israel can be created and they wouldnt give a fuck if it spreads all over the middle east.

[gzt]

Holy crap, somebody needs to make one of those for @Fit. Broad time and modal domains. Broad time and modal domains!

[ColoWayno]

Holy crap, somebody needs to make one of those for @Fit. Broad time and modal domains. Broad time and modal domains!

As Elmer Fud once said:

Weading Wips books without adeqwate attention to wecovewy can damage youw appeawance.

[Vadjio]

Exactly what I thought, but just went and got a quote specially for you darling.

right, so i guess we should have just believed the state of israel would miraculously appear just like that in one of the days, imo people who believe in such shit should reside in a mental institution.

[run]

HERE IS A LITLE ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE BOAT
]
The IHH was established in 1992 and officially registered in Istanbul in 1995. A French intelligence report concluded that in the mid-1990s, IHH president Bulent Yildrim was directly involved in "recruit[ing] veteran soldiers in anticipation of the coming holy war [jihad]. In particular, some men were sent into war zones in Muslim countries in order to acquire combat experience."
According to Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the IHH is, "an Islamist organisation as it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time." [1]
A member of the group, Izzet Sahin, had previously been arrested by the Israeli security forces on accusation of aiding Palestinian organizations banned by Israel. Serkan Nergis, a spokesman for IHH, told Reuters: "We don't have anything against Israel. Our only aim was to carry aid to the people of Gaza. But for Israel, regardless of your religion or your nationality, if you help the people of Gaza you will be declared a terrorist." [11]
According to the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, the IHH is affiliated with Hamas and the Union of the Good, an Islamic umbrella affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood. [17] Mark Sofer, the Israeli Ambassador to India told The Economic Times that the IHH is "a jihadist organisation with close ties to Al-Qaeda."[18]
A 1996 CIA report on terrorist abuse of charities, declassified after the September 11 attacks, documented IHH as a charity with ties to "Iran and Algerian groups." According to the report, the director of the IHH office in Sarajevo "has been linked to Iranian operatives." The report described "the terrorist-related activities and linkages" of fifteen selected "Islamic NGOs," noting that "individuals connected to some of these NGOs have plotted to kidnap or kill U.S. personnel." And according to French court documents, IHH was the subject of a Turkish criminal investigation in late 1997 when sources revealed that leaders of the group were purchasing automatic weapons from other regional Islamist militant groups. Based on an analysis of seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that "detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya."[19]
IHH is a member of the "Union of Good" (Itelaf al-Khair, also known as the "Charity Coalition"). According to Palestinian intelligence, this organization "is considered -- with regard to material support -- one of the biggest Hamas supporters." Israel outlawed the Union of Good in February 2002, and the United States named it a specially designated global terrorist entity in November 2008. According to the U.S. Treasury Department, the Union of Good was created by the Hamas leadership "in order to facilitate the transfer of funds to Hamas." Intelligence underpinning the U.S. designation noted that the group "facilitates the transfer of tens of millions of dollars a year to Hamas-managed associations." It also "acts as a broker for Hamas by facilitating financial transfers between a web of charitable organizations...and Hamas-controlled organizations in the West Bank and Gaza."[19]
According to statements issued by the U.S. government, the primary purpose behind the founding of the Union of Good by Hamas leaders was "to strengthen Hamas' political and military position in the West Bank and Gaza, including by: (i) diverting charitable donations to support Hamas members and the families of terrorist operatives; and (ii) dispensing social welfare and other charitable services on behalf of Hamas."[19]

[Terminater135]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

Video of the Marmara passengers attacking soldiers trying to get on the ship by a boat, at about 0:08 you can see the Marmara passengers throw a stun grenade at the soldiers.

Stun grenades = Military weapons.

[rom300]

Omfg
I think you hears bullshit from all the cnn and atour natzi line.
I hope that your mother will barn in jarmany and your father will be die in the forast.
Also I hope that your squat and deadlift will be 20kg and when you walk on the street tree will fol on you
DIE aimen-אמן
I hate you man
israel hate you
The army hate you
I hope when you do sex you will be a without Kondom and you will get A aieds
I hope your mother will brake a leg
and your brother will bern by the nutzies
and you will crash on your bike
and opra will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ayel golan shlita!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matel its shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ripptoe is fat man and he have small pinas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slipknot its sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
die mothefacker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rorschach]

Quite.

[Terminater135]

Omfg
I think you hears bullshit from all the cnn and atour natzi line.
I hope that your mother will barn in jarmany and your father will be die in the forast.
Also I hope that your squat and deadlift will be 20kg and when you walk on the street tree will fol on you
DIE aimen-אמן
I hate you man
israel hate you
The army hate you
I hope when you do sex you will be a without Kondom and you will get A aieds
I hope your mother will brake a leg
and your brother will bern by the nutzies
and you will crash on your bike
and opra will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ayel golan shlita!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matel its shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ripptoe is fat man and he have small pinas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slipknot its sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
die mothefacker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[rom300]

סתום צפםה יערבי מסריח בן זונה תמות אמן!!
Nothing wrong with me you the amricen are stupad like a shoes!!!
You are fat nycihon all days lond eat macdonals and spend money on stupad thing
die you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[run]

omfg
i think you hears bullshit from all the cnn and atour natzi line.
I hope that your mother will barn in jarmany and your father will be die in the forast.
Also i hope that your squat and deadlift will be 20kg and when you walk on the street tree will fol on you
die aimen-אמן
i hate you man
israel hate you
the army hate you
i hope when you do sex you will be a without kondom and you will get a aieds
i hope your mother will brake a leg
and your brother will bern by the nutzies
and you will crash on your bike
and opra will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ayel golan shlita!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matel its shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ripptoe is fat man and he have small pinas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slipknot its sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Die mothefacker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
סתום ת'פה
לא להטריל כי אנחנו מנסים להסביר להם למה הם טועים!!
אין טעם בלקלל אותם במיוחד שאתה לא יודע לכתוב

[Vadjio]

סתום צפםה יערבי מסריח בן זונה תמות אמן!!
Nothing wrong with me you the amricen are stupad like a shoes!!!
You are fat nycihon all days lond eat macdonals and spend money on stupad thing
die you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

apparently illiteracy is a disease.

[Terminater135]

סתום צפםה יערבי מסריח בן זונה תמות אמן!!
Nothing wrong with me you the amricen are stupad like a shoes!!!
You are fat nycihon all days lond eat macdonals and spend money on stupad thing
die you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

יא טמבל אתה נותן להם עוד כלים להשתמש נגדנו

[^pala]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs240.snc3/22775_332368837260_180517477260_4028337_3337587_n. jpg

[run]

whatch this-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCXDaAh6rKY&playnext_from=TL&videos=kygYkIB3Jas&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_stronger_r2-2r-4-HM
in the end there is an israeli soldier thet tells what was going on

[ColoWayno]

Someone found a random hate generator.

[knkavo]

And I nicknamed myself terminater and not terminator on perpose.

Well that's ok then.

[MazdaMatt]

This thread has taken a serious turn for the better.

[run]

you have to read this
it's the backround of the people that were on the boat and there tye to hamas and terorisem
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4265.htm

[Smiler Grogan]

Omfg
I think you hears bullshit from all the cnn and atour natzi line.
I hope that your mother will barn in jarmany and your father will be die in the forast.
Also I hope that your squat and deadlift will be 20kg and when you walk on the street tree will fol on you
DIE aimen-אמן
I hate you man
israel hate you
The army hate you
I hope when you do sex you will be a without Kondom and you will get A aieds
I hope your mother will brake a leg
and your brother will bern by the nutzies
and you will crash on your bike
and opra will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ayel golan shlita!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matel its shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ripptoe is fat man and he have small pinas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slipknot its sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
die mothefacker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solid. Nice work.

[fnet]

סתום צפםה יערבי מסריח בן זונה תמות אמן!!
Nothing wrong with me you the amricen are stupad like a shoes!!!
You are fat nycihon all days lond eat macdonals and spend money on stupad thing
die you all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for checking in, Mr. Blink. How's life over at BB.com?

[Dastardly]

Huh?

Just so you'll know, very religious jews protest against Israel because they belive Israel should be created only after the arrivel of the messiah, and that the existing state of Israel makes the messiah unable to arrive.
They want Israel to be destroyed, the messiah to arrive, and then Israel to be recreated. They don't give a fuck about palestinian rights, and by their belief when the messiah arrives the state of Israel can be created and they wouldnt give a fuck if it spreads all over the middle east.

I think you will find that they do "give a fuck" because holy people are very moral people. People with a sense of morality, even if they are not religious do care about their fellow humans. Just as this particular group state so clearly. I also know about the whole messiah deal too, and thought the quote was suggestive enough of that too.

[Dastardly]

And I nicknamed myself terminater and not terminator on perpose.

As long as it was on perpose I guess that is ok.

[Dastardly]

right, so i guess we should have just believed the state of israel would miraculously appear just like that in one of the days, imo people who believe in such shit should reside in a mental institution.

So you are an hardline athiest who is defending the "jewish state of israel" and all of their actions?

[run]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMmDfvAMTqc&feature=popular
this video summs everything we said and that happend

[Terminater135]

I think you will find that they do "give a fuck" because holy people are very moral people. People with a sense of morality, even if they are not religious do care about their fellow humans. Just as this particular group state so clearly. I also know about the whole messiah deal too, and thought the quote was suggestive enough of that too.

Why do you find them as "holy people"? because their religious? and why do you think the are moral? no man can be considered holy, and its wrong to asume that they are very moral.

They are using the palestinines as an excuse to forward their goals, they dont really care about them.