Coaching

[MAD9692]

I’m just thinking out loud over here but, what kind of numbers (lifts) should one have to be an effective coach?
I equate capability to experience (time under the bar) and with so many new x-fit trainers that know shit of shit around I was thinking that a good way to gauge someone's experience and understanding of training would be to know what kind of lifts they have.
I don't know maybe at least hitting the advanced level of PPT?
I understand that the elite level is for lifters with great genetics which may not be a good gauge for someone’s coaching capabilities.
However the advanced level shows at least someone with even shitty genetics has spent a decent amount of time under the bar.
Thoughts?

[Wayne Riddle]

More then numbers involved: Do you know your stuff? Can you explain it to people so they can understand it/ Can you spot areas of weakness and help people address those issues? You could be a quad in a wheelchair and still be a good coach (just my opinion).

[MAD9692]

You could be a quad in a wheelchair and still be a good coach (just my opinion).

Really? So let's say hypothetically that someone reads SS and PPT. They understand the material through and through but they can't lift for shit because they lack the mental fortitude to continously get under a heavy bar. You would think that they can/would be an effective coach? How would they know how to continually have you progressing if they in fact never have?
I'm not knocking you or your opinion BTW. Just debating. Thanks for replying.

[hatmanii]

Really? So let's say hypothetically that someone reads SS and PPT. They understand the material through and through but they can't lift for shit because they lack the mental fortitude to continously get under a heavy bar. You would think that they can/would be an effective coach? How would they know how to continually have you progressing if they in fact never have?
I'm not knocking you or your opinion BTW. Just debating. Thanks for replying.

Knowledge and experience often go hand in hand, but they are exclusive attributes in their own right.

If someone knows their shit and can explain/portray that to the general population in a way that they would understand, then he/she is a good teacher regardless if he/she has any experience in his/her respective field.

Likewise, just because someone has years of experience doing something, that doesn't mean they didn't get their in spite of their lack of knowledge. Or, they just have the god given ability to do something and their methods would not be applicable to the general populous.

There are extremes in every case, however if I were looking for a coach I would be looking for someone with both experience and knowledge. Do they have accomplishments? Have they gotten results? Is their background and expertise applicable to me? etc...

[damonwells]

Coaching without years of experience is difficult. I don't think there is a correlation between lifting XXXlbs and being able to coach well, though. There is more relationship between the years someone has trained and been able to improve from being coached by others, studying, and objectively evaluating one's own performance. There are many folks that are ungodly strong and unable to teach someone to squat properly. Likewise, there are many people that can understand the fundamentals of teaching the squat, yet lack the experience of actually learning it themselves which puts them at a significant disadvantage.

[MAD9692]

Coaching without years of experience is difficult. I don't think there is a correlation between lifting XXXlbs and being able to coach well, though.

I believe that years of experience = xxxlbs.

[damonwells]

How many then? How long have you been training? What's your max squat?

XXXlbs sometimes comes from genetics. Others with weak genetics may not achieve a super impressive total even with years of experience.

Generally, I'd agree with you, but it would be hard to say that someone is strong enough to be an effective coach.

[gzt]

I think you would have to look at years under the bar in conjunction with lifts. I mean, a dude who has trouble squatting 315# is not likely to be a decent coach, though he might be. But when you look at somebody in the 100kg class squatting 250kg raw vs somebody squatting 300kg raw, well, the 250kg is respectable but not actually awesome and 300kg is a pretty good raw lift. Either one may be either a good coach or a mediocre coach. One important thing to do is to look at their powerlifting team/crew/whatever you call it, what they think of their coach, and how their team does.

[MAD9692]

I don't know maybe at least hitting the advanced level of PPT?
I understand that the elite level is for lifters with great genetics which may not be a good gauge for someone’s coaching capabilities.
However the advanced level shows at least someone with even shitty genetics has spent a decent amount of time under the bar.


Damon, I addressed this on the original post.

[Unpossible]

This question only makes any sense if you're trying to evaluate a brand new coach who has never actually coached anyone before. Or if you're trying to sort out anonymous Internet posters, which is really what this is about, right? ;)

The only useful way to judge a coach is on his coaching, not on his past (and certainly not current) performance. Are his trainees performing well, making good progress? Can he teach the movements, detect form issues, construct a training plan, etc? None of this has much to do with how much he can lift. It does, usually, have something to do with experience and knowledge, which can be gained under the bar but also from other coaches and from, well, coaching.

I know for a fact that some individuals considered by Rip to be capable coaches for the basic barbell movements (e.g., part of his cert crew) have never reached the "advanced" level and probably never will.

[gzt]

I suppose somebody who has not formally coached people before and therefore couldn't answer those questions had better be somebody who was on some sort of team or crew where everybody gave feedback to each other or something and not just some lone ranger.

[MAD9692]

I know for a fact that some individuals considered by Rip to be capable coaches for the basic barbell movements (e.g., part of his cert crew) have never reached the "advanced" level and probably never will.

Really? The advanced (not elite) levels look attainable to anyone that follows Rips programs. I would think that all it would take is a few years of hard work.

[MazdaMatt]

I find this thread very amusing because:
I can't read MAD's posts because I've blocked him for this mentallity.
I knew exactly what he was asking based on the title of the thread.
I knew exactly what the responses were going to be before they were posted, and that he'd argue.

Unpossible has the perfect list of criteria for a coach (and sniffed out that this was about anonymous internet posters):

The only useful way to judge a coach is on his coaching, not on his past (and certainly not current) performance. Are his trainees performing well, making good progress? Can he teach the movements, detect form issues, construct a training plan, etc? None of this has much to do with how much he can lift.

Trusting only lifters who lift more than you is Bro mentallity. Putting stock in someone's coaching ability based on their lift numbers is the #1 cause of the proliferation of Broscience.

There is no world record holder in any sport or activity that is coached by someone better than him - or else he wouldn't hold the world record. (except perhaps in some rare exceptions where coach and pupil are not in the same weight class, etc).

[gamedog]

Trusting only lifters who lift more than you is Bro mentallity. Putting stock in someone's coaching ability based on their lift numbers is the #1 cause of the proliferation of Broscience.

I agree with MazdaMatt 100%, pretty-much as-per usual it seems, these days.

Seriously, if the coach is churning out athletes who regularly kick brutal ass, he's probably a good coach. Nuff said.

[Unpossible]

Really? The advanced (not elite) levels look attainable to anyone that follows Rips programs. I would think that all it would take is a few years of hard work.

I agree it's attainable (I certainly hope it is, speaking for myself). Fact is, it isn't always attained, for various reasons.

[hatmanii]

I find this thread very amusing because:
I can't read MAD's posts because I've blocked him for this mentallity.
I knew exactly what he was asking based on the title of the thread.
I knew exactly what the responses were going to be before they were posted, and that he'd argue.

Unpossible has the perfect list of criteria for a coach (and sniffed out that this was about anonymous internet posters):


Trusting only lifters who lift more than you is Bro mentallity. Putting stock in someone's coaching ability based on their lift numbers is the #1 cause of the proliferation of Broscience.

There is no world record holder in any sport or activity that is coached by someone better than him - or else he wouldn't hold the world record. (except perhaps in some rare exceptions where coach and pupil are not in the same weight class, etc).

I find all of this to be acceptable. :D

-Hat

[MazdaMatt]

Thanks. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that thinks with my brain and not my glutes.

[drlvegas]

You could be a quad in a wheelchair and still be a good coach (just my opinion).

Not sure about a quad, but a para for sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iXP9yoc4VY&feature=related

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

The thing about the "Advanced level" for ppst is that it's not based on weight lifted but on recovery.

And when you say a "good coach", what do you mean by this? COaching a novice is different from coaching an intermediate which is different from coaching an advanced trainee.

[Smiler Grogan]

A good coach doesn't have to have great performances to be able to recognize and instruct good play or technique. Look at Jeff Van Gundy, you think he can properly demonstrate how to dominate someone in the low post? Mike Boyle MIGHT weigh a buck-twenty-five soaking wet, but he coaches tons of professional athletes. Todd Haley is an NFL head coach and didn't even play high school football, much less college or pro, he was a golfer.
You knows what you knows, you know?

[MAD9692]

I find this thread very amusing because:
I can't read MAD's posts because I've blocked him for this mentallity.
I knew exactly what he was asking based on the title of the thread.
I knew exactly what the responses were going to be before they were posted, and that he'd argue..

I'm speechless.....blocking someone ...and then responding to their posts?
Fucking GAY. A whole new level of GAYness here.
Anyway the thread is in regards to Coaches, not internet desk jockeys.


Trusting only lifters who lift more than you is Bro mentallity. Putting stock in someone's coaching ability based on their lift numbers is the #1 cause of the proliferation of Broscience..
There is no world record holder in any sport or activity that is coached by someone better than him - or else he wouldn't hold the world record. (except perhaps in some rare exceptions where coach and pupil are not in the same weight class, etc

No shit. I agree with this, but thats not what I said was it? Do me a favor and read my post before you respond. I said that I think a Coach should be able to lift a certain amount of weight (using PPT advanced table as a guide). I specifically said, as detailed in PPT that elite level is for the genetically gifted. I take that to mean that with years of hard work anyone can reach advanced. With experience then comes the ability to coach. Pretty simple.

[MAD9692]

You knows what you knows, you know?

Perhaps you are right. However I would think that this is an exception, not the rule.
Though not great, Jeff VG at least played HS and college ball. He comes from a family of ball coaches. And thats what I'm trying to get at. I never said a Coach had to be an elite athlete. I said that by being able to get to a certain number on the lifts shows you have working experience under your belt.

[MAD9692]

I agree it's attainable (I certainly hope it is, speaking for myself). Fact is, it isn't always attained, for various reasons.

Outside of injuries and old age, I believe they are attainable.
After that I would guess that not having the balls to put in the hard work would keep someone from hitting the numbers.

[Smiler Grogan]

I get what you're saying but I think what most of us are trying to say is that you can put up really good numbers without having much of an understanding of how or why, and without having had to work through the difficulties that you will inevitably run into as you coach others. There's a very good reason that many of the best coaches were mediocre players at best. They learned how to maximize their potential by working very hard and finding out the best way to do things. They hit their ceiling below the elite level, but they can certainly guide someone else with better building blocks to places higher than they themselves could attain.
That's all.

[Unpossible]

Outside of injuries and old age, I believe they are attainable.
After that I would guess that not having the balls to put in the hard work would keep someone from hitting the numbers.


:rolleyes: Okay then.

[MAD9692]

I get what you're saying but I think what most of us are trying to say is that you can put up really good numbers without having much of an understanding of how or why,.

I agree with this, and I guess I should have added this to my original post.
I think a good coach needs both; The understandings of how and why along with the experience of having done it themselves. Not one without the other.


. There's a very good reason that many of the best coaches were mediocre players at best.
They learned how to maximize their potential by working very hard and finding out the best way to do things. They hit their ceiling below the elite level, but they can certainly guide someone else with better building blocks to places higher than they themselves could attain.


I 100% agree, and this was part of my point.
My problem is with the Coach that never learned to maximize his potential, because he didnt put his time in under the bar. Just because you read a few books and took some seminars doesnt mean shit, unless you yourself have done the work IMO.

[MAD9692]

The thing about the "Advanced level" for ppst is that it's not based on weight lifted but on recovery. .

?
It says that the standards presented in the tables represent a 1RM performance that can be reasonably expected of an athlete at various levels of training advancement.

[Wayne Riddle]

Really? So let's say hypothetically that someone reads SS and PPT. They understand the material through and through but they can't lift for shit because they lack the mental fortitude to continously get under a heavy bar. You would think that they can/would be an effective coach? How would they know how to continually have you progressing if they in fact never have?

There is an old saying:
Those who can do, those who can't teach." Experience is always good and would be something I would like when considering a coach. In your example a coach that lacks the fortitude to get under a bar would have a hard time getting people he is coaching under a bar too (my opinion again). Then you could have someone that could get under a bar, and did, but some event left them now unable to do so, could this person be a good coach?

[kittenSmash]

I agree with MAD, a good coach should lead from the front. He didn't say that the coach had to be stronger than all the athletes or some other bullshit broscience that Mazda implied he did, just that he/she should have a certain level of accomplishment in their chosen field. Makes sense to me.

[kittenSmash]

I'm speechless.....blocking someone ...and then responding to their posts?
Fucking GAY. A whole new level of GAYness here.
Anyway the thread is in regards to Coaches, not internet desk jockeys.



No shit. I agree with this, but thats not what I said was it? Do me a favor and read my post before you respond. I said that I think a Coach should be able to lift a certain amount of weight (using PPT advanced table as a guide). I specifically said, as detailed in PPT that elite level is for the genetically gifted. I take that to mean that with years of hard work anyone can reach advanced. With experience then comes the ability to coach. Pretty simple.

Ha,I enjoyed that post, made me chuckle.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"It says that the standards presented in the tables represent a 1RM performance that can be reasonably expected of an athlete at various levels of training advancement."

Fuck those charts.

THose charts have no bearing on the novice, intermediate and advanced levels of training, which are based on how often you can hit a new PR or recovery (which is really the same thing).

[hatmanii]

"It says that the standards presented in the tables represent a 1RM performance that can be reasonably expected of an athlete at various levels of training advancement."

Fuck those charts.

THose charts have no bearing on the novice, intermediate and advanced levels of training, which are based on how often you can hit a new PR or recovery (which is really the same thing).

Rip took the charts out of the book in PPST2 for a reason.

-Hat

[MazdaMatt]

copied from other person's quote:

I'm speechless.....blocking someone ...and then responding to their posts?
Fucking GAY. A whole new level of GAYness here.
Anyway the thread is in regards to Coaches, not internet desk jockeys.

MAD, we all know that you started this thread because you were calling me out for helping people in their form check videos and you felt I'm unqualified because I squat less than you. Unpossible called it, so did I when I just saw the title of your thread.

BTW, you're still blocked and I think I'm done having fun with this. You clearly lose because Steven Hawking could read SS and coach someone's squat.

I love the internet.

[nisora33]

FWIW, in a recent CrossFit Journal article written on platform coaching, Bill Starr comments:

"As I mentioned, some of the best platform coaches achieved little success in the sport when they lifted. Ironically, one of the best I was ever around had never competed at all: Dick Smith, the long-time trainer for the York Barbell Club. I once wrote that when 'Smitty' worked with a lifter, he could count on an extra 20-to-30 pounds on his total."

Note that Starr doesn't say that Smitty wasn't quite strong, or that Smitty had never lifted, only that Smitty had never competed. That said, I think Mr. Starr's words are worth noting against the broader context of what's been said here.

-S.

[MAD9692]

MAD, we all know that you started this thread because you were calling me out for helping people in their form check videos and you felt I'm unqualified because I squat less than you. .

Actually I was calling out coaches like Mendhi. It's pretty comical to think that anything would be of reference to you. You and your thoughts are irrelevant.
I called you out not because your lifts were less than mine (that would be douchee) but because you have the weakest lifts in the entire forum, yet your giving advice to everyone. That is douchee.

[gzt]

Mehdi fails in every aspect. As somebody else pointed out, he has clearly not spent much time next to the guy under the bar (ie, not much real coaching experience). I feel silly for not having noticed.

[milo]

I think time spent training hard and seriously is an important quality in a coach. I think their past and/or present performance is a reasonable way to assess if they have that valuable time under the bar, is there a better way to do it?

[Squatson]

The people who have to work the hardest to get slightly above average results will be the best coaches.

I was the captain of my HS track team, and I wasn't close to being the best athlete. The success that I had was because of a lot of hard work and paying attention to the little details.

The guys that were faster than me were faster because they were built that way. They wouldn't be able to tell anyone else how to do it, because they didn't have to work for it.

If a guy squats 600 because he is a freak of nature, would he make a better coach than the guy used to be a skinny little fuck and now squats 550?

[milo]

If a guy squats 600 because he is a freak of nature, would he make a better coach than the guy used to be a skinny little fuck and now squats 550?


The answer here is obvious, of course I would rather have the guy who had to build himself up and bust his ass over the guy who just walks by some iron and grows strong. I would never advocate picking a coach based entirely upon the coaches performances as an athlete. I want the guy who had to work hard for YEARS. I'm advocating using performance as a metric to ASSIST in determining time spent busting ass.

If you want me to pay you to coach me and your all time best squat is 225, you'd better be an amputee or have MS or something. Time spent training hard gives a person the necessary perspective to be a great coach. I am not claiming that strong = good coach, or even that not strong = bad coach. But I am claiming that if you haven't put in the sweat, the deck is stacked HEAVILY against you. Is there another way of assessing the "time spent under bar" factor without accounting for the individuals performance?

[kittenSmash]

If a guy squats 600 because he is a freak of nature, would he make a better coach than the guy used to be a skinny little fuck and now squats 550?

No, but do you want a strength coach that thinks 225 is heavy? No one is saying a coach has to be some monster, but as Dan John said on this subject, "beware the real estate professor who doesn't own real estate."

[ColoWayno]

Try this parallel,
I am a musician, a natural born musician. I have perfect pitch, which means you could put me in a cave for a week with no IPod or anything, haul me behind a curtain and have someone play a note on an instrument somewhere, and I could tell you which note they were playing... whole chords even.
When I started teaching I couldn't relate at all to the normal kinds of problems people have learning music. I had a lot of frustrated students. After I figured this stuff out I became a decent teacher but not great. The best teachers were talented, but for the most part had to learn things the hard way... all of the little tricks, etc. What a lot of people like me do, who stay in that business is to start accepting only the gifted students who don't really need that much help with the basics. They of course succeed because they are gifted in the first place.
By the way, there's nothing more frustrating than trying to teach music to a person who is just not going to get it. I'm sure I didn't hide it all that well.
Just play the damn music, and play it right!

Props to Rip for dealing with the likes of me in strength training.

Ha, I just saw this and it seemed appropriate (not comparing myself to the great Jimi Hendrix)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrjyLhmcWI&feature=player_embedded

[MAD9692]

If a guy squats 600 because he is a freak of nature, would he make a better coach than the guy used to be a skinny little fuck and now squats 550?

Re-read the OP. This is not what I am saying.
My beef is with the little skinny guy who has never done the work and never increased his lifts to anything signifigant.


The answer here is obvious, of course I would rather have the guy who had to build himself up and bust his ass over the guy who just walks by some iron and grows strong. I would never advocate picking a coach based entirely upon the coaches performances as an athlete. I want the guy who had to work hard for YEARS. I'm advocating using performance as a metric to ASSIST in determining time spent busting ass.?

This is my point. I agree.


I am not claiming that strong = good coach, or even that not strong = bad coach. But I am claiming that if you haven't put in the sweat, the deck is stacked HEAVILY against you. Is there another way of assessing the "time spent under bar" factor without accounting for the individuals performance?

+1 Thanks for spelling this out better than I did.

[MAD9692]

Fuck those charts.

Alrighty then...maybe the charts are a bad indication. What else could we use to gauge?


a good coach should lead from the front

This.


No one is saying a coach has to be some monster

Some people are funny with what they choose to read in a post. I'm glad you understood my point.

My real question I guess is how these "Coaches" program the lifts and advancement. If they've never advanced themselves, how do they know what their trainees should do?

[LimieJosh]

Something that I dont think has been explitely stated yet is that there are important elements to strength coaching that do not exist for coaches in almost every other sport. Hard work is needed to be good in most things, but what consitutes "hard" means something very very different in power/weight lifting. That, IMO, makes the personal experience/competance of the coach so more important than for coaches of other sports. I cant/wont put a number on the threshold required for credability, but its certainly a component.

You might argue that a certain number of pupils with a high enough degree of success can compensate for personal experience, but as has been suggested, I would doubt the ability of a man who had never got past a 3 plate squat to produce that many good squatters himself.

[NolanPower]

Lifting talent and coaching ability are completely independent.

I am not a good coach, I'm a decent coach at best, but I have very poor squat form myself so its hard for me to see problems with others. I have good bench form and have had to work at it alot so I'm a relatively competent benching coach. I am a good deadlifter who has never had to work at being a good deadlifter it just happened. I use utterly ridiculous form and don't even know how to position myself to start a deadlift.

Now theres a crossfitter nearby who has a modest squat around 405, and a deadlift somewhat higher than that, but I'd take his teaching over mine in most cases because hes a better coach.

Some people are athletes and not coaches, make sure you know who to listen to, as I've tried to train two people in my life and program for them and coach them and both left the sport due to back injuries.

Long story short: You do not want me to coach you no matter how strong I am.

[Gary Gibson]

Try this parallel,
I am a musician, a natural born musician. I have perfect pitch, which means you could put me in a cave for a week with no IPod or anything, haul me behind a curtain and have someone play a note on an instrument somewhere, and I could tell you which note they were playing... whole chords even.
When I started teaching I couldn't relate at all to the normal kinds of problems people have learning music. I had a lot of frustrated students. After I figured this stuff out I became a decent teacher but not great. The best teachers were talented, but for the most part had to learn things the hard way... all of the little tricks, etc. What a lot of people like me do, who stay in that business is to start accepting only the gifted students who don't really need that much help with the basics. They of course succeed because they are gifted in the first place.
By the way, there's nothing more frustrating than trying to teach music to a person who is just not going to get it. I'm sure I didn't hide it all that well.
Just play the damn music, and play it right!

Props to Rip for dealing with the likes of me in strength training.

Ha, I just saw this and it seemed appropriate (not comparing myself to the great Jimi Hendrix)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPrjyLhmcWI&feature=player_embedded

I haven't read this whole thread, but stumbled upon this post. Just wanted to say that I hate people like you, Wayno!

Seriously, I wish to god I had musical talent. I've learned to sight read and to play piano enough to play stuff from my favorite singer-songwriters. But I'll never be a musician and that makes me very sad.

Same thing goes for athletic stuff. I'll never be like the guys with 30-40" verticals or who squat 405 to depth the first time they try. I am sad for this, too.

Edit: And so this isn't too much of a threadjack, let me say that both the Limie and Nolan make excellent points.

[gzt]

I just want to chime in that I want to be able to deadlift like Nolan.

[NolanPower]

I would not suggest trying it, at least if you mean with my ridiculous form. Maybe re-roll your genetic dice to try and come from a family who have had two people pull 3.5X bodyweight before turning 21.

[ColoWayno]

I haven't read this whole thread, but stumbled upon this post. Just wanted to say that I hate people like you, Wayno!

Seriously, I wish to god I had musical talent. I've learned to sight read and to play piano enough to play stuff from my favorite singer-songwriters. But I'll never be a musician and that makes me very sad.

Same thing goes for athletic stuff. I'll never be like the guys with 30-40" verticals or who squat 405 to depth the first time they try. I am sad for this, too.

Edit: And so this isn't too much of a threadjack, let me say that both the Limie and Nolan make excellent points.

Hahaha. I will say that perfect pitch ended up being kind of a crutch that hindered me a little in music school. When one prof discovered that he had all kinds of mean tricks up his sleeve to screw with me. Like never letting me read in clefs that I actually knew (this made me use relative pitch like everyone else).
Hope that, and the fact that a 3 plate squat is a long term goal for me make you feel a little better.

[gzt]

I meant weight, not form. I'm more of a squatter than a deadlifter or bencher, I think. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

[MAD9692]

Maybe re-roll your genetic dice to try and come from a family who have had two people pull 3.5X bodyweight before turning 21.

Holy fuck.


Now theres a crossfitter nearby who has a modest squat around 405, and a deadlift somewhat higher than that, but I'd take his teaching over mine in most cases because hes a better coach.


I think these lifts demonstrate that he has spent some time under the bar. I think with that experience coupled with good coaching ability would make a good coach.

[Gary Gibson]

To make up for my threadjack a little more and to put some numbers on this argument...

Lifter 1: starts with a 405-lb SQ and ends up with an 800-lb SQ (belt only).
Lifter 2: starts with a 185-lb SQ and ends up with a 550-lb SQ (belt only).

There is no hard and fast rule that says that Lifter 2 would make a better coach...

...buuuuuuuut I would say the odds are he would indeed be the guy who had to learn a lot more on his journey.

Doesn't mean he can communicate it effectively, but his extremely steep learning curve (not being naturally strong or athletic) means that he learned an awful lot to get to where he did. If he's smart and an effective communicator, then he has the makings of a very good strength coach.

[MAD9692]

...buuuuuuuut I would say the odds are he would indeed be the guy who had to learn a lot more on his journey.

I agree.
My beef is with the guy that didn't go through this progression.

[Gary Gibson]

Another very important quality is the ability to inspire. Some people just make you WANT to do everything in your power to please or impress them. A great coach needs some combination of charisma, toughness and kindness to draw out the best in his athletes along with the experience to make good choices and gain the respect of his followers, just like great military leaders.

[PVC]

Another very important quality is the ability to inspire. Some people just make you WANT to do everything in your power to please or impress them. A great coach needs some combination of charisma, toughness and kindness to draw out the best in his athletes along with the experience to make good choices and gain the respect of his followers, just like great military leaders.

This is a very good, often overlooked point.

[LimieJosh]

Lifting talent and coaching ability are completely independent.

The variables have different relationships depending on the direction.

Many very strong people are shit coaches.
However, very few very good coaches are themselves weak.

Weak obviously has a context, but in the context of this board I would likely be considered as such by many. My background has made me always prioritize a sub 5 minute mile and a sub 50 second quarter. so even though I value the role of strength and have spent 15 years developing/maintaining it, I have only ever done so in the context of being able to maintain those times. My sacrifice has always been strength in favour of conditioning. I have a decent understanding of what a good (high bar) squat looks like. I have a network of decent people I can call on if I cant figure out how to fix an issue in myself or others. Compared to others who run comparable times, my squat is (or at least has been) impressive. Maybe those things can contribute to helping a novice start getting strong. However, if someone wants to get really strong, how can I add much to the process if I have never shown the fortitude or the commitment to do all that is necessary to add that 4th plate to my squat myself?

[MAD9692]

Interesting and Impressive.

[stef]

I know for a fact that some individuals considered by Rip to be capable coaches for the basic barbell movements (e.g., part of his cert crew) have never reached the "advanced" level and probably never will.

The correct use of "advanced" has already been addressed. But since I don't know what everyone else's numbers are and none AFAIK keep a public log or compete in all the addressed lifts, that's an interesting claim to throw out there. Especially the "never will" thing. Never being a long time and all.

FWIW, there are two people who might not have hit of all the advanced guidelines-- yet -- but I'm not even sure about that. I'd have to ask.

[Unpossible]

The correct use of "advanced" has already been addressed. But since I don't know what everyone else's numbers are and none AFAIK keep a public log or compete in all the addressed lifts, that's an interesting claim to throw out there. Especially the "never will" thing. Never being a long time and all.

FWIW, there are two people who might not have hit of all the advanced guidelines-- yet -- but I'm not even sure about that. I'd have to ask.


Was my comment perceived as a slight? I think I made it clear that I don't care how much a coach lifts/ed.

When I say "I know", it's because I have met the individuals, and know one in particular. When I say "probably never will", it's because, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't trying to get their lifts up to that level since they're busy pursuing other goals and running their business.

Of course, maybe the people I'm referring to aren't part of the crew anymore. In any case, whatever their lifts were, are, or will be, at some point Mark Rippetoe felt that those people were competent enough to teach me the basic barbell lifts, and that's good enough for me.

[TomF]

Coaching for what purpose?

A technique coach - I'd want someone who's achieved at least moderately well in the discipline, but who wasn't a "natural." Someone who had to sort through a bunch of roadblocks is going to be more likely to help me identify and get past mine ... The guy who's been a "natural" might not recognize the nuances of my technical faults, having never experienced them.

A strategy or motivation coach doesn't need to have been a high performer in my particular sport, but it helps if they were in some field. The best motivational coaches IMO are lateral thinkers, who can apply what they've got to have a significant impact in a variety of fields.

[MAD9692]

Coaching for what purpose?.

Teaching the lifts and programming for Strength, Power, or Mass.

[LimieJosh]

Of course, maybe the people I'm referring to aren't part of the crew anymore. In any case, whatever their lifts were, are, or will be, at some point Mark Rippetoe felt that those people were competent enough to teach me the basic barbell lifts...


Which while important is only small part of what goes into being a good strength coach.

My ex has a perfect overhead sqt, but she's 105lbs and can barely manage a full ROM pull up.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

"Teaching the lifts and programming for Strength, Power, or Mass. "

Those are all different skills. THe more advanced you get the bigger the difference between coaches

[MAD9692]

"Teaching the lifts and programming for Strength, Power, or Mass. "

Those are all different skills.

You're right. That's why I said for Strength, Power, or Mass.

[Jamie J. Skibicki]

Coaching a beginner is not the same as an intermediate is not the same as advanced is not the same as world class. Coaches are rarely good at all of them and not just becuase it is a wide range of knowledge. Each requires a different set of skills.

[MAD9692]

Coaching a beginner is not the same as an intermediate is not the same as advanced is not the same as world class.

This is also true.
I'm not sure how this lends itself to the argument that a coach (regardless of level) should have some signifigant time under the bar. But what you are saying is correct, there are different levels of coaching.

[Carlos Daniel]

I think it's pretty much agreed upon that how much a coach lift or has lifted has no direct bearing on how good a coach he is, after all you can have an amazing coach that just churns out beasts on a regular basis yet is a weak guy himself. The thing is, if you encounter such a situation it would sound rather shady, wouldn't it? Barring injury and other medical conditions, if someone has the knowledge to make a trainee very strong, why wouldn't that person apply that knowledge to himself? Not only that, but much comes from having done stuff yourself, instead of telling people how to do stuff.

It's like having a fat cardiologist, he could be a wonderful cardiologist but it's not exactly inspiring.

[stef]

Was my comment perceived as a slight? I think I made it clear that I don't care how much a coach lifts/ed.

When I say "I know", it's because I have met the individuals, and know one in particular.

No, Un. It just seemed very odd given that since we don't all train together we don't know those #s. With your additional comments, I can piece together who you were referring to. People's interests and levels of commitment definitely do change over time. That definitely carries over into coaching.

s.

[Ryan Long]

I've had a few lifting coaches that I could out lift even when they were at my peak, I've had track coaches that I was faster than, and I'm not an 'elite' athlete by any means. The attribute all those coaches shared was a love of their sport that drove them to learn as much as they could about it, the desire to share their passion with others, and the ability to communicate that knowledge in a motivational manner. Perhaps those coaches identified early on in their athletic careers that they did'nt have the athletic attributes necessary to succeed as an athlete and decided to focus their efforts in an aspect of the sport where they could succeed. Never during my training was my coach's total relevant. Had I pre-judged their coaching ability based on their lifting ability I would have lost out on some awesome experiences.

[MAD9692]

I've had a few lifting coaches that I could out lift even when they were at my peak.

I think you missed the point.

[MAD9692]

People's interests and levels of commitment definitely do change over time. That definitely carries over into coaching.
s.

Stef, What's your take on this? Do you believe that a good coach should have some signifigant time under the bar?