rock climbing

[noahfor]

Hi. I just started rock climbing. The type of climbing I do is called bouldering, which consists of a short, difficult set of moves. One bouldering "problem" might only last 30 seconds, so the difficulty is mainly strength related - grip strength. Alot of the "holds" involve the fingers hanging on without the thumbs doing anything, but there is quite a bit of pinching, and grabbing of holds with a very large radius, like palming a basketball, and sometimes this palming has to be done without the thumb. There is also something called crimping, where just the tips of the fingers are on the hold, but the knuckle closest to the tip is in extension. Everything with the grip is pretty much static, so there is no eccentric or concentric or crushing.

I've never trained grip before, so I'm not really familiar with how the hands and forearms react and adapt to stress, or how long they take to recover, or how much stress is optimal to produce strength gains. But, my question is not how to separately train grip for climbing. I think it's too early to implement a grip routine, while the climbing itself is still very stressful (or maybe not?). My question is if anyone can give me an idea of what kind of stress I'm putting on my hands when I go climbing? How long should I climb? How many days a week? It's the norm for novice or intermediate climbers to go 4-5 days a week and spend 1-2 hours climbing. Is that too much?

Any ideas?

Thanks.

[Dastardly]

I went climbing yesterday, it is indeed brutally dependent on fingers/forearms.

Having reasonable ability in pull ups makes it piss easy to pull oneself up if a good hold is available. But even the holds rated as "easy" for climbing folk, feel very hard for me because of their dependence on pure finger gripping. There is no way to apply arm & lat strength without vastly superior finger gripping.

All the regular climbers had jacked forearms even if they were very skinny, just like popeye.

I agree that you do not need to train grip for climbing separately. In terms of fatigue, your probably best to try it and see.

I reckon that the finger/arm fatigue is only likely to bother you whilst you are a newcomer to climbing. You will probably adapt fairly quickly.

In the event that it does leave your grip tired, remember that mixed or hook grip for deadlifts does not actually require a large amount of grip strength, you could probably manage with the fatigue from climbing. If you ever get stuck and still want to deadlift, you always have straps.

[Squatson]

I reccomend the book Mastery of Hand Strength by John Brookfield.

[PVC]

my question is not how to separately train grip for climbing. I think it's too early to implement a grip routine, while the climbing itself is still very stressful

Smart guy.


My question is if anyone can give me an idea of what kind of stress I'm putting on my hands when I go climbing? How long should I climb? How many days a week? It's the norm for novice or intermediate climbers to go 4-5 days a week and spend 1-2 hours climbing. Is that too much?

Are you doing SS?

[Ian Kovtunovich]

Any ideas?

Thanks.

How long have you been climbing, and how hard are you bouldering now? And where are you doing most of your climbing, gym or outside?

[Pistol Pete]

The best thing you can do to improve your grip is to just climb at this point. It is a lot more to do with technique and being efficient than being strong. Dont waste your time training grip specifically, climbing will give you more than you need in the way of stimulus for improved strength and endurance and you will have the added benefit of experience.

As for the frequency and duration its going to depend on what else you are doing and how well you can recover from climbing.

[TomV]

The best thing you can do to improve your grip is to just climb at this point. It is a lot more to do with technique and being efficient than being strong. Dont waste your time training grip specifically, climbing will give you more than you need in the way of stimulus for improved strength and endurance and you will have the added benefit of experience.

As for the frequency and duration its going to depend on what else you are doing and how well you can recover from climbing.

Quoted for truth. Learn to climb, technique will mean so, so, so much more than strength at the moment.

[Dastardly]

The best thing you can do to improve your grip is to just climb at this point. It is a lot more to do with technique and being efficient than being strong. Dont waste your time training grip specifically, climbing will give you more than you need in the way of stimulus for improved strength and endurance and you will have the added benefit of experience.

As for the frequency and duration its going to depend on what else you are doing and how well you can recover from climbing.

He knows this, but is more concerned about climbing being too much.


But, my question is not how to separately train grip for climbing. I think it's too early to implement a grip routine, while the climbing itself is still very stressful (or maybe not?). My question is if anyone can give me an idea of what kind of stress I'm putting on my hands when I go climbing? How long should I climb? How many days a week? It's the norm for novice or intermediate climbers to go 4-5 days a week and spend 1-2 hours climbing. Is that too much?

[MaxPotential]

Learn to climb, technique will mean so, so, so much more than strength at the moment.

My experience was the opposite. I felt that hand/finger strength accounted for the majority of my getting from 5.6 to 5.9. Similarly, it's the first thing that goes if you don't climb for a while.

That said, I agree with others that have advised OP to stick to climbing instead of adding grip-strengthening exercises. Even with (gym) climbing alone, I got pretty bad tendonitis in my fingers when I first started, at 3 sessions/week of ~3 hours each.

FYI, doing SS (at embarrassingly low poundages). I expect to enjoy superior grip strength once I get into range of substantial deadlifts.

[noahfor]

Hey, thanks for the responses, and the book recommendation.

I am doing Starting Strength. I just started the routine. I've done it before, as well as other routines. I'm coming back from a one year layoff, but I had about two years of weight training experience before that, not all of which was productive. I'm lifting at about 50% of my previous level.

I feel like I have a pretty good handle on whether or not I'm doing too much with the weights, how much to do, when to take an extra rest day, etc. But, it's not the same when it comes to the climbing. That's what I'm trying to figure out, though not just how to avoid overtraining, but how to make the best gains.

I've been climbing for about a month, solely in the gym. I guess I've been going three times a week, an hour and a half per session.

Also, my priority is to get better at climbing.

What is the climbing equivalent of 3 sets of 5? What is the climbing equivalent of Monday Wednesday Friday?

[Dastardly]

What is the climbing equivalent of 3 sets of 5? What is the climbing equivalent of Monday Wednesday Friday?

There is no equivalent. With barbell strength training, you are lifting the maximum of your physical ability for a brief few seconds. Trying to push so hard that it disrupts homeostasis just from a few seconds of activity.

Climbing is completely different. The challenge is not so systemic and maximal. It is medium intensity repetitive strain on your fingers & forearms for an hour or so.

Its the kind of thing you just let your body slowly adapt too. Over time you will be able to climb for longer durations with less rest and have better grip.

That is your progression.

But for the specifics you should really ask some experienced climbers, find a forum or ask your coach.

[Pistol Pete]

OP please skip down to the part where it says OP.
Dastardly enjoy the read.


He knows this, but is more concerned about climbing being too much.
I'm petty and competitive and have no desire to be the bigger man (figuratively speaking only of course) so I'll bite.

Squatson probably would've been a better target recommending a book on training grip strength as the entire content of his post. The fact that you chose me over him leads me to believe you're either stupid, or this post is more a result of my disagreeing with you rather bluntly on some nutrition post. It contributes nothing to the OP and that being what I'm accused of it doesn't make much sense that you yourself would do that unless, you're a hypocrite. Are you a hypocrite? Or was it cause I rubbed you the wrong way the other day?

I'm aware of the OP's original questions (None of which you answered in 3 posts by the way. It's official, you're a hypocrite although I still think I rubbed you the wrong way) and as a climber of 9 years myself was reinforcing his correct opinion of not needing to train grip outside of climbing at this time.
Now you did quote my clearly separated second paragraph but you might have missed it; I'll try to make it stand out more but just in case it was unclear, allow me to make it less so.

As for the frequency and duration its going to depend on what else you are doing and how well you can recover from climbing.

Now that we have some of that information (he's just doing SS) the questions can be better answered.

Outcome
Is Dastardly:
A Hypocrite? Yes✔ No_
Stupid? Yes_ No_
Angry at Pistol? Yes_ No_
Going to think twice about calling someone out next time who has clearly contributed more to a thread? Yes_ No_
Please reply filling in the appropriate checks.

Is Pistol an asshole? Yes✔✔ No_

OP

I had a similar issue trying to schedule rugby in around my lifting and like yourself sport was my primary focus over strength gains. The advice that I had received from Rip having to practice twice and one game a week, I'm thinking 3 climbing days here, was to continue on with my linear progressions twice a week.
From Rip himself it looks like:
Mon- A DAY
Tues- Practice/climbing in your case
Wed- Rest
Thurs- B DAY a.m. and practice p.m./climb
Fri- Rest
Sat- Game/climb
Sun- Rest

As for the duration it's going to vary day to day probably based on the problems you're doing I'd say 1-2 hours is a good start though. Make sure if you're not climbing in a group you are getting enough rest between attempts/sends. If your grip or pull strength goes on you before you're ready to leave just switch to easier problems and focus on technique and better body positions. Think about the beta a lot and what would be the least taxing way of doing that climb. The better you get at visualising/coming up with good beta means less attempts trying to figure it out means longer sessions to hit the same intensity and more climbing!!!
This is making me want to pull on some painfully small shoes again good luck with the bouldering it's by far the best type of climbing there is.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

/OT (with apologies to noahfor)


Think about the beta a lot and what would be the least taxing way of doing that climb.

Pete,

could you please explain what you mean by beta, in this context ?
Thanks a lot,

IPB

[Dastardly]

Is Dastardly:
A Hypocrite? Yes✔ No_It seems so
Stupid? Yes_ No_ I have medical condition which causes me to miss lines or paragraphs of text, even when writing myself!
Angry at Pistol? Yes_ No✔Why would I be?
Going to think twice about calling someone out next time who has clearly contributed more to a thread? Yes_ No_didn't mean it that way.
Please reply filling in the appropriate checks.

Is Pistol an asshole? Yes✔ No_Probably less than you think

[Ian Kovtunovich]

OP, If you have been climbing a month, you don't really need to worry about grip strength. This is not meant as an insult, but you are probably a hopeless bumbly at a great many aspects of climbing. This is OK. Grip is but one piece of the pie. Footwork is another, very large piece of the pie. Body position as it relates to footwork is another. Pulling and lockoff strength is another. Breathing while you climb is another. Core tension is another. Variety of movement, and building a "library" of positions and movements is another. Variety of climbing styles is another--slabs, steeps, slappy slopers, heinous crimps, pockets, dynamic moves, and on and on.

Much as Rip advocates for strength training that works the most muscle groups at once, and a more generally applicable number of reps and sets, I would say what you need to do is just climb. There is no way that after a month of climbing, that grip is anywhere near the sole limiting factor in your progression. You need to develop all of the various aspects of your climbing, by climbing. Once you are climbing perhaps V3, consistently, you might have some idea of where your weaknesses are, and then you should address them. Until then, just climb and have fun.

[Pistol Pete]

/OT (with apologies to noahfor)



Pete,

could you please explain what you mean by beta, in this context ?
Thanks a lot,

IPB

Beta just means the best way to climb a particular problem.

[IlPrincipeBrutto]

Beta just means the best way to climb a particular problem.

Thanks a lot.

IPB

[Squatson]

Maximum Bob by Elmore Leonard

[noahfor]

Pete: Thanks. I'm going to try that schedule out.

Ian: Thanks for the advice. I think you are right. I have taken notice of how completely imprecise and haphazard my climbing is, and how I really have no idea what I'm doing, other than just grabbing holds that are within reach and putting my feet wherever I can.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

Pete: Thanks. I'm going to try that schedule out.

Ian: Thanks for the advice. I think you are right. I have taken notice of how completely imprecise and haphazard my climbing is, and how I really have no idea what I'm doing, other than just grabbing holds that are within reach and putting my feet wherever I can.


Right on. Don't forget about the having fun part, too! Finding something you are stoked to do is some of the best motivation to get better.

Where are you, anyway? Do you have any good outside destinations, or are you mostly gym-ing it?

[noahfor]

I live in Pittsburgh, PA. I've not been outside yet. But, I have ordered the Coopers Rock bouldering guide. I'm pretty excited to get out there. I think it's the best, closest place - about an hour and a half. I think I'm going to wait just a little while until my skin isn't so tender.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

Heh. Your skin will almost certainly get trashed the first time you get outside. I wouldn't wait on that, though. Climbing outside is kind of a different animal from gym climbing, technique-wise, as well as mentally (unless you are fortunate enough to have a gym where the bouldering area tops out). Outside is where the goods are, for sure.

[noahfor]

So, does anyone know if finger "power" is a meaningful term, especially in cases involving isometric contraction, where the finger themselves aren't moving but are involved in an explosive pull-up type move? Or, does it all come down to absolute finger strength?

Suppose you are trying to do some explosive pull-up type movement, but the limiting factor in completing the movement is your fingers inability to transfer enough force onto whatever they are holding on to. Would that be because they just aren't able to produce enough force period, or because they can't produce it fast enough?

What I'm sort of driving at is the question of whether or not campus board training (to use a climbing terms) on progressively smaller and smaller holds is really necessary? If the fingers are the limiting factor in an explosive campus move, but it's not power, rather absolute strength that is lacking then I would think that weighted hangs would be a safer alternative. And, if the point of campus training is to build power in the larger pulling muscles, and not the fingers, then it would make sense to keep the fingers from interfering with that training.

[spiderman]

Also, my priority is to get better at climbing.

Me too. I've been bouldering for almost 20 years. The only muscles I have that could be called developed are forearms so I think just bouldering is enough training for your forearms. I've done dumbbell training and abs work as cross training over the years. My best bouldering season was a couple years ago after a lot of abs training. Being tall and thin means the connection between my feet and hands is my weak link. I'm hoping some strength training in the Starting Strength style will help me as a boulderer.


What is the climbing equivalent of 3 sets of 5?

In the gym for about 2 hours without sitting around reading magazines. I think you want to get on the wall every five or six minutes if you are trying hard on something. I think more than 3 hours on plastic is not beneficial. Since you are starting, your 1.5 hours is probably perfect so your tendons can catch up with your muscles which grow faster.

Bouldering on real rock takes much more time. It is easy to spend 8 hours in the boulders.


What is the climbing equivalent of Monday Wednesday Friday?

Same: Monday, Wednesday, Friday. When I'm cross training with weights I boulder three days per week and lift and do abs work after climbing. If I'm not cross training then I boulder every other day (3.5 days per week.) Day on, day off with a two day break now and then is very common. I have friends that are stronger boulderers than me and some of them will boulder 4 days per week. I've done that sometimes but prefer a rest day after each bouldering day.

You are really doing yourself a big favour if you are a new climber and doing press and bench press. All my bouldering friends and I have gone though injuries that were likely due to too much pulling and not enough pushing. Most of them at least do pushups to try and balance things out but it takes most boulderers a long time to realize this is a good idea.

[noahfor]

Hey. Thanks for the thoughtful response, definitely some useful information. But, may I ask if you have any insight into the post occuring just above yours? I had actually just bumped the thread with that new question.

I'll just copy/paste so it doesn't get overlooked:

So, does anyone know if finger "power" is a meaningful term, especially in cases involving isometric contraction, where the finger themselves aren't moving but are involved in an explosive pull-up type move? Or, does it all come down to absolute finger strength?

Suppose you are trying to do some explosive pull-up type movement, but the limiting factor in completing the movement is your fingers inability to transfer enough force onto whatever they are holding on to. Would that be because they just aren't able to produce enough force period, or because they can't produce it fast enough?

What I'm sort of driving at is the question of whether or not campus board training (to use a climbing terms) on progressively smaller and smaller holds is really necessary? If the fingers are the limiting factor in an explosive campus move, but it's not power, rather absolute strength that is lacking then I would think that weighted hangs would be a safer alternative. And, if the point of campus training is to build power in the larger pulling muscles, and not the fingers, then it would make sense to keep the fingers from interfering with that training.

[spiderman]

Climbers often talk about contact strength: the ability to maximally recruit your muscles in the shortest time possible. Campusing on small holds helps develop this. Isometric strength is important too. I don't hear much talk about "finger power" but if you have it then you are probably better for it.

It is natural to think strength is the problem when your muscles are burning but for almost any novice technique is the limiting factor by far. Use your energy to climb. You need to log a lot of hours of climbing now and have fun.

You likely don't have the connective tissue strength or joint stability in your elbows and fingers for campusing regularly without injury. I'd recommend you hold off on advanced climbing training like that for at least a year.

[noahfor]

By "finger power" I guess I meant "contact strength." What I'm curious about is how a person is able to tell whether grip failure on a dynamic move is a matter of contact strength or absolute strength.

Also, I wasn't planning on campus training any time soon. I was just thinking about it. Actually, at the moment, the only thing I'm doing to supplement my climbing is dieting to lose weight. I figured that, in addition to improving my strength to weight ratio, less weight would lessen the amount of wear and tear on joints, tendons, and skin. Once I return to maintenance calories I'm going to implement a simple barbell routine.

[spiderman]

Suppose you are shooting for an edge three feet up. If you are deadpointing with perfect technique then the amount of strength to catch the edge is the same amount of strength to hold the edge statically. So if you can hold the edge statically but not deadpoint it then your contact strength is the problem. That said, chances are the perfect deadpointing is not happening. ;-)

There is a lot of overlap. If you have a lot of static strength you can have poor recruitment speed and still catch the edge. Maybe just 50% of your awesome strength is required. Someone weaker would need higher recruitment.

Stronger fingers are never a bad thing.

[spiderman]

Age? Height? Weight?

[noahfor]

That makes perfect sense.

I'm 26, 5'8, and ~147.

[spiderman]

I'm 26, 5'8, and ~147.

I don't think you need to loose any weight before adding general barbell training. If you are going to wait however then maybe a few sets of pushups and some abs work after climbing would be a good idea.

If you are prone to putting on leg muscle easily you may want to be careful with squat and deadlift work/volume. Don't know what to say about that as I don't have that "problem". Stick legs.

[spiderman]

With barbell strength training, you are lifting the maximum of your physical ability for a brief few seconds. Trying to push so hard that it disrupts homeostasis just from a few seconds of activity.

That sounds exactly like bouldering. An attempt on a hard boulder problem can be as long as just 1 second and up to about 45 seconds. I'd guess 15 seconds is about average.


Climbing is completely different. The challenge is not so systemic and maximal. It is medium intensity repetitive strain on your fingers & forearms for an hour or so.

Maybe some very long roped climb would take an hour or so but even that would be uncommon. Boulder problems are only 6 to 15 feet long and usually take less than a minute to climb.

[noahfor]

I don't think you need to loose any weight before adding general barbell training. If you are going to wait however then maybe a few sets of pushups and some abs work after climbing would be a good idea.

If you are prone to putting on leg muscle easily you may want to be careful with squat and deadlift work/volume. Don't know what to say about that as I don't have that "problem". Stick legs.

Well, I'm coming from a barbell background, so I doubt I'll develop any muscular imbalances in the short amount of time that it will take to lose the rest of the body fat I have (or that I can lose easily), which really isn't that much. The reason I don't want to lift while dieting is just that it's harder to recover on a caloric deficit. I'm already feeling a little worn down.

Where do you climb mostly?

[spiderman]

Where do you climb mostly?

I've spent a lot of time in Squamish. Also a reasonable amount of time in the western USA. Mostly Bishop and Hueco.

[noahfor]

Cool. I guess those are like THE places to be. I've only been to Cooper's Rock, WV, but it's pretty nice there, not that I have anything to compare it to, obviously. My girlfriend and I are thinking about taking a trip to Chattanooga sometime this winter though.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

I've spent a lot of time in Squamish. Also a reasonable amount of time in the western USA. Mostly Bishop and Hueco.

You in the NW somewhere?

[spiderman]

You in the NW somewhere?

SW Canada.

[noahfor]

Is there anything I can do to help my skin heal faster or build better callouses? I'm not climbing any more frequently than every other day, but it seems like my skin just can't keep up, especially outdoors. My skin wears out before I'm even tired. I've stopped trying dynos, where I could miss the hold and scrape my hands, but still.

[spiderman]

Is there anything I can do to help my skin heal faster or build better callouses? I'm not climbing any more frequently than every other day, but it seems like my skin just can't keep up, especially outdoors. My skin wears out before I'm even tired. I've stopped trying dynos, where I could miss the hold and scrape my hands, but still.

Bitching about skin already, eh? Welcome to bouldering.

You don't really want big calouses. They get caught and the whole thick strong patch of skin will rip off. Flappers. I have to sand my skin (not the tips but the second and third pads down the fingers) when climbing indoors because the callouses get too thick and rip or crack.

Depending on rock type, sometimes skin is what limits the length of a session and some days are just meant for growing skin.

[Ian Kovtunovich]

SW Canada.

Ah, straight outta Squampton! I still haven't been up there, although, living in Portland, I'm usually trying to escape the wet weather, and every time I see pics of Squamish, it looks mossy and damp like everything around here, and all I want is some high-desert dryness. Some of the limestone up there looks pretty tight, though. You climb routes much?

[spiderman]

Some of the limestone up there looks pretty tight, though. You climb routes much?

Almost never. Maybe 2 times per year on average in the past 10 years and usually some easy multi-pitch trad route.

[Bazarov]

I had my first bouldering experience (first climbing experience, really) a few weeks ago at a local indoor climbing facility. I knew grip and finger strength would be important, but damn it was tough. Everything between my elbows and fingertips was sore the next day. I went with a few friends and they kept telling me to use my legs more, but for some reason I insisted on just pulling with my arms. I burnt out (holding on to just about anything was next to impossible) in less than an hour.

[spiderman]

What is the climbing equivalent of 3 sets of 5?In the gym for about 2 hours without sitting around reading magazines. I think you want to get on the wall every five or six minutes if you are trying hard on something

Just to get more of an idea of how bouldering workouts might equate to various weight workouts, I did an experiment last week in preparation for bouldering on the Texas Method. Unfortunately I've never been on the Texas Method for weights as I'm a novice and so my comparison is based on descriptions I've been reading about how intimating and taxing the volume day of the Texas Method for weights is.

My home climbing wall is 45 degrees overhanging and 15.5 feet long. I choose five problems that are moderate for me. I think they are all about V4 to V5. I already knew the problems well and very rarely would fall on one of these if I just wanted to do the problem once. They are 6, 6, 5, 7, and 6 moves. I tried to do five circuits of these five problems starting a problem at 3 minute intervals. (That is climbing for about 15 seconds and then resting for 2 minutes and 45 seconds.) As I tired, if I missed a problem then I would do a retry and if I missed that I would move on. With no misses, the five circuits would take 1 hour and 15 minutes. I hadn't climbed this much volume (probably about 100-120 points) in a long time as I've been nursing a bad finger that is almost fine now after 6 months. I rarely would climb this much volume regardless of injury or not.

Half hour easy warm up.

Circuit 1 was fine.

Circuit 2 was fine but I could feel my skin heating up and started cooling my skin on metal weight plates which really worked.

Circuit 3 was fine but was starting to want longer rests (but didn't take them.)

Circuit 4 was fine but I started getting shaky on the last problem.

Circuit 5 was hard. All the problems were hard. I got problem 2 on retry. Missed retries for problems 3 and 5. I didn't have either the explosive power to initiate dynos or the contact strength to catch them on these problems. Elbows were positioned way out (i.e. chicken wing) on problem 5 indicating I was tired.

I was totally fried after all of this. Pumped forearms which is not common for me as I like to rest and feel fresh. The whole workout took just under 2 hours including the warmup.

I'm also doing a light SS-like program after each bouldering session including 3x5 lightly weighted pullups/chinups.

It took me about a week, including two light climbing sessions, to recover from this workout. I could not have done a bouldering Texas Method Friday just four days after this Texas Method Monday volume workout. I'm hoping part of the reason is just because I haven't done this volume for a long time and that next time around I could do the Friday only four days later. I did do what would probably be the Friday seven days later and climbed the best I've climbed indoors in a long, long time. And then two days later did another Friday and climbed the best I've climbed outdoors in a long, long time.

I will say the circuit of 5 problems done 5 times is intimidating and I think will probably be the right amount of work to recover from in one week now that I've done it once. So it seems this 5x5 bouldering workout might be about equivalent to a 5x5 weights workout.

Next week I'll start Texas Method bouldering properly.

[noahfor]

That's pretty interesting. What's most interesting to me is that you're using actual climbing as the stimulus. I would have thought that after so long bouldering, you'd be so adapted that climbing alone wouldn't be enough of a stress, and you'd need a more focused hangboard or campus board routine. Have you read Practical Programming?

Before getting into climbing, I was involved in strength training for a couple years, and the very lowest levels of competitive power lifting. My favorite part was finding and designing routines that were going to take my strength to the next level, like they were some magic or scientific rituals or something. I absolutely fell in love with Practical Programming. So, even though I know that as a relative novice, I should not be training, and instead just climbing, I can't help but at least think about what kinds of training program I want to implement in the future, and how I am going to be able to apply the ideas from Practical Programming to climbing.

I know I'm going to start with some sort of linear workout to workout routine like Starting Strength, but coincidentally what I've most been thinking about is how to build a Texas Method for bouldering.

How do you plan on increasing the intensity on volume days?

What are you going to use for the intensity stimulus?

***

One training idea I've had is for building explosive power on pull ups. It's like a campus board, but it's just two pull up bars, one on top of the other, mounted as far away from each other as your reach will allow. Trying to grab the top bar provides the impetus for being as explosive as possible, just like a campus board. But, these can be weighted without worrying about finger injury, since a bar is so easy to hold on to. I don't know if that kind of power is even necessary in climbing. Just a thought.

[spiderman]

That's pretty interesting. What's most interesting to me is that you're using actual climbing as the stimulus.

I'm curious why you seem to find that surprising. A powerlifter using the Texas Method for gaining strength uses the same moves that are in the competition: squat, deadlift, bench press. It seemed to make sense to me to boulder in order to get better at bouldering at least for the SPP part of my training. (The cross-training with weights being the GPP part.)


I would have thought that after so long bouldering, you'd be so adapted that climbing alone wouldn't be enough of a stress

How could that ever be the case? There is always a harder boulder problem available. Every boulderer that tries hard is tired at the end of a session.


Have you read Practical Programming?

I have it and I've read a lot of it especially the novice, intermediate and advanced chapters at the end. Great book especially if the programs work.


So, even though I know that as a relative novice, I should not be training, and instead just climbing, I can't help but at least think about what kinds of training program I want to implement in the future, and how I am going to be able to apply the ideas from Practical Programming to climbing.

That is probably healthy. I've been thinking about intermediate programs for both bouldering and strength training even though I'm a novice in strength training. Thinking about both seems to help me plan Texas Method for the bouldering portion of my training.


How do you plan on increasing the intensity on volume days?

Switch out the easiest of the the five problems for a different problem that is slightly harder.

Playing with the rest periods would also help. With harder problems I'd need longer rests. Shortening rests with the same problems would make the workout harder (but less than 3 minute intervals would seem more like a power endurance workout rather than just a power workout. Even 3 minute intervals involved a pump indicating power endurance training.) Same problems and rest with a weight vest would work too.


What are you going to use for the intensity stimulus?

That is more tricky. I don't want to just "train" three days per week. Climbing is a heavily practice-dependent sport. I want at least one day a week to work on projects and hopefully send them. So the Texas Method Friday is going to be projects and harder problems: V8 and up. I doubt I can demonstrate progress each week as it is not as easy to demonstrate progress in bouldering as it is in powerlifting. I can't increase the difficulty of a problem by V0.1 grades or find another problem just a hair harder. I suppose I could wear a weight vest and try to do the same problem but that doesn't even seem like fun.

***

I'm also thinking that olympic weightlifting training programs might be better suited for adaption to bouldering than powerlifting programs. Olympic weightlifts are multiple phases (e.g. clean and jerk) and a lot of balance and coordination which is closer to a multi move boulder problem. Also the Olympic weightlifting moves generally seem to be practiced in sets of 3 because technique plays a bigger role than in powerlifting training and being tired isn't a good idea when practicing the O-lifts. That makes Olympic weightlifting closer to bouldering as well. I'm not talking about doing O-lifts as training for bouldering but rather adapting an O-lifting program to bouldering might be good. Just a thought.


One training idea I've had is for building explosive power on pull ups. It's like a campus board, but it's just two pull up bars, one on top of the other, mounted as far away from each other as your reach will allow. Trying to grab the top bar provides the impetus for being as explosive as possible, just like a campus board. But, these can be weighted without worrying about finger injury, since a bar is so easy to hold on to. I don't know if that kind of power is even necessary in climbing. Just a thought.

That is like a Bachar ladder (Google it.) Infamous for inflamed elbows. Probably a great tool used in low volume but climbers are not full of self restraint.

[noahfor]

A powerlifter uses the squat in the Texas Method, but so does any athlete trying to build "leg" strength. The ability to execute the squat is based almost entirely in strength, so it makes sense to use the squat as a strength training tool, in a strength training routine, such as the Texas Method.

Bouldering, while requiring the use of strength, isn't as pure an expression of strength as the squat. It takes a lot of core strength, but would an athlete who wanted to develop core strength use bouldering as a means of doing so?

Football requires the use of strength, but would you use football as the training stimulus in the Texas method? For completely untrained sedentary individuals, just playing football would build strength, but eventually it just wouldn't be enough.

I think bouldering is somewhere between football and the squat. Is it close enough to the squat that it will work? I don't know. But, that's why I thought what I thought.

It's Dosage Volume 5, where Daniel Woods is trying "Jade" V15, presumably one of the hardest climbs he's ever done. It's night, so I'm assuming he's been climbing for a while, and then he says "I feel so bad right now. I might have only one more go." He then he proceeds to send the climb. At that point, he's climbing at his maximum level, but he couldn't possibly be exerting maximum strength under those conditions. At least, I don't think he could be. Could he? It would be like setting the world record in the deadlift after trying all day to do it, and only completing it on the 30th try or something. So, if the hardest problem he can do doesn't require maximum expression of strength, would it be suitable for training maximum strength? In that same movie, there is a part where, after trying a problem he's been trying for days over and over again, Dave Graham finally sends it, and says "one of the last literal tries." I've also seen people try a climb over and over in rapid succession, one try after another, with no rest in between, and then finally send it. So, there's gotta be a lot more going on than just strength. And, my point isn't just that there's more to it than strength, but that a person can climb the hardest stuff they can climb, even when they can't possibly be capable of applying maximal strength.

Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that the Texas Method is a program designed to increase strength and power, not a program to increase sports performance. It shouldn't be thought of as a way to get better at something, only a way to get stronger at something. Obviously, the ultimate goal is to increase sports performance, but the Texas Method can only do that by increasing strength and power. It's specifically tailored to the way the body responds to training for strength and power. You wouldn't use it to train for endurance because the body responds differently to endurance training.

Also, I'm just speaking in this factual authoritative manner for the sake of conversation. I'm really not certain about anything, and was myself trying to decide between using climbing as the main stimulus or some mix of climbing, hang board, core, and power pull-ups type thing.

I like the idea about using the olympic routine since it's more of a skill based sport. Another thing that might be worth looking into is strongman training.

[spiderman]

Bouldering, while requiring the use of strength, isn't as pure an expression of strength as the squat. It takes a lot of core strength, but would an athlete who wanted to develop core strength use bouldering as a means of doing so?

No but that doesn't mean having a volume day, light day, and intense day per week is an inappropriate model for bouldering training.


Football requires the use of strength, but would you use football as the training stimulus in the Texas method?

The Texas Method is about varying volume and intensity parameters for three workouts of an activity over the course of the week. I don't know anything about training for football but I could imagine a volume workout on Wednesday, a skills day on Friday to rest up for the game on Sunday. This would match the strength training Texas Method quite well.



It's Dosage Volume 5, where Daniel Woods is trying "Jade" V15, presumably one of the hardest climbs he's ever done. It's night, so I'm assuming he's been climbing for a while, and then he says "I feel so bad right now. I might have only one more go." He then he proceeds to send the climb. At that point, he's climbing at his maximum level, but he couldn't possibly be exerting maximum strength under those conditions. At least, I don't think he could be. Could he? It would be like setting the world record in the deadlift after trying all day to do it, and only completing it on the 30th try or something. So, if the hardest problem he can do doesn't require maximum expression of strength, would it be suitable for training maximum strength? In that same movie, there is a part where, after trying a problem he's been trying for days over and over again, Dave Graham finally sends it, and says "one of the last literal tries." I've also seen people try a climb over and over in rapid succession, one try after another, with no rest in between, and then finally send it. So, there's gotta be a lot more going on than just strength. And, my point isn't just that there's more to it than strength, but that a person can climb the hardest stuff they can climb, even when they can't possibly be capable of applying maximal strength.

As far as I can remember, I've never sent a boulder problem that was hard for me because it required strength after even a few tries. I have sent those problems the next day on my first or second try. You'll hear boulderers saying "I need to come back fresh." So I'd guess Daniel figured out some beta or just pulled out some freak genetics to send after many tries. That or he was climbing at night not because he'd been climbing all day but because conditions were better at night.


Also, I think it's important to keep in mind that the Texas Method is a program designed to increase strength and power, not a program to increase sports performance. It shouldn't be thought of as a way to get better at something, only a way to get stronger at something. Obviously, the ultimate goal is to increase sports performance, but the Texas Method can only do that by increasing strength and power. It's specifically tailored to the way the body responds to training for strength and power. You wouldn't use it to train for endurance because the body responds differently to endurance training.

I have a friend that is a competitive runner. I was explaining to him the Texas Method's three days and he said something like "Running is just like that. All sports are based on those three days each week." He said a 45 minute run at 10k pace, a light day and a shorter run at 5k pace would be a fundamental week for him and that lines up quite well with the Texas Method.

I think the main point of the Texas Method is that an intermediate is capable of creating an overload event that takes more than 48 hours to recover. Also the intermediate needs this level of stimulus to spur growth. So it seems like a principle that could be applied to any sport.


I'm really not certain about anything, and was myself trying to decide between using climbing as the main stimulus or some mix of climbing, hang board, core, and power pull-ups type thing.

I think the main stimulus for a climber to get better at climbing (both strength and skill) needs to be climbing. I know I can overload myself in a bouldering session enough that I cannot recover in 48 to 72 hours. I also cannot improve from session to session. I need some sort of periodized system. I'll see if the Texas Method works.

[noahfor]

Yeah, I guess I just found it surprising that climbing after so long could still create an overload event capable of spurring growth. But, obviously you've proven it can.

So, have you ever done any hangboard or campus board stuff? Did you find it beneficial at all?

[spiderman]

So, have you ever done any hangboard or campus board stuff? Did you find it beneficial at all?

I did some hangboard stuff a long time ago and got some elbow tendonitis after three weeks. I didn't really enjoy those workouts.

I had a campus board setup a long time ago and only used it a few times. I had quite a bit of pain all around the forearm muscles (perhaps the myofascial sheath).

I think I was not strong enough to be doing either of these activities when I was trying them. I should probably look into both again in a few months from now. The problem is these types of workouts are so similar to climbing that either they are done before climbing and spoil the climbing session or the hangboard/campus workout is done after climbing and cannot be done at maximum strength/power or actual climbing has to be skipped.

***

By the way, I did the 5x5 workout successfully on Tuesday even though it was 4 degC warmer. I felt quite good on Wednesday and today as opposed to feeling quite stiff for many days after last time. So I suppose I have adpted to that volume on that set of 5 problems. I'll be changing one or two of the problems for next Tuesday and see how that goes. Hopefully I can evolve a set of five problems where they keep me challenged but there aren't any stopper problems that spoil the idea of just completing the five circuits.

[noahfor]

Well, I'm definitely interested in seeing what you're doing and how it all works out.

What projects are you working on?

Also, do you ever take planned time off, or do periods of less intensity, just to recover, but not to heal an injury or anything?

[spiderman]

Well, I'm definitely interested in seeing what you're doing and how it all works out.

Today I just finished a proper one week bouldering Texas Method week and was able to demonstrate improvement today with a few sends. I'll see how the next few weeks go.


What projects are you working on?

I'm psyched on some obscure local problems.


Also, do you ever take planned time off, or do periods of less intensity, just to recover, but not to heal an injury or anything?

Not really planned but I'm sure I should have. Time off has always been forced by injury and there has been plenty of that. Sometimes my motivation has dipped for a couple months and I reduce intensity but even that was probably due to feeling over worked. I'm hoping to plan some rest but I don't know when. Climbing is way too addictive. I might deload every fourth week now. I don't think it is possible to avoid all injuries with planned rest but it would be nice to think a few could be avoided.

How are your climbing sessions going? Linear progression?

[noahfor]

Yeah, I've made pretty steady progress. I don't think there's been a day where I haven't gotten at least one move farther on something I was working on, except for two days last week, which prompted me to deload and build back up over the course of a week. Like you said, climbing is addictive, and it was exceedingly difficult to just go to the gym without getting on anything challenging, and also passing up a few outdoor trips. But, I went back to the gym tonight and sent some climb that was giving me trouble before. It was the first rest of more than one or two days that I've taken since starting this thread, and it really didn't make me feel all that refreshed or that much stronger.

[jerji]

I will say the circuit of 5 problems done 5 times is intimidating and I think will probably be the right amount of work to recover from in one week now that I've done it once. So it seems this 5x5 bouldering workout might be about equivalent to a 5x5 weights workout.
I have two friends both climbing at the V10 range who are doing this same sort of training on plastic. They only show up once or twice a week, do one big circuit of all the moderate~hard stuff and leave in less than an hour. It's kind of ridiculous to watch them. ;) Not exactly the climbing version of 5x5 but it has the same intensity/rest pattern you were describing.

Outside is all engines firing though, of course, unless it's a skin recovery day.