Clean Eating

[drewcarroll2]

I see a lot of people on here talk about food and what they eat and the quantities and I also see a correlation of increased fat content on the body composition side. I get that you HAVE TO EAT to gain mass and get stronger.

I am curious as to why more of you guys don't kill your nutrition like you do you lifting? Is it just because it is easier not to? That you aren't worried about body composition? I am just really curious about this, because I thought that you would get better gains and quality muscle if you feed your body "right" per say.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, shit, I wan't to get like Doug Young!!:cool:

[BrotherIron]

First, you are going to put on some bodyfat when you gain weight and train for strength that's just going to happen. Secondly, you don't have to be a fatty to lift heavy weights and have a poor body composition.

I suggest you try researching Carb Rotations if you want to stay relatively lean while gaining quality mass and increasing strength. This method is used by many SM (strongmen, powerlifters, and even some oly lifters).

I use this method and it works great for me. You don't have to adopt the thought process that you should eat your way through plateaus. That ideal is outdated and ridiculous.

If you would like to see an example of Carb Rotations I can post my diet which utilizes a High & Low Carb Day. I don't use a Medium Day and I also don't use a No Carb Day. I'm not a fan of the No Carb day.

[drewcarroll2]

Brother Iron,
This is what I have been doing for my diet.

Today I ate/ am going to eat
Meal 1: whey protien
Meal 2: 6 egg whites, one scoop whole oats, 2 tablespoons olive oil
Meal 3: Chicken breast and about 1 cup whole wheat pasta fresh spinach leaves
Meal 4: Apple and Protien
Meal 5: handful almonds
Meal 6: 2 small oranges
Meal 7: apple and almonds
Meal 8: 6 hard boiled egg whites
Meal 9: whey protien (pre workout)
Meal 10: cassein protien (post workout)

I spread these out over about 14-15 hours. What do you think? My workouts are burning on average of 650 cals+ and include 30 min of cardio before I lift.

I have been dropping body fat and getting a lot stronger, but at my deployed location I can't do real Starting Strength. I have been pretty successful with the way I am eating. I have dropped 36 pounds of fat since the 7th of May.

I am going to look into Carb Rotation. What is your body compostition like? I know you have to gain fat to get bigger but you also don't have to get fat to lift heavy weight. I want to be big when I grow up, but not fat. :)

[BrotherIron]

Well, I'm 6'2 260lbs and 15% bf so my body composition isn't to bad since I haven't done cardio for the past 6months. I'm actually going to be putting cardio back in and when I do I usually drop to around 12% bf. My weight will drop some but not to much.

One thing I see automatically that I would change is when you perform your cardio. Do it AFTER your training session. You NEED those glycogen stores when you train and after training you've depleted your stores so you'll burn fat quicker than when you do it before lifting. Also, when doing cardio first you deplete yourself and your training will suffer.

For you're diet I would need to know more about you. Are you a hardgainer, gain easily, are you carb sensitive or resistant, etc. I would also need to know your stats.

[ColoWayno]

Good stuff,
BrotherIron... I will read your diet info if you post it!

[drewcarroll2]

Well, I'm 6'2 260lbs and 15% bf so my body composition isn't to bad since I haven't done cardio for the past 6months. I'm actually going to be putting cardio back in and when I do I usually drop to around 12% bf. My weight will drop some but not to much.

One thing I see automatically that I would change is when you perform your cardio. Do it AFTER your training session. You NEED those glycogen stores when you train and after training you've depleted your stores so you'll burn fat quicker than when you do it before lifting. Also, when doing cardio first you deplete yourself and your training will suffer.

For you're diet I would need to know more about you. Are you a hardgainer, gain easily, are you carb sensitive or resistant, etc. I would also need to know your stats.

That sounds Awesome dude. I wish I could train to be taller as well. I am not sure what my BF% is.

I have been doing cardio first because I hate it and I love to lift and I feel really warm when I get done. I am afraid that if I wait to run then I won't do it. I will give it a shot though. I used to run after my workouts all the time but switched it up to see how I liked it.

I don't think I am a hardgainer but I do think I am carb sensitive. I am 5'11" and currently weigh in at 221lbs. Like I mentioned I have lost 36 pounds since 7 may and have been getting stronger.

I am looking for all the help I can get man. I have been fucking up because I thought I should cut carbs out before bed but I train at night and am in bed about 30 minutes after I get done working out. Thanks for the info. I am looking forward to more advice from you!

[Dastardly]

Meal 2: 6 egg whites, one scoop whole oats, 2 tablespoons olive oil


Why no Yolks?

[drewcarroll2]

I guess it is just carryover from the years my fitness knowledge has been bashed into the corporate ideal that egg yolks are bad for you. I hadn't even really thought about it honestly. Is there any advantage to eating them that I am missing? Like I said I am trying to cut fat and build muscle so this is kind of a razors edge I think.

Your the second person to ask me that. I never got an explanation from the other guy. Can you enlighten me?

[Dastardly]

Yolks are the most nutricious part of the egg. There is really no sound reason at all not to eat them, unless you just dont like the taste. In which case, fair enough.

[Rorschach]

Egg white is protein without fat, so if for some weird reason you want zero fat, then you can eat egg-whites to get protein.

However, yes, egg yolks are very nutritious and unless you're on a highly restrictive diet, you're really missing out by not eating the yolk.

The idea that egg yolks are bad for you stems from the cholesterol myth, which has ben proven over and over again to be crap. Eating egg yolks isn't going to give you a heart attack.

[drewcarroll2]

Thats awesome, thanks guys. Now at least I will get to eat more! I didn't think I liked how they tasted but it turns out that was an aversion from childhood. Cool.

[BrotherIron]

Remember you need some fat in your diet and not all fats are created equal. Fats are what help keep your natural testosterone levels high. Test is created from cholesterol. If you don't want to much fat in your diet, you can have 3 white for every yolk but if you're a hardgainer like me you can have every yolk.

[MazdaMatt]

All of my best lifting sessions have taken place immediately after a liter of milk and a double bacon cheeseburger. I have done a LOT of work over the past year to learn to gain weight smart. Most people would be impressed with my diet plan 8 months ago - BUT I have never made strength gains as fast as when I decided to try regular bacon cheeseburger eating.

It seems odd, but looking at my nutrition over the past year it looks like I've digressed from super-healthy to not-so-healthy, but my strength gains have never been better so I'm going to keep it up. I will chill out with the burgers when I"ve reached the end of linear progression because I want to drop a little fat off at that point.

[bob g]

Your the second person to ask me that. I never got an explanation from the other guy. Can you enlighten me?

Sorry, Drew, I haven't been on the forum in a couple days... You've received some excellent responses already. My $0.02, eggs are nature's perfect food, they taste good and they're cheap. By perfect food I mean that eggs are densely packed with vitamins, minerals, protein and good, really good fat. And they are 'real food': earth & sun > chicken > egg > you. If you have access to local, pastured eggs all the better. Don't listen to the unsupported drivel about cholesterol and how eggs will kill you in your tracks. BS. Cholesterol is a building block of all cell structures. You crank out a ton of it naturally every day. Neither dietery cholesterol or dietery fats (good ones) make anyone fat.

Now, off for about 5 scrambled eggs, spinach and some whole milk for the post workout snack.

[burnsco]

All of my best lifting sessions have taken place immediately after a liter of milk and a double bacon cheeseburger. I have done a LOT of work over the past year to learn to gain weight smart. Most people would be impressed with my diet plan 8 months ago - BUT I have never made strength gains as fast as when I decided to try regular bacon cheeseburger eating.

It seems odd, but looking at my nutrition over the past year it looks like I've digressed from super-healthy to not-so-healthy, but my strength gains have never been better so I'm going to keep it up. I will chill out with the burgers when I"ve reached the end of linear progression because I want to drop a little fat off at that point.

I'm with ya Matt. I eat exactly the same way. I eat at least 1 burger a day and eat tons of fast food. It makes it real easy to make gains in the gym but I'm starting to get so chubby that it's hard to tie my shoes!

[Ian Kovtunovich]

I'm with ya Matt. I eat exactly the same way. I eat at least 1 burger a day and eat tons of fast food. It makes it real easy to make gains in the gym but I'm starting to get so chubby that it's hard to tie my shoes!

I wonder if anyone with money to burn has done SS, eaten like it's their job, maxed out their progression, and then just had the fat liposuctioned off?

Now that I think about it, I do have a friend wrapping up his plastic surgery residency...

[MazdaMatt]

Don't get me wrong, I don't eat fast food ALL the time. Mostly just before and after workouts, and the day after if I really cranked out a hard PR. I'm all down with "healthy" eating in general, but burgers fuel recovery and lifting like nothing else.

[strengthstarter]

Why no Yolks?

I've run into the temptation to remove yolks from my egg because when I am eating my normal paleo diet (normal in the sense of this is what I do when I am not slacking off), I get around 50-60% of my calories from fat, and because I enjoy cooking with some oil, or putting some on my salads/vegetables/etc. Even more fat if I am focused on cutting carbs down super low <10%. This is because most natural protein sources come bundled with fat. So sometimes it is convenient to cut out a few yolks and up the protein content of the eggs I'm eating, if I have fat from another source already in the meal.

For example, sometimes I'll do an egg white omelette with various stuff inside, topped with sliced avocado. If you beat the shit out of the egg whites, the texture is quite good and I sometimes just welcome something different. Also, I can use the yolks to make mayonnaise.

[forgeforth]

The only real criteria I follow for 'clean eating' is staying away from junk food, and by junk food I mean candy and sweets. I will only have sweets if they're presented in front of me in trays. I eat poptarts/chocolate bars after my workout to restore my available glycogen stores.

I don't really keep track of animal fat or protein - I'll just take what I can. If you're training properly you should be exhausted by the end of your workout. If you create the demand, you can supply your body with lots of food. I enjoy steak, cheeseburgers, chicken, etc. I tend to make lots of sandwiches and eat lots of carbs.

One good way of keeping yourself in check is a good 15-20 minutes of cardio after your lifting session. Your glycogen stores and BBAAs are depleted and your cardio training will be targetting fat more effectively.

Not all weight gain can be dichotomized as simply muscle or fat. Lots of other factors as well. When you want to lift for fat loss in particular, you just clean up your diet around the edges and keep in mind when you intake your carbs. In short, burn more calories than you consume. Then again, focusing purely on strength training allows me to purge a lot of fat while putting on lean mass.

[Dastardly]

when I am eating my normal paleo diet

Hey, your diet strategy sounds just like this guy:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lX30igOowdw/SkFSJo4TMJI/AAAAAAAAAFE/u1PqWwIeLbU/s400/Neanderthal_2D_src.jpg

Carefully calculated fat percentages, and avoiding nutricious egg yolks when lucky enough to find an egg. He saves it up to make mayonaise too, what a coincidence!

[Carnivroar]

Egg whites are shit.

[ColoWayno]

My 2 cents:
If you're worried about heart disease or athero I would do all of these things and a lot more before getting rid of egg yokes:

1) Lift a lot
2) Have fun a lot
3) Eat higher quality food, mostly meat and veggies (lots of veggies).
4) Take fish oil supplements
5) Cut simple carbs to a minimum
6) Avoid heavily processed food
7) Get more sleep
8) Learn to manage stress and anger
9) Learn deep breathing
10) Eat dark chocolate several times a week
11) Drink red wine moderately several times a week.

An occasional 16 oz curling session at the local pub as part of #2 takes precedence over #5. You can design your own set and rep scheme for that.

[drewcarroll2]

My 2 cents:
If you're worried about heart disease or athero I would do all of these things and a lot more before getting rid of egg yokes:

1) Lift a lot
2) Have fun a lot
3) Eat higher quality food, mostly meat and veggies (lots of veggies).
4) Take fish oil supplements
5) Cut simple carbs to a minimum
6) Avoid heavily processed food
7) Get more sleep
8) Learn to manage stress and anger
9) Learn deep breathing
10) Eat dark chocolate several times a week
11) Drink red wine moderately several times a week.

An occasional 16 oz curling session at the local pub as part of #2 takes precedence over #5. You can design your own set and rep scheme for that.

While we know that I'm in the military, I like to constantly look forward to the day that I am honorably discharged. So, in the spirit of looking to my civilian future, could marijuana be incorporated into #2, 3, 7, 8, and 9?

Does anybody have any adverse opinions on toking while lifting? Because when I am a civilian I am going to quit drinking and trade up.

[ColoWayno]

While we know that I'm in the military, I like to constantly look forward to the day that I am honorably discharged. So, in the spirit of looking to my civilian future, could marijuana be incorporated into #2, 3, 7, 8, and 9?

Does anybody have any adverse opinions on toking while lifting? Because when I am a civilian I am going to quit drinking and trade up.

There's a thread on Rips forum where it gets discussed. Somewhere it gets suggested that it may increase appetite in a way conducive to gains in the weight room. It's a little too close to the word lifting in your sentence though. I wouldn't toke between sets or anything.
Also, if you ever want a clearance job the subject might come up.

[Sami]

My 2 cents:
If you're worried about heart disease or athero I would do all of these things and a lot more before getting rid of egg yokes:

1) Lift a lot
2) Have fun a lot
3) Eat higher quality food, mostly meat and veggies (lots of veggies).
4) Take fish oil supplements
5) Cut simple carbs to a minimum
6) Avoid heavily processed food
7) Get more sleep
8) Learn to manage stress and anger
9) Learn deep breathing
10) Eat dark chocolate several times a week
11) Drink red wine moderately several times a week.

An occasional 16 oz curling session at the local pub as part of #2 takes precedence over #5. You can design your own set and rep scheme for that.

Agree completely. If I had to put "remove egg yolks" somewhere on a list, it'd probably be after "Don't think about heart disease" in order of importance.

[Carnivroar]

Cholesterol and saturated fats don't cause heart disease. I thought people here would know that already.

[Sami]

Cholesterol and saturated fats don't cause heart disease. I thought people here would know that already.

I think most do. The remaining few still need to be educated.

[strengthstarter]

Hey, your diet strategy sounds just like this guy:

Carefully calculated fat percentages, and avoiding nutricious egg yolks when lucky enough to find an egg. He saves it up to make mayonaise too, what a coincidence!

I was going to respond to this, but I really don't have the energy anymore, after repeating and repeating the same points over and over again that are fairly common sensical and available from a fairly cursory reading of any paleo nutrition site.

[MazdaMatt]

I don't think that Dast was looking for an intelligent conversation here. Most likely just summarily dismissing this diet fad as generally rediculous. I personally hold no specific opinion as I have not spent the time to read about it, but I generally find diet fads to be rediculous anyway.

[drewcarroll2]

You guys have me all wrong. My diet is the way it is because I don't know anything other than generic nutrition information and commercial "standards". That is why I am asking for help.

I eat the hell out of those damn egg yolks now though, they are fucking delicious, lol!

I also have no Idea how to carefully calculate anything other than protein and carbs and fat in grams. No clue how to get the percentages or how many calories per gram of protein or anything like that.

Thank you all for your guys' help. It is greatly appreciated.

[MazdaMatt]

To answer you original question - why don't we seem to care much about composition and just try to gorge on food... My take, by observation of a close friend who is doing the opposite with great success is that you are walking a knife-edge when you're trying to gain strength at the same pace as a burger-gorger while maintaining minimal bodyfat gains. If you slip up, you will fall short on recovery ability. If you eat a fucking burger, you won't.

Besides, my personal take on this is quite simple. If I can put forth the dedication to gain 50lbs in a year (it came in spurts, so this can be acheived much faster) then I can easily find the dedication to drop the fat away when I have the power to squat 300+ for sets. So I take the less complicated road of burgers and milk, get strong, then tidy up the diet and lose the fat while accepting less strength progression.

edit - ps: 1g protein or 1g carb = 5cal, 1g fat = 9cal. 1 burger = awesome.

[drewcarroll2]

Thanks Matt. You are quite the help sir. I get where you are coming from completely on the eating thing. I am trying to work on composition right now because I am deployed and don't have access to a facility to do the program as it should be done. But when I get back in November to my home base it is game fucking on. Eating, lifting, and gaining is the name of the game. Right now I am trying to drop the fat like you mentioned as well as get a little bit stronger.

[MazdaMatt]

Glad I could help. It has been my personal experience that being lean sucks and having some fat is great. Except for the heat. Fuck me it is hot and uncomfortable when you're not lean. I was approx 6 percent fat when i started lifting and I'm probably nearer 17 now. It feels great.

[drewcarroll2]

Your telling me! When I got to Bahrain 3 months and 50 pounds ago I thought I was going to pass the hell out it was so hot and humid at 0200hrs. Now I am good in the heat, and it gets to like 130 dude, it is hot as balls here, I am going to freeze my ass of when I go back to Germany in Nov.

[Patrick]

Hrm, I'm fairly certain it's 4 cal/g for carbs and protein. Maybe there's been a re-evaluation I am not hip to.

Aside from that, my love in life is volleyball so my weight cycles based on season -- I gain weight when it's not summer and I'm lifting and shed a ton of it (10-20 lbs!) between May and September when I'm playing all the time. At the beginning of vball season, I am so friggin uncomfortable with the heat that I can't manage it... water on the head, frozen towels around the neck, etc. By the end of the summer, when I'm down to single digit BF numbers, I can sun myself on a hot rock for a few hours and then run sprints at breakneck pace under a heat lamp and not really feel it.

But eating like a fat guy... it's so fucking fun.