Ancestral Strength

[VikingMan]

Greetings all. I'm liking this forum. Provides a much needed bastion against the stupidity and rampant idiocy of BB.com. So I figured I'd start keeping my journal here as well as on the dark side. ;)

A brief training history.


I did lots of chins and pushups as a teenager. I've always been a pretty big guy. Right out of highschool I weighed in at 190-200 pounds with probably 10-12 % BF. My legs have pretty much always been really thick.

I lifted weights on and off over the years, but I would always have lots of joint pain to contend with. Elbows and shoulders always bothered me. But, around 2.5 years ago I decided that I would make this a way of life, and I've been lifting ever since.

I started with mostly some upper body stuff, twice a week frequency. I would do steady state cardio for my lower body. Best lift at that point was a dumbbell bench of 3X10X100's.

Then around fall of 2005 I started doing deads and squats.

Then, I started reading a lot on BB.com and became familiar with the writings of Madcow. Started the Single Factor 5X5 in January of 2006. Ran that for 5 months getting to 5X300 on bench, 5X350 on squat, and 5X405 on dead.

Shortly after that I started a WSB influenced upper lower. Bench stalled like a big dog (and has been really ever since). But squats got to 425 for a single and deadlift 525 for a single. By this point I had been deadlifting for about a year. I did however bench 315 for 3 reps at this point though.

Shortly after this I started the Coan & Phillipi deadlift program. Ran that for 4 weeks when I rounded on the second rep of a 510LB pull. Back has not been the same since. I've never had any accute pain. More general feelings of weakness and tightness.

My stuff has been kind of jumbled up ever since. I'm using an upper lower at the moment. Lower body work is a lot of conditioning work, plus back rehab stuff. Still hoping to be able to pull and squat heavy again one day, but it won't kill me if I can't. I do some barbell complexes and very light sumo deads to provide my back some stimulus and reason to stay reasonably strong.

My current long term goals are a 4 plate bench and a good 15 body weight chins and getting my back back into heavy shape.

At my heaviest I was 275. I've been slowly recomping over the past 6 months. Down to 255 (ish). Pretty happy about that.

Due to the lack of good structure to my program over the last 6 months, bench strength is off it's high. My current 3RM is around 290-295. Though I did bench 350 for a single 8-10 weeks ago. I've got a higher than normal distribution of fast twitch fibers, I believe. Just before I benched 350, I benched 315 for a double and failed the third rep.

One common theme of my progress is that early in my lifting experience I used LOTS of dumbbells and progressed rapidly. Then, when I started the SF 5X5, I stopped using dumbbells for any length of time till the present. It was all barbell work for benching, workload and intensity. So, I recently decided to go back to using heavy dumbbells for the majority of my pressing work.

[VikingMan]

Rough outline for my CURRENT program looks something like this. (though tinkering is pretty common).

Wednesday: Upper Body Repetition/Dynamic Effort (Workload Day)
Flat Dumbbell Bench Press ( 2-3 warmups + 3-5 work sets + 1 burn )
Chins Ladders
Seated Barbell Military Press
Hang Cleans
Pushups
Shoulder/Elbow Prehab

(every third week, do this
DE Bench, 8X3
Chins Ladders
Dumbbell Bench
Hang Cleans
Seated Barbell Military)

Thursday: Conditioning

Friday: Lower Body
Barbell Complex
1 Arm Barbell Curls
Calf Raises
Hypers 3X20

Saturday: Off

Sunday: Upper Body Max Effort (Intensity Day)
Bench Press Max Effort
Chins Max reps day
Low Incline Dumbbell 3-4X6-10
Cable Rows 4X10
Shoulder/Elbow Prehab

Monday: Conditioning

Tuesday: Off

Conditioning Choices
Sled Dragging
Barbell Complex (hang clean to a front squat to a push press)
Pushups
Supine Rows
Grip Work

ME Bench Variants
Close Grip Bench
Competition Grip Bench
1-2 Board Press

Also, from time to time I'll drop one of the conditioning days if I need more recovery.

[VikingMan]

Last nights workout...

Conditioning Workout, 8/13/2007

Weight: 256
Workout Time: 45 minutes

1. Sled Dragging
100LB sled X 18 minutes (1 breather)

2. Pushups
20 X BW
20 X BW
20 X BW
alternated with
3. Supine Rows
12 X BW
12 X BW
12 X BW

4. Sumo Deadlifts :eek:
10 X 133
10 X 133
10 X 133

+ SMR & stretching

Comments
Excellent workout tonight.

I've been thinking for a while that some of my lower back discomfort might be due to just pain weakness. So, I'm toying with the idea of using something core intensive, but for very light weight and high reps. Thus, some deads tonight. Also, I'm thinking the SMR, which I have still been doing, will probably be more effective if I've got a lower back pump going when I do it.

So there you have it.

VM

[Big Mike]

Glad to see you here! This is Pillager from BB.com.

[Matt]

One thing I have found to help with the shoulder/elbow/joint stuff is to do the prehab/warmup stuff before the lifting. Get everything good and warm, including using liniments, wrap it and it helps tremendously.

good luck

[VikingMan]

Glad to see you here! This is Pillager from BB.com.
Hey man. Good to be here. :)


One thing I have found to help with the shoulder/elbow/joint stuff is to do the prehab/warmup stuff before the lifting. Get everything good and warm, including using liniments, wrap it and it helps tremendously.

good luck
You know, I should have mentioned, I've pretty much sorted the joint pain issues. I used to do some high rep curls and extensions before benching. They haven't been needed in quite some time. Couple reasons for that. I started doing the prehab work, and the compounded affect of that has been very positive. I drink more water now, hydration is ALWAYS a good idea for dealing with joint pain. I took Cissus RX for a while last fall. Damn good stuff for dealing with joint pain. Actually helps strengthen connective tissue, or at least that's what it MUST be doing, cause the incedents of joint pain since I did the Cissus for a while has been probably 2-3% of what is was.

I am still dealing with some small wrist and elbow quirkyness, but it never really hurts WHILE I'm lifting. Actually lifting usually makes any pain go away. My thought on the source of that is some imbalance in my forearm strength, and so I recently started doing more grip work, including some finger extension work.

[VikingMan]

So, my goals... formal, and all written up

Long Term
4 plate raw bench
15 BW chins
245LB BW
Get my back into heavy squatting and deadlifting shape

Short Term
get back to a 3 plate for reps bench
8 BW chins
253LB BW
Put together a home made reverse hyper (for my back)

[Misanthrope]

Oh, I suppose I could check in here and there. :)

[VikingMan]

Oh, I suppose I could check in here and there. :)
Yeah, you won't even have to think of any new comments, just post the same thing in both places. :D

[Serpens Aeon]

I've been thinking for a while that some of my lower back discomfort might be due to just pain weakness. So, I'm toying with the idea of using something core intensive, but for very light weight and high reps. Thus, some deads tonight. Also, I'm thinking the SMR, which I have still been doing, will probably be more effective if I've got a lower back pump going when I do it.


I've read this too. Namely, that if your goal is to ameliorate lower-back pain, then training the abdominals and lumbar region/posterior chain with more work capacity/endurance-oriented resistance training is the way to go. I'll be giving this a go too with my pulling, I think. I do know that hyperextensions done more for the stretch, and really feeling the static contraction at the top seem to have made a noticeable difference even if after one workout along with having had to stabilize the region for rowing. Granted, I've been sedentary, but I'm sure you'd see a similar result from the same principle.

Oh right, subscribed. This journal will almost certainly be awesome.

[VikingMan]

I've read this too. Namely, that if your goal is to ameliorate lower-back pain, then training the abdominals and lumbar region/posterior chain with more work capacity/endurance-oriented resistance training is the way to go. I'll be giving this a go too with my pulling, I think.
Hmmm. Guess I choose the right path then. High rep deads. :eek: The barbell complexes I've been doing are done along the same lines. Very low rest times, light weights, conditioning type work. Next I need to put together some home made kettlebells. I've heard countless good things about that kind of work as well.

[Lifting N Tx]

I'm glad that you took the plunge here.

Much as I tend to think distastefully of high rep deadlifts, high rep stuff could be just what the doctor ordered. Bryan Haycock at HST always advocated lactic acid from high reps as good for joints and tendons. Maybe he was on to something.

[r_graz]

Much as I tend to think distastefully of high rep deadlifts, high rep stuff could be just what the doctor ordered. Bryan Haycock at HST always advocated lactic acid from high reps as good for joints and tendons. Maybe he was on to something.
In terms of conditioning, nothing gets my heart going like a high rep set of deads after my regular deads. Moreso than higher rep squats, I'd say.

[Kyle]

Good journal bro.

Kyle

[Heisman]

After reading this journal I'm going to start doing some higher rep sets at the end of whatever I'm doing. No real reason for me not to do it. Congrats on dealing with your own joint issues; I'm going to start paying more attention to my own joints and see what I can do to keep problems from developing.

[VikingMan]

I'm glad that you took the plunge here.

Much as I tend to think distastefully of high rep deadlifts, high rep stuff could be just what the doctor ordered. Bryan Haycock at HST always advocated lactic acid from high reps as good for joints and tendons. Maybe he was on to something.
Yeah, I've heard before that lactic acid is good for joints. Anyone know if there's any science behind it? Though, honestly, the only real reason I'm doing it is because I suspect that at least some of my lower back discomfort at present is due to it not being worked.


In terms of conditioning, nothing gets my heart going like a high rep set of deads after my regular deads. Moreso than higher rep squats, I'd say.
Yeah, just those stupid 3 sets with 1 plate got my heart going pretty good. And my freakin legs were a little sore today. WTF?? I suppose that happens when I'm not doing much real leg work.

[VikingMan]

Good journal bro.

Kyle
Thanks Kyle.


After reading this journal I'm going to start doing some higher rep sets at the end of whatever I'm doing. No real reason for me not to do it. Congrats on dealing with your own joint issues; I'm going to start paying more attention to my own joints and see what I can do to keep problems from developing.
High rep "stuff" has been a mainstay for me in keeping joint issues at bay.

[VikingMan]

Upper, Workload/Hypertrophy, 8/15/2007

Weight: 257
Workout Time: 105 minutes

1. Flat Dumbbell Bench Press
10 X 60's
6 X 75's
6 X 95's

6 X 115's
6 X 120's
8 X 115's
8 X 115's
13 X 100's

2. Chins
10 X Rack
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
8 X Rack

3. Seated Barbell Military Press
10 X Bar
5 X 135
3 X 155
1 X 185

4 X 200
5 X 185
6 X 155

4. Cybex Rear Delt/Row
12 X 13 (on the stack, 20LBS each)
12 X 15
12 X 16
alternated with
5. Pushups
12 X BW + 25
12 X BW + 35
12 X BW + 25

6. Situps
12 X BW + 22
12 X BW + 22
12 X BW + 22

7. Supermans

8. Bridges

9. Sledge Hammer Levering Work

Comments
Decent tonight.

Dumbbell bench was feeling a bit taxing on my shoulders. Like, I think I need to be tucking my elbows a bit more and contracting my upper back more, like I was doing a regular bench. It seems difficult to do because you have to control the dumbbells, lay down, get them in position, and do it all in the most energy efficient way. And then, on top of that, gotta consider the proper form issues. Need to work on it. I thought I might have more with the 120's, and I think I would have, except my form issues were making that set feel not so great.

On the military pressing, I think things are actually going backwards here. I believe I've been pushing at too high an intensity. So I'm going to back off the weight a bit and start doing the add a rep to a lighter set thing, till I can up the weight 5-10 pounds and then drop reps a little and go again.

Very happy with the chin ladders.

Got lots of good rehab/prehab work in at the end.

VM

[Andrew Smith]

That's some strong pressing man. I like it.

[r_graz]

I come in here to see numbers bigger than my mind can grasp. Not disappointed so far :cool:

Nice pressing Vike.

[Lifting N Tx]

Strong workout, VikingMan.

I know that you want to emphasize the dumbbell work for bench, but don't recall exactly how it compares to what you were doing before.

Any chance that what you're noticing about your military pressing is due mostly to greater fatigue from the heavy dumbbell work, rather than the intensity in the military pressing itself?

[VikingMan]

That's some strong pressing man. I like it.
Thanks.


I come in here to see numbers bigger than my mind can grasp. Not disappointed so far :cool:

Nice pressing Vike.
lol

Thanks graz. I'm not disappointed either. Dumbbell bench is progressing nicely.

[VikingMan]

Strong workout, VikingMan.

I know that you want to emphasize the dumbbell work for bench, but don't recall exactly how it compares to what you were doing before.
The structure is largely the same as before. Before I was simply using barbell work for workload/volume. It's been that way for roughly 18 months, and guess who has lacked progress for over a year of that 18 months? ;) I'm pretty sure that what I actually need at this point, especially as a raw lifter, is a stronger chest. So DBs are the focus on volume workload days. Except for every 3rd week, where I plan on doing some DE work.


Any chance that what you're noticing about your military pressing is due mostly to greater fatigue from the heavy dumbbell work, rather than the intensity in the military pressing itself?
I'm been doing seated military as the second pressing movement of the session for quite a while, and a couple months ago got up to 210X5 and 245X1. So I don't think military being the second lift should be an issue. Certainly, dumbbells are a much more energy system intense lift than regular flat bench, they get me sweating like flat barbell bench never could. But regardless, I'm still convinced that I would make better progress on the military pressing if I backed off the intensity a bit, and progress with adding a rep a week or so to 1 or 2 sets out of 3-4 work sets, and slowly ratchet the whole thing up. Then, of course, I'll have the occasional intensification where I will drop reps, add weight and attempt to set some intensity PRs.

[MISSINGLINK]

Upper, Workload/Hypertrophy, 8/15/2007

Weight: 257
Workout Time: 105 minutes

1. Flat Dumbbell Bench Press
10 X 60's
6 X 75's
6 X 95's

6 X 115's
6 X 120's
8 X 115's
8 X 115's
13 X 100's

2. Chins
10 X Rack
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
1, 2, 3 X BW + 8
8 X Rack

3. Seated Barbell Military Press
10 X Bar
5 X 135
3 X 155
1 X 185

4 X 200
5 X 185
6 X 155

4. Cybex Rear Delt/Row
12 X 13 (on the stack, 20LBS each)
12 X 15
12 X 16
alternated with
5. Pushups
12 X BW + 25
12 X BW + 35
12 X BW + 25

6. Situps
12 X BW + 22
12 X BW + 22
12 X BW + 22

7. Supermans

8. Bridges

9. Sledge Hammer Levering Work

Comments
Decent tonight.

Dumbbell bench was feeling a bit taxing on my shoulders. Like, I think I need to be tucking my elbows a bit more and contracting my upper back more, like I was doing a regular bench. It seems difficult to do because you have to control the dumbbells, lay down, get them in position, and do it all in the most energy efficient way. And then, on top of that, gotta consider the proper form issues. Need to work on it. I thought I might have more with the 120's, and I think I would have, except my form issues were making that set feel not so great.

On the military pressing, I think things are actually going backwards here. I believe I've been pushing at too high an intensity. So I'm going to back off the weight a bit and start doing the add a rep to a lighter set thing, till I can up the weight 5-10 pounds and then drop reps a little and go again.

Very happy with the chin ladders.

Got lots of good rehab/prehab work in at the end.

VM


Solid workout as always VikingMan. How much is the weight differential between seated and standing military + or -?

[VikingMan]

Solid workout as always VikingMan. How much is the weight differential between seated and standing military + or -?
I'm not really sure. When I used to do standing military, I got up to 195X5. I then took rather a long time away from any military pressing (not a good thing). Here with my recent resurgence of using a military, I've gotten to 210X5. So. I guess I don't see a whole lot of difference in the poundages used, but I'd say there is some.

[Misanthrope]

Great job yet again on the DB pressing. Flat DB is a bit awkward for me, too, getting set up. If I start off with a funky hand positioning or something, I either have to do all of my reps that way, or put the DBs down and start all over again. I've been known to finish an entire set with the skin on my palm pinched together from an awkward hand placement, lol.

Those chins are coming right along. ;)

[Kyle]

Nice job on the training, how is the lower back issues coming along Viking?

Kyle

[VikingMan]

Great job yet again on the DB pressing. Flat DB is a bit awkward for me, too, getting set up. If I start off with a funky hand positioning or something, I either have to do all of my reps that way, or put the DBs down and start all over again. I've been known to finish an entire set with the skin on my palm pinched together from an awkward hand placement, lol.

Those chins are coming right along. ;)
Yeah, dumbbells can be a pain in the ass. For the most part, I really like them. I never should have gotten so far away from them.

The chins felt pretty good last night. I'll bump the weight to 10LBS next week, and shoot for a 7 rep set this Sunday. Limiting the ROM at the bottom has made all the difference.


Nice job on the training, how is the lower back issues coming along Viking?

Kyle

Good. I'm thinking the tightness MAY be diminishing. I've stepped up the pace on the SMR and the core work a little. Doing more ab work and more low intensity PC work. I think it might be having an impact. JShrek told me that I likely have a sprained ligament, and that it simply needs time. Though he did also tell me the obvious, that I should probably see a doctor as well, rounding under 510LBS. :eek:

I've located some orthopedic doctors who have a private practice here in Colorado Springs that also work for the Olympic Training Center. They're the type I want to see. I'll be contacting them next week. See what it takes to get an appointment. My insurance may require a referral from a primary care physician, but I don't think I actually have one, so that could complicate things. I may have to find one of those first, THEN get him to refer me to the doctor I do want to see, then go see him.

[Kyle]

Yeah, dumbbells can be a pain in the ass. For the most part, I really like them. I never should have gotten so far away from them.

The chins felt pretty good last night. I'll bump the weight to 10LBS next week, and shoot for a 7 rep set this Sunday. Limiting the ROM at the bottom has made all the difference.



Good. I'm thinking the tightness MAY be diminishing. I've stepped up the pace on the SMR and the core work a little. Doing more ab work and more low intensity PC work. I think it might be having an impact. JShrek told me that I likely have a sprained ligament, and that it simply needs time. Though he did also tell me the obvious, that I should probably see a doctor as well, rounding under 510LBS. :eek:

I've located some orthopedic doctors who have a private practice here in Colorado Springs that also work for the Olympic Training Center. They're the type I want to see. I'll be contacting them next week. See what it takes to get an appointment. My insurance may require a referral from a primary care physician, but I don't think I actually have one, so that could complicate things. I may have to find one of those first, THEN get him to refer me to the doctor I do want to see, then go see him.

Good job.. I'm glad to see you spoke to Jerry about that, he's a very valuable source with stuff like that.

Lets see what the doctor concludes with you and lets see some rehabiliation take place so you can get back to heavy back work.

Kyle

[VikingMan]

Lowerbody Weights + Arms, 8/17/2007

Weight: 257
Workout Time: 60 minutes

1. Barbell Complex (1 rep = hang clean to a front squat to a push press, 60 seconds rest between sets)
5 X Bar
5 X 95
5 X 95
5 X 95
5 X 95
5 X 95

2. 1 Arm Barbell Curls
5 X 45
5 X 50
5 X 57.5
8 X 50
8 X 50
alternated with
3. Rope Pressdowns
5 sets

4. Sumo Deadlifts
10 X 135

+ SMR & stretching

Comments
I made the mistake tonight of looking at Lencho's body space, and seeing his powerlifting vid of a 605LB deadlift. Damn I wanna be doing heavy lower body work. It's playing with my head.

Weight loss has kinda stalled. I've been eating a few more carbs. I'll get it dialed down here shortly and get my ass nearer to 250LBS.

Decent tonight. Though certainly not what I'd like to be doing.

VM

[VikingMan]

Upper, Intensity, 8/19/2007

Weight: 256
Workout Time: 120 minutes

1. Flat Barbell Bench Press (index finger on power ring :eek: )
12 X Bar
8 X 135
8 X 185
5 X 225
1 X 245

5 X 265
5 X 275
4 X 285 ---> missed the 5th rep

2. Chins
10 X Rack

6 X BW
4 X BW
4 X BW
4 X BW

1 X BW (singles done for concentric speed/explosiveness)
1 X BW
1 X BW

3. Low Incline Dumbbell Bench Press
5 X 95's

7 X 110's
8 X 105's
9 X 105's
12 X 85's

4. Hang Cleans
3 X Bar
3 X 95

3 X 115
3 X 115
3 X 115
3 X 115
3 X 115

5. Seated Barbell Military (Middle finger on power ring)
10 X Bar
5 X 95
5 X 135
4 X 155
8 X 135

6. Light Dumbbell Curls
3 sets of 10
alternated with
7. Rope Pressdowns
3 sets of 12

8. Internal, External, Cuban Rotations

9. Decline Situps
10 X BW + 25
10 X BW + 25
10 X BW + 25

Comments
Interesting session. Couple important developments. I went ahead and tried an index finger on the power ring grip for flat bench. Resistance curve felt MUCH more even than what it normally feels like. Normally, the bottom feels easy on a bench, and somewhere around the middle gets harder. That would indicate that my grip is too narrow and that the lift is too triceps intensive. These actually didn't hurt my wrists. I think the sledge hammer levering is working. Thanks to Moz for suggesting it. And, I was a good bit stronger today than I have been in recent weeks. Though I still missed the 5th rep of the 285 set. But, given how even the resistance curve feels, it almost feels like progress will be much easier to make. This is an interesting development.

On the incline DB. I think I need to drop weight a tad on these. I attempted to get an 8th rep with the first set of 110's, and missed it. So, I'll do some higher reps with the 105's for a while.

I decided to toss in some hang cleans. Though, I believe my form on these is more like a hang power clean. I'm not dropping way down into the hole to catch the weight. This will be cool. Another back (ish) intense movement that I can be progressive with. At the top though, my shoulder/elbow flexibility isn't any where near enough to allow the weight to rest on my shoulders/clavicle. Bar is a good inch or two above them. Not sure if that's a deal killer for the movement. If anyone familiar with clean/power cleans technique could advise me, I'd appreciate it. I'll take some vids next time I do these so I can get some critiquing.

Kethnaab once said that if he added 5LBS to his military, he added 5LBS to his bench. I have wondered about that statement, as I've added 15LBS to my 5RM on military pressing, and nothing to my bench. I asked kethnaab about his form, and it turns out his form is COMPLETELY different than mine. My form on military is bar to clavicle, index finger an inch from smooth. So, almost a close grip military with a very long ROM. And I got to 210X5 like that. Decided to see what a wide grip military felt like today (though I was certainly already quite fatigued). They felt like a whole different lift. Can definitely feel these in my delts a ton more than any other military pressing I've ever done. I'll need to give them a shot on Wednesday to see how they really feel, as my rotators didn't seem to like these too much today. Probably just that I had done plenty of delt work in the session already. Also, I'll only be dropping the bar to my nose/chin (ish) area on these. If these end up working out okay, they should have a greater carryover to my bench.

Due to several form changes to some existing lifts, and the inclusion of dumbbells, my joints are a little cranky at the moment. I'm think they just need to get used to the new movements, and that some of the stabilizers need to beef up. So, I'll probably not get super crazy with the poundages for a while, till I settle into this new groove.

Back has felt slightly less tight over the last 3 or so days. I'm trying to not get excited. But, things might be looking up.

VM

[Misanthrope]

Kethnaab once said that if he added 5LBS to his military, he added 5LBS to his bench. I have wondered about that statement, as I've added 15LBS to my 5RM on military pressing, and nothing to my bench. I asked kethnaab about his form, and it turns out his form is COMPLETELY different than mine. My form on military is bar to clavicle, index finger an inch from smooth. So, almost a close grip military with a very long ROM. And I got to 210X5 like that. Decided to see what a wide grip military felt like today (though I was certainly already quite fatigued). They felt like a whole different lift. Can definitely feel these in my delts a ton more than any other military pressing I've ever done. I'll need to give them a shot on Wednesday to see how they really feel, as my rotators didn't seem to like these too much today. Probably just that I had done plenty of delt work in the session already. Also, I'll only be dropping the bar to my nose/chin (ish) area on these. If these end up working out okay, they should have a greater carryover to my bench.

Wow, I didn't know your grip was that narrow for military press. My grip is about as wide as my bench grip.

[VikingMan]

Wow, I didn't know your grip was that narrow for military press. My grip is about as wide as my bench grip.

Yeah, my grip has never been that wide. Always been considerably narrower than my bench grip. Now that my wrists are getting stronger and more accustomed to the wider stuff, I think that may assist my goals of progress.

[MISSINGLINK]

Very strong session VikingMan. Interesting comments about the military pressing. I keep my hands about the width that I do for the bench. For me, adding 5lbs to the military does not add 5lbs to the bench.

[Lifting N Tx]

If anyone familiar with clean/power cleans technique could advise me, I'd appreciate it. I'll take some vids next time I do these so I can get some critiquing.

Here's what I posted in Dave's Starting Strength thread on bb.com:


Dave has been through this, and I've only read about Rippetoe's method in Starting Strength, but from reading he starts teaching the power clean with the trainee in the hang position. Arms straight, knees bent a little, back extended, bar on mid-thigh. You learn to "jump" and catch the bar at your shoulders. When you can do that well, including catching it properly racked with elbows forward, you do the next step. Start from the hang, do a reverse Romanian deadlift to just below the knees. Using hip extension only, return to the hang position and do the "jump" to rack the bar.

Once that is down you can try all the way from the floor. In a nutshell, the power clean starts like a deadlift where you bring the bar to knee level with your legs, then from the knees to the hang position is like a Romanian DL using hip, not leg extension. Then, from the hang position it's like a "jump" with the bar.

I've now probably confused the heck out of everyone. If I have and you have Starting Strength it's described in amazing detail much better than I can do. Dave doesn't like to pimp SS, but I don't know Rippetoe, so I can. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Dave indicated that this was indeed how Rippetoe teaches it, adding that this part:
Start from the hang, do a reverse Romanian deadlift to just below the knees. Using hip extension only, return to the hang position and do the "jump" to rack the bar.
was taught with an empty bar.

On the military presses, I tend to do them fairly narrow, but have been doing BHN presses and do them with index fingers outside of the power rings. Military is better for front delts, though. I prefer behind the neck because my front delts already get beat up with flat benching and I want lateral delt work from my OH pressing.

[VikingMan]

Very strong session VikingMan. Interesting comments about the military pressing. I keep my hands about the width that I do for the bench. For me, adding 5lbs to the military does not add 5lbs to the bench.
Thanks Link. Yeah, I've never done military that wide. It's always been much narrower. I'll start opening it up a bit, see if I can't find some carry over to my bench.


Here's what I posted in Dave's Starting Strength thread on bb.com:


Dave indicated that this was indeed how Rippetoe teaches it, adding that this part:
Start from the hang, do a reverse Romanian deadlift to just below the knees. Using hip extension only, return to the hang position and do the "jump" to rack the bar.
was taught with an empty bar.

On the military presses, I tend to do them fairly narrow, but have been doing BHN presses and do them with index fingers outside of the power rings. Military is better for front delts, though. I prefer behind the neck because my front delts already get beat up with flat benching and I want lateral delt work from my OH pressing.
I don't much care about the lateral delts, except to the degree that they will help in my strength goals. And, I don't think my shoulders could handle behind the neck anything. :(

Thanks for the comments guys.

[VikingMan]

Okay guys. I've now finally got an appointment with an orthopaedic sports medicine back doc. Damn appointment is in freaking October. Which, I think is a good/bad thing. Obviously I want to be seen as soon as possible, but, the waiting list tells me he's good. He was recommended to me by a big weight lifter friend of mine who has been a high school strength coach before. And, I believe this doctor has worked for the Olympic Training Center here in the Springs before. So, I doubt I'll be able to find a better doctor in town than him. I'll continue with the rehab/prehab stuff I've been doing, the SMR, the light deadlifting, the bridges and super mans, and, hopfully this weekend, I'll be putting together a homemade reverse hyper. I'll include pics and everything. Should be very cool.

Back has been feeling a little better. Hell. Maybe by the time my appointment rolls around, it'll be fixed. But, I'm still going to see the guy.

On the off chance that anyone has any specific knowledge of this guy, here's his companies web page, with his bio.

http://www.fro.com/pages/doc_mitchell.php

[r_graz]

Wow, I didn't know your grip was that narrow for military press. My grip is about as wide as my bench grip.


Yeah, my grip has never been that wide. Always been considerably narrower than my bench grip. Now that my wrists are getting stronger and more accustomed to the wider stuff, I think that may assist my goals of progress.

Wow, my OH press width is *way* narrower than my bench. I bench with my pinkies on the rings, I OH press way inside that, with my index finger maybe 1/2 to 1" onto the knurling, which for me is just outside shoulder width.

What am I missing by going that narrow? Greater ROM but too much tricep?


Okay guys. I've now finally got an appointment with an orthopaedic sports medicine back doc. Damn appointment is in freaking October.
The wait for some specialist appointments can be maddening. I've had that experience with sleep specialists, they do a sleep study, and then make you wait 3 months for an office visit to review the results. A guy could lose a lot of sleep in that amount of time.

Still, sounds like the guy knows his stuff, so you're on the right track.

[VikingMan]

What am I missing by going that narrow? Greater ROM but too much tricep?
Basically. The thought is that, if your bench grip is appropriate, the lift for a raw lifter is mostly about chest and delt strength. Triceps don't need to be abnormally strong to lock a weight out. If you get it off your chest, it should go all the way. So, given that, a wider grip on military pressing will be more beneficial in terms of it's impact on your bench because a wider grip will recruit the delts more and the triceps less than a narrower grip.

Course, you need to be careful with it. If you've never done militaries with a wide grip, probably best to slowly widen the grip to make sure it's not going to trash your shoulders to do it.

[r_graz]

Course, you need to be careful with it. If you've never done militaries with a wide grip, probably best to slowly widen the grip to make sure it's not going to trash your shoulders to do it.
That's the reason I went pretty narrow to begin with. Early last year, I had an otherwise pretty good trainer tell me "No one over the age of 35 should be doing any overhead pressing...and if you do don't go outside shoulder width or you'll be sorry". I ignored the part about not overhead pressing of course, but the w/in shoulder width part kinda stuck. Maybe I need to (carefully) reevaluate that.

[VikingMan]

That's the reason I went pretty narrow to begin with. Early last year, I had an otherwise pretty good trainer tell me "No one over the age of 35 should be doing any overhead pressing...and if you do don't go outside shoulder width or you'll be sorry". I ignored the part about not overhead pressing of course, but the w/in shoulder width part kinda stuck. Maybe I need to (carefully) reevaluate that.
Hmmm. Sounds like bullshit to me. Why can a 34 year old do overheads, and not a 35 year old? I say let the pain (or lack of) dictate what movements you do/don't use. Course, it may very well be that you can't go super wide without stressing the rotators. But, they hit the delts harder, and if you want to bench more, that may be advantageous. Widen it a finger width every 2-3 weeks. Stop when it starts making your shoulder ache and back up one. Then stick with that. At least, that's my take on it.

[Lifting N Tx]

That's the reason I went pretty narrow to begin with. Early last year, I had an otherwise pretty good trainer tell me "No one over the age of 35 should be doing any overhead pressing...and if you do don't go outside shoulder width or you'll be sorry". I ignored the part about not overhead pressing of course, but the w/in shoulder width part kinda stuck. Maybe I need to (carefully) reevaluate that.
How about someone who turned 50 this year and likes to do BHN presses full ROM from bar touching traps to lockout, plus push presses BHN the same way? Someone forgot to tell me that it was supposed to hurt my shoulders. ;)

Actually I did once tweak a shoulder doing OH presses to the front (not wide grip), but I believe it was because I got the bar too far out front, which could indeed be tough on the RC. I don't think I even stopped pressing, just was careful to warm up a lot for a time, and soon it was all better.

Edit: the BHN presses are quite wide in grip, from the front I tend to press with around a shoulder width grip.

[r_graz]

Hmmm. Sounds like bullshit to me. Why can a 34 year old do overheads, and not a 35 year old? I say let the pain (or lack of) dictate what movements you do/don't use. Course, it may very well be that you can't go super wide without stressing the rotators. But, they hit the delts harder, and if you want to bench more, that may be advantageous. Widen it a finger width every 2-3 weeks. Stop when it starts making your shoulder ache and back up one. Then stick with that. At least, that's my take on it.
Sounds like a plan. The narrow grip was just one of those things I got in the habit of doing, and stopped thinking about why I was doing it that way :o

How about someone who turned 50 this year and likes to do BHN presses full ROM from bar touching traps to lockout, plus push presses BHN the same way?
Most likely your arms are going to fall off any day now. Just a matter of time :p;)

[VikingMan]

Sounds like a plan. The narrow grip was just one of those things I got in the habit of doing, and stopped thinking about why I was doing it that way :o
Hey man, kethnaab had to say the same thing to me. That's why I'm giving them a shot with a wider grip now. I was using a just wider than shoulder width grip till a week ago (got pretty damn strong doing it that way too). So, now I'll widen it up slowly and see where it goes.

[Misanthrope]

How about someone who turned 50 this year and likes to do BHN presses full ROM from bar touching traps to lockout, plus push presses BHN the same way?
50? Who the hell would that be? :p

[Big Mike]

Early last year, I had an otherwise pretty good trainer tell me "No one over the age of 35 should be doing any overhead pressing...and if you do don't go outside shoulder width or you'll be sorry". I ignored the part about not overhead pressing of course, but the w/in shoulder width part kinda stuck. Maybe I need to (carefully) reevaluate that.
I better enjoy my last OH press workout tonight. I turn 35 on Friday.:rolleyes:

[r_graz]

I better enjoy my last OH press workout tonight. I turn 35 on Friday.:rolleyes:
Enjoy it while you can. Next week it's the pink dumbbells and step aerobics for you.
:D

[t-p-c]

Hey man, kethnaab had to say the same thing to me. That's why I'm giving them a shot with a wider grip now. I was using a just wider than shoulder width grip till a week ago (got pretty damn strong doing it that way too). So, now I'll widen it up slowly and see where it goes.

Interesting... do you know what Rip suggests in SS? Just outside shoulder width or wider?

I think I will experiment with a wider grip from now on, can't hurt. That kethnaab sure is a smart cookie.

[VikingMan]

Upper, Workload/Hypertrophy, 8/22/2007

Weight: 257
Workout Time: 120 minutes

1. Flat Dumbbell Bench Press
10 X 60's
8 X 75's
5 X 95's

8 X 115's
8 X 115's
10 X 115's
10 X 100's
10 X 100's

2. Chins (ladders)
10 X Rack
1, 2, 3 X BW + 10
1, 2, 3 X BW + 10
1, 2, 3 X BW + 10

3. Seated Barbell Military Press (pinky on power ring)
10 X Bar
5 X 135
3 X 155

4 X 185
3 X 205

10 X 155

4. Cybex Rear Delt/Row
12 X 15 (on the stack, 20LBS each)
12 X 15
12 X 15
alternated with
5. Pushups
12 X BW
15 X BW
15 X BW

6. Rope Pressdowns
2 sets
alternated with
7. Rope Curls
2 sets

8. Decline Situps (one rung on the decline ladder higher)
10 X BW
10 X BW
10 X BW
alternated with
9. Sumo Deadlifts
10 X 135
10 X 135
10 X 135

10. Internal, External, Cuban Rotations

11. Sledge Hammer Levering Work

+ SMR & Stretching

Comments
Needless to say, I almost vomited tonight. :D

I came home from a meeting last night, and fell asleep on the floor. Slept 10 hours last night, and damn did I need it. I was going to do some of my lower body rehab(ish) work last two nights, but something got in the way both nights, so I did some situps and deads tonight. Was running out of time at the gym though, so I super setted them, and did the whole thing in like 10 minutes. *barf*

Dumbbell bench felt beautiful. I think I've got the grove sorted on those. I'll shoot for 9, 9, 10 X 115's next week. Then 3X10 the week after. If I get both of those, I'll hit up the 120's the week after that. Might need a deload in there sometime though. I'll play that by ear.

I also think I've got the grove figured out on the wider grip military pressing. It still bothers my shoulder just a tad. I said I wouldn't get crazy with the poundages, but I couldn't help myself. Now that I know roughly where my strength is on these, I'll sort out a set/rep scheme that's appropriate and start that next week. The way kethnaab said to do them, it almost feels like a very high incline bench press(very, very high mind you). But, it feels like it's targeting the delts unlike anything I've ever used before.

Damn stuff started hurting again today. :mad: I think that's why I did so well in the gym. Odd. But I was so pissed off about it, I was determined to have a great session. I should get pissed off before a workout more often.

Pretty happy all around.


VM

[VikingMan]

Interesting... do you know what Rip suggests in SS? Just outside shoulder width or wider?

I think I will experiment with a wider grip from now on, can't hurt. That kethnaab sure is a smart cookie.

I don't remember what Rip says in starting strength. My copy is in a storage unit right now, so I can't read it. You could always ask him in his forum here. I'd be quite curious to see what he says.

And yes, Kethnaab is a pretty smart guy. He's got a TON of real world experience to draw from, so he should be. He's always been pretty big and strong, and since he's in the military, the guys he works with are always asking him for help in the gym. And he does it cause he's a nice guy. Kinda like his own private group of lab rats. I'm jealous. :D

[Misanthrope]

Great session, V-Man. Awesome poundages and reppages on the DB presses. Everything else looked strong too. Nicely done.

[r_graz]

Needless to say, I almost vomited tonight. :D
And without any help from Smolov, no less :D

Incredible volume and poundages. Nice.

[Lifting N Tx]

All I can say is that's an awful lot of work. I think I'd sleep another 10 hours after something like that.

[VikingMan]

Great session, V-Man. Awesome poundages and reppages on the DB presses. Everything else looked strong too. Nicely done.


And without any help from Smolov, no less :D

Incredible volume and poundages. Nice.


All I can say is that's an awful lot of work. I think I'd sleep another 10 hours after something like that.

Thanks guys. It was a very good session. Lately, my back has always been feeling a little better when I actually work it. So that is encouraging.

Body weight is up to 258.

[VikingMan]

Lower Conditioning, 8/24/2007

Weight: 258
Workout Time: 25 minutes

1. Barbell Complex (1 rep = hang clean to a front squat to a push press, 60 seconds rest between sets)
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89

2. Deadlifts
10 X 135 (sumo)
10 X 135 (conventional)
10 X 135 (conventional)
alternated with
3. Pushups
20
20
20

+ SMR & Stretching

Comments
Pretty good stuff tonight. Sweating like a pig.

Though my left shoulder wasn't liking some of it. It needed it anyway. Get some lactic acid and active stretching going.

Hopefully it'll be good for Sunday's bench session. I might pop some ibuprofen between now and then.

VM

[Knowles]

Lower Conditioning, 8/24/2007

Weight: 258
Workout Time: 25 minutes

1. Barbell Complex (1 rep = hang clean to a front squat to a push press, 60 seconds rest between sets)
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89
5 X 89

2. Deadlifts
10 X 135 (sumo)
10 X 135 (conventional)
10 X 135 (conventional)
alternated with
3. Pushups
20
20
20

+ SMR & Stretching

Comments
Pretty good stuff tonight. Sweating like a pig.

Though my left shoulder wasn't liking some of it. It needed it anyway. Get some lactic acid and active stretching going.

Hopefully it'll be good for Sunday's bench session. I might pop some ibuprofen between now and then.

VM

Cool man. You doing this as a form of weight loss? I'm not sure what your goals are at the moment.

I take an advil before every workout or else I can't make it through. It works really well.

[VikingMan]

Cool man. You doing this as a form of weight loss? I'm not sure what your goals are at the moment.

I take an advil before every workout or else I can't make it through. It works really well.

There are a couple goals with these workouts in particular

1. Weight management (though I'm more or less consciously maintaining at the moment after having lost 15-20LBS)
2. Back rehab & lower body work (not deadlifting or squatting heavy at the moment due to back issues)
3. Conditioning/work capacity

My biggest short term goals are

1. Increase benching & chinning strength
2. Continue slowly recomping
3. Get my back, back into heavy deadlifting/squatting shape

[Misanthrope]

Nice session, Vike. Glad to see the light deadlifting is going well. Hopefully this shoulder thing doesn't get out of hand.

[VikingMan]

Last few workouts...

Upper Strength, 8/26/2007

Weight: 258
Workout Time: 60 minutes

1. Flat Barbell Bench Press (index finger on power ring)
10 X Bar
8 X 135
8 X 185
5 X 225
2 X 245

5 X 275 ---> Didn't feel that fabulous on my left shoulder

8 X 225 ---> Ring finger on power ring
10 X 225 ---> ditto

2. Shoulder Prehab - Internal, External, & Cuban Rotations

3. Chins
10 X Rack
4 X BW
4 X BW
4 X BW
4 X BW

4. Flat Dumbbell Bench
30 X 50's

Comments
I don't think the shoulder is serious, but I do think it needs a little time. Damn wide grip military pressing. :mad: It should be fine in a week or two. Feels muscular actually. The tender spot is RIGHT on top of the bone where the delts attach on top of the shoulder.

I was going to do another set at 275, then a third set of 5 at 280. I think I had a little inhibition going. The set at 275 felt pretty heavy.
Cut the session short after that.

*sigh*

What can you say?

VM

[VikingMan]

Conditioning, Prehab/Rehab, 8/27/2007

Weight: 256
Workout Time: 60 minutes

1. Sled Dragging
130LB Sled X 20 minutes (1 breather)

2. Body Weight Squats
20
20
20
alternated with
3. Standing Barbell Military Press (very close grip ;) )
20 X Bar
20 X Bar
20 X Bar

4. Situps
15 X BW
15 X BW
15 X BW

5. Sledge Hammer Levering

+ SMR & Stretching

Comments
Lotsa fun tonight. I've decided my sled is no longer heavy enough. Last few times I've gone out, it's been way to damn light. I think the barbell complexes have REALLY improved my overall conditioning level. The stairs at work don't get me nearly as winded as they used to. The complexes seem MORE effective for conditioning purposes than the sled even does. I saw a Elite Fitness video the other day where Dave Tate was asking Wendler what the best way to loose fat was, and he said barbell complexes. If you guys aren't doing those, now is a good time to start. They absolutely kick ass for conditioning purposes.

Levering was cool. Forearms pumped to hell. Feel like Popeye. :D

Military was to get some lactic acid to the shoulder and felt pretty good. I'll be taking some ibuprofen and Cissus again, try to get this fixed as soon as possible. Though, I'm determined not to do anything heavy until this too has passed. WTF?!?! Only heavy damn thing I'll be doing for a while are freaking chins. :(

VM

[VikingMan]

Nice session, Vike. Glad to see the light deadlifting is going well. Hopefully this shoulder thing doesn't get out of hand.
Dear Lord me too. :(

[Lifting N Tx]

You've about got me convinced to do some of those complexes. I'm getting tired of dieting and probably need to add something besides more calorie reduction to finish the job so that I can be done with it.

On the subject of your military pressing, is there any chance that you're getting the bar too far out in front? Rippetoe talks about almost hitting your nose in Starting Strength. The one time that I tweaked a shoulder with pressing wasn't from my BHN stuff, but from regular OH pressing. I think it was because I got the bar too far out front and probably irritated a RC.

[VikingMan]

You've about got me convinced to do some of those complexes. I'm getting tired of dieting and probably need to add something besides more calorie reduction to finish the job so that I can be done with it.

On the subject of your military pressing, is there any chance that you're getting the bar too far out in front? Rippetoe talks about almost hitting your nose in Starting Strength. The one time that I tweaked a shoulder with pressing wasn't from my BHN stuff, but from regular OH pressing. I think it was because I got the bar too far out front and probably irritated a RC.
Possibly. Though really, the only real difference that I made in the exact time frame that this started happening was the wider grip on seated military.

Complexes do rock. They kick my ass unlike anything I've ever done. If you really want to puke, do them tabata style. :eek: